Paladin 3.5 build suggestions?

[dialdial]

Hello everyone.

I am starting a new 3.5 campaign and I am thinking about creating a Human Paladin. I just started playing Dungeons & Dragons the first of this year, and my current character is a Half-Orc Barbarian / Fighter. The DM set me up with this because of the simplicity; however, I've proven in-game to be much more polite and lawful than I should be, and I also do much more research on the mechanics of the game. My group did an anonymous survey, and it was unanimous that I should switch to a Paladin.

The basic stats for our campaigns are very high. We do not roll, we assign each stat to a per-determined number. Here is the stat list, before any racial modifiers are taken into account.

18
17
17
16
16
14

I plan on filling the roll of a melee attacker (~80%) and backup spell caster (~20%); however, I do not know if I would use the special mount. With where we go, it would not be utilized that frequently, plus we plan on LARPing some of the campaign. Also, the prestige class I am looking at is the Shining Blade of Heironeous.

I was wondering if anyone could provide suggestions on how I can populate the stats and what feats would benefit me the most. I've done a lot of research the past few days, but it seems as though every resource I find contradicts one of the others. Thank you for your time and I appreciate any feedback

[Darius Kane]

Cleric/Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin).

[Gavinfoxx]

Don't play the Paladin class if you want to play a Paladin.

At least not the one in the PHB.

There are several alternatives that work great for the 'divinely powered warrior that smites evil' concept.

Namely:

Cleric
Crusader
Cloistered Cleric
Druid
Shapeshifting Druid
Ardent (this is debatable...)
Mystic or Favored Soul (I prefer Mystic)
Spirit Shaman
Mystic Ranger
Wild Shape Ranger
Pathfinder Paladin
Prestige Paladin
A heavily homebrewed Paladin Fix (like the Tome Paladin, or others)

[eggs]

An anonymous survey that you should switch classes? :smallyuk:

Anyway, just as a heads-up about Paladins, they can be hard to build well. They have a lot of good resources at their disposal, but it's rarely straightforward and the bits of it that exist in the core books are hidden in weird places.

The four useful things the class has going for it are:

Divine Grace - if you can afford a high charisma, your saves will be killer
Turn Undead - the ability itself sucks, but it powers Devotion feats from complete champion, which give the Paladin a huge power boost
Special Mount - the horse is decent, but not great. But if you crack open the Dungeon Master's guide and find some of the alternate mounts, they can be like adding a second, better, fighter to the party - especially if you play up the shared spells.
Spells - Again, the core options kind of suck, but if you can open the Spell Compendium, there are some useful options there, and there are some feats that give it a big boost in Champions of Valor and Complete Champion. It sounds like you're planning on using spells in a broader sense than Paladins can really do well; with supplements, their spell list is good for self-buffing, but is pretty awful for a "party spellcaster" role.

Your stats are ridiculous. That's really nice on a paladin, as you get to skip the normally defining decision of prioritizing Charisma or Wisdom. You'll want to put the 18 in strength and the 14 in Int. Then probably the 17s in Con and Cha.

For feats, you're probably going to want to give the Devotion feats in Complete Champion a long look. Animal, Earth, Travel and Law, especially. (The guide I link below emphasizes different devotions, and in that case I disagree with it - Travel Devotion gives movement + full attacks, which is what most melee classes only dream of; Earth Devotion gives the Paladin a degree of battlefield control that can break enemy charges, deny enemy tumbles and bypass terrain and enemy control effects as an immediate action; and Law Devotion is just a big chunk of +attack; but Animal Devotion is pure unadulterated amazing).

For the mount, remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be something you ride. The DMG lists a Large monstrous spider as one of the options, which at worst can be a useful web-turret and Dire Badger, which is Medium, a decent combatant if you play up the spell-sharing/pick good feats and able to bypass big chunks of dungeons with its burrowing. In either case, committing the Mount to a Vow of Poverty is crazy cheesy, but a strong option and not totally out of character for a Paladin class feature.

Or you could trade the mount away, in which case, I'd strongly recommend prestige classing out - Ruby Knight Vindicator (Tome of Battle), Fist of Raziel (Book of Exalted Deeds), Bone Knight (Five Nations), Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) and Ordained Champion (Complete Champion) are all very good.

Other than that, you might want to check out this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007) guide to get an idea of the resources at your disposal. I don't always agree with the guide, but it does at least point out most of the Paladin's relevant resources.

[Snowbluff]

Ordained Champion. It makes being a Paladin awesome. Combo with Prestige Paladin, the ruling that give you their spell list, Battle Blassing, and the Spontaneous Divine caster variant, and you'll have a versatile fighter with a decent spell list. You'll be able to Spontaneously cast all of your Paladin and War Spell as Swift actions.

I actually made one of these. I use DMM Persisted Divine Power and Holy Sword (Never pay for a magic weapon!). Luminous Armor (BoED) is pretty screwed up and flavorful. Combo with a Monk's Belt.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Before you actually make a paladin, sit down with your DM and have a discussion about morality as it pertains to the alignment system and the paladin's CoC.

Disagreements over these subjects can make playing a paladin anywhere between frustrating and impossible.

With that out of the way, it would be helpful if you could give us some information about your party's composition.

Things like, how many other players are there? What classes are they? What is your group's general optimization level ? If you're not sure of the group's op level, a sampling of some of the other characters' signature combat actions would be helpful.

The good folks here can give you the information to make the "most powerful" paladin that 3.5 can produce, but having a target power level to aim for will get you more appropriate advice.

[Piggy Knowles]

With those stats, you could make a pretty bangin' From Smite to Song paladin.

From Smite to Song is a feat that allows you to trade your smite uses for inspire courage as a bard equal to your paladin level. Combine it with the Harmonious Knight class features (which give you non-scaling bardic music), and you can do some very fun stuff.

The biggest problem with it is that paladins are already pretty MAD, and the best inspire courage booster (Words of Creation) requires a 15 in a dump stat. But with those stats, that isn't really an issue.

Something like...

Silverbrow Human, Paladin 20 (using the Harmonious Knight substitution levels)

1- Dragonfire Inspiration, From Smite to Song
3- Power Attack
6- Extra Smiting
9- Song of the Heart
12- Words of Creation
15- Lingering Song
18- Travel Devotion

Feel free to mess around with the feats. I'd definitely keep DFI, From Smite to Song, Song of the Heart and Words of Creation. Extra Smiting will also be pretty important in the early to mid levels, since your Harmonious Knight inspire courage starts to flag pretty quickly, and you only have a couple of smite attempts for your more powerful Smite-based inspire courage.

All the other feats are optional. Power Attack is there because you're still a melee beast, and the +14 to attack you can pick up certainly helps you PA without feeling the hurt. Lingering Song is so that you can do things like inspire greatness and inspire courage at the same time, or use both the dragonfire and regular version of inspire courage to give both a +14 morale bonus to attack and damage and +14d6 fire damage on the party's attacks. Travel Devotion will open up some tactical movement, although it might be worth dropping, especially if you're mostly mounted. Other options include the Mounted Combat/Spirited Charge line, Battle Blessing for a more caster-y focus, and various other devotion feats (Animal Devotion gives you flight, for instance, and Law Devotion is always good).

For stats, stick the 14 in Dex and the 16 in Intelligence, and you can't really go wrong with the rest.

[lsfreak]

Second Ordained Champion. Relatively simple build is Cleric/Ordained Champion/Filler (probably a level in Prestige Paladin and then Sacred Exorcist). More complex would be Crusader/Cleric/Ordained Champion/Ruby Knight Vindicator (refluffed)/Filler.

Cleric makes a good paladin standin - grab Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist and enough turn attempts for one or two persisted spells and you've got the basics. Ordained Champion adds smiting and turning your spells into melee damage or the like, making it even more paladin-like. Devotion Feats (especially Law Devotion, imo) help round out a concept. Crusader and Ruby Knight Vindicator add the front-line protector, more melee options, and more turning Turn Undead attempts into other options, but is much more complex. Going all of these you'll run into roadblocks with the number of Turn Undead attempts you have to burn, so either just choose one or two, or consult your DM about stacking multiple forms (alternative Turn Undead on cleric + base Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist) or stacking nightsticks.

Using a DMM cleric as a base,
Cleric1: Grab War domain (Weapon Focus) and Planning domain (Extend Spell); as your first level feat grab Persist Spell and as your human bonus DMM: Persist. With an 18 in Cha, you get one Persisted spell here at 1st level. You could rearrange things for Extra Turning feat or Undeath domain (grants Extra Turning) if you don't have 18 Cha, just make sure by 4th level you have Weapon Focus.
Instead of normal Turning, use Destroy Undead from Castle Ravenloft

Cleric4/Ordained Champion1: You get a bonus domain here - grab Undeath if your DM is okay with it, if not Protection is a thematically appropriate one.

Cleric4/OC2: Turn Undead attempts become Smites! Now you're a paladin. Though with Persist Spell, you're probably a bit tight on spare attempts.

Cleric4/OC2/+1/Sarced Exorcist1: You now have two pools of turn attempts, Destroy Undead and Turn Undead. Awesome. That's 6 + twice your Cha + twice any other bonuses (Undeath domain, Extra Turning feat, nightstick(s))

After that it's up to you. The +1 could be more Ordained Champion, or pick up Mounted Combat earlier and grab a level in Prestige Paladin to pick up all those paladin-only spells. Continuing on, a simple solution would be finishing Ordained Champion and then Sacred Exorcist. Bone Knight is another option, but needs refluffing.

At some point you want to grab Holy Warrior - as long as you've got an open spell slot of 4th level or higher, you get its spell level as a damage bonus.

If you want a slightly less powerful, more flexible option, instead of going Planning domain/Persist Spell/DMM:Persist, you can simply go Quicken Spell/DMM:Quicken. This leaves a domain open at 1st level, which you can grab, exchange for a Devotion feat, or keep around for the spell list and trade the granted effect for a feat when you get Ordained Champion.

Finally, an option is going Cloistered Cleric instead. You start out squishier, but thanks to the Persisted spells you get it doesn't matter all that much. The lure here is you can turn the Knowledge domain into Knowledge Devotion (if you've got the Int for spare skill points) or trade it for Power Attack when you get your first level of Ordained Champion (Power Attack, etc.) since you're rather tight on feats.

EDIT:
Ordained Champion, Devotion feats, and Holy Warrior feat are from Complete Champion. Persist Spell and DMM:Persist are from Complete Arcane and Complete Divine, respectively. Sacred Exorcist and Nightsticks also Divine. Prestige Paladin and Cloistered Cleric are from the SRD. Destroy Undead is Castle Ravenloft.

[dialdial]

Thank you for all of the detailed information, everyone. One I go through everyone's suggestions, I believe that it will help a great deal.

The survey was completely unofficial, and it was based upon what everyone thought that I would be good at, considering how I played my character. We started out as all chaotic good characters; however, though my actions, I have been on the border between neutral good and lawful good for some time. I have actually had to play my character differently so that I wouldn't lose the ability to Rage.

There are seven people playing right now. In the new campaign we will have one spellcaster, one bard, one monk, one or two rogues (one trapfinder and possibly one pickpocket), the pickpocket rogue may be our cleric depending on DM, one druid, and me.

As far as the group's optimization level, I am not sure. I'm pretty much the meat shield / DPS guy. My Half-Orc has a strength of 20. He also has a magic item created specifically (DM created something for everyone) for my character that grants him ST +6, immediate, x3 per day for 10 minutes. Then I rage for +4 ST. So, I get a strength of 30, take out my Frost and Icy Burst Great Axe and start swinging. It's not uncommon for me to do over 110 points of damage on a critical hit. Then I Cleave.

[Venusaur]

A couple people have mentioned battle blessing, but I don't think that they have emphasized how good it is. It is the equivalent of a +4 metamagic on all of your spells. You can buff and attack on the same turn, which is awesome. Also, if you can take the feat serenity, then everything that scales off of charisma now scales off of wisdom, which is great for spellcasting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

A couple people have mentioned battle blessing, but I don't think that they have emphasized how good it is. It is the equivalent of a +4 metamagic on all of your spells. You can buff and attack on the same turn, which is awesome. Also, if you can take the feat serenity, then everything that scales off of charisma now scales off of wisdom, which is great for spellcasting.

Did you see the OP's stats? I too would suggest Serenity if his stats were lower.

To the OP, if you're intending on going Paladin 20, I'd definitely suggest Sword of the Arcane Order and either Underdark Knight (CC) or Divine Spirit (DS).

[Medic!]

If you have access to Tome of Battle, I'd definately take a good look at Crusader. They can do decent damage, are born to meat-shield, and are great team-players (especially with other melee PCs in the party), and come with a little utility (free healing in combat without "wasting" your turn).

One huge advantage they have over the Paladin class is that they can be a paladin without all of the Code of Conduct *crap* getting in the way.

Another great advantage is that you can add Crusader to your PC and not "lose out" on much at all, since 1/2 of your non-tome of battle class levels count toward your Initiator Level (if you haven't ToB'd, it's basically a caster level for melee characters).

On a side note, I'm not sure that you can lose rage for an alignment swing. - Was too lazy to look, Kelb jukes past the defense, coming out of nowhere, alley-oop and IT'S GOOD!

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you have access to Tome of Battle, I'd definately take a good look at Crusader. They can do decent damage, are born to meat-shield, and are great team-players (especially with other melee PCs in the party), and come with a little utility (free healing in combat without "wasting" your turn).

One huge advantage they have over the Paladin class is that they can be a paladin without all of the Code of Conduct *crap* getting in the way.

Another great advantage is that you can add Crusader to your PC and not "lose out" on much at all, since 1/2 of your non-tome of battle class levels count toward your Initiator Level (if you haven't ToB'd, it's basically a caster level for melee characters).

On a side note, I'm not sure that you can lose rage for an alignment swing.

End of the barbarian class description under ex-barbarians: "a barbarian that becomes lawful loses the ability to rage."

[Medic!]

That is easily remedied with some white-out and a deft hand.

[lsfreak]

If you have access to Tome of Battle, I'd definately take a good look at Crusader.
Yea, I should have started with this. Crusaders make good paladins out-of-the-box, and aren't all that complicated - certainly less so than a cleric-based "paladin" that has all the spells to deal with.



On a side note, I'm not sure that you can lose rage for an alignment swing.

I'd also posit, why should barbarians lose their rage? There's nothing in the mechanics that demand they be Chaotic, it could just as easily be a highly trained, focused monk-type character to meditates to increase their physical stats, in which case I'd expect more towards Lawful. If your DM doesn't like altering fluff (the descriptions, etc) of the classes much, though, yes, becoming Lawful you do lose rage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That is easily remedied with some white-out and a deft hand.

I never have, and never would, make any kind of mark on one of my books.

Also, how do you white out the internet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)?

[Medic!]

http://www.dplay.com/audwhite.jpg

Like so!

And it's not making a mark, it's removing one!