Jumplomancer? Basket weaving?

[laeZ1]

Nobody in my gaming group (including myself) knows exactly what a jumplomancer is, but it seems to be pretty common knowledge on the playground. Does anybody have a link to a thread where it was already discussed? Or give me a quick rundown on what rules/books/feats/magical items are needed to break the jump skill? I remember somebody mentioning that you can use jump to add more damage to an attack, this makes sense to me but I don't remember it in the PHB. The only table I remember is the DCs for different heights.

So long as we're on how skills are broken, I've heard about basketweaving. I know I may regret asking this, but how is basketweaving a broken skill?

[Novawurmson]

They're both TO (Theoretical Optimization)/Joke builds.

Edit: Here's an explanation of Jumplomancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious).

[Vauron]

Nobody in my gaming group (including myself) knows exactly what a jumplomancer is, but it seems to be pretty common knowledge on the playground. Does anybody have a link to a thread where it was already discussed? Or give me a quick rundown on what rules/books/feats/magical items are needed to break the jump skill? I remember somebody mentioning that you can use jump to add more damage to an attack, this makes sense to me but I don't remember it in the PHB. The only table I remember is the DCs for different heights.

So long as we're on how skills are broken, I've heard about basketweaving. I know I may regret asking this, but how is basketweaving a broken skill?

As far as Jump to damage is concerned, this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon) is all that comes to mind. I believe that Jumplomancer refers in part to the Exemplar's class feature that lets them use a different skill of their choice to make diplomacy checks.

Basket-weaving is just a silly joke, however.

[CyMage]

As for the Jump being used to increase damage of an attack, there are several feats that use it, though Leap Attack is the big one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nobody in my gaming group (including myself) knows exactly what a jumplomancer is, but it seems to be pretty common knowledge on the playground. Does anybody have a link to a thread where it was already discussed? Or give me a quick rundown on what rules/books/feats/magical items are needed to break the jump skill? I remember somebody mentioning that you can use jump to add more damage to an attack, this makes sense to me but I don't remember it in the PHB. The only table I remember is the DCs for different heights.

So long as we're on how skills are broken, I've heard about basketweaving. I know I may regret asking this, but how is basketweaving a broken skill?

Jump increasing attack/damage comes mostly from the feat leap attack in complete adventurer, though there are a few others.

This has nothing to do with the jumplomancer. The jumplomancer is an alternative version of the diplomancer (a build that focuses on getting diplomacy obscenely high so that you make friends with everything instead of killing it) It's based on a supplemental rule that says you can adjust the attitude of NPC's as though you made a diplomacy check with some impressive display of another skill, though I don't remember exactly which source the rule is in. Jump is easier to pimp than diplomacy, though only just, and as such makes the DC's to improve NPC's attitudes to fanatical devotion that much more trivial.

[Telonius]

Nobody in my gaming group (including myself) knows exactly what a jumplomancer is, but it seems to be pretty common knowledge on the playground. Does anybody have a link to a thread where it was already discussed? Or give me a quick rundown on what rules/books/feats/magical items are needed to break the jump skill? I remember somebody mentioning that you can use jump to add more damage to an attack, this makes sense to me but I don't remember it in the PHB. The only table I remember is the DCs for different heights.

So long as we're on how skills are broken, I've heard about basketweaving. I know I may regret asking this, but how is basketweaving a broken skill?

Jumplomancer has already been explained. There are a few non-PHB places where Jump checks can help you with your attacks. Many of the Tiger Claw maneuvers from Tome of Battle involve making Jump checks vs. the opponent's AC in place of attacks, to do a bunch of extra damage.

The Leap Attack feat (from Complete Adventurer) lets you do double extra Power Attack damage, if you jump at least 10 feet horizontal to end a Charge. Combined with Shock Trooper, it's a pretty standard feat for Charge builds.

[Darius Kane]

This has nothing to do with the jumplomancer. The jumplomancer is an alternative version of the diplomancer (a build that focuses on getting diplomacy obscenely high so that you make friends with everything instead of killing it) It's based on a supplemental rule that says you can adjust the attitude of NPC's as though you made a diplomacy check with some impressive display of another skill, though I don't remember exactly which source the rule is in. Jump is easier to pimp than diplomacy, though only just, and as such makes the DC's to improve NPC's attitudes to fanatical devotion that much more trivial.
I think you mean the Exemplar prc and it's class feature that allows it to make a Diplomacy check (to influance NPCs) using a different skill. It's called Persuasive Performance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you mean the Exemplar prc and it's class feature that allows it to make a Diplomacy check using a different skill.

A class feature of a PrC in a splat is a supplemental rule.

It's not what one usually means by the phrase "supplemental rule" but it's still technically accurate. :smalltongue:

Besides, I did say I couldn't remember exactly where it was from.

[Darius Kane]

I didn't say you where wrong.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Basket-weaving is a trick to break WBL. Technically, you can do it with any Craft skill, but basket-weaving and underwater basket-weaving are popular for it.

[kitcik]

A tangent since it has not been mentioned: the big damage-producing, jump-related feat is Battle Jump (which is included in the Hood build referenced above).

[ThiagoMartell]

A tangent since it has not been mentioned: the big damage-producing, jump-related feat is Battle Jump (which is included in the Hood build referenced above).

And it comes with heavy RP/background requirements which are usually ignored.

[kitcik]

And it comes with heavy RP/background requirements which are usually ignored.

If you are not playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, that is correct.

If you ARE, then read on...

Battle Jump is a regional feat from the Taer region.

Rules quote (emphasis added):

"The feats specific to characters of the
region. Regional feats are usually exclusive to characters who
choose a preferred class in a particular region. However, a
character with 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) pertaining to a
region qualifies to select regional feats from that region."

[Answerer]

And it comes with heavy RP/background requirements which are usually ignored.
Heavy? It's a regional feat. The only requirement is that you simply be from the listed region.

And since that region is in Faerun, if you're not playing Forgotten Realms, they're meaningless. A DM can, of course, ban setting-specific material (or non-setting-specific material for that matter), but the majority of DMs will allow it and simply waive prerequisites that become nonsensical.

It's not like being from that region is a mechanical hardship that turns the requirement into some major balancing factor. It's literally just "write down on your sheet that you are from here." It might affect the character's backstory and motivations and how they roleplay -- and I do not mean to downplay that -- but for the purposes of discussing optimization tricks, it's hardly a deal-breaker.

If you wanted to say Vow of Peace or Lolth-touched have heavy RP/background requirements, then I'll buy it. But Battle Jump? It doesn't even make sense that only people from Taer know how to jump on people in the first place.

[Venger]

It doesn't even make sense that only people from Taer know how to jump on people in the first place.
no, it doesn't. back then they wanted to just make sure that you were limited to 1 regional feat.

but as you said, I've never met anyone who actually enforced this for battlejump.

basketweaving/underwater basketweaving is also occasionally used (thought not as much) as a shorthand for a joke about the strange things that monsters sometimes have ranks in (elder brain's disguise check, or petal's craft (flower arranging) for example) since the points are assigned more or less at random

[laeZ1]

Basket-weaving is a trick to break WBL. Technically, you can do it with any Craft skill, but basket-weaving and underwater basket-weaving are popular for it.

What does WBL stand for?

[GreenSerpent]

And as for the Assplomancer...

[kitcik]

What does WBL stand for?

Wealth by level guidelines.

In other words you can craft stuff and sell it for money, duh. You can also break stuff and sell pieces of it for more money than the original was worth. D&D rules!

Back to Battle Jump, I am playing FR and my DM enfocred the rule (as I would expect), so I simply took the 2 knowledge ranks (even though they were cross class and I am non-human with low Int). It was well worth it...

[Stegyre]

What does WBL stand for?

Wealth By Level: the amount of wealth characters should have (in equipment, gold, consumables, etc.) at each character level.

EDIT: beaten to the punch. That should teach me.

[Venger]

Wealth by level guidelines.

In other words you can craft stuff and sell it for money, duh. You can also break stuff and sell pieces of it for more money than the original was worth. D&D rules!

Back to Battle Jump, I am playing FR and my DM enfocred the rule (as I would expect), so I simply took the 2 knowledge ranks (even though they were cross class and I am non-human with low Int). It was well worth it...

ah the infamous ladder/pole thing.

quarterstaves are also an offender since, due to the crafting formula, you can make infinite quarterstaves in absolutely no time at all. you can't profit from it, but you can instantly destroy anything made of wood.

[Eldariel]

ah the infamous ladder/pole thing.

quarterstaves are also an offender since, due to the crafting formula, you can make infinite quarterstaves in absolutely no time at all. you can't profit from it, but you can instantly destroy anything made of wood.

Components for making quarterstaff cost nothing. Ergo you can make an infinite number of quarterstaves in no time, among others enabling you to drown people in them and stuff.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And as for the Assplomancer...

Arseplomancer.... and it uses the same trick as the Jumplomancer but using the epic DC for escape artist which include squeezing through an opening 2 inches thick (for Medium characters the DC is 80) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm). Now think about the name a bit and :eek:

[KillianHawkeye]

basketweaving/underwater basketweaving is also occasionally used (thought not as much) as a shorthand for a joke about the strange things that monsters sometimes have ranks in (elder brain's disguise check, or petal's craft (flower arranging) for example) since the points are assigned more or less at random

But Elder Brain doesn't have any ranks in Disguise.... :smallconfused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

But Elder Brain doesn't have any ranks in Disguise.... :smallconfused:

I think Thoon Elder Brains might...

Thoon is all and All is Thoon

[KillianHawkeye]

I think Thoon Elder Brains might...

Lemme check...

still NO. Not even listed.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Basket weaving is also used as joke filler when laying out builds putting skill ranks that aren't needed for PrC qualifications or for important mechanical benefits into craft (basketweaving) and spending "open feats" on skill focus Basketweaving, Improved Basketweaving and Underwater Basketweaving. Basically, it's forum code for "whatever".

[Eldariel]

Basket weaving is also used as joke filler when laying out builds putting skill ranks that aren't needed for PrC qualifications or for important mechanical benefits into craft (basketweaving) and spending "open feats" on skill focus Basketweaving, Improved Basketweaving and Underwater Basketweaving. Basically, it's forum code for "whatever".

Also, it's chosen because it's a real skill named in official material (it's mentioned once in "Beget Bogun" Druid-spell) as opposed to the infinite random Professions, Crafts and Performs you can come up with.

[Analytica]

Battle Jump is a regional feat from the Taer region.


Taer? As in those yeti-like apes of the Unapproachable East?

And the Escape Artist one was called the Spelunker, and IIRC involved things like not only making enemies who saw your amazing orifical contortionist tricks becoming instantly fanatically loyal to you, but also hiding other party members in strange places to smuggle them into situations.

[Answerer]

Taer? As in those yeti-like apes of the Unapproachable East?
Taer is a region. There may be yeti-like apes living there, but the feat has no racial restrictions.

[Draz74]

[Regional] status aside, the Battle Jump feat is horribly written, requiring a lot of DM interpretation to determine when it does and doesn't apply. :smallsigh:

[Analytica]

Taer is a region. There may be yeti-like apes living there, but the feat has no racial restrictions.

Taer are these creatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taer):


The taer absolutely despises company, and kills anything that comes near it. It attacks first by throwing bone spears at intruders, and then, if the spear misses or does not kill the victim, it moves in to pummel and tear the victim apart. It uses the remains to make more bone spears. They also fight with crude wooden clubs and cudgels.
(...)
Taers live in cold mountain caves, far away from civilization.

By extension, the Taer region is the frigid mountains where they live, but that refers to the apes rather than the other way around. You are right in that it has no racial restriction, so if you have lived with the Taer in their cold mountains (thereby either counting as being from there or having an excuse to pick up Knowledge: Local for that region), you can indeed have learned battle-jumping from them. For whatever that is worth, I think it should not have regional restrictions either, so that there instead could be multiple battle-jumping traditions.

[Cavara]

I've seen one situation in my campaigns where basket weaving was used properly and that was my 3.5 campaign where the party leader was a war-weaver...so he needed to be able to weave...and so every session someone ended up with a basket.

[ThiagoMartell]

Heavy? It's a regional feat. The only requirement is that you simply be from the listed region.
That's not exactly how regions work in 3.5.
In 3.0, regions were for everyone. In 3.5, they are racial specific.
From pages 6 and 8:
The regions described in this chapter are organized by character race. For example, if you are creating a dwarf character, you should peruse Table 1–3: Dwarf Regions to fi nd a region suitable for your character. (...) It would not be unreasonable, for example, for a gold dwarf character to have the human region of Cormyr as his native region. However, such an unusual origin probably deserves some explanation in your character’s backstory.


And since that region is in Faerun, if you're not playing Forgotten Realms, they're meaningless.
Yes, but then you're refluffing something with fluff restrictions, straight into houserule territory (not that there is anything wrong with it).


It's not like being from that region is a mechanical hardship that turns the requirement into some major balancing factor. It's literally just "write down on your sheet that you are from here." It might affect the character's backstory and motivations and how they roleplay -- and I do not mean to downplay that -- but for the purposes of discussing optimization tricks, it's hardly a deal-breaker.
Yes, it doesn't matter for TO, but for PO it is kind of a big deal. Your only possible backstory is "raised by a race of monsters that is known for eating people".


If you wanted to say Vow of Peace or Lolth-touched have heavy RP/background requirements, then I'll buy it. But Battle Jump? It doesn't even make sense that only people from Taer know how to jump on people in the first place.
Well, maybe this is why you're confused. Taer is not a country or region, it's a creature. Regions work quite differently in 3.5 - they are hard-coded with a race and they have a secondary 'recommended subraces' section.
Humans use the regions on page 11, PHB races and races presented in Races of Faerun have other tables, while other races use the regions on page 30. Among them, the Icerim Mountains are listed, with recommended subrace Taer and Battle Jump as a regional feat.
About regional feats, from page 32:

Each regional feat specifies one or more character race and region combinations as prerequisites. To select such a feat, your character must meet one such set of prerequisites. For example,
to select a feat whose regional prerequisite is Dwarf (Spine of the World), your character must be a dwarf whose home region is the Spine of the World.
If you must go by strict RAW, if your race is not listed anywhere else in Player's Guide to Faerun, you could be from the Icerim Mountains Other Races and take Battle Jump (and that is very restrictive - no subraces and no planetouched, for starters).

I'm just clarifying what I meant. Battle Jump has some RP/background restrictions, yes. Of course, RP and background don't matter in TO. If you're homebrewing it into another setting, it might have restrictions or not. If you're DM does not want to use regional feats for what they're intended (giving each region it's mechanical flavor), he might even houserule all the restrictions away. The fact, though, is that it has restrictions and they are very rarely mentioned.


[Regional] status aside, the Battle Jump feat is horribly written, requiring a lot of DM interpretation to determine when it does and doesn't apply. :smallsigh:
100% correct.

[Answerer]

Thiago, you are incorrect. I misunderstood nothing, you are merely massively overstating the hardship of meeting the prerequisite. Your rules analysis isn't exactly 100% either, but I'm not going down that road.

[ThiagoMartell]

Thiago, you are incorrect. I misunderstood nothing, you are merely massively overstating the hardship of meeting the prerequisite. Your rules analysis isn't exactly 100% either, but I'm not going down that road.

I did no rule analysis, this is all about fluff.

[Answerer]

I did no rule analysis, this is all about fluff.
Yes, you did, namely about what the regional requirement actually means and requires in terms of one's fluff.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yes, you did, namely about what the regional requirement actually means and requires in terms of one's fluff.

And those are not rules. And they are right.

[Answerer]

Then your quotations from Player's Guide to Faerun are what, weird jokes by WotC?

And, while I'm sure they are right (not accusing you have somehow having mis-copied the rules text from PGtF), you are not.

[ThiagoMartell]

Then your quotations from Player's Guide to Faerun are what, weird jokes by WotC?
They are not rules, they are fluff.


And, while I'm sure they are right (not accusing you have somehow having mis-copied the rules text from PGtF), you are not.
Please explain why.

[Darrin]

They are not rules, they are fluff.



Actually, there are rules for this in the Players Guide to Faerun. Sidebar, page 33:

"The region system in this book limits each character to one and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level. This rule replaces the one on page 28 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting that allows a character to learn another regional feat for each 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) she has."

This effectively removed the "2 ranks in Knowledge (Local)" rule from 3.5. Very few people actually follow this new rule, however, and still use the old rules.

[ThiagoMartell]

Actually, there are rules for this in the Players Guide to Faerun. Sidebar, page 33:

"The region system in this book limits each character to one and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level. This rule replaces the one on page 28 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting that allows a character to learn another regional feat for each 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) she has."

This effectively removed the "2 ranks in Knowledge (Local)" rule from 3.5. Very few people actually follow this new rule, however, and still use the old rules.

Yeah, it's just not what I quoted, which I mentioned before. Aside for the 2 ranks thing, the other significant change was different regions for different races.

[Lord_Gareth]

The regions described in this chapter are organized by character race. For example, if you are creating a dwarf character, you should peruse Table 1–3: Dwarf Regions to fi nd a region suitable for your character. (...) It would not be unreasonable, for example, for a gold dwarf character to have the human region of Cormyr as his native region. However, such an unusual origin probably deserves some explanation in your character’s backstory.

"My character was part of a family of traveling trappers and furriers in the Taer mountains. He learned Battle Jump by observing Taer on their hunts, to better imitate their ferocity on his own hunts."

Two sentences. So arduous. How did I ever do it?

[ThiagoMartell]

"My character was part of a family of traveling trappers and furriers in the Taer mountains. He learned Battle Jump by observing Taer on their hunts, to better imitate their ferocity on his own hunts."

Two sentences. So arduous. How did I ever do it?
It's Icerim Mountains. Yes, you need a backstory. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along (without insulting anyone, I might add). One part I left out of that quote is when it says "You should check with your Dungeon Master before you assign your character a region that doesn’t fit his subrace".
Bolding mine. Please avoid veiled insults. I treat people with respect and would like to be treated respectfully in return.

[Lord_Gareth]

It's Icerim Mountains. Yes, you need a backstory. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along (without insulting anyone, I might add). One part I left out of that quote is when it says "You should check with your Dungeon Master before you assign your character a region that doesn’t fit his subrace".

The general point being that there's no gigantic problem that people are ignoring in the name of PO/TO. As a DM, I'd let that two-sentence explanation fly just fine (I've let thinner excuses fly, for that matter). It's only as much of an issue as any given Dungeon Master makes it. If you, as a DM, prefer to make it an issue that's between you and your players, but that doesn't mean it's an absolute.

[Answerer]

They are not rules, they are fluff.
They most definitely are rules. They are telling the player what he must do to take the feat.


Please explain why.
No.

[ThiagoMartell]

No.

Well, that's too bad. I really can't see how it could be wrong. One of the best parts of the community is helping each other with rules, after all.

[HunterOfJello]

Jump just happens to be one of the easiest skills to get tons and tons of boosts to from all sorts of different sources. The designers likely didn't seem to think there would be too much harm in it. However, ... they were wrong.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, that's too bad. I really can't see how it could be wrong. One of the best parts of the community is helping each other with rules, after all.

I can actually clarify a bit on this one. In all seriousness - see the quote in my siggy? If you click the link on that quote, you will go to one of the most awful, soul-rending threads in all of existence. I regret participating in that thread. I have nightmares about that thread happening again. I have Post-Thread-Stress-Disorder is what I have. And it concerns solely the dividing line between 'fluff' and 'rule'.

The wiser members of our community - Answerer among them - have learned not to even open that can of worms, because if the other side disagrees at all then the argument revives like some kind of sick hydra and whatever thread it's in becomes irreversibly tainted with it.

[TuggyNE]

I can actually clarify a bit on this one. In all seriousness - see the quote in my siggy? If you click the link on that quote, you will go to one of the most awful, soul-rending threads in all of existence. I regret participating in that thread. I have nightmares about that thread happening again. I have Post-Thread-Stress-Disorder is what I have. And it concerns solely the dividing line between 'fluff' and 'rule'.

The wiser members of our community - Answerer among them - have learned not to even open that can of worms, because if the other side disagrees at all then the argument revives like some kind of sick hydra and whatever thread it's in becomes irreversibly tainted with it.

I remember reading that. It went on another 30 pages after someone had proclaimed that Gareth had said all there was to say. :smallsigh: