Literature of Redemption

[Kurien]

Greetings Playground, I post once more to request some help on choosing literature for school reading, and I know The Playground is one of the best read places on the Intarwebs. :smallsmile: If it pleases you, I would quite appreciate it if somebody helped me on this one. :smallbiggrin:

I need three novels which are tied to a common theme, one each from three time periods: pre-1900s
1900 to 1960
1960 to present

I can choose to read the novels in any order, it does not have to be in chronological order of publication. Keeping a reading diary is more than expected; I have to hand it in as well. Later in the semester I will have to write a comparative essay for two of the novels.

The theme I am shooting for is redemption. I have a few suggestions from my excellent teacher already, from the top of his head:
1960s to present: The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini.
Atonement by Ian McKewan.
A Tale of Two Cities–should I be ashamed for not having read this already? :smalltongue:
The Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy
Les Misérables by Victor Hugo


As you can see, I particularly need suggestions from 1900 to 1960.

He’s pretty discriminating on what counts as true literature; basically, true literature is written to teach us about some of the big, universal themes of life—archetypes, if you will. It may also entertain us, but that is never the principal goal of the author.

I think he has no problems with us choosing foreign literature (any novel not originally written in English) and would even be impressed by it, but there could be problems with acquiring a quality translation of such a title.

Thanks in advance for any good suggestions. Man, I hope this thread gets more than a few views. >_<

[JoeMac307]

Another Dicken's example would be A Christmas Carol.

Hard to think of any from 1900 to 1960. My first thought was Siddhartha, but on further thought that doesn't really fit with redemption... I don't think enlightment = redemption necessarily.

I'm also trying to think of a better book for post 1960 than The Kite Runner, which I felt was seriously overrated.

I'll come back in a while, hopefully with some solid suggestions.

[pendell]

Perhaps the character of Mark Studdock in That Hideous Strength (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Hideous_Strength). He works for an illuminati-style organization called NICE, and quite a bit of the book centers on his realization of just what he's into and his escape therefrom. I'm pretty sure C.S. Lewis qualifies as literature. My main concern is that the book may not make much sense absent the rest of the Space Trilogy.

Another possibility is the character of Orual in Till we have faces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_We_Have_Faces). It is a retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche, starring Psyche's older sister Orual. Orual is an angry, bitter woman angry at the gods and at her sister. Much of the book revolves around her eventual reconciliation with the gods, her father, and her sister.

It's the least interesting and readable of all Lewis' work, which no doubt them of prime interest to a literature teacher :).

ETA: Great Scott! How could I have forgotten Lion, Witch and Wardrobe? The redemption of Edmund is a central theme of the books and is the primary occasion of the events at the Stone table. Likewise, in Dawn Treader you have the redemption of Eustace as a secondary theme.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

Hm... 1900 to 1960 wasn't really a time where reflection on past mistakes was a popular theme in Europe. It really started in the 60s once people had some distance from the 100 years of conflict and the cold war with its nuclear weapons reinforced the notion that there is no way around finding different solutions.

[JoeMac307]

ETA: Great Scott! How could I have forgotten Lion, Witch and Wardrobe? The redemption of Edmund is a central theme of the books and is the primary occasion of the events at the Stone table. Likewise, in Dawn Treader you have the redemption of Eustace as a secondary theme.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


I wasn't sure if The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe qualified as literature, which is why I didn't mention it. It is a "kid's" book, and part of a series. One of the reason I didn't mention Boromir's arc in The Fellowship of the Ring, as it is also part of a series, and "Fantasy" which some people think cannot be called "Literature" - not sure what the OP's teacher's feelings would be on these.


Hm... 1900 to 1960 wasn't really a time where reflection on past mistakes was a popular theme in Europe. It really started in the 60s once people had some distance from the 100 years of conflict and the cold war with its nuclear weapons reinforced the notion that there is no way around finding different solutions.

Same could pretty much be said about the US as well.

[snoopy13a]

If you're not wed to redemption as a theme, I've come up with three novels for the theme of: "horror of war." Namely (1) The Red Badge of Courage (pre-1900), (2) All Quiet on the Western Front (1900-1960; you'd have to get an ok as you'd be using the English translation, but if your teacher ok'd Les Mis then I think this would be fine), and (3) Slaughterhouse-Five (post 1960)

Comparing All Quiet with Slaughterhouse-Five wouldn't be too difficult and you might find it interesting.

Another possibility I came up is racism with (1) Huck Finn (2) To Kill a Mockingbird (published in 1960 so not sure what category it'd be in) and (3) The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison.


As for redemption, I'm trying to think of one but the authors that are immediately coming to mind from this period didn't touch on this theme (or at least I can't remember them doing so). Hmm, As I Lay Dying by Faulkner might qualify but I haven't read it in over a decade.

[JoeMac307]

If you're not wed to redemption as a theme, I've come up with three novels for the theme of: "horror of war." Namely (1) The Red Badge of Courage (pre-1900), (2) All Quiet on the Western Front (1900-1960; you'd have to get an ok as you'd be using the English translation, but if your teacher ok'd Les Mis then I think this would be fine), and (3) Slaughterhouse-Five (post 1960)

Comparing All Quiet with Slaughterhouse-Five wouldn't be too difficult and you might find it interesting.



The Naked and the Dead, A Farewell to Arms, maybe even Catch-22 could all fit in that theme as well...

Still trying to find some redemption literature...

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Post 1960 with a Redemption theme? I can think of no better than the First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R Donaldson. It's about a man who is already treading the line of his own Despair Event Horizon after he contracts leprosy, loses his family, gets completely ostracized by the society he lives in, and then loses his passion for writing, the only thing he ever excelled at. Thomas Covenant is pulled into another world (or maybe his own mind) by the Dark Lord Foul who wants to use Covenant to destroy the fantasy world he is trapped in.

Throughout the first trilogy, Covenant basically proves he's the scum of the earth. Everything he touches turns to death, despair and darkness. When his leprosy is cured, the sudden virility he feels overwhelms his senses and he ends up raping his companion. Whenever anyone lends a hand or a kind word to him, Covenant spits on their ideals, their generosity and their compassion. And he's supposed to be the Messiah figure in this world's mythology!

He goes through hell in these books, losing everything he thought he still had, including his health and perhaps sanity. Literally everyone he meets is utterly destroyed, spiritually assaulted by Lord Foul, who is more Cthulhu than Sauron and is the most brilliantly written, and horrifically vile villain in all of literature. Yes. I said that. By the end of the books though, Covenant does redeem himself by combating Lord Foul and ultimately realizing that even if The Land is just an illusion created by his dying brain, it's an illusion he cares about and is willing to die to protect.

Not for the faint of heart, at all. This is mature, dark, psychological fantasy at its absolute best.

[Telonius]

Hmm. "The Secret Garden" might work. Published 1910.

[Radar]

Crime and Punishment is THE book for your theme - if you're talking about redemption, then you should also touch the problem of deeds to be redeemed for. It was written in the second half of 19th century.

Another obvious choice would be Lord Jim by Joseph Conrad - probably even a better fit. This one was published in pieces from October 1899 to November 1900, so it kind of fits the 1900-1960 era if you squint your eyes just right.

I'm out of wits, when it comes to modern literature, so that's it.

[Yora]

What idea of redemption would it be about anyway?

Salvation or Repentance?

Those are actually two entirely different things when it comes to the individual experience.

[GolemsVoice]

If you are allowed to read theatrical works, I can suggest The Man Outside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Outside).

It's about a German soldier returning from Russia in the 50s, only to find that noone wants to deal with the uncomfortable past he embodies. All the while, he struggles with his own guilt over the things he did in the war.

[Blue Ghost]

I strongly second the suggestion of Crime and Punishment. It is very worth reading, IMO. :smallsmile:

[Das Platyvark]

Crime and Punishment is THE book for your theme - if you're talking about redemption, then you should also touch the problem of deeds to be redeemed for. It was written in the second half of 19th century.


Get the Richard Pevear & Larissa Volokhonsky translation if you can—while I haven't read another, it was very much of good quality. I've heard bad things about Constance Garnett, but again, no firsthand view.

[Kurien]

What idea of redemption would it be about anyway?

Salvation or Repentance?

Those are actually two entirely different things when it comes to the individual experience.

I didn't consider the difference before picking the theme, but I do remember my teacher commenting on the difference. Personally I would prefer repentance.


Another Dicken's example would be A Christmas Carol.

Hard to think of any from 1900 to 1960. My first thought was Siddhartha, but on further thought that doesn't really fit with redemption... I don't think enlightment = redemption necessarily.

I'm also trying to think of a better book for post 1960 than The Kite Runner, which I felt was seriously overrated.

I'll come back in a while, hopefully with some solid suggestions.

Thanks, although A Christmas Carol would be quite a stretch, as it is a novella (short) while my teacher would prefer something at least 300 pages long.


Perhaps the character of Mark Studdock in That Hideous Strength . He works for an illuminati-style organization called NICE, and quite a bit of the book centers on his realization of just what he's into and his escape therefrom. I'm pretty sure C.S. Lewis qualifies as literature. My main concern is that the book may not make much sense absent the rest of the Space Trilogy.

Another possibility is the character of Orual in Till we have faces . It is a retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche, starring Psyche's older sister Orual. Orual is an angry, bitter woman angry at the gods and at her sister. Much of the book revolves around her eventual reconciliation with the gods, her father, and her sister.

It's the least interesting and readable of all Lewis' work, which no doubt them of prime interest to a literature teacher :).

ETA: Great Scott! How could I have forgotten Lion, Witch and Wardrobe? The redemption of Edmund is a central theme of the books and is the primary occasion of the events at the Stone table. Likewise, in Dawn Treader you have the redemption of Eustace as a secondary theme.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thanks. My teacher has more restrictions than I considered! >_<. He asked for no series or trilogies, only standalone novels, and also wanted us to read books we haven't read before, so obviously ones we read in elementary school (The Lion the Witch and the Wardobe and other Narnia tales) are out.
I will definitely inquire about Till We Have Faces, but it sounds like a hard read.


Hm... 1900 to 1960 wasn't really a time where reflection on past mistakes was a popular theme in Europe. It really started in the 60s once people had some distance from the 100 years of conflict and the cold war with its nuclear weapons reinforced the notion that there is no way around finding different solutions.

I hear you, and will put this into consideration. I'm not dead set on pursuing Redemption as a theme. Honestly, I have read your posts in many sundry threads and you never fail to impress me with your insight and knowledge. :)


I wasn't sure if The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe qualified as literature, which is why I didn't mention it. It is a "kid's" book, and part of a series. One of the reason I didn't mention Boromir's arc in The Fellowship of the Ring, as it is also part of a series, and "Fantasy" which some people think cannot be called "Literature" - not sure what the OP's teacher's feelings would be on these.

Same could pretty much be said about the US as well.

My teacher has a high opinion of LotR as a representation of the quintessential story of a person (or people) going on a journey (or quest) and returning changed, although don't quote me on that one. :smalltongue:


If you're not wed to redemption as a theme, I've come up with three novels for the theme of: "horror of war." Namely (1) The Red Badge of Courage (pre-1900), (2) All Quiet on the Western Front (1900-1960; you'd have to get an ok as you'd be using the English translation, but if your teacher ok'd Les Mis then I think this would be fine), and (3) Slaughterhouse-Five (post 1960)

Comparing All Quiet with Slaughterhouse-Five wouldn't be too difficult and you might find it interesting.

Another possibility I came up is racism with (1) Huck Finn (2) To Kill a Mockingbird (published in 1960 so not sure what category it'd be in) and (3) The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison.


As for redemption, I'm trying to think of one but the authors that are immediately coming to mind from this period didn't touch on this theme (or at least I can't remember them doing so). Hmm, As I Lay Dying by Faulkner might qualify but I haven't read it in over a decade.

Thank you greatly for branching out my possibilities. Redemption is simply my first chosen candidate for possible ISP theme, so I'll take Horror of War and Racism into consideration. Although To Kill a Mockingbird was read in grade nine and out of the question.


The Naked and the Dead, A Farewell to Arms, maybe even Catch-22 could all fit in that theme as well...

Still trying to find some redemption literature...

Thanks for your interest! I'll certainly look into these books as well!


Post 1960 with a Redemption theme? I can think of no better than the First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R Donaldson. It's about a man who is already treading the line of his own Despair Event Horizon after he contracts leprosy, loses his family, gets completely ostracized by the society he lives in, and then loses his passion for writing, the only thing he ever excelled at. Thomas Covenant is pulled into another world (or maybe his own mind) by the Dark Lord Foul who wants to use Covenant to destroy the fantasy world he is trapped in.

Throughout the first trilogy, Covenant basically proves he's the scum of the earth. Everything he touches turns to death, despair and darkness. When his leprosy is cured, the sudden virility he feels overwhelms his senses and he ends up raping his companion. Whenever anyone lends a hand or a kind word to him, Covenant spits on their ideals, their generosity and their compassion. And he's supposed to be the Messiah figure in this world's mythology!

He goes through hell in these books, losing everything he thought he still had, including his health and perhaps sanity. Literally everyone he meets is utterly destroyed, spiritually assaulted by Lord Foul, who is more Cthulhu than Sauron and is the most brilliantly written, and horrifically vile villain in all of literature. Yes. I said that. By the end of the books though, Covenant does redeem himself by combating Lord Foul and ultimately realizing that even if The Land is just an illusion created by his dying brain, it's an illusion he cares about and is willing to die to protect.

Not for the faint of heart, at all. This is mature, dark, psychological fantasy at its absolute best.

My teacher asked for no series, but Thomas Covenant does seem interesting.


Hmm. "The Secret Garden" might work. Published 1910.

Hmm. It is a children's novel, so it may be disallowed, but it's worth a look.


Crime and Punishment is THE book for your theme - if you're talking about redemption, then you should also touch the problem of deeds to be redeemed for. It was written in the second half of 19th century.

Another obvious choice would be Lord Jim by Joseph Conrad - probably even a better fit. This one was published in pieces from October 1899 to November 1900, so it kind of fits the 1900-1960 era if you squint your eyes just right.

I'm out of wits, when it comes to modern literature, so that's it.

Crime and Punishment looks really fascinating, however I wonder if some of the meaning of the original Russian text that is lost in translation will make this a difficult read. I remember being suggested Lord Jim before as well.


If you are allowed to read theatrical works, I can suggest The Man Outside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Outside).

It's about a German soldier returning from Russia in the 50s, only to find that noone wants to deal with the uncomfortable past he embodies. All the while, he struggles with his own guilt over the things he did in the war.

I'll ask about it, certainly.


I strongly second the suggestion of Crime and Punishment. It is very worth reading, IMO. :smallsmile:

Agreed. :smallsmile:


Get the Richard Pevear & Larissa Volokhonsky translation if you can—while I haven't read another, it was very much of good quality. I've heard bad things about Constance Garnett, but again, no firsthand view.

Thanks for the heads up!

Everyone's input has helped give me a good start.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Crime and Punishment looks really fascinating, however I wonder if some of the meaning of the original Russian text that is lost in translation will make this a difficult read.
Don't worry about that. Well, do worry about it, actually, but only in the sense of asking around for a good translation instead of picking one at random. Otherwise, you'll deprive yourself of amazing works of literature just because you can't read the original.

And when the form of literature in question is "the novel" and the original language in question is "Russian", that's a pretty shocking thing to do to yourself. :smallsmile:

Now, for the 1900-1960 period and the Redemption theme, I have a bold, alternate suggestion: "The Stranger", by Albert Camus, 1942. Your teacher will have absolutely no objection (whatever "true" literature" is, it certainly includes that one), but both of you should be ready to think a bit outside the box.

This book is about complete and total lack of redemption, at least as commonly understood. There's a crime, and there's punishment for that crime, but the culprit is a man who isn't remotely interested in redeeming himself - though he may find some sort of peace in the end. It will make a nice contrast with the traditional takes on the subject, it may shed some light on what qualities should be present to make redemption possible or even desirable, and last but not least, it's a really great book.

[Gnoman]

Kipling's Captains Courageous might be a good example. The protagonist is a spoiled rich kid who falls of a boat and is rescued by fisherman, who make a man out of him. It's not evil-to-good redemption, but it's a similar character changer.

[JoeMac307]

Don't worry about that. Well, do worry about it, actually, but only in the sense of asking around for a good translation instead of picking one at random. Otherwise, you'll deprive yourself of amazing works of literature just because you can't read the original.

And when the form of literature in question is "the novel" and the original language in question is "Russian", that's a pretty shocking thing to do to yourself. :smallsmile:

Now, for the 1900-1960 period and the Redemption theme, I have a bold, alternate suggestion: "The Stranger", by Albert Camus, 1942. Your teacher will have absolutely no objection (whatever "true" literature" is, it certainly includes that one), but both of you should be ready to think a bit outside the box.

This book is about complete and total lack of redemption, at least as commonly understood. There's a crime, and there's punishment for that crime, but the culprit is a man who isn't remotely interested in redeeming himself - though he may find some sort of peace in the end. It will make a nice contrast with the traditional takes on the subject, it may shed some light on what qualities should be present to make redemption possible or even desirable, and last but not least, it's a really great book.

Ooh, I like the idea of having a counterpoint to the traditional theme of redemption... I wonder if the OP will? If you go that way, it opens up the field a lot... you could view 1984 as a twisted look at redemption or lack thereof, for example... Is Winston redeemed from the POV of the Party? Is O'Brien, and/or society in and of itself, beyond redemption?

Thinking that way makes you ask, what is redemption anyway? Is it realigning your perspective so that your actions come into accordance with the morals and ethics of your society / god / culture? Who or what determines what is moral and ethical - a social contract, genetic dispositions, and/or a ruling class? If redemption is changing your character so that you now live in a way that is in line with the prevailing ethical and moral norms of society, is 1984 a story of redemption? Brr... that's a chilling thought.

[pffh]

How about the Iceland's Bell by Halldór Laxness, 1943, (New York Times review of a 2004 translation: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/books/review/15LEITHAT.html?ex=1077426000&en=f0bff01c59525369&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE). I'm not sure how hard it is to find a copy but you can bet it will impress your teacher.

And for the pre 1900's some of the Icelandic Saga (most of them were written in the 12th-14th century) are full of this stuff but that might be going a little bit too far back. :smallbiggrin:

Or not enough since Homers Odyssey could also work.

[Yora]

I hear you, and will put this into consideration. I'm not dead set on pursuing Redemption as a theme. Honestly, I have read your posts in many sundry threads and you never fail to impress me with your insight and knowledge. :)
People often tell me that. Some call it a highly intelligent and curious mind, some call it hyperfocusing ADD, and some call it "can't you shut up for 5 minutes?". :smallbiggrin:
Thankfully I usually latch on understanding how the world works, so something useful comes from it. :smallwink:

On chosing a specific subject for your asignment, I suggest picking something you are already interested in and already have read about a lot. I don't know if part of it is reading books you have not read before, but even in that case it helps a lot when you are already familiar with common motives and patterns of the genre.
Writing about something that you are interested in and always wanted to know more about makes the thing a lot more difficult and time consuming. If you have already a basic understanding of the subject, then you have a much greater awareness for the finer details and unique aspects of the books you are working on.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Assuming that you're not meaning the time periods depicted in the book, for post-1960s redemption, I would /very/ much suggest Iain M. Banks' Use of Weapons. While I can't say redemption is the sole theme, it is a prominent theme, although I can't tell you all that much more about it without spoiling it, which I don't want to do.

It's science fiction, but it does very much focus on big themes, albeit with entertainment also being an element. I suggest doing an assignment on it just to give him a kick up the bum for being snooty. =P

However, it is one of the best books I've ever read. I /very/ much suggest it.

[Radar]

Ooh, I like the idea of having a counterpoint to the traditional theme of redemption... I wonder if the OP will? If you go that way, it opens up the field a lot...
It really is a solid idea. In writing esseys it is important not to repeat your points so including multiple books, that tell more or less the same story, is redundant. Well... unless you are more interesting in how the story is told or other details.

On chosing a specific subject for your asignment, I suggest picking something you are already interested in and already have read about a lot. I don't know if part of it is reading books you have not read before, but even in that case it helps a lot when you are already familiar with common motives and patterns of the genre.
Writing about something that you are interested in and always wanted to know more about makes the thing a lot more difficult and time consuming. If you have already a basic understanding of the subject, then you have a much greater awareness for the finer details and unique aspects of the books you are working on.
It depends. If your goal is to write one good essey with minimum work required, then a familiar subject is usualy a safer option. If your goal is to learn something, then expanding into unfamiliar territories is necessary. It makes all subsequent work easier, since you've hopefully gained some new perspective. In short: it's worth the effort.

[JoeMac307]

It depends. If your goal is to write one good essey with minimum work required, then a familiar subject is usualy a safer option. If your goal is to learn something, then expanding into unfamiliar territories is necessary. It makes all subsequent work easier, since you've hopefully gained some new perspective. In short: it's worth the effort.

That was my initial reaction to Yora's comment as well... that it depends on the circumstance - how much time do you have? What are your objectives? Is it to learn something, or to get a perfect grade? (Or both?) All important factors...

[Closet_Skeleton]

I didn't consider the difference before picking the theme, but I do remember my teacher commenting on the difference. Personally I would prefer repentance.

I find salvation more interesting to be honest. Repentance is basically just self proscribed punishment, while salvation is more like forgiving yourself (it can have religious meanings but that's still there even then). I don't thing repentance is a form of redemption at all, except where it leads to salvation. To go through a process of redemption you have to consider yourself in need of it. To complete the process you have to no longer need it. That's why self forgiveness is a nice simple way to have a redemption story.

Salvation is the end of the journey of redemption, repentance is the journey itself. So unless the characters in the story never get redeemed, you can't just focus on repentance. I was going to write hero rather than characters in that sentence, but then I remembered that my favourite redemption story is one where the good guys need redemption as much as the badguys

Problem is that repentance is pretty simple to define while salvation isn't without going into things off topic for this forum, which basically sidestep the question anyway and don't really answer it in my opinion.

You can really define redemption as what ever you want. For example, 'Death of a Salesman' can be interpreted as 'the tragedy of looking for redemption in the wrong places'. Lots of stories that aren't really about redemption also tack redemption on at the end, which can be problematic but also interesting to examine. For example Frankenstein ends with the monster's redemption as he decides not to go through with his vow to murder his creator. The question is there whether or not the plot twist goes against the plot or redefines it.

[Kurien]

Hello again, I showed my teacher a page with all of your suggestions on Monday, and after a quick scan he gave the go ahead for Crime and Punishment, A Farewell to Arms, and The Stranger. Thanks again for your input guys, being mostly ignorant to literature like most young people, it wasn't likely that I'd come up with these titles on my own. :smallsmile:

I asked him "but A Farewell to Arms and The Stranger are both from 1900-1960. :smallconfused:" His answer was that since one is about WWI and the other WWII, both are acceptable.

Now I just have to see about getting a copy of each. Does anyone know any good translations?


Get the Richard Pevear & Larissa Volokhonsky translation if you can—while I haven't read another, it was very much of good quality. I've heard bad things about Constance Garnett, but again, no firsthand view.

I will look for it, thank you. Right now I have the Norton Jessie Coulson translation.


Don't worry about that. Well, do worry about it, actually, but only in the sense of asking around for a good translation instead of picking one at random. Otherwise, you'll deprive yourself of amazing works of literature just because you can't read the original.

And when the form of literature in question is "the novel" and the original language in question is "Russian", that's a pretty shocking thing to do to yourself.

Now, for the 1900-1960 period and the Redemption theme, I have a bold, alternate suggestion: "The Stranger", by Albert Camus, 1942. Your teacher will have absolutely no objection (whatever "true" literature" is, it certainly includes that one), but both of you should be ready to think a bit outside the box.

This book is about complete and total lack of redemption, at least as commonly understood. There's a crime, and there's punishment for that crime, but the culprit is a man who isn't remotely interested in redeeming himself - though he may find some sort of peace in the end. It will make a nice contrast with the traditional takes on the subject, it may shed some light on what qualities should be present to make redemption possible or even desirable, and last but not least, it's a really great book.

Yes, this novel sounds like a thought-provoking counterpoint to the idea of redemption, and I see no problem reading it based on the premise you wrote.


Thinking that way makes you ask, what is redemption anyway? Is it realigning your perspective so that your actions come into accordance with the morals and ethics of your society / god / culture? Who or what determines what is moral and ethical - a social contract, genetic dispositions, and/or a ruling class? If redemption is changing your character so that you now live in a way that is in line with the prevailing ethical and moral norms of society, is 1984 a story of redemption? Brr... that's a chilling thought.


I find salvation more interesting to be honest. Repentance is basically just self proscribed punishment, while salvation is more like forgiving yourself (it can have religious meanings but that's still there even then). I don't thing repentance is a form of redemption at all, except where it leads to salvation. To go through a process of redemption you have to consider yourself in need of it. To complete the process you have to no longer need it. That's why self forgiveness is a nice simple way to have a redemption story.

Salvation is the end of the journey of redemption, repentance is the journey itself. So unless the characters in the story never get redeemed, you can't just focus on repentance. I was going to write hero rather than characters in that sentence, but then I remembered that my favourite redemption story is one where the good guys need redemption as much as the badguys

Problem is that repentance is pretty simple to define while salvation isn't without going into things off topic for this forum, which basically sidestep the question anyway and don't really answer it in my opinion.

You can really define redemption as what ever you want. For example, 'Death of a Salesman' can be interpreted as 'the tragedy of looking for redemption in the wrong places'. Lots of stories that aren't really about redemption also tack redemption on at the end, which can be problematic but also interesting to examine. For example Frankenstein ends with the monster's redemption as he decides not to go through with his vow to murder his creator. The question is there whether or not the plot twist goes against the plot or redefines it.

Sorry, my answer was due to lacking a full understanding of what Salvation meant. Now that you describe it as the goal which the repentant strive for, then I can see why it is more valuable to contemplate.

Hmm…so there are many interpretations of redemption (JoeMac’s is probably just as valid as the one I’m thinking of). The concept of redemption (inspired by ClosetSkeleton) I have is like this: the path taken by those seeking redemption must start with remorse or guilt over past actions. Then they undergo penance of some sort, which does not have to be physical, but can be psychological or emotional. In most cases, the person hopes for salvation, which is acceptance of their actions and could also be a measure of self-forgiveness. Does this sound right? What have I missed?


How about the Iceland's Bell by Halldór Laxness, 1943, (New York Times review of a 2004 translation: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/bo...partner=GOOGLE). I'm not sure how hard it is to find a copy but you can bet it will impress your teacher.

And for the pre 1900's some of the Icelandic Saga (most of them were written in the 12th-14th century) are full of this stuff but that might be going a little bit too far back.

Or not enough since Homers Odyssey could also work.

Thanks for the suggestion, although it wasn't picked. 12th-14th century is indeed a little old for this project, since it'll definitely be written in verse. Also, studying Homer's Odyssey is part of the curriculum already.


Assuming that you're not meaning the time periods depicted in the book, for post-1960s redemption, I would /very/ much suggest Iain M. Banks' Use of Weapons. While I can't say redemption is the sole theme, it is a prominent theme, although I can't tell you all that much more about it without spoiling it, which I don't want to do.

It's science fiction, but it does very much focus on big themes, albeit with entertainment also being an element. I suggest doing an assignment on it just to give him a kick up the bum for being snooty. =P

However, it is one of the best books I've ever read. I /very/ much suggest it.

I have read exactly one book by Iain Banks, titled Inversions. I agree that Banks is an excellent writer, and I definitely plan on reading Use of Weapons and other Culture novels eventually, but on my own time.


Kipling's Captains Courageous might be a good example. The protagonist is a spoiled rich kid who falls of a boat and is rescued by fisherman, who make a man out of him. It's not evil-to-good redemption, but it's a similar character changer.

Thank you for the suggestion.


On chosing a specific subject for your asignment, I suggest picking something you are already interested in and already have read about a lot. I don't know if part of it is reading books you have not read before, but even in that case it helps a lot when you are already familiar with common motives and patterns of the genre.
Writing about something that you are interested in and always wanted to know more about makes the thing a lot more difficult and time consuming. If you have already a basic understanding of the subject, then you have a much greater awareness for the finer details and unique aspects of the books you are working on.


It depends. If your goal is to write one good essey with minimum work required, then a familiar subject is usualy a safer option. If your goal is to learn something, then expanding into unfamiliar territories is necessary. It makes all subsequent work easier, since you've hopefully gained some new perspective. In short: it's worth the effort.

Yes, my teacher believes that most basic reason literature is read is to change the reader. He would be satisfied if his students learned something from reading unfamiliar literature, and seeing the influence in their written responses. I think this would reflect upon how he grades the study project.

I have until the Christmas break to complete all the reading diaries and the essay. As long as procrastination is kept minimal, that should be plenty of time.
Thanks again! :thumbsup:

[Maxios]

How about the Iceland's Bell by Halldór Laxness, 1943, (New York Times review of a 2004 translation: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/books/review/15LEITHAT.html?ex=1077426000&en=f0bff01c59525369&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE). I'm not sure how hard it is to find a copy but you can bet it will impress your teacher.

And for the pre 1900's some of the Icelandic Saga (most of them were written in the 12th-14th century) are full of this stuff but that might be going a little bit too far back. :smallbiggrin:

Or not enough since Homers Odyssey could also work.

How is the Odyssey about redemption? I mean, what version did you read because at the end of mine he killed all of the suitors, torured their leader by letting dogs eat his privates, then killed all of the maids that suitors had relations with, then was prepared to kill the fathers of the suitors :smallconfused:.

[HeadlessMermaid]

How is the Odyssey about redemption? I mean, what version did you read because at the end of mine he killed all of the suitors, torured their leader by letting dogs eat his privates, then killed all of the maids that suitors had relations with, then was prepared to kill the fathers of the suitors :smallconfused:.
Yes, and before that, he had killed and/or wronged an unimaginable number of people. Nobody cared about those, either, they don't even register as "crimes" in the context of the, errr... setting.

I'll venture a guess that pffh meant the Oresteia (org/wiki/Oresteia) and not the Odyssey, it's much more relevant. But still not quite applicable.


[SPOILER]In the Oresteia, there's a heinous crime, and a whole lot of guilt for it, and in the end the guilt's no more. However, it's not redemption that happens in between, it's Justice - as in, a court of law that finds Orestes innocent.

The whole point of the trilogy is that mankind is now mature enough to proclaim guilt or innocence by using law and reason, instead of relying on old superstitions that view the world in black and white and leave no room for nuance or mitigating factors. The instructions are clear: have a court of law, decide by voting, and err on the side of compassion.

Basically, it's a propaganda piece for the Athenian democracy and its legal system. The major themes are justice, crime, punishment and guilt - but remorse doesn't even come into play.

Orestes never says "I shouldn't have done this", he says "it was a horrible thing that I did and I feel awful about it, but I found myself in an impossible situation and I was justified to do it". He doesn't actually repent and he isn't redeemed at all in that sense. He is simply acquitted.

[snoopy13a]

Since Hemmingway is a very popular author, your local library should have A Farewell to Arms. In fact, your school library might have it. If not, your local bookstore will.

[pendell]

Yes, and before that, he had killed and/or wronged an unimaginable number of people. Nobody cared about those, either, they don't even register as "crimes" in the context of the, errr... setting.

I'll venture a guess that pffh meant the Oresteia (org/wiki/Oresteia) and not the Odyssey, it's much more relevant. But still not quite applicable.


I would argue that the story of the Odyssey is about the redemption of Odysseus. He angered the gods through his sin of taking Troy through treachery, and most of the subsequent events are of him having to work through the anger of the gods until they are, at last, willing to let him return home.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Radar]

I would argue that the story of the Odyssey is about the redemption of Odysseus. He angered the gods through his sin of taking Troy through treachery, and most of the subsequent events are of him having to work through the anger of the gods until they are, at last, willing to let him return home.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
It would be a big stretch: Poseidon cursed him, because he blinded the Cyclop. It had nothing to do with Troy. Besides, it's not like he didn't use treachery over and over again on his way home. If there is any moral to be learned there, it's "don't gloat and reveal your real name".

In Greek mythology deities weren't keen on morality and rarely treated mortals as something more then playthings.

[JoeMac307]

Hmm…so there are many interpretations of redemption (JoeMac’s is probably just as valid as the one I’m thinking of). The concept of redemption (inspired by ClosetSkeleton) I have is like this: the path taken by those seeking redemption must start with remorse or guilt over past actions. Then they undergo penance of some sort, which does not have to be physical, but can be psychological or emotional. In most cases, the person hopes for salvation, which is acceptance of their actions and could also be a measure of self-forgiveness. Does this sound right? What have I missed?

That concept of redemption sounds about right to me. My earlier point was that there is an interesting wrinkle to the theme of redemption, basically the tenets of moral philosophy.

Essentially, when you look at a character's journey towards redemption, you may want to ask yourself what inspired their guilt / remorse? What is the very nature of guilt? What does it say about the individual, what does it say about our species, and what does it say about the society the character is living in?

What I'm getting at is why does the character feel guilty, why does the character need redemption? Is it because they did something "against nature", such as killing their own child (as an extreme example)? Or did they do something that is seen as wrong in their culture / religion, such as some sort of heretical or blasphemous action, such as defaming Jesus or Mohammed? Did they commit a crime against their fellow citizens, such as theft or murder, or did they commit an act labeled criminal by society, such as speaking out against their country's beloved ruler?

Looking at the root of their guilt, and at the idea of whether their sense of guilt is inherent in their nature or a product of society, could added depth to your analysis and further your understanding of literature, philosophy and society.