Monsters with Will saves [3.5]

[Drenn]

It's my first time DMing a 3.5 game and its going phenomenally well. My players are awesome and super invested in the plot and their own character development, the city and the surrounding wilderness (where the entire campaign will take place) are really coming to life, the NPCs are respected and everyone is leveling nicely.

Here's my problem. It's primarily a party of casters in one form or another, and my last couple of encounters have been, well, not as climactic as I would have liked. Specifically, the party consists a wizard, a druid, a beguiler, a cleric, a ranger and a fighter. Monsters and villains are dropping left right and center to anything involving a Will save. Were-creatures, which feature heavily in this coastal city campaign (moon-ocean connection), have become a joke because they fall asleep before they get a chance to transform, and then the fighter one-shots them. Anything that shakes off the sleep spell gets glitter dusted, hypnotized, ect. and stands around to get killed or is forced to flee.

I think its awesome how tactically and carefully the players are approaching each encounter, but I would like for monsters to become a threat again at some point. I have other means of introducing danger such as traps, political and social dangers, and so forth, and do use them, but... I kinda want an interesting monster encounter at some point, and I think they do to.

Any ideas on monsters I should be using, or 3.5 tactics for dealing with this many casters?

[LTwerewolf]

Undead are immune to a lot of those effects, don't be afraid to sprinkle in different typed creatures. Also remind them that the more they use one tactic, the more their enemies will hear about it and plan accordingly.

There're a bunch of ways around it, just get creative.

[Pilo]

Half-elves are immune to sleep and resist better against enchantements, werebat have blindsense, many were-* have scent.

An illusionist can hide a part of an encounter behind a false wall.

Were-thing are friends with animals of their kind, if a lot of animal attack the party, and the party kill them merciless, make the party become evil and punish the druid for not protecting the Wild.

[Bakkan]

Humanoids with caster levels are also a good option. They'll naturally have a high Will save (and an excellent one if a cleric), and a team of baddies with one counterspell specialist can turn what would be a curbstomp into a dangerous fight. Note that this may require somewhat more work on your part, as casters can be time-consuming to build completely.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How do the PCs know they're Lycanthropes if they haven't changed yet? If you're making it obvious, of course they're walking all over them. If they're shooting first and asking questions afterward, use some RP/dialogue encounters with non-hostiles. Have them run across a bunch of harmless peasants, they'll act extremely nervous and suspicious because they'll suspect that the PCs are lycanthropes. Do it a few times, but occasionally mix in a few lycanthropes disguised as peasants. If they kill everyone, the local authorities will come after them for murdering innocent people.

Different creature types (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types) get different base saves. Aberrations, Dire Animals, Dragons, Fey, Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, and Undead all get good Will saves for any racial HD they have.

The spell Sleep has a 1 round casting time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime), which means they spend their entire turn casting on the turn they declare it, and don't produce any effect at all until the beginning of their next turn in initiative. Everything else gets to take one turn while they're casting it, and any damage they take will force a Concentration check to avoid losing the spell.

Don't make it obvious they've encountered Lycanthropes until they've already had a chance to act and transform. Be aware of the casting times of the spells they're casting. Mix up the encounters a bit, don't always throw the same kind of creatures at them.

[laeZ1]

In the end, remember that you're the DM. I've had to bend a few rules to keep my games interesting. From giving the creature a higher save than it says in the book to giving some poisonous fangs (etc). This works wonders with a game that consists of players with a lot of experience, (the sort of player that might study the MM in their free time) So long as they respect that it's the DM's game, it keeps it fresh and lively.

[Drenn]

Humanoids with caster levels are also a good option. They'll naturally have a high Will save (and an excellent one if a cleric), and a team of baddies with one counterspell specialist can turn what would be a curbstomp into a dangerous fight. Note that this may require somewhat more work on your part, as casters can be time-consuming to build completely.

I like this idea. Humanoids in a city-based campaign make a lot of sense too.

[Drenn]

Different creature types (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types) get different base saves. Aberrations, Dire Animals, Dragons, Fey, Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, and Undead all get good Will saves for any racial HD they have.

The spell Sleep has a 1 round casting time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime), which means they spend their entire turn casting on the turn they declare it, and don't produce any effect at all until the beginning of their next turn in initiative. Everything else gets to take one turn while they're casting it, and any damage they take will force a Concentration check to avoid losing the spell.

Don't make it obvious they've encountered Lycanthropes until they've already had a chance to act and transform. Be aware of the casting times of the spells they're casting. Mix up the encounters a bit, don't always throw the same kind of creatures at them.

...
...
...
Sleep has a 1 round casting time? Are you serious?
...
Like I said, I'm new at this, and most of my players are new to 3.5 as well. Before this, they all played 4e. ... I ... wow. I just went did some research. My players have been treating every single spell as a standard action, including hypnotism and sleep. This... this would explain a lot. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. We will be having a discussion about how to read our spells properly at the beginning of next session. I just... wow....

Also, the info about which creatures have good will saves is really helpful. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Drenn]

In the end, remember that you're the DM. I've had to bend a few rules to keep my games interesting. From giving the creature a higher save than it says in the book to giving some poisonous fangs (etc). This works wonders with a game that consists of players with a lot of experience, (the sort of player that might study the MM in their free time) So long as they respect that it's the DM's game, it keeps it fresh and lively.

Good thought. I'm always unsure where to draw the DM fudging line. I'm typically of the belief that the rules should support the world, not visa versa, but I'm never quite sure what's permissible bending, and what isn't.

[Runestar]

You can restat your monsters to be more resistant to will-save effects.

Tome of battle has moment of precise mind, which any monster can access via a feat.

PHB2 has steadfast determination (add con to will saves instead of wis). Mad foam rager lets you delay an effect for 1 round.

MIC has gear which help boost will saves as well.

Templates like monster of legend can offer immunity to mind-affecting effects.

[rot42]

Your party has six people, which is more than the standard four assumed by the CR system. Adding more monsters helps avoid the focused fire problem (although I think you have exactly the right attitude that it is great that they are using smart tactics). I have had some good fun adding Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) to various monsters both by substituting feat choices and by adding class levels. The Lost template (same book) gives anything an ability similar to the Rogue's Slippery Mind (along with a fair few other goodies) for +1 CR.

The list of creature types and which ones get good Will saves starts on page 305 of the Monster Manual I.

I have found the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) from the SRD to be enormously useful.

[Eldariel]

Were-creatures are also humanoids. That means they're very likely to have class levels. Werewolf Cleric of e.g. Karaan [Greyhawk Deity of Lycanthropy] would be a frightening thing and definitely resilient to will-saves. And like mentioned, Elves have some natural immunities. There are also feats and abilities (Warblade from Tome of Battle gets an ability to use Concentration-check instead of a Will-save on level 1 for instance) that make it harder to make people fall asleep.

And of course, if the foes notice the players first (they can have superior Spot and be aware that the players are hunting for them, after all) they can also spread out, ready actions to interrupt casting and so forth (remember, sufficiently intelligent creatures will probably try to get to the spellcasters first as magic tends to be more devastating than martial abilities so if somebody can, they will try to sneak up on the casters, or just circle around the martial types). They can also simply stay in looser formations in the open making it hard to get multiples in single AOE. And of course, creatures can have magic items that help to defend against Save-or-Xs too.


Monstrous Humanoids (e.g. Centaurs or Harpies) have good Will-saves and they might make sense thematically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An expert with a wand of dispel magic and ranks in UMD can counterspell pretty well, I think.

It's really simple to build, and if used sparingly can be a good way to make sure casters don't curb-stomp important encounters before the upper end of mid-level.

[dspeyer]

Perhaps the Big Bad is a 15th level cleric (whom your players won't be fighting soon) and he provided his minions with Mind Blank?

[lunar2]

you can keep using lycanthropes, too. use dire animals as the base animal (good will save), and use a Wis based class that gets a good will save. mad classes work well with lycathropes, too, because of the ability score bonuses the animal/hybrid forms get. i don't know what level you are, but here's an example:

half elf monk 2/ dire werebadger
Medium Humanoid (elf; shapechanger)
HD: 2D8+2 + 3d8+15 (43 hp; 53 in rage)
Initiative: +6 (+9 in hybrid or animal forms)
Speed: 30 ft.; burrow 10 ft. in animal form
AC: 17 (+2 dexterity, +3 wisdom, +2 natural armor) FF: 12 touch: 15 (hybrid/animal AC: 23 FF: 15 touch: 18; -2 in rage)
BAB/Grapple:3/8 (hybrid/animal 10; 12 in rage)
attack: unarmed strike +3 (1d6+1 bludgeoning); hybrid/animal form unarmed strike + 5/7 (1d6+3/5) or claw +5/7 (1d4+3/5 slashing and piercing)
full attack: unarmed strike + 1/+1 (1d6+1); hybrid/animal form unarmed strike +3\5/+3\5 (1d6+3/5) and 2 claws +1/3 (1d4+1/2) and bite +1/3 (1d6+1/2)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special attacks: Rage, Flurry of Blows, Curse of Lycanthropy
Special Qualities: low-light vision, scent, immunity to sleep, +2 saves against enchantment, change shape, DR 10/silver, Evasion, Lycanthropic Empathy
Saves: fort +7 Ref +8 will + 11; animal/hybrid: fort + 11/13 ref +11 will +11
abilities: Str: 13 (17\21) Dex: 14 (20) Con: 12 (20/24) Int: 10 Wis: 17 Cha: 8
Skills: Listen 15, Spot 15, Balance 7/10, Tumble 7/10, Search 1, Diplomacy 1, Gather Information 1
Feats: Alertness (b), track (b), iron will (b), improved grapple (b), combat reflexes (b), improved unarmed strike (b), any 2 others
CR: 5

personally, I'd trade out the monk's evasion for mettle, since will saves are what you are having a problem with.

[ericgrau]

Another trick with humanoids is that ranged foes (whether mundane or casters) should ready an action to disrupt casting the moment they see a PC in cloth robes. Besides that casters have a lot of options like silence.

Since sleep takes 1 round to cast the caster is an especially easy target to disrupt. "1 round", not "1 full round action" means it doesn't complete until the beginning of his next turn.

Variety of foes is good but I think building monsters specifically around the PC's tactics is a bit heavy handed. Not that the above build isn't handy, I'd just tone down the specific PC targeting a bit. Maybe go half-orc since that's more generally useful and not tailored to the PCs.

[hewhosaysfish]

Perhaps the Big Bad is a 15th level cleric (whom your players won't be fighting soon) and he provided his minions with Mind Blank?

At lower levels, Protection from <Whatever-Alignment-Is-Most-Common-Amongst-Your-Spellcasters> will give a +2 bonus on saving throws and can be cast by a level 1 Cleric, Wizard or Sorceror.
Magic Circle Against <Whatever>, is available to a 5th level caster, and gives the effect of Protection from Whatever to a target and everyone within 10ft.

[Randomguy]

Remember that monsters can take character levels too. A level or two of monk can really beef up a monster's saves. There are tons of classes with good will saves to choose from, if monk doesn't fit.

You can also customize monsters: it's not necessary to use the listed feats. Give Iron Will to some of them and they might be a bit harder to take down.

You could also use monsters with high HD, but low CR, (there aren't a lot but they do exist) so they won't get affected by sleep or hypnotism.

And of course, there are monsters with good Will saves, like Outsiders and Dragons.

[Drenn]

Your party has six people, which is more than the standard four assumed by the CR system. Adding more monsters helps avoid the focused fire problem (although I think you have exactly the right attitude that it is great that they are using smart tactics). I have had some good fun adding Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) to various monsters both by substituting feat choices and by adding class levels. The Lost template (same book) gives anything an ability similar to the Rogue's Slippery Mind (along with a fair few other goodies) for +1 CR.

The list of creature types and which ones get good Will saves starts on page 305 of the Monster Manual I.

I have found the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) from the SRD to be enormously useful.

Oooh! The shiny! Thanks for the link! :smallsmile:

[Drenn]

you can keep using lycanthropes, too. use dire animals as the base animal (good will save), and use a Wis based class that gets a good will save. mad classes work well with lycathropes, too, because of the ability score bonuses the animal/hybrid forms get. i don't know what level you are, but here's an example:

half elf monk 2/ dire werebadger
Medium Humanoid (elf; shapechanger)
HD: 2D8+2 + 3d8+15 (43 hp; 53 in rage)
Initiative: +6 (+9 in hybrid or animal forms)
Speed: 30 ft.; burrow 10 ft. in animal form
AC: 17 (+2 dexterity, +3 wisdom, +2 natural armor) FF: 12 touch: 15 (hybrid/animal AC: 23 FF: 15 touch: 18; -2 in rage)
BAB/Grapple:3/8 (hybrid/animal 10; 12 in rage)
attack: unarmed strike +3 (1d6+1 bludgeoning); hybrid/animal form unarmed strike + 5/7 (1d6+3/5) or claw +5/7 (1d4+3/5 slashing and piercing)
full attack: unarmed strike + 1/+1 (1d6+1); hybrid/animal form unarmed strike +3\5/+3\5 (1d6+3/5) and 2 claws +1/3 (1d4+1/2) and bite +1/3 (1d6+1/2)
Space/Reach: 5/5
Special attacks: Rage, Flurry of Blows, Curse of Lycanthropy
Special Qualities: low-light vision, scent, immunity to sleep, +2 saves against enchantment, change shape, DR 10/silver, Evasion, Lycanthropic Empathy
Saves: fort +7 Ref +8 will + 11; animal/hybrid: fort + 11/13 ref +11 will +11
abilities: Str: 13 (17\21) Dex: 14 (20) Con: 12 (20/24) Int: 10 Wis: 17 Cha: 8
Skills: Listen 15, Spot 15, Balance 7/10, Tumble 7/10, Search 1, Diplomacy 1, Gather Information 1
Feats: Alertness (b), track (b), iron will (b), improved grapple (b), combat reflexes (b), improved unarmed strike (b), any 2 others
CR: 5

personally, I'd trade out the monk's evasion for mettle, since will saves are what you are having a problem with.

Were-badger! This is... awesomeness in a stat block. What alignment would a were-badger be anyway? Thanks so much for this!

[Drenn]

Variety of foes is good but I think building monsters specifically around the PC's tactics is a bit heavy handed. Not that the above build isn't handy, I'd just tone down the specific PC targeting a bit. Maybe go half-orc since that's more generally useful and not tailored to the PCs.

Good thought. Like I said, I think its awesome the level of tactical thinking their using, and I don't want to punish them for being smart about their approach.

[Drenn]

Remember that monsters can take character levels too. A level or two of monk can really beef up a monster's saves. There are tons of classes with good will saves to choose from, if monk doesn't fit.

You can also customize monsters: it's not necessary to use the listed feats. Give Iron Will to some of them and they might be a bit harder to take down.

You could also use monsters with high HD, but low CR, (there aren't a lot but they do exist) so they won't get affected by sleep or hypnotism.

And of course, there are monsters with good Will saves, like Outsiders and Dragons.

Character levels is definitely something I've been neglecting, partially due to inexperience and partially due to having limited prep time. I think all of these ideas will go a long way towards solving the problem.

[TuggyNE]

Were-badger! This is... awesomeness in a stat block. What alignment would a were-badger be anyway? Thanks so much for this!

Hard to say. Chaotic Neutral, perhaps? There's no really good guidelines that I know of for determining alignment, since all relevant animals are TN to begin with; lycanthrope alignment is basically "does this animal seem like a jerk to me, or kinda cool". (No, seriously.) So I basically eyeballed "badgers seem kinda loners and also a little bit disordered, what with their rage thing, so Chaotic, but not especially good or bad, so Neutral".

[lunar2]

lycanthropes that aren't published are whatever alignment the DM wants them to be. for example, when i think badger, i think Redwall, so badgers are big on honor and justice/vengeance, so i think they could be lawful. the only reason rage is associated with chaos is because of barbarians, anyway. think of all the hatred and anger some politicians show when the world doesn't follow their ideology. if they were DnD characters, definitely rogue/barbarian.