[E6 PF/3.5] Help making a thrown-weapons fighter

[Danneskjold]

I'm attempting to make a thrown-weapons fighter, and I have run into a wall of sorts. There are too many options and paths for me to make a choice without doubting myself (I am fairly new to the game). As for details for people to run on, starting level will be 4 and stats are as follows:

STR 14
DEX 17 (+1 at 4)
CON 15
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 13

Content allowed (that I remember):

PF classes
First party 3.5 books
Dragon magazine (by request)
Web supplements (by request)

As for race and class(es), I found Catfolk to work fairly well, with a LA +1, I get +4 DEX and +2 CHA. The problems I'm running into is what class(es) I should take, as there seem to be few decent options, and what feats I should take. So far for feats I have Weapon Finesse, because I would like to be useful in melee when necessary, as I don't want to rely solely on thrown weapons, which are actually pretty weak (The best solution (I've found) to this is to get sneak attack damage, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about it), Quick Draw, and Far Shot, because duh.

As for other ways, I'm not entirely sure what path of feats to take, as there are things to build toward like Power Throw, though I feel the Brutal Throw is wasted on the build.

As this is E6, I get feats at normal progression, plus 1 feat every 5000 XP after level 6, so a long chain of feats is not prohibited.

Thanks in advance for any help. :biggrin:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hey all,

So, this is one of my E6 players. I've helped him somewhat with the building of this character since this thread was made, getting him as far as a Catfolk Zhentarim Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 5 (Sneak Attack because Sneak Attack is a decent way to gain bonus damage for thrown weapons, and Zhentarim and Thug because they are both free lunches)/Thrown Weapons Master 1 with the Palm Throw feature (although Doubletoss, Sneaky Shot and Trip Shot are all possibilities as well). I'm allowing extra thrown weapons tricks be taken as feats. The character will start at ECL 5 (4 class levels, +1 LA) when (and if) it is introduced. Unfortunately, pre-epic feats are more or less locked in if he wants his character to qualify for Master Thrower before level 6 (I am not allowing flaws, as everybody else made their characters without them, but I am allowing everybody to take their third feat at 5th level, as per Pathfinder, or 6th level, as per traditional 3.5, whichever benefits them the most). Beyond that point, however (and there *will* be a "beyond that point", as my game is already at 6 + 2 feats for one player, and 6 + 1 feat for most of the others), I'm at a loss: I suggested the Two-Weapon Fighting line (for up to 8 throws at 6th level; with Weapon Focus in daggers, such a character would have +11/+11/+6/+6 to hit with normal daggers and both feats) and thought about suggesting Imperious Command for a non-combat trick, but I'm not sure if something better exists for such a character, so if the talented (and beautiful :smallwink:) people of Giant could suggest something better, I'd be happy to oblige. Assume any PO trick and sourcebook is on the table, as long as it is WotC-legal; if the character is wildly overpowered for the group, I can help tone it down to a reasonable level.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 6.

Keep the bonus feats. Sneak attack is extremely unreliable with ranged attacks. Between Weapon Focus/Specialization, (Improved) TWF, and ranged weapon feats, the bonus feats will really help out a lot.

Get six levels of Fighter so you can pick up the E6 Fighter capstone and get Ranged Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc. Zhentarim Soldier is fine, you lose nothing by taking it. Always trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) if you won't be wearing medium or heavier armor. Maybe go with Thug, but you lose the Fighter 1 bonus feat.

Forget daggers, use Gloves of Endless Javelins. Daggers have tons of problems, like the cost of a dozen or more masterwork or magic weapons, having to retrieve them, running out of them in the middle of a fight, carrying capacity, etc.

For your race, I'd go with (Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater)) Halfling, considering the small size plus racial bonus on thrown weapons. Throw on Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for wings, more Dex, and some extremely useful spell-like abilities. It's even better if you can get Magic in the Blood (PGtF) via two ranks in Kn: Local. Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium would be an even stronger alternative to Half-Fey for no level adjustment at all. Maybe even use a variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a creature with an extraordinarily high Dex, and/or dip just a few levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) of it. (See if you can spend post-6th virtual levels on a template?)

A completely different option would be to make a Str-based thrower with the feat Brutal Throw (CV). In that case, I'd go with a (Water) Orc and use that Half-Fiend variant based on a Goristro (FC1) (or just some of it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234089#4)). That would be large size, and with 0 pointbuy for the +4 LA your ability scores would be Str 28, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6, with a +5 natural armor bonus and two slam attacks which each count as a two-handed weapon for Str and Power Attack bonuses. Your two-punch melee full attack would be just as strong as your ranged attacks without any investment at all!

[Talionis]

I have to think that Fighter in E6 is a trap. The best thing about Fighter is you get a lot of Feats. The best thing about E6 is you get a lot of Feats. Only take as many levels of Fighter as you need extra Feats to Qualify for a Prestige Class.

Hulking Hurler from Complete Warrior is a different direction to go.

Warblades make better fighters and there are enough boots and Stances that you can use at Range that are more useful than Fighter. With the Cityscape contact feat chain (2 feats) you can get increase Balance and get into Bloodstorm Blade at level 5 allowing you Some cool 2nd level Bloodstorm Blade abilities. Being able to Power Attack from a distance is pretty cool. All that is Tome of Battle. If you take four levels of any initiator class you can get Third level Manuevers. Revitalizing Strike (Devoted Spirit) heals, Inciteful Strike (Diamond Mind) can be a lot of damage, Iron Heart Surge, Assassin Stance (Shadow Hand) adds two d6 Sneak Attack damage, White Raven Tactics gives an ally an extra turn. Even the lower level Manuevers can be good, Shadow Hand can set up Sneak Attack, Desert Wind has a ton of boosts, boosts and stances from any discipline can add a lot and a one or two level dip in Crusader or Warblades will give you a decent recovery mechanic without loosing BAB, and some of the Swordsage Manuevers can be picked up later with feats.

Scout might be more interesting than fighter also, but you do lose a BAB. Skirmish is designed to work at range better than Sneak Attack.

Person Man came up with this list of Full BAB base classes:

"Here is the base class index. It took me one minute to cut and paste it into Excel, and then delete out the non-full BAB classes. (From memory, sadly. I've been playing this game too long).

Class Source Pg
barbarian ECS 33
barbarian FRCS 22
barbarian PlH 28
barbarian PH* 24
barbarian Sa 44
crusader ToB 8
duskblade PH2 19
dwarf fighter RS 146
eidolon Gh 16
elf paladin RW 155
elf ranger RW 155
epic barbarian EL 8
epic fighter EL 11
epic paladin EL 13
epic ranger EL 14
fighter ECS 38
fighter FRCS 24
fighter PlH 32
fighter PH* 37
gnome ranger RS 149
goliath barbarian RS 150
half-elf barbarian RD 158
half-elf fighter RD 157
half-elf paladin RD 160
half-elf ranger RD 158
hexblade CW 5
knight PH2 24
paladin ECS 39
paladin FRCS 25
paladin PlH 33
paladin PH* 42
paladin Sa 48
paladin of freedom UA 53
paladin of slaughter UA 53
paladin of tyranny UA 54
paladin variant CW 13
planar ranger UA 55
ranger ECS 41
ranger FRCS 26
ranger PlH 34
ranger PH* 46
ranger Sa 48
ranger variant CW 13
raptoran fighter RW 161
samurai CW 8
samurai OA 20
soulborn MoI 25
swashbuckler CW 11
thug UA 51
totem barbarian UA 48
urban ranger UA 55
warblade ToB 20
warrior DCS 53
warrior DMG 109
warrior UA 78"

[Danneskjold]

Fighter 6.

Keep the bonus feats. Sneak attack is extremely unreliable with ranged attacks. Between Weapon Focus/Specialization, (Improved) TWF, and ranged weapon feats, the bonus feats will really help out a lot.

I too, feel that the extra feats are a bit of a trap in E6. It's a work over time, I don't have to be great to start, just survivable. :smalltongue:


Always trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) if you won't be wearing medium or heavier armor.

I do like the Tumble in Exchange for Ride, that will come in handy.


Forget daggers, use Gloves of Endless Javelins. Daggers have tons of problems, like the cost of a dozen or more masterwork or magic weapons, having to retrieve them, running out of them in the middle of a fight, carrying capacity, etc.

I feel that daggers, though slightly weaker, benefit more from the current path as they benefit from the Palm Throw feature of the Master thrower, though it couldn't hurt to have the Javelins as an option. As for the cost, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and for retrieving them, I intend on having contingencies (such as melee or perhaps the javelins).


For your race, I'd go with (Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater)) Halfling, considering the small size plus racial bonus on thrown weapons. Throw on Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) for wings, more Dex, and some extremely useful spell-like abilities. It's even better if you can get Magic in the Blood (PGtF) via two ranks in Kn: Local. Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium would be an even stronger alternative to Half-Fey for no level adjustment at all. Maybe even use a variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a creature with an extraordinarily high Dex, and/or dip just a few levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) of it. (See if you can spend post-6th virtual levels on a template?)

Water Halfling with Half-Fey is something I see a lot as recommendations for ranged characters so I will consider it, but it seems like it might be a bit awkward to come up with a role-playing reason for being a Half-Fey Water Halfling. I couldn't find anything on Magic in the Blood or Seelie Fey (guess I don't have those books?) so I can't say much about them, but I do like the idea of picking up a Half-Fiend template, and will ask about it.


A completely different option would be to make a Str-based thrower with the feat Brutal Throw (CV). In that case, I'd go with a (Water) Orc and use that Half-Fiend variant based on a Goristro (FC1) (or just some of it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234089#4)). That would be large size, and with 0 pointbuy for the +4 LA your ability scores would be Str 28, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6, with a +5 natural armor bonus and two slam attacks which each count as a two-handed weapon for Str and Power Attack bonuses. Your two-punch melee full attack would be just as strong as your ranged attacks without any investment at all!

That seems like it would be very nice to try, though it seems borderline cheesy since it renders a portion of the party obsolete. Plus LA +4 means I start at level 1 when everyone else is already at 6, which might make things a bit hard on everyone (including the DM)


Hulking Hurler from Complete Warrior is a different direction to go.

And looking at it, may make for an interesting separate character entirely! :smallbiggrin:


Warblades make better fighters and there are enough boots and Stances that you can use at Range that are more useful than Fighter. With the Cityscape contact feat chain (2 feats) you can get increase Balance and get into Bloodstorm Blade at level 5 allowing you Some cool 2nd level Bloodstorm Blade abilities. Being able to Power Attack from a distance is pretty cool. All that is Tome of Battle. If you take four levels of any initiator class you can get Third level Manuevers. Revitalizing Strike (Devoted Spirit) heals, Inciteful Strike (Diamond Mind) can be a lot of damage, Iron Heart Surge, Assassin Stance (Shadow Hand) adds two d6 Sneak Attack damage, White Raven Tactics gives an ally an extra turn. Even the lower level Manuevers can be good, Shadow Hand can set up Sneak Attack, Desert Wind has a ton of boosts, boosts and stances from any discipline can add a lot and a one or two level dip in Crusader or Warblades will give you a decent recovery mechanic without loosing BAB, and some of the Swordsage Manuevers can be picked up later with feats.

I like this as an alternative path to go, as it gives (most of) the sneak attack of the fighter variant, plus maneuvers, and everyone loves maneuvers. I'll look more into making it a full build/melding it with the current one.


Scout might be more interesting than fighter also, but you do lose a BAB. Skirmish is designed to work at range better than Sneak Attack.

As it stands, I'll leave the Scout business to our current Scout, but seeing as this character is a backup, that role may very well need to be filled by the time it comes into play, and changes can always be made.

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys, if there are any others, I'd be glad to hear them!

[Lonely Tylenol]

That seems like it would be very nice to try, though it seems borderline cheesy since it renders a portion of the party obsolete. Plus LA +4 means I start at level 1 when everyone else is already at 6, which might make things a bit hard on everyone (including the DM)

To elaborate: I am not using the rules for LA affecting both point buy, both because the LA rules for E6 are rubbish (Pixie Rogue/Warlock/almost anything else, anyone?), and because my game doesn't use point buy anyway (per popular vote). The listed ability scores in the original post are his base scores for this character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I feel that daggers, though slightly weaker, benefit more from the current path as they benefit from the Palm Throw feature of the Master thrower, though it couldn't hurt to have the Javelins as an option. As for the cost, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and for retrieving them, I intend on having contingencies (such as melee or perhaps the javelins).

I don't see any benefit at all to using Palm Throw, or even taking a single level of Master Thrower. Palm Throw doesn't let you add your Str bonus to damage at all, and precision damage (sneak attack, Craven) only applies once per attack roll, so with Weapon Specialization you're looking at only +1d4 damage for using Palm Throw and doubling the number of daggers you need to buy/carry. By going Fighter 6 with the E6 Fighter capstone feat you can get an extra +3 to hit and +2 damage, double threat range, and an extra +20 ft. range increment, most of which applies to any piercing ranged weapon you use. Between the considerable cost/efficiency benefits of using Gloves of Endless Javelins over daggers, and the fact that you're getting 50 ft. range increments versus 10 ft. increments, I don't see why Master Thrower was even suggested in the first place.


Water Halfling with Half-Fey is something I see a lot as recommendations for ranged characters so I will consider it, but it seems like it might be a bit awkward to come up with a role-playing reason for being a Half-Fey Water Halfling. I couldn't find anything on Magic in the Blood or Seelie Fey (guess I don't have those books?) so I can't say much about them, but I do like the idea of picking up a Half-Fiend template, and will ask about it.

You may be surprised at just how many fey creatures live in water rather than on land. A Half-Fey Halfling could be the result of a landbound fey plus a normal halfling, while a Half-Fey Water Halfling is the result of a water-dwelling fey plus a normal halfling. That was easy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Consider Vow of Poverty. Normally it sucks for warriors, but daggers and javelins, simple weapons, are among the top tier for thrown weapons (unless you're a bloodstorm blade, then it's a falchion or something). And you're allowed those. An indeterminate number of them, in fact. But...long story short... VoP makes all of them magical weapons, a boon a thrower can certainly use.

I'd get at least 1d6 sneak attack in the build somehow. Just to qualify for Craven feat for +HD (ie, up to +6) bonus damage when sneak attacking.

If you don't do VoP, you definitely want goggles of foe-finding and gauntlets of extended range. Both from MIC and both very cheap. Former lets you ignore cover bonuses except total cover. Latter doubles your thrown weapon range (like Far Shot, except it's not so it'd stack). MIC also have the gloves of endless javelins item, it's something like 5000 gp and gives you...infinite +1 javelins.

Dex to damage is nifty, too. You can use the Hit and Run Fighter variant (Drow of the Underdark) for that. Or if you dip swordsage or just spend feats on a shadow hand stance (sadly, none of the 1st level ones are that useful to a thrower), you can take Shadow Blade to add dex to damage w/ shadow hand weapons, which includes daggers. On top of strength.

[Hylas]

I made a PF/3.5 Thrower that's level 6, but I needed a couple house rules to make it more efficient.

I don't have the character sheet with me as the DM kept it so I'll have to do this off of memory.

Hammerbeard (Dwarf)
Fighter 5/Master Thrower 1 (Palm Throw)

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Light Hammer
Weapon Specialization: Light Hammer
Rapid Shot? I don't remember if it works with thrown weapons. Take Deadly Aim otherwise
Quick Draw
To get: Far Shot, Greater Weapon Specialization

Fighter should pick up whatever helps out with the weapons

STR 10
DEX 18
rest isn't important

Items:
A dozen masterwork hammers of various types of materials - ~3624 GP
A custom magic item which consists of a jacket with lots of hooks/pockets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) - 2000GP (requires house rule to work with thrown weapons)

I'll assume Rapid Shot doesn't work.

TWF gives you plenty of attacks and with palm throw it'll be 8 attacks a round. Weapon specialization gives you a total of +16 damage per round. Deadly aim also gives a total of +32 damage if everything hits. The custom magic item gives limitless ammunition. I like to use hammers because they have an increased range increment over daggers, and the accuracy can kill you since you're mostly standing still, chucking a large number of weapons every round. In practice I found only 4 hammers hit per round on average.

6 BAB +4 DEX +1 Weapon Focus +1 Masterwork quality +1 Point Blank +1 Fighter Bonus -2 Deadly Aim -TWF= +10/+10/+5/+5 attacks
1d4 +2 Weapon Specialization +4 Deadly Aim +1 Point Blank Shot +1 Fighter Bonus = 1d4+8 damage per hammer and 2d4+16 damage per hit

Palm Throw goes way further than any reasonable STR bonus once you start stacking on the damage feats. Weapon Specialization alone is just as good as 18 STR. You'll probably be much better off buffing DEX as much as you can since range penalties were always my bane. Make sure to get far shot ASAP.

[Talionis]

My suggest for a cool/different thrower in E6:

3 Duskblade / 1 Warblades / 2 Bloodstorm Blade

Duskblade gives you the spell ability to use Dancing Lights Spell which can hypnotize.
You can use the Dancing light Trick found in the Duskblade Handbook that basically lets you hypnotize:

" Fascinating Illumination: You can get this feat at first level because you can cast dancing lights as a spell-like ability 3+int times per day, from the duskblade's arcane attunement ability. At the first few levels, the ability to cast hypnotic pattern 4+int (you gain an extra use from the feat) times per day (which is 2d4+ hit dice each time) is wonderful! Absolutely a must pick for any duskblade, until you're able to use your arcane channeling. As you gain levels and monsters that are immune or resistant to mind-affecting effects are more common, it's a good idea to swap it out for something else, like power attack.
Deceptive Illumination: As above, but you get to cast silent image instead of hypnotic pattern. This feat has some staying power, as silent image is a powerful spell at all levels, but it's highly dependent on your DM's style." -- Dictum Mortuum

You can disarm at range with True Strike.
Disarming Strike is an Iron Heart Maneuver with True Strike your TO HIT is so great you should normally be able to remove a weapon

Power Attack or Charge or even Channel Spells from the safety of Range.
With the Second Level, Brutal Throw, Bloodstorm Blade ability you can use all ranged attacks as if they were melee attacks. A lot of people allow Duskblade Channel spells to be done at range. This is hardly game breaking, but works well.

Full BAB.
Speaks for itself in E6 getting the Second Attack is a big deal. Less a big deal for maneuver users since multiple first and second level maneuvers that do allow it, but they don't allow it at range, so getting the second iterative attack is important.

Feats can increase your caster level.
You can fix caster level with the Practiced Spellcaster Feat from complete arcane. This is a good way for this build to repair the loss in caster level.
After that there are several good ways to increase caster level.

Cons :smallfrown:

Only First level spells though respectable number.
Duskblade doesn't get second level spells till level 5. Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon lets you use two lower level spells to cast a spell one level higher which could net you a second level spell. You just have to also finagle a second level spell on your list of known spells. I'm not familiar with all the E6 epic feats, but often they had higher level spells.

Cannot get to third level maneuvers either.
It takes four levels of initiator to get third level maneuvers. But don't forget that Bloodstorm Blade, even though its a prestige class from ToB, that requires maneuvers for entry, does not advance fully initiator level. Was this a mistake? Is it RaI to be a full initiator? Check with your DM because if it did then it would be a little easier to get third level maneuvers and it might be worth it.

[Talionis]

Its important to remember in E6 that all of these are pick able as feats, so even if you aren't a Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade you can use these abilities once per encounter. A one level dip grants you a recovery mechanic, both Crusader and Warblade recovery mechanics are great and you won't loose BAB. Swordsage will lose BAB, but if you are trying to setup Sneak Attack some of its maneuvers are wonderful and you could pick them up with a feat, and with a dip in Crusader or Warblade you can recover those maneuvers to use them multiple times per encounter.

The following martial stances and maneuvers are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants:

Desert Wind

Level 1
Burning Blade (Boost, 0)
Distracting Ember (Boost, 0)
Flame’s Blessing (Stance, 0)
Wind Stride (Boost, 0)

Level 2
Fire Riposte (Counter, 1)
Hatchling’s Flame (Strike, 1)

Level 3
Fan the Flames (Strike, 1)
Holocaust Cloak (Stance, 1)
Zephyr Dance (Counter, 1)


Devoted Spirit

Level 1
Iron Guard’s Glare (Stance, 0)
Martial Spirit (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Shield Block (Counter, 0) Probably with a Buckler

Level 3
Defensive Rebuke (Boost, 1)
Thicket of Blades (Stance, 1)


Diamond Mind

Level 1
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter, 0)
Stance of Clarity (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Action Before Thought (Counter, 0)

Level 3
Insightful Strike (Strike, 0) Leaving it just because it has the potential to be very high damage strike, but you can't use it at range
Mind Over Body (Counter, 0)
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance, 1)


Iron Heart

Level 1
Punishing Stance (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Wall of Blades (Counter, 0)

Level 3
Absolute Steel Stance (Stance, 1)
Iron Heart Surge (Other, 1)


Setting Sun

Level 1
Counter Charge (Counter, 0)
Step of the Wind (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Baffling Defense (Counter, 1)

Level 3
Feigned Opening (Counter, 1)
Giant Killing Style (Stance, 1)


Shadow Hand

Level 1
Child of Shadow (Stance, 0)
Island of Blades (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Cloak of Deception (Boost, 0)
Shadow Jaunt (Other, 0)

Level 3
Assassin’s Stance (Stance, 1)
Dance of the Spider (Stance, 0)
Shadow Garrote (Strike, 0) This is a ranged attack


Stone Dragon

Level 1
Stonefoot Stance (Stance, 0)

Level 2
Mountain Hammer (Strike, 0) Better Door Opener of Choice

Level 3
Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stance, 1)
Roots of the Mountain (Stance, 0)

Tiger Claw

Level 1
Blood in the Water (Stance, 1)
Hunter's Sense (Stance, 1)
Sudden Leap (Boost, 1) -- A great way to move around and full attack

Level 2

Level 3
Leaping Dragon Stance (Stance 1)
Wolverine Stance (Stance, 1)


White Raven

Level 1
Bolstering Voice (Stance, 0)
Leading the Charge (Stance, 0)

Level 2

Level 3
Lion’s Roar (Boost, 1)
Tactics of the Wolf (Stance, 1)
White Raven Tactics (Boost, 1) -- Gives an Ally another full round action (possibly even you)

NOTE: This shouldn't be confused with my build above that can use the IRON HEART Maneuvers at distance. I also left all stances, but some may have some melee requirement I forgot from memory.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't see any benefit at all to using Palm Throw, or even taking a single level of Master Thrower. Palm Throw doesn't let you add your Str bonus to damage at all, and precision damage (sneak attack, Craven) only applies once per attack roll, so with Weapon Specialization you're looking at only +1d4 damage for using Palm Throw and doubling the number of daggers you need to buy/carry. By going Fighter 6 with the E6 Fighter capstone feat you can get an extra +3 to hit and +2 damage, double threat range, and an extra +20 ft. range increment, most of which applies to any piercing ranged weapon you use. Between the considerable cost/efficiency benefits of using Gloves of Endless Javelins over daggers, and the fact that you're getting 50 ft. range increments versus 10 ft. increments, I don't see why Master Thrower was even suggested in the first place.

For what it's worth, I'm allowing the Master Thrower's tricks to be taken as fears, provided at least one level is taken of the PrC. I would probably allow a Fighter taken to 5 to take the capstone feat as well (but I wouldn't allow both).

Worth noting also that Palm Throw is better with flat damage bonuses like Weapon Specialization and Deadly Aim (both of which I have allowed in my game), although this doesn't speak much to the damage potential for Sneak Attack except in that both can be applied.


You may be surprised at just how many fey creatures live in water rather than on land. A Half-Fey Halfling could be the result of a landbound fey plus a normal halfling, while a Half-Fey Water Halfling is the result of a water-dwelling fey plus a normal halfling. That was easy.

Further (and this is for Danneskjold), the elemental racial variants are not necessarily all born of water or anything, at least not in my game; in this campaign, they are merely the exemplary members of a race--paragons, if you will--that are innately attuned, in some small way, to that element; in fact, all Halflings are celebrated during the rainy season, in cultures that still celebrate that sort of thing. So if you want a default fluff to fall on, there's always that.

(That said, I believe he's decided on Catfolk.)


Cannot get to third level maneuvers either.
It takes four levels of initiator to get third level maneuvers. But don't forget that Bloodstorm Blade, even though its a prestige class from ToB, that requires maneuvers for entry, does not advance fully initiator level. Was this a mistake? Is it RaI to be a full initiator? Check with your DM because if it did then it would be a little easier to get third level maneuvers and it might be worth it.

I'll look at Bloodstorm Blade's maneuvers entry. If it's an omission, I'd definitely allow it. If it's explicitly mentioned as 1/2 level, I'll build a Bloodstorm Blade myself (at equal optimization to the party) and see how it compares. If it's qualitatively better than, say, the Warblade in the group, or the Bard or Psion, then I would say no. (This isn't very likely.)

Worth noting that the above build doesn't get third-level maneuvers anyway (it has an IL of 4 with 1/2 progression, and 4.5 with full).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
It looks to me like it's precision damage, so it would only apply once with Palm Throw.

There's a Fighter variant in Dragon 310 called the Targetteer, which gets a few special abilities they can take in place of bonus feats, though what bonus Fighter feats you can take is severely limited. One of those special abilities allows you to add your Dex bonus to ranged damage instead of your Str bonus, but it doesn't remove a Str penalty and it can't be used against targets immune to critical hits. If it doesn't work versus crit-immune then again it's precision damage and it only applies once per attack. Targetteer's other two abilities are Arrow Storm, take a -5 to hit for two extra attacks on a full attack, and Sniper, gain +1 threat range to your next attack for every attack you forfeit on a full attack. With +6 BAB, Haste, Rapid Shot, and Arrow Storm, he'll get to make five attacks. With Sniper he can instead get +4 threat range on one attack, which with a dagger would be 15-20, and with Improved Critical applying his own effects in the most beneficial order it would be 9-20.

He could use the feat Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium to add his Dex bonus to damage on ranged attacks. It only applies within 30 ft. and it only works with weapons for which he's taken Weapon Focus. That is also described as precision damage though, so it would also apply only once per attack. This would actually stack with Targetteer's Dex to damage, since they're untyped bonuses from different sources.

Allowing him to take the Fighter capstone with only five levels of Fighter is a bit of a slippery slope. What if a player wants to go Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 and get the Druid capstone feat, or Bard 5/ Master of Masks 1 and get the Bard capstone feat?

I'd still say definitely get the Fighter capstone for Range Weapon Mastery and the others, no matter what it takes. Gloves of Endless Javelins just completely one-ups everything else in efficiency. You don't have enough levels in E6 for Bloodstorm Blade to really be worthwhile, since it only gives your weapons the Returning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning) property, which requires you to have a free hand per weapon thrown to catch them again.

Just to throw it out there, an E6 character can actually get Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization and even Weapon Supremacy from PH2 with enough Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) levels. Bloodline levels don't increase your character level, so they don't count against your six-level-limit, and they also don't count when determining how much XP you need to gain the next level. With enough Bloodline levels and the Fighter capstone to meet BAB prerequisites, you can get Weapon Supremacy in E6!

[Talionis]

I'd still say definitely get the Fighter capstone for Range Weapon Mastery and the others, no matter what it takes. Gloves of Endless Javelins just completely one-ups everything else in efficiency. You don't have enough levels in E6 for Bloodstorm Blade to really be worthwhile, since it only gives your weapons the Returning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning) property, which requires you to have a free hand per weapon thrown to catch them again. in E6!

If you take the Favored Feat from Cityscape so you can take the Primary Contact to gain an extra Skill level in Balance, so you can get into Bloodstorm Blade for two levels. That gives you Martial Throw and is it Thunderous Throw. Being able to Power Attack at Range is a huge advantage. Charging at range also can be a lot of damage.

A Second Level of Blood Storm Blade is pretty darn good. And people are basically needing to add Epic level feats for Master Thrower to make it worth it. (I think Epic Master Thrower feats are just fine and balanced), but I think in E6 adding some sort of precision damage is hard to do in a useful manner and Master Thrower is a great way to double your number of attacks, but if you only have two base attacks, Palm Throw is much less helpful/meaningful.

[Lans]

Boomerangs are the best thrown weapon in the game due to Boomerang Daze and Richochet from Races of Eberon. DC 10+damage vs daze? Sign me up!

[Eugenides]

Just going to pop in here, because I saw the discussion about Infinite Javelins versus Daggers.

If you want, there are the Gauntlets of Infinite Blades on page 101 of the Magic Item Compendium. They do basically the same thing, but with Daggers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just going to pop in here, because I saw the discussion about Infinite Javelins versus Daggers.

If you want, there are the Gauntlets of Infinite Blades on page 101 of the Magic Item Compendium. They do basically the same thing, but with Daggers.

Nope, it takes a Swift Action to make a dagger with those, so you can only make one per round.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It looks to me like it's precision damage, so it would only apply once with Palm Throw.

What you just quoted is the fluff description of Deadly Aim (note how it precedes even the prerequisites), and the feat itself makes no mention of precision damage (which Pathfinder is rather consistent about). The feat was never intended to be regarded as precision damage (other than that you have to be "precise" when you use it).


Allowing him to take the Fighter capstone with only five levels of Fighter is a bit of a slippery slope. What if a player wants to go Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 and get the Druid capstone feat, or Bard 5/ Master of Masks 1 and get the Bard capstone feat?

I already moved Haste down to a second-level Bard spell so that the Bard could enter into Swiftblade early, and that was five months ago. This doesn't keep pace with that, so I'm actually technically moving back up the slope.

I'm not necessarily concerned with a thrown weapons fighter in E6 breaking the game, especially when you consider everything else that is out there, and you being acutely aware of the more devastating options out there, I'm not sure how this is a concern. :smallconfused:

I will admit, though, that I haven't done this exact thing with anybody else yet (and probably wouldn't for a class that isn't Fighter), so it is sort of unprecedented as of yet.

I'll definitely check out the Dragon stuff, though.

RE: Hylas: the custom item sounds interesting, and I will definitely allow it to be made.

[Togo]

Nope, it takes a Swift Action to make a dagger with those, so you can only make one per round.

Depends on your reading. The text says you can make daggers 'as often as you like', which is well above the once/round that a swift action would imply. It then goes on to list the magical daggers you can create by using charges, which would be subject to an activation cost. There's none specified in the text, so you go on the listed activation cost of one swift action.

So yes, you can rule it only takes a swift action to use charges, and that creation of normal daggers is 'as often as you like'. That reading makes sense, and allows the item to be used for the purpose for which it was designed, so it's the one most people I know use.


As for the OP, you need to decide whether you're going for strength boosted attacks or not. If you are, there is little point going for the master thrower abilities. If not, then the masterthrower abilities are excellent, particularly palm throw, double toss and weak spot. Then fill in with boosts to damage, such as bardic music, weapon specialisation, bracers of lighting (MiC), and the chameleon p-class. Your big obstacle is going to be trying to hit, since almost everything that increases your attacks decreases your to-hit.
Two weapon fighting
Imp two weapon fighting (etc.)
point blank shot
rapid shot
Targeteer abilities
MasterThrower abilities
Chameleon abilities (fighter focus)
weapon focus
weapon specialisation

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Depends on your reading. The text says you can make daggers 'as often as you like', which is well above the once/round that a swift action would imply. It then goes on to list the magical daggers you can create by using charges, which would be subject to an activation cost. There's none specified in the text, so you go on the listed activation cost of one swift action.

So yes, you can rule it only takes a swift action to use charges, and that creation of normal daggers is 'as often as you like'. That reading makes sense, and allows the item to be used for the purpose for which it was designed, so it's the one most people I know use.

Activation: Swift (mental)

When it is activated, a dagger appears in
the hand wearing the gauntlet. This abil-
ity functions as often as needed, though
the dagger disappears 3 rounds after it is
created.
In addition, the gauntlet has 5 charges,
which are renewed each day at dawn.
Spending 1 or more charges creates a more
potent dagger than normal, as described
below.

The use of charges is an addition to their normal activation, which requires a swift action. You can use zero charges for a normal dagger, or you can use one or more charges for a stronger one, but any of the above takes a swift action. Items in MIC with multiple types of activations have multiple action types listed in their Activation: entry, this only has one action type so that's what it takes for any of the item's functions.

[Talionis]

In E6 how do you get Chameleon Prestige class and get Master Thrower Prestige class?

[Togo]

Activation: Swift (mental)

When it is activated, a dagger appears in
the hand wearing the gauntlet. This abil-
ity functions as often as needed, though
the dagger disappears 3 rounds after it is
created.
In addition, the gauntlet has 5 charges,
which are renewed each day at dawn.
Spending 1 or more charges creates a more
potent dagger than normal, as described
below.

The use of charges is an addition to their normal activation, which requires a swift action.

Nope. The activation entry is overriden by the text in the case of a normal dagger (see underlined above). It isn't in the case of expending a charge.

I'm sure you could make an arguement for your interpretation (although you decided not to, in favour of just stating your position over again, presumably on the grounds that I'm deaf:smallamused:). However, if you do follow your interpretation, the item becomes useless, no longer fulfilling the role it was designed for. I'd strongly suggest following my interpretation to make the item useable and balanced, even if you consider it to be RAI rather than RAW.

[Lonely Tylenol]

In E6 how do you get Chameleon Prestige class and get Master Thrower Prestige class?

I'd presume early entry into one via the Favored feats, and entry into the other at normal levels. (Each would only be worth the one-level dip, though.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nope. The activation entry is overriden by the text in the case of a normal dagger (see underlined above). It isn't in the case of expending a charge.

I'm sure you could make an arguement for your interpretation (although you decided not to, in favour of just stating your position over again, presumably on the grounds that I'm deaf:smallamused:). However, if you do follow your interpretation, the item becomes useless, no longer fulfilling the role it was designed for. I'd strongly suggest following my interpretation to make the item useable and balanced, even if you consider it to be RAI rather than RAW.

So if a Warlock's Eldritch Blast is a standard action to activate, but he can use it at-will, does that mean he can use it as often as he wants in a given round? Even if there's no limit to how often an ability can be used, you're still limited by action economy. A Gauntlet of Infinite Blades wasn't intended as a primary source of ranged weapons, it's there for the utility of always being able to have a weapon at hand. "A gauntlet of infinite blades allows you to produce a weapon at a moment's notice." It's for when you wouldn't otherwise be carrying a weapon, so you can still produce one at a moment's notice, or when your other weapons wouldn't be useful, such as in a grapple. It was specifically designed to not be used as a primary source of ranged weapons due to the action cost of activating it.

[Talionis]

I'd presume early entry into one via the Favored feats, and entry into the other at normal levels. (Each would only be worth the one-level dip, though.)

Chameleon requires 8 levels of Disguise and 8 levels of Bluff and Master Thrower requires BAB 5. I don't see how you can get into either early.

I always thought you could only make one skill go up by 1 by using the Favored feat. I also think it doesn't let you take it twice.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Chameleon requires 8 levels of Disguise and 8 levels of Bluff and Master Thrower requires BAB 5. I don't see how you can get into either early.

I always thought you could only make one skill go up by 1 by using the Favored feat. I also think it doesn't let you take it twice.

Apologies. I thought we were combining Bloodstorm Blade with Chameleon (which is doable). Looking at it, I'm honestly not sure how I came to that conclusion.

Yeah, combining a BAB+5 PrC with any other PrC is impossible (unless that PrC advances full BAB and can be taken in the first five levels, and Chameleon is neither).

[Talionis]

Apologies. I thought we were combining Bloodstorm Blade with Chameleon (which is doable). Looking at it, I'm honestly not sure how I came to that conclusion.

Yeah, combining a BAB+5 PrC with any other PrC is impossible (unless that PrC advances full BAB and can be taken in the first five levels, and Chameleon is neither).

No problem. I would've hated to have missed a way to make it happen.