Ways to get epic feats at epic levels

[ben-zayb]

Aside from the level bonus and epic class bonus, are there other ways to get epic feats? Chameleon? Human paragon? Chaos shuffling? Or not?


PS: no DWKs please.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anything that gives unspecified bonus feats, like chameleon or horizon walker, could do it.

If you're not stuck trying to squeeze all your feats into 20 levels though, why do you need to get them at an accelerated pace? Just be patient.

Epic play is completely borked anyway. Even if you skip epic spellcasting, which makes even the gods cry unless they have it too, the numbers simply don't work right anymore. Everything is super binary.

Hell, the numbers started to get out of hand even before epic.

[Roguenewb]

All Epic feats bear the [epic] tag. It is impossible to take an [epic] feat if you possess less than 21 character levels. It's somewhere in the ELH, as a preface to the feat section. It's annoying that the tag has rules text, but it's not the only place thats true, it also works a lot for spell descriptions.

[TuggyNE]

All Epic feats bear the [epic] tag. It is impossible to take an [epic] feat if you possess less than 21 character levels. It's somewhere in the ELH, as a preface to the feat section. It's annoying that the tag has rules text, but it's not the only place thats true, it also works a lot for spell descriptions.


My reading of the OP would be that he's looking for additional sources of [epic] feats once epic
DWK (whether true dragons or lesser dragons) inarguably receive epic feats at any level they want them; creatures of the Dragon type with a sufficient age category (Adult? or thereabouts) can take them whatever their HD, and DWK use similar age categories

[Alleran]

There's an epic item in Dragon #297 called the Codex Hammer (the Rosetta Stone is in the same article). Through using it, you can gain up to 31 bonus epic feats, as long as you pass the INT/skill check to get them. And it's epic levels, so if you don't have the stats to do it or aren't a spellcaster, you're doing it wrong anyway.

In any case, those 31 epic feats (32 if you count the Polyglot feat from the Rosetta Stone) can be freely Chaos Shuffled into whatever other epic feats you want, as long as you qualify for them. The best part? I'm fairly certain that the Codex Hammer only costs something on the order of 307k to purchase.

[TypoNinja]

DWK (whether true dragons or lesser dragons) inarguably receive epic feats at any level they want them; creatures of the Dragon type with a sufficient age category (Adult? or thereabouts) can take them whatever their HD, and DWK use similar age categories


It's "old" and I have to believe somebody made a mistake with that awkward phrasing, even without the DWK shenanigans, old dragons have an ECL way over 21st, old puts a typical true dragon into the 30's. Adult puts even the lesser types of true dragons comfortably into epic ECL's.

I'd really love to know why it doesn't just say "Dragons with an ECL over 20 qualify for epic feats." Or even not mention it at all, the ELH is implicit that at 21st level you get epic feats, why it needs specifying that dragons (or anything else for that matter) also get them is a mystery. Why they get them 10 levels late is just baffling.

Actually, this could potentially screw my dragon PC. Off to the Q&A thread with me!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm pretty sure that the intent of that particular bit of text was to highlight the fact that, at that time, all of the dragons in print that were old or older had more than 20HD, not to be considered a rule in and of itself.

Of course we all know how good the folks over at WotC are at making rules that reflect their intent. :smallamused:

Btw, the requirement for epic feats is 21HD, not ECL 21.

[Wings of Peace]

A 4th level Void Disciple can use Moment of Clarity to grant an ally "any" feat except for ancestor feats. By RAW this includes epic feats as long as they're not ancestor feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A 4th level Void Disciple can use Moment of Clarity to grant an ally "any" feat except for ancestor feats. By RAW this includes epic feats as long as they're not ancestor feats.

Oh hell. :smallannoyed:

Void disciple is broken too now. Someone please tell me the erratta caught this one. I'd check it myself, but I can't look at PDF's on this machine.

[Wings of Peace]

Oh hell. :smallannoyed:

Void disciple is broken too now. Someone please tell me the erratta caught this one. I'd check it myself, but I can't look at PDF's on this machine.

Nope. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can definitely Dark Chaos Shuffle any/all of your pre-epic feats into epic feats. Each shuffle takes two 8th level Cleric/Wizard spells (Transmutation [Chaotic] and Abjuration) and 500 xp.

From Shun the Dark Chaos:
If the subject possesses any Abyssal heritor feats, one of them is immediately removed and replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies (except an Abyssal heritor feat). The subject chooses both the feat lost and its replacement.

[TypoNinja]

Btw, the requirement for epic feats is 21HD, not ECL 21.

How so? ELH says "21st level" is that not ECL?


Oh hell. :smallannoyed:

Void disciple is broken too now. Someone please tell me the erratta caught this one. I'd check it myself, but I can't look at PDF's on this machine.

The Void disciple's power says nothing about not needing prerequisites, so strictly speaking, you are granted an epic feat for a few rounds, which you cannot make use of as you do not meet the prerequisites. If you don't meet the prerequisites of a feat you can't use it. Epic feats require Epic levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How so? ELH says "21st level" is that not ECL?

Level adjustment and ECL didn't exist when the 3.0 ELH was printed. The 3.5 SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm) is the current authority on the matter:

Epic Level Basics
Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How so? ELH says "21st level" is that not ECL?



The Void disciple's power says nothing about not needing prerequisites, so strictly speaking, you are granted an epic feat for a few rounds, which you cannot make use of as you do not meet the prerequisites. If you don't meet the prerequisites of a feat you can't use it. Epic feats require Epic levels.

That's right, you do have to meet a feats requirements to use it. :smallredface:

Maybe that's a sign it's time to turn in for the night.

[ben-zayb]

Actually I don't need a lot of those. Just wondering if my rogue special abilities can grant some epic feats. Please don't ask why I'm rolling rogue at epic. :smalltongue:

A DCFS cost 11k per feat on a scroll anyway, if I really just want some cheesy stuff.

[TypoNinja]

Level adjustment and ECL didn't exist when the 3.0 ELH was printed. The 3.5 SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm) is the current authority on the matter:

That's still talking about character level and not class level, ECL being effective character level, should still qualify.


Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher

Nowhere does it even imply you can't have an LA.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's still talking about character level and not class level, ECL being effective character level, should still qualify.



Nowhere does it even imply you can't have an LA.

Character level and Effective character level aren't the same thing.

Character level is the sum of your HD, while ECL is the sum of your HD and level adjustment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's still talking about character level and not class level, ECL being effective character level, should still qualify.

Nowhere does it even imply you can't have an LA.

Level Adjustment doesn't get counted onto your Character Level, only onto your ECL. Your Character Level (not counting LA) has to be at least 21 to take epic feats.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm):

Level
"Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

"Class level" is a character’s level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same.

From Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a):

Character Level

As noted in Part One, character level is the total of all the class levels and racial Hit Dice a creature has. Character level affects the following aspects of the character:

Feats.

As noted in Part One, a creature has one feat for its first level or Hit Die and gains another feat at each character level evenly divisible by three. Bonus feats the creature receives from its race or from any class levels the creature has are in addition to the feats it has gained from its character level.

Ability Increases.

A creature gains a +1 increase to one ability score every four character levels. This is not a bonus, but an outright increase. The improvement stacks with any temporary or permanent ability score bonuses the creature might receive.

Experience awards for single monsters.

When awarding experience for a monster that player characters have defeated, you must compare the PC's character level with the monster's Challenge Rating to determine how much experience to award; see page 37 in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

The next class level.

A creature's current character level determines how much experience the creature must earn before it can add its next class level, as shown on Table 3-2 in the Player's Handbook.

Cash and equipment.

Use character level when referring to Table 5-1 in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Effective Character Level (ECL)

When a character has a level adjustment, add her racial Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment to get her effective character level. Use effective character level instead of actual character level when determining the experience award the character receives for defeating a monster, the experience the character needs to reach her next class level, and for determining how much cash and equipment the character should have. Also use effective character level to decide when the character can select epic feats and when it gains an epic attack and save bonus (see page 209 in the Dungeon Master's Guide).

[Volthawk]

Level Adjustment doesn't get counted onto your Character Level, only onto your ECL. Your Character Level (not counting LA) has to be at least 21 to take epic feats.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm):


From Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a):

Er...right at the end of that second quote:


Also use effective character level to decide when the character can select epic feats and when it gains an epic attack and save bonus (see page 209 in the Dungeon Master's Guide).

From that, seems to me that you need ECL 21 to get epic feats, not character level 21.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The second quote isn't RAW. Rules of the Game articles are one writer interpreting the rules how he understands them to work.

The RAW is on page 209 of the DMG and reads:


The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creatures effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. Followed by the section on epic feats
The following feats are only available to epic characters, whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among [...] the feats described below.

Unfortunately the latter section doesn't make any mention of HD. It seems I was wrong. I apologize for trying to lead you astray.

[Wings of Peace]

The Void disciple's power says nothing about not needing prerequisites, so strictly speaking, you are granted an epic feat for a few rounds, which you cannot make use of as you do not meet the prerequisites. If you don't meet the prerequisites of a feat you can't use it. Epic feats require Epic levels.

"Strictly speaking" feat perquisites are only required if I want to learn a feat. Not to use it if I already have it. The prerequisite rule from Complete Warrior only applies to Prestige Class requirements.

[Glimbur]

Actually I don't need a lot of those. Just wondering if my rogue special abilities can grant some epic feats. Please don't ask why I'm rolling rogue at epic. :smalltongue:.

Sure, why not?

[TypoNinja]

"Strictly speaking" feat perquisites are only required if I want to learn a feat. Not to use it if I already have it. The prerequisite rule from Complete Warrior only applies to Prestige Class requirements.


Right off the SRD, top of the feats section. Bold mine.

Feats
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

So, the Void disciple power lets you squeeze by the selection process, then when you have the feat and attempt to make use of it, we see that you lack a prerequisite.

You must meet the prerequisites in order to use a feat even after selecting it. Take too much dex damage kiss your TWF goodbye until it heals.

[Wings of Peace]

Right off the SRD, top of the feats section. Bold mine.


So, the Void disciple power lets you squeeze by the selection process, then when you have the feat and attempt to make use of it, we see that you lack a prerequisite.

You must meet the prerequisites in order to use a feat even after selecting it. Take too much dex damage kiss your TWF goodbye until it heals.

Posting the relevant text from Complete Divine. Wonky text is cause I did a straight Ctr+C/Ctr+V from the pdf.



A void disciple of 4th level or higher can grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat (with the exception of ancestor feats). The void disciple must use a s t a n d a r d a c t ion to touch the target. The target gains either one feat or a number of ranks in one skill equal to his relevant ability modifi er for that skill.


Because the first sentence specifies that the Void Disciple grants the subject the ability to "perform" any skill or feat I believe this would fall under the rules for specific vs. general rules allowing the subject to use the feat they are granted.

[TypoNinja]

Posting the relevant text from Complete Divine. Wonky text is cause I did a straight Ctr+C/Ctr+V from the pdf.



Because the first sentence specifies that the Void Disciple grants the subject the ability to "perform" any skill or feat I believe this would fall under the rules for specific vs. general rules allowing the subject to use the feat they are granted.

Come on, don't quote out of context, we have no need at all to nitpick what the word 'preform' implies because the next sentence of the power spells out how it works.


The target gains either one feat or a number of ranks in one skill equal to his relevant ability modifier for that skill.


Target gains one feat. That's it. Just gain a feat, no "target does not need to meet the prerequisites" disclaimer. Power grants feat, feats require prerequisites to use, this power does not address any exception to the prerequisites rule.

[Wings of Peace]

Come on, don't quote out of context, we have no need at all to nitpick what the word 'preform' implies because the next sentence of the power spells out how it works.




Target gains one feat. That's it. Just gain a feat, no "target does not need to meet the prerequisites" disclaimer. Power grants feat, feats require prerequisites to use, this power does not address any exception to the prerequisites rule.

You're going to have to explain to me how this is out of context. We're debating the rules as written and the sentence preceding the one you are choosing to focus on says that the target gains the ability to perform the skill or feat.

Given that we're discussing the rules as written I also fail to see how nitpicking is a negative thing. If anything I would argue discussion calls for nitpicking.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Moment of Clarity (Su):
A void disciple of 4th level or higher can grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat (with the exception of ancestor feats). The void disciple must use a standard action to touch the target. The target gains either one feat or a number of ranks in one skill equal to his relevant ability modifier for that skill... The effect lasts for 1 round per level
of the void disciple.
I'd say it's pretty clear that you can grant someone any feat (except ancestor feats) for one round per class level of Void Disciple.

Granted, it's the exact same wording as what appears in the 3.0 version in Oriental Adventures. According to Amazon, OA was published in October 2001, and the Epic Level Handbook wasn't published until July 2002. It's clearly just a lazy copy-paste job from OA to fill up the worst edited book in all of 3.5, and I wouldn't expect any DM to allow this ability to grant anyone an epic feat unless they're already epic level.

[TypoNinja]

I'd say it's pretty clear that you can grant someone any feat (except ancestor feats) for one round per class level of Void Disciple.

Granted, it's the exact same wording as what appears in the 3.0 version in Oriental Adventures. According to Amazon, OA was published in October 2001, and the Epic Level Handbook wasn't published until July 2002. It's clearly just a lazy copy-paste job from OA to fill up the worst edited book in all of 3.5, and I wouldn't expect any DM to allow this ability to grant anyone an epic feat unless they're already epic level.

My argument hinges upon the fact that you are allowed to have a feat, but be unable to use it. The power GRANTS the feat, but not the ability to use it if you do not meet the prerequisites.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My argument hinges upon the fact that you are allowed to have a feat, but be unable to use it. The power GRANTS the feat, but not the ability to use it if you do not meet the prerequisites.

First sentence, "grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat." It explicitly bestows the ability to perform the feat's effect, regardless of all other circumstances.

[TypoNinja]

First sentence, "grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat." It explicitly bestows the ability to perform the feat's effect, regardless of all other circumstances.


You temporarily have the ability to preform a feat.

This could as easily be talking about access to the feat as it could using a feat, after all you do not have the ability to use a feat you don't have. Preform doesn't have a specific meaning under the rules, indeed quite a few feats are not preformed at all, you don't preform Extra Rage or Iron Will, you just have it.

It's easy to say you preformed a power attack, but not so much when you get into the feats with more passive powers, do you preform a weapon focus? Course not, you're just better with that weapon, through either practice or natural talent. If were going to hinge on the word preform, we are also saying you can only be granted feats that are actively preformed, but that would seem a little silly.

It's a nebulous statement, followed by one very specific statement that isn't ambiguous "target gains one feat". That statement fits into the rules very specifically, Target, and Feat, are specifically defined things in D&D.

Without an explicit exception to the rule that you must meet the prerequisites of a feat to use it, the standard rules on feats stand.

[Amphetryon]

Without an explicit exception to the rule that you must meet the prerequisites of a feat to use it, the standard rules on feats stand.
The verbiage from Void Disciple is being cited - with pretty good cause - as that explicit exception. Are you asking that the writers explicitly use verbiage that "this overrides the rule on page [X] that [Y]?"

[olentu]

The verbiage from Void Disciple is being cited - with pretty good cause - as that explicit exception. Are you asking that the writers explicitly use verbiage that "this overrides the rule on page [X] that [Y]?"

I think the real question is, does the ability allow people to leap attack while stunned, move while dazed, take full round actions while slowed, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's see if we can kill this void disciple thing.

On the one hand, the ability says it grants the target the ability to perform a feat.

On the other, the rules for feats say that if you don't qualify for a feat you have, you can't use it.

Since the former is specifc and the latter general, and as we all know "specific trumps general," the crux of the disagreement lies in the interpretation of whether the sentence that says you can "perform" a feat is a bit of fluff that is then explained by the sentences following, or part of the rules text itself.

If you interpret it as fluff, because perform is not a key-word, there's no problem. The feat rules are clear.

If, however, you interpret it to be rules text then you have to determine what perform means since it isn't a recognized key-word.

Perform in this context could be interpreted to mean that any feat can be granted and used normally, or it can be interpreted to mean that it can only grant feats that require an action, performance being something you -do- rather than something you have.

Because this is ambiguous, there is no definitive RAW answer. DM adjudication is required.

Some DM's may side with the sentence being a rule and choose one of the above interpretations, while others will adhere to occam's razor, and say that any feat you don't qualify for can't be activated since there is no unambiguous argument to the contrary.

That's really all there is to say on this, unless I've made some glaring oversight.

[TuggyNE]

I think the real question is, does the ability allow people to leap attack while stunned, move while dazed, take full round actions while slowed, etc.

"Final Ultimate Technique VOID FREEDOM SURGE!" :smallbiggrin:


It's the best parts of Void Disciple, freedom of movement, and Iron Heart Surge! They combine to give ultimate power!

[Jarveiyan]

PHB:
fighter - bonus feats(1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20) - must meet prereqs for the feats
monk - bonus feats(1,2,6) - doesn't need to meet prereqs to pick feats, however from massively less number of feats
ranger - combat style(2,6,11) - gets the feat(depending on which combat style picked) even if s/he doesn't meet the prereqs
rogue - special ability(10,13,16,19) - Feat just says s/he may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability[the only one that is vague]


Now do we see how specific you have to be when adjudicating feats gotten other than by 1stlvl and every 3rd lvl after?
I'll agree with Kelb_Panthera, if it doesn't mention having to meet the prereqs then it's implied since the cases where you don't are clarified.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Please note that, while I stated both sides of the argument, I haven't actually decided which side I fall on, and I don't think there is a RAW answer to be found.

I'm most likely to decide to houserule something in the middle, that is: choose the option of allowing only active feats to be gained with some restrictions for the sake of balance. Something along the line of any general feat that doesn't simply give a passive bonus sounds like it could be fun without being game-breaking.

[TypoNinja]

Please note that, while I stated both sides of the argument, I haven't actually decided which side I fall on, and I don't think there is a RAW answer to be found.


I tend to agree, because it is an ambiguous statement.

The power lacks the official sounding phrasing you usually see in rule exceptions. That's why I don't think it's an exception. Though somebody more generous than me might think the phrasing there is enough.

Here's why I don't though.

Stuff like the monks bonus feats for example.

Bonus Feat


At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

And some of the PHB2 text.


A monk with the Stunning
Fist feat can select Fiery Ki Defense as her bonus
feat at 6th level, as long as she also possesses the
Fiery Fist feat (other prerequisites can be ignored).

Or the rangers



If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

Fighter bonus feats


At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

The Wizard


At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

The pattern we see here is that when you gain access to a new feat they really spell it out, weather you need to meet prerequisites or not, they get really specific about it. None of these are in any way vague on if you need to have the prerequisites or not. And there's a certain consistency of phrasing about it.

And then the void disciple goes and doesn't say at all.

In my mind, that's a power begging for some errata, however as we're not likely to get it, my first thought on seeing the lack the magic phrase is to use the default rules on Feats. With no strong text spelling out an exception we stick with the general. Compared to the language of other bonus feat sources something like "Ability to preform" is just too weak and generic a statement to base a rules exemption on.

[ben-zayb]

The pattern we see here is that when you gain access to a new feat they really spell it out, weather you need to meet prerequisites or not, they get really specific about it. None of these are in any way vague on if you need to have the prerequisites or not. And there's a certain consistency of phrasing about it.

With that in mind, then the Rogue's special ability trumps Void Disciple's any day, doesn't it?



Feat
A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

[TypoNinja]

With that in mind, then the Rogue's special ability trumps Void Disciple's any day, doesn't it?

Well no, it'd be in the same category from my point of view, lacking specific exemption it defaults to the standard rules on feats.

[Jarveiyan]

This is how I would adjudicate the Void Disciples ability - have them pick a feat that they themselves could pick and the person using the feat can meet prereqs for. If they themselves can't use the feat how are they going to be able to impart such ability on anyone else? And if that person has the inability to understand such concepts how are they supposed to use such knowledge in the first place?

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is how I would adjudicate the Void Disciples ability - have them pick a feat that they themselves could pick and the person using the feat can meet prereqs for. If they themselves can't use the feat how are they going to be able to impart such ability on anyone else? And if that person has the inability to understand such concepts how are they supposed to use such knowledge in the first place?

By tapping the void. The crux of the PrC's fluff is that there is a layer of reality that can be percieved only by the dedicated few, and perception of this layer of reality grants the practitioner insight into the inner workings of reality. This allows him to unlock the potential in himself and others, regardless of his own current ability.

It's based on a real-world philosophy that some people hold.

[Jarveiyan]

Then in that case everyone (else) has it right - there should be no strictures to this ability that can allow a non-epic void disciple impart the ability to use a epic feat to another non-epic character or NPC. Thereby totally breaking any semblance of balance whatsoever. If that's the case we should all play Void Disciples, there's no reason not to, and all the reason to do just that.

[ben-zayb]

Well no, it'd be in the same category from my point of view, lacking specific exemption it defaults to the standard rules on feats.

Well, a rogue starts getting one at level 10, then 3 more times at 13, 16, and 19. Permanently.

EDIT: But then again, epic levels are required. It's jut that the rogue has the quantitative advantage I guess.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then in that case everyone (else) has it right - there should be no strictures to this ability that can allow a non-epic void disciple impart the ability to use a epic feat to another non-epic character or NPC. Thereby totally breaking any semblance of balance whatsoever. If that's the case we should all play Void Disciples, there's no reason not to, and all the reason to do just that.

I'm assuming this is a response to what I said?

We can't be certain which group has it right. Exactly how much potential a void disciple is able to tap may be a function of the target's current ability.

My point was that there's a logical argument to be made for both sides of the issue, both mechanically and for the fluff.

Without any official, unambiguous word on the matter the correct answer is the one that works best for your group.

In fact, the best answer for your group is the right one, regardless of any official word on the matter.

[Wings of Peace]

Then in that case everyone (else) has it right - there should be no strictures to this ability that can allow a non-epic void disciple impart the ability to use a epic feat to another non-epic character or NPC. Thereby totally breaking any semblance of balance whatsoever. If that's the case we should all play Void Disciples, there's no reason not to, and all the reason to do just that.

There's plenty of reasons not to. Lots of other PRC abilities do things more useful than what Epic Feats do.

[lianightdemon]

DMG page 209

"Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the ones in the Player's Handbook or one of the feats described below. "

Below are the epic feats, I imagine this also includes other books for feats and epic feats. This suggests that any new feat a character gains beyond 21ist level can either be a non epic feat or an epic feat. I imagine if the feats are restricted such as having to metamagic or fighter feats that they must still fit that criteria but can be epic metamagic or epic fighter feats.