WhatIf: Incarnum was used to fix the Vow of Poverty?

[Andorax]

Just speculating here...opinions most welcome.

The greatest flaw levied against the Vow of Poverty is that it's missing a series of "crucial" abilities high-level characters need to have, and non-casters have to rely on magic items to obtain (well, that or buff spells from friendly casters, but that's aside).

If Incarnum were fluffed as being specifically good-aligned (and necrocarnum accordingly vile), and Vow of Poverty-granted bonus feats could be spent on Incarnum feats, in particular Shape Soulmeld, would it go a fair ways towards solving the flaws of the Vow?

[Darius Kane]

I dunno, but it's still a great idea.

[Medic!]

The only real issue I ever had with VoP was that you get TONS of bonus feats with (sometimes literally) nothing to spend them on. Anything that expands on the scope of the bonus exalted feats would be amazing.

[eggs]

Tentatively, I think it would be reasonable balance-wise. Maybe not in the Druid's case, but that's more a problem with the Druid.

I would say it makes Incarnum's fluff seem far less stupid to me to be "divinely granted pseudo-gear" given to a particularly pious and charitable character than "souls that look like ghost-jewelry," so I like that aspect.

[Draz74]

It would certainly help, but probably not quite enough.

Let's go through Ernir's List of Necessary Items and see:

Flight
Incarnum can provide this, although not with great flight speeds or maneuverabilities. Still ... sure, with Airstep Sandals at low levels and Pegasus Cloak at higher levels, you're doing OK. Especially if you can retrain the Airstep Sandals once you don't need them anymore.

Immunity to Mind-Affecting
I don't think any Soulmeld can provide full Mind Blank-equivalent protection, and if it can, I think it's a Heart or Soul chakra ability -- which can't be accessed by feats.

Stun/Daze Negation
I don't recall offhand if any soulmelds give you stun negation. Or dazed negation.

Fear Immunity
This is a sub-category of Mind-Affecting Immunity. I can't remember offhand how Incarnum can provide this, but I'm pretty sure it can.

True Seeing
VoP gives you this anyway, although not until a few levels after casters get it. Incarnum can give you pieces of this -- I'm pretty sure you can get See Invisibility, for example -- but I don't think Incarnum gives you full True Seeing without Heart/Soul chakra access.

Miss Chances
Soulmelds can give you a miss chance, but only in specific circumstances (like "against ranged attacks," to name one of the less-pathetic examples) or maybe via concealment (which is easier to negate than other miss chances). I think the only real, decent miss chance in the MoI book is a class feature of Umbral Disciple, which can't be duplicated by feats. Still, miss chance against ranged attacks is ... a start.

Tactical Teleportation
Blink Shirt. Not as good as a collection of Anklets of Translocation ... but it gets the job done, and at-will to boot. Next!

Immunity to Death Effects/Energy Drain/etc.
I don't think Soulmelds give you these immunities without Heart/Soul Chakras. But I could be remembering wrong.

Freedom of Movement
VoP gives you this -- but only at very high levels. I don't think Incarnum improves the situation.

Extradimensional Storage Space
Meh. Vow of Poverty characters don't need this.

Initiative Boosts
I think Incarnum can do this pretty well, although I haven't paid much attention to such soulmelds.

Special Senses (e.g. blindsight, tremorsense)
I suspect there are some soulmelds that grant blindsense, but I don't think any grant blindsight, like Blindfold of True Darkness does (economically).

[sonofzeal]

I approve! Incarnum and VoP already synergize fairly well. I'd love to take a Vivcarnate (good-aligned Necrocarnate; see the adaption section) with this variant.

[Arcanist]

I approve! Incarnum and VoP already synergize fairly well. I'd love to take a Vivcarnate (good-aligned Necrocarnate; see the adaption section) with this variant.

I'm curious what you have in mind here :smallconfused:

[sonofzeal]

I'm curious what you have in mind here :smallconfused:
By this variant, you could spend a lot of feats getting more essentia and a few Expanded Soulmeld Capacity's. And Vivicarnate is something I've always wanted to try, and would dovetail beautifully with the exaltedness of VoP. Not to mention the inherent synergy between a system that interferes with normal item use, and one that prevents normal item use.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's elaborate shall we.

It would certainly help, but probably not quite enough.

Let's go through Ernir's List of Necessary Items and see:

Flight
Incarnum can provide this, although not with great flight speeds or maneuverabilities. Still ... sure, with Airstep Sandals at low levels and Pegasus Cloak at higher levels, you're doing OK. Especially if you can retrain the Airstep Sandals once you don't need them anymore.
You nailed this one.

Immunity to Mind-Affecting
I don't think any Soulmeld can provide full Mind Blank-equivalent protection, and if it can, I think it's a Heart or Soul chakra ability -- which can't be accessed by feats. Enigma helm gives an always on non-detection regardless of being bound to a chakra, and when bound negates enchantment (charm) effects altogether. It's not full on mindblank but it's nothing to sneeze at. Planar ward gives you protection from X at all times minus the AC bonus without being bound. Between the two that's awful close to equaling mindblank.


Stun/Daze Negation
I don't recall offhand if any soulmelds give you stun negation. Or dazed negation.
Indeed the only stunning immunity is granted by a necrocarnum meld and it has to be bound to the heart.

Fear Immunity
This is a sub-category of Mind-Affecting Immunity. I can't remember offhand how Incarnum can provide this, but I'm pretty sure it can.
If it's there I'm not seeing it.

True Seeing
VoP gives you this anyway, although not until a few levels after casters get it. Incarnum can give you pieces of this -- I'm pretty sure you can get See Invisibility, for example -- but I don't think Incarnum gives you full True Seeing without Heart/Soul chakra access. Keeneye lenses get you see invisibility when bound to the brow, and trueseeing when bound to the soul. You nailed this one, my friend.


Miss Chances
Soulmelds can give you a miss chance, but only in specific circumstances (like "against ranged attacks," to name one of the less-pathetic examples) or maybe via concealment (which is easier to negate than other miss chances). I think the only real, decent miss chance in the MoI book is a class feature of Umbral Disciple, which can't be duplicated by feats. Still, miss chance against ranged attacks is ... a start.
Displacer mantle bound to the shoulders gives you the effect of the blur spell, and the fellmist robe grants concealment of varying degree against anyone not immediately adjacent with no bind, provided that the wind is less than strong.

Tactical Teleportation
Blink Shirt. Not as good as a collection of Anklets of Translocation ... but it gets the job done, and at-will to boot. Next!
Nailed it again, but you missed the feet bound cerulean sandals. 10ft per meldshaper level per day divided into as many 10ft increments as you like.

Immunity to Death Effects/Energy Drain/etc.
I don't think Soulmelds give you these immunities without Heart/Soul Chakras. But I could be remembering wrong.
Paudrons of health give immunity to energy drain if bound to the shoulders, and immunity to disease and the sickened and nauseated conditions regardless. Strongheart vest gives immunity to energy drain and death effects when bound to the heart. Necrocarnum vestments get you immunity to stunning and death effects when bound to the heart. One out of three for the energy drain at least.

Freedom of Movement
VoP gives you this -- but only at very high levels. I don't think Incarnum improves the situation.
I'm not seeing this one either.

Extradimensional Storage Space
Meh. Vow of Poverty characters don't need this.Agreed.


Initiative Boosts
I think Incarnum can do this pretty well, although I haven't paid much attention to such soulmelds.Blue steel bracers nailed this one. Insight bonus to initiative and if you bind to your arms you share the bonus with your buddies as long as they're within 30ft.


Special Senses (e.g. blindsight, tremorsense)
I suspect there are some soulmelds that grant blindsense, but I don't think any grant blindsight, like Blindfold of True Darkness does (economically).

Shadow mantle bound to the shoulders lets you get a wierd affect. For a swift action you shroud a 5ft per essentia invested area in utter darkness and gain blindsight to the same distance. It's another swift to deactivate. You get blindsight at the same time you blind everyone that doesn't have it.

Then there's the landshark boots that give you almost tremor sense, in a move action to pinpoint every creature within 10 +5/essentia feet, that's touching the ground.

The best option though, is the shedu crown bound to the crown chakra. Telepathy to 100ft makes mindsight a possibility. Though this particular version of telepathy is listed as mind-affecting and won't allow you to bypass mindblank like mindsight normally would.

It's not everything, and I didn't include any soulmelds that may have been printed in magazines, but it's pretty good coverage.

[AmberVael]

I don't know that it would fix all of Vow of Poverty's flaws, but it would be head and shoulders above the original, especially by making it far more interesting.

In fact, I'd go a step further and say that by making Incarnum an add on to other classes Incarnum would be improved too. I love the system, but I've always thought that its biggest flaw was that it didn't really give a solid chassis for its abilities. Incarnum is good at improving your capability to do something, or adding on other capabilities, but all on its own it's a bit weird and when it comes to combat builds and the like it can be very one note. If you could use a vow of poverty type mechanic to add Incarnum to another class though... that would be awesome.


Also, daze/stun immunity can actually be had through the Incarnate Avatar soul bind if you're lawful. So it's kinda hard to get, but flat out daze immunity is pretty awesome. It also prevents paralysis, slow, and petrification, and you get that +1 insight to attack rolls for every essentia. It is by far the best version of Incarnate Avatar and well worth looking at.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Incarnum was, like everything else, balanced against a certain expected power level that is noticeably lower than the average power level discussed on these boards.

The biggest problem most classes have is that the level of power everything was balanced against is also noticeably lower than a handful of very powerful options that have become -very- well known, and way lower than the level vancian casters actually reach with mid-level optimization.

Incarnum works really well and is plenty competetive with anything else at the expected power level. It's also pretty interesting in how different it is from everything else in 3.5.

VoP was balanced toward that lower level of power the designers were aiming at, but it was also made with the notion that anyone who would choose it was more interested in roleplaying than power, and as such gives only the bare minimum to actually achieve the base-line expected level of power.

That's right, the designers actually used the stormwind fallacy, under the assumption that it wasn't fallacious, as a factor in designing the feat. probably not the -best- choice they ever made. :smallamused:

Incidentally, meldshapers work really well with VoP, as long as you're okay with being either a good incarnate or a totemist.

[Andorax]

So it seems the general consensus is that while not a perfect solution, it does cover a lot of the ground with decently good flavor besides.

Sounds like a prospective winner...with the further virtue of being simple and easy to articulate, rather than a several-page solution.

[Darius Kane]

Why not allow to take any feat?

[Psyren]

Why not allow to take any feat?

Psionics would LOVE that. :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Lawful Incarnate Avatar bound to Soul chakra makes you immune to daze, paralysis, petrification, and stun as well as any magical effect that would Slow you.

In general, an Incarnate or Totemist is hurt less by VoP because they can cover many of their bases with various binds.

Templates or racial choices can also grant immunities. For example, many of the 'necessary' immunities can be picked up as a Warforged. Necropolitian grants even more, but that would be rather difficult to pass off as 'Exalted'.

[danzibr]

With this fix it'd be interesting to see a build for like a VoP Warforged Totemist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

With this fix it'd be interesting to see a build for like a VoP Warforged Totemist.

With this "fix" totemist would be redundant, unless you've just got to have totem binds.

[danzibr]

With this "fix" totemist would be redundant, unless you've just got to have totem binds.
Well, you can pick up non-Totemist stuff, and a number of other useful Incarnum feats, freeing up your regular feats for other things like Multiattack and whatnot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, you can pick up non-Totemist stuff, and a number of other useful Incarnum feats, freeing up your regular feats for other things like Multiattack and whatnot.

I didn't say it wouldn't be interesting, just that it'd be redundant.

If the feat's getting you incarnum and the race is giving you immunities then you should pick a class that does something different to avoid redundancy.

Redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind. Most automobiles have at least one redundancy in their electric systems, and aircraft have at least 3 for all critical systems.

I think maybe a warlock would be interesting. At will utility and blasting from class, immunities from race, and numerical bonuses from the incarnum enhanced VoP. Yeah, that sounds interesting.

[Qwertystop]

Also, it gives you more Essentia. That's always good.


I've got to wonder if a Totemist would make VoP work. Not Incarnate, thought, because of the alignment limit and BoED's stupid idea that Lawful Good is more Good than any other Good.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also, it gives you more Essentia. That's always good.


I've got to wonder if a Totemist would make VoP work. Not Incarnate, thought, because of the alignment limit and BoED's stupid idea that Lawful Good is more Good than any other Good.

I haven't read the entirety of BoED in a while, but I don't remember getting the impression that law was favored over chaos or ethical neutrality.

May I ask what gives you that impression?

[Darius Kane]

Paladins. Nuff' said.

[Psyren]

I've got to wonder if a Totemist would make VoP work. Not Incarnate, thought, because of the alignment limit and BoED's stupid idea that Lawful Good is more Good than any other Good.

Honestly, I get the impression that lots of the folks who bash BoED have yet to actually read it.

To wit:


Lawful good characters by no means have a monopoly on goodness. Though all paladins are lawful good, plenty of exalted characters of all character classes are chaotic good or neutral good, and they exemplify the ideals of good in the D&D universe no less than the paladin.


All of the prestige classes share the high moral standards of the paladin (though not all require characters to be lawful good—neutral good and chaotic good characters are no less virtuous.)

[Person_Man]

I have already come out with my take on this general concept, the Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094).

I basically gave the Totemist full BAB, d12 hit die, more soulmelds and chakra binds, 50% more essentia, the Soul chakra slot, Spell & Power Resistance (which can't be lowered), Fast Healing, a natural armor bonus, damage reduction, ability score bonus, Slippery Mind, Antimagic Field, and a few bonus Feats. I also made the poverty rules more flexible - you can't use anything and must donate or destroy your share of treasure, but what you Sunder counts towards this amount.

Myself and a few other playgrounders play tested it, with good results. It was nice to not have to worry about equipment or magic items in any way, and it definitely had plenty to do both in and out of combat. But magic items grant a huge amount of flexibility and "escape hatches" (magic items which allow you to win or at least flee combat, like Dust of Sneezing or anything that grants flight when your enemies can't fly), which any Vow of Poverty build will lack.

I'd be interested in any further thoughts on the class, if people have them.

[danzibr]

Oh yeah... I saw the Forsaker Totemist before. Looks totally awesome. In fact, I would totally play one/let my players play one.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't say it wouldn't be interesting, just that it'd be redundant.

If the feat's getting you incarnum and the race is giving you immunities then you should pick a class that does something different to avoid redundancy.

Redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind. Most automobiles have at least one redundancy in their electric systems, and aircraft have at least 3 for all critical systems.

I think maybe a warlock would be interesting. At will utility and blasting from class, immunities from race, and numerical bonuses from the incarnum enhanced VoP. Yeah, that sounds interesting.

You can't get bind slots from feats, just opens the chakra to permit binding. Nor can you open the Totem chakra with a feat. You're gonna need at least some levels to get the basics. Totemist2 at a minimum, for the Totem chakra.

Besides, you get a lot better things than immunities from Incarnum, that's where you're picking up Flight, Teleport, Initiative bonuses, etc...

[Kelb_Panthera]

My understanding of the open chakra feats was that, by opening it with the feat, you could bind a soulmeld or magic item to that chakra, regardless of having levels in a meldshaping class.

If that's wrong, the feats are worthless to any non-meldshaping class that might consider taking them.

[Person_Man]

...the feats are worthless to any non-meldshaping class that might consider taking them.

Sadly, I believe that is the RAW and Cust Serv answer. Thus, you need at least 2 levels of Incarnate or Totemist in order to gain a chakra bind, and the Feats simply allow you to open up higher level binds.


It sucks. But it is somewhat understandable though. If you allow the Feats to grant extra chakra binds (as I do), then just 2 Feats can grant you some extremely potent abilities, especially at higher levels.

[eggs]

Sadly, I believe that is the RAW and Cust Serv answer. Thus, you need at least 2 levels of Incarnate or Totemist in order to gain a chakra bind, and the Feats simply allow you to open up higher level binds. I won't argue that CustServ said that, but I'm doubtful about RAW.

I've looked through the Soulmeld section a couple times, but I don't see anything contradicting the phrase "You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra" outside the Incarnate or Totemist class abilities.

Granted, I may be missing something, but it looks pretty clear that something like a level 6 Fighter or Wizard with an Open Chakra feat "can ... bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra."

But weirdly enough, I could see the argument that a Fighter 5/Incarnate 1 with the Open Chakra feat couldn't bind anything, because its class ability and the feat description would directly clash.

[ThiagoMartell]

Excellent suggestion is excellent

[Draz74]

Let's elaborate shall we.
Yes, I appreciate someone covering for my lack of expertise. :smallsmile:


Enigma helm gives an always on non-detection regardless of being bound to a chakra, and when bound negates enchantment (charm) effects altogether. It's not full on mindblank but it's nothing to sneeze at. Planar ward gives you protection from X at all times minus the AC bonus without being bound. Between the two that's awful close to equaling mindblank.
Here I have to disagree. There's a surprising amount of Mind-Affecting stuff besides Charm/Compulsion effects out there, which optimized characters rely on Mind Blank to block. The easiest way to find examples is to take a gander through the Psionic Powers. Ego Whip, Psychic Crush, Recall Agony/Death? Yeah. Lots of Mind-Affecting stuff beyond the Enchantment school.

Not to mention that Nondetection isn't really very good protection against divinations. Especially because it's caster level-dependent ... and if the Enigma Helm works off of your meldshaper level, that's not going to be significant protection at all for a non-meldshaper who picks up the Helm via feats.


Indeed the only stunning immunity is granted by a necrocarnum meld and it has to be bound to the heart.
Or Incarnate Avatar (Lawful), evidently. Thanks, Shneekey. But both of these options are, strictly speaking, worthless to the OP's parameters of a VoP character accessing incarnum through [Good].


If it's there I'm not seeing it.
Huh. Odd. So that opens up another huge bank of reasons you really want immunity to [Mind-affecting], and not just to [Charm] and [Compulsion].


Keeneye lenses get you see invisibility when bound to the brow, and trueseeing when bound to the soul. You nailed this one, my friend.
:smallcool:


Displacer mantle bound to the shoulders gives you the effect of the blur spell, and the fellmist robe grants concealment of varying degree against anyone not immediately adjacent with no bind, provided that the wind is less than strong.
OK, I was forgetting Displacer Mantle, and remembering Fellmist Robe slightly weaker than it actually is. On the whole, it seems Incarnum can handle this aspect of item-replacement reasonably well.


Nailed it again, but you missed the feet bound cerulean sandals. 10ft per meldshaper level per day divided into as many 10ft increments as you like.
Meh, I think Blink Shirt is still better.


Paudrons of health give immunity to energy drain if bound to the shoulders, and immunity to disease and the sickened and nauseated conditions regardless. Strongheart vest gives immunity to energy drain and death effects when bound to the heart. Necrocarnum vestments get you immunity to stunning and death effects when bound to the heart. One out of three for the energy drain at least.
OK, so our VoP character can at least be protected from energy drain (and sickened/nauseated). That's as good as most characters can afford from magic items, honestly; Soulfire Armor is about the only thing on Ernir's list that actually gives true protection from everything in this category, and most characters never get to high enough levels to be able to afford Soulfire.


Shadow mantle bound to the shoulders lets you get a wierd affect. For a swift action you shroud a 5ft per essentia invested area in utter darkness and gain blindsight to the same distance. It's another swift to deactivate. You get blindsight at the same time you blind everyone that doesn't have it.

Then there's the landshark boots that give you almost tremor sense, in a move action to pinpoint every creature within 10 +5/essentia feet, that's touching the ground.

The best option though, is the shedu crown bound to the crown chakra. Telepathy to 100ft makes mindsight a possibility. Though this particular version of telepathy is listed as mind-affecting and won't allow you to bypass mindblank like mindsight normally would.
Hmmm, the Shedu Crown ==> Mindsight trick is one of my favorite uses of Incarnum, so I'm surprised I didn't think of it. Must be because it requires another feat that wouldn't be a bonus feat ... but still, totally worth it. Add in the others you mentioned -- although they have annoying action costs -- and Incarnum comes out OK, if not great, in this category.


It's not everything, and I didn't include any soulmelds that may have been printed in magazines, but it's pretty good coverage.

Well, it could be, with a bit more help. Here's what I think would be necessary to make VoP pretty reasonably competitive:

Bonus feats from VoP, in addition to [Exalted] feats, can also be [Incarnum] feats. The character may not use [Lawful], [Chaotic], or [Evil] incarnum effects, with the exception of the [Lawful] aspect of Incarnate Avatar. Also, the character may treat his character level as his meldshaper level for the purposes of the Enigma Helm all purposes.

Replace the worthless Level 10 "DR 5/magic" ability with the Freedom of Movement ability. Replace the Level 14 Freedom of Movement ability with the True Seeing ability. Replace the Level 18 True Seeing ability with immunity to [Death] effects.

Homebrew a new Soulmeld that grants immunity to [Fear] effects, either by default or when bound to one of the least Chakras. When bound to a greater Chakra (belt?) it grants a Mind Blank effect -- possibly even the lovely Slayer version of Mind Blank that doesn't block friendly effects. I'm not sure what other effects this new Soulmeld should have, nor its fluff.

There. Now Vow of Poverty is downright palatable.


With this "fix" totemist would be redundant, unless you've just got to have totem binds.
Totemist actually gets a few other goodies that tend to get overlooked, even beyond Level 2; especially the Level 11 ability to bind a soulmeld to both the Totem Chakra and another Chakra at the same time. Yummy.


I won't argue that CustServ said that, but I'm doubtful about RAW.

I've looked through the Soulmeld section a couple times, but I don't see anything contradicting the phrase "You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra" outside the Incarnate or Totemist class abilities.

Granted, I may be missing something, but it looks pretty clear that something like a level 6 Fighter or Wizard with an Open Chakra feat "can ... bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra."

But weirdly enough, I could see the argument that a Fighter 5/Incarnate 1 with the Open Chakra feat couldn't bind anything, because its class ability and the feat description would directly clash.

This matches my understanding of RAW as well. Also, compare other abilities that were clearly intended to allow non-meldshapers to bind soulmelds to chakras, but also lack an explicit clause about adding a chakra bind, such as the Open Chakra psionic power.

[Roguenewb]

I could definitely play that Forsaker guy. My only Totemist (a totem rager w/o pounce) didn't use any equipped magic items because I didn't like endlessly reconfiguring my soulmeld/item combinations. I used a lot of wondrous items that could be activated without a slot. I hated having magic items, and I hate magic items in general.

[Qwertystop]

Honestly, I get the impression that lots of the folks who bash BoED have yet to actually read it.

To wit:

However, the fact remains that the Exalted feats (where Exalted its presented as Good+) require Lawful Good. Chaotic and Neutral do not have any equivalent. Also, Vile feats, the Evil equivalent, require Chaotic Evil.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Those who favor a more strict interpretation of the Open Chakra feats point out that it only permits you to bind a meldshape to that chakra... it doesn't give you the bind slot to do it with, it merely opens it, as it says on the tin. Number of binds allowed is a separately tracked class ability from chakras that are allowed to be bound to.

In other words, if a non-meldshaper takes Open Chakra and picks up a Meldshape with a feat, he can shape it to that slot, but he won't be able to bind it.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is a perfectly valid interpretation. Rather like the debate about the Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock, the wording is vague enough to be interpreted either way.

I could probably do up a custom Meldshape that can include immunity to mind affecting and eventually mindblank...

[Psyren]

I won't argue that CustServ said that, but I'm doubtful about RAW.

I've looked through the Soulmeld section a couple times, but I don't see anything contradicting the phrase "You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra" outside the Incarnate or Totemist class abilities.

Granted, I may be missing something, but it looks pretty clear that something like a level 6 Fighter or Wizard with an Open Chakra feat "can ... bind a soulmeld or a magic item to that chakra."

I'm with eggs. "You can bind a soulmeld to that chakra" must mean you get a chakra bind, otherwise you could not in fact bind a soulmeld to that chakra, and that statement would violate its own RAW.

We can also look at this line from the Open Chakra spells/power:


A creature benefiting from this spell can bind a soul meld or magic item to his opened chakra just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature.


A creature benefiting from this power can bind a soul meld or magic item to his opened chakra just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature.

Note that the spells (and power) consider chakra binds from a feat to be exactly equivalent to chakra binds from a class feature. In other words, there is no assumption there that having just the feat would not be enough.

Speaking of magic items:


You can bind a magic item to a chakra only if you already have the ability to bind a soulmeld to that chakra (from a class feature, a feat, or other special ability).

The use of "or" here as well implies that each condition is sufficient on its own to bind to a chakra, just as it does with the spells/powers.

So the "open chakra" feats must grant you a bind to use them with, or at the very least count as one if you don't have any from your class yet.

[Darius Kane]

However, the fact remains that the Exalted feats (where Exalted its presented as Good+) require Lawful Good.
Uuuh, no they don't. They only require being Good. :smallconfused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13859313#post13859313) is a cute little custom Meldshape to cover the mind-affecting problem. Starts off with Nondetection by binding to Crown, which is a Least. Then you get Immunity to Mind Affecting on Brow, which is a Lesser (so around 9th level), but you don't get Mind Blank until your Soul Chakra. Since it's duplicating an 8th level spell, that seems fair to me.

[Qwertystop]

Uuuh, no they don't. They only require being Good. :smallconfused:

Hmmm... Looking at it again, it appears you're right... However, the Emissary of Barachiel PrC does treat non-Lawful characters worse than Lawful ones, assuming they're not Evil. Also, there are more PrCs that are Lawful-only than Chaotic or Neutral-only. I was sure I had seen something that said Exalted was only Lawful, but I can't find it now...

[Draz74]

Honestly, I get the impression that lots of the folks who bash BoED have yet to actually read it.

That's probably true of every book that people bash, on the Internet.


However, the fact remains that the Exalted feats (where Exalted its presented as Good+) require Lawful Good. Chaotic and Neutral do not have any equivalent. Also, Vile feats, the Evil equivalent, require Chaotic Evil.

On the contrary, Favored of the Companions is specifically flavored towards Neutral Good, while Knight of Stars is specifically for followers of Chaotic Good patrons ...

[Andorax]

Draz74...is there a reason that VOP characters have to be able to cover 100% of the list without relying on anyone else? Or, for that matter, is there a reason why [lawful] and [chaotic] effects aren't perfectly allowable? LG characters aren't less Lawful in order to be more Good...the two axis are independant.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmmm... Looking at it again, it appears you're right... However, the Emissary of Barachiel PrC does treat non-Lawful characters worse than Lawful ones, assuming they're not Evil. Also, there are more PrCs that are Lawful-only than Chaotic or Neutral-only. I was sure I had seen something that said Exalted was only Lawful, but I can't find it now...

I'd have to go and check the number of lawful only options V the others to varify that, but I'm dead certain that Exalted status has no ethical requirment.

[Draz74]

Draz74...is there a reason that VOP characters have to be able to cover 100% of the list without relying on anyone else?
Because ... Because magic items (following Wealth By Level) can cover 100% of the list without relying on anyone else?

I mean, ideally, I'd like a Vow of Poverty that works regardless of party composition. I'd even like to be able to play a solo character with VoP ... and if not that, at least be part of a party that eschews all Vancian casting. So if you were thinking "just let the Cleric Death Ward you instead of getting a soulmeld to do it," that's not a solution that sits well with me.


Or, for that matter, is there a reason why [lawful] and [chaotic] effects aren't perfectly allowable? LG characters aren't less Lawful in order to be more Good...the two axis are independant.

This one was more for flavor than for power. Balance-wise, I don't think Lawful/Chaotic incarnmum powers would do much to the issue. I was just trying to remain faithful to the (arguably self-righteous) portrayal of alignment that BoED and Incarnum tend to favor in their fluff.

[AmberVael]

Or Incarnate Avatar (Lawful), evidently. Thanks, Shneekey.

It is most heartening to see my post has been useful. At least, that's what I'd say if it had been noticed. :smallfrown:


On the topic of the open chakra feats, I can definitely see where all the confusion is coming from. It, was definitely not made clear. I think I agree with those who would allow it to grant a bind as well- they're really not worth it at all otherwise. Admittedly I hesitate in allowing a bind per feat given how few the base classes get, but I don't think it would really unbalance anything to do it that way.

Really though, if that's not the way it is, it is an exceptionally specific and low powered feat- it only works for multiclass incarnum users. Or the soulborn.
...which really says something about the power level of the soulborn.

[Qwertystop]

This one was more for flavor than for power. Balance-wise, I don't think Lawful/Chaotic incarnmum powers would do much to the issue. I was just trying to remain faithful to the (arguably self-righteous) portrayal of alignment that BoED and Incarnum tend to favor in their fluff.

Also, any meld with different characteristics based on your alignment acts weird when you have a corner alignment, or are True Neutral. It would have to be limited to something, and limiting it to Good just makes more sense than limiting it to Lawful.

By a similar note, any meld that has restricted alignment is only actually restricted for Incarnates and Soulborn. Totemists and others who got the meld from a feat don't care about alignment restrictions.

[DonutBoy12321]

Sure. And while we're on it, make it a Warforged with Grafts and Symbionts. Screw not having equipment, these are a part of your body.

Edit: And Binder. Let's go all out here.