alter self questions

[pyromanser244]

I'm trying to understand this spell. but it has left me with a few questions.

1. in the case of tieflings, and other planetouched races, do they count as outsiders only or can they count as humanoids as well (given their human bloodlines)?

2. does the spell consider subtypes like fire, extraplanar, or chaos, and if so how does this change its use?

3. how do you figure out if feats and skills listed in the MM qualify under this spell or not?

4. is it possible to use monster classes to take the form of a 5 HD version of much nastier critters?

[Dusk Eclipse]

1 & 2) The spell only mentions Types, so it only checks for subtypes. And since Tieflings are outsiders a Tiefling Wizard can only Alter self into other Outsiders.

3) Skills I am not sure; but Racial Bonus feat are marked with a superindent B in the statblock (Blink Dog gets Track as Bonus feat for example) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm)

4) I don't think so.

[Venger]

I'm trying to understand this spell. but it has left me with a few questions.

1. in the case of tieflings, and other planetouched races, do they count as outsiders only or can they count as humanoids as well (given their human bloodlines)?

2. does the spell consider subtypes like fire, extraplanar, or chaos, and if so how does this change its use?

3. how do you figure out if feats and skills listed in the MM qualify under this spell or not?

4. is it possible to use monster classes to take the form of a 5 HD version of much nastier critters?

tieflings and aasimar are outsiders. they do not count as humanoids, because they have the outsider type. lesser aasimar/tieflings do not have the outsider type, but the humanoid type, which is what you were thinking of. they can only turn into other humanoids.

2. your subtype remains the same regardless of your new form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) so it doesn't change its use

3. I do not understand what you mean. I think you mean "do you get racial skill bonuses and feats" the answer to this is yes.

4. again, I am unclear on your meaning. do you mean "can I turn into the troll hunter in MM1?" the answer is no. do you mean something else?

[pyromanser244]

so to be sure I've got this, a tiefling can alter self into any outsider that meets the HD req regardless of what subtype's it may have? good to hear, native outsiders are rare and kinda crappy.

to clarify, I am referring to monster levels in questions 3 and 4. as I understand them, monster levels are measured by HD and give skill points like PC levels do. so how do you tell when critter X's +8 to spot is from racial bonus or SP or both?

also since monsters have levels a 5 HD balor is something which can exist (theoretically) and might be a legit alter self form. naturally the caster doesn't get most of the really good special abilities but applying this (if it works) to high HD outsiders would make getting those racial skill bonuses easier. hence I want to know if it would work at all.:smallbiggrin:

[The Dark Fiddler]

to clarify, I am referring to monster levels in questions 3 and 4. as I understand them, monster levels are measured by HD and give skill points like PC levels do. so how do you tell when critter X's +8 to spot is from racial bonus or SP or both?

Racial skill bonuses are explicitly called out as such. For example, from the wolf entry:

Wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


also since monsters have levels a 5 HD balor is something which can exist (theoretically) and might be a legit alter self form. naturally the caster doesn't get most of the really good special abilities but applying this (if it works) to high HD outsiders would make getting those racial skill bonuses easier. hence I want to know if it would work at all.:smallbiggrin:

No, it won't work. The listed creature in the relevant entry is the minimum assumed for the creature, without DM intervention at least.

[Venger]

so to be sure I've got this, a tiefling can alter self into any outsider that meets the HD req regardless of what subtype's it may have? good to here, native outsiders are rare and kinda crappy.

to clarify, I am referring to monster levels in questions 3 and 4. as I understand them, monster levels are measured by HD and give skill points like PC levels do. so how do you tell when critter X's +8 to spot is from racial bonus or SP or both?

also since monsters have levels a 5 HD balor is something which can exist (theoretically) and might be a legit alter self form. naturally the caster doesn't get most of the really good special abilities but applying this (if it works) to high HD outsiders would make getting those racial skill bonuses easier. hence I want to know if it would work at all.:smallbiggrin:
that is correct. you can turn into anything that shares your type. you don't care about subtypes. you don't gain them when you alter self, and you aren't restricted to turning into your own subtype.

here's the alter self handbook to save you some bookkeeping. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)

oh! now I understand what you meant about monsters!

whenever a monster has a racial bonus on a skill, it will be listed in its entry. for example: a treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm) has a rather abysmal hide check since they're so big. however, in a forested area, they get a rather sizable bonus. this is indicated by an asterisk in their statblock with a footnote later in their entry. the same is true with a creature with +8 to climb/swim checks from race., and that is how you know.

you get racial skill bonuses (if you turn into a skum, you'll get +8 to swim checks) but you use your own skillranks in stuff.

does my answer make sense to you?

[pyromanser244]

that handbook will be invaluable.
thanks a lot guys.

[Venger]

that handbook will be invaluable.
thanks a lot guys.

best of luck with your tiefling!