PDA

View Full Version : Psion question regarding Empathic Transfer, hostile



xsinx
2012-09-07, 02:16 PM
Hey everyone,

I'm new to the forum as a member but I've been reading stuff on here since for a long time on a regular basis. I've been playing D&D since the dawn of AD&D so it's been a while... Well I took some long breaks, but anyways. I'm a 35 year old male from Quebec, Canada in the Montreal area.

So on to my question. I'm setting up a character for a 3.5 gestalt game with quite a bit of flexibility on the part of the DM in terms of rules. Without getting into the details, my toon is a slave Mul from Dark Sun which ended up at the helm of an experimental Silt ship that ended up with Spelljamming-like capabilities, allowing me to escape my life of slavery by going to another world (namely, Forgotten Realms).

I didn't like the different gladiator classes so I ended up with a Warblade and chose Psion (telepath) as my second class. The synergy can be pretty good and hey, a D12 psion that can wreck your face with melee when he's out of PPs is nothing to sneeze at.

On to the issue... While choosing my powers I really liked the Empathic Transfer (hostile) manifestation. The fact that it's balanced for a d4 character makes it pretty awesome and well, self-healing is always fun. The first version I saw of this spell is the one from XPH and let me tell you it's one of the most confusing spells I have ever had to ponder on. The newer version is clearer (from Complete Psionic), but a bit contradictory at the same time.

My main issue with it all is the fact that it's a telepathic power that deals with physical damage. The XPH description says "transfers pain"... the CP description says "transfers hurt". What is pain and what is hurt and how to they relate to physical wounds? I talked about it with my DM and his stance is that "pain" is mental only, so the spell allows me to ignore the pain and keep going even if my guts are hanging out but at the end of combat, I need to either get some real healing or let time do it's job, all while retaining those "temporary" hit points but eventually being subject to disease, infection, stay dogs wanting a bit off me, etc.

How do you picture this? Imagine I have 3 arrows in the back and cast this on a foe.... Do the arrows fall on the ground and arrow wounds appear on the foe? Do I retain the arrows and just ignore them, transferring only mental pain to the foe (and eventually killing him from a heart attack if he goes bellow 0)?

It's a pretty confusing spell! I won't even go into the second augment for the first version of this spell that doesn't even specify how it affects the creatures. I've read interpretation of this spell dealing damage to all creatures but only transferring the spell amount to me.. I've read about spreading it around. I even read about people who thought it was the healing that was AoE, allowing me to damage a creature for 50 hp and heal me and my friends my 50 hp each. Heck, reading the description, it could even heal all creatures, damage all creatures, or both. The revision of it is a lot more clearer, but the 50% damage nerf is pretty harsh (goes from slightly overpowered to slightly underpowered IMHO).

So yeah, I'd just like opinions on it all, food for thought mostly. I'm not sure I'm at ease with any of the versions I gathered (XPH, vs CP vs my DM's).

TLDR: What is pain in a telepathic context and how does it relate to HPs and physical wounds?

NEO|Phyte
2012-09-07, 02:53 PM
The specifics of how it's fluffed are not important, mechanically it takes your HP damage and gives it to the other guy.

That said, it's a real brain breaker if you sit down and try to work out how exactly a [mind-affecting] power is meant to work in a lasting fashion. Presumably it runs off of the concept of abstract HP, in the "full HP does not mean your body is in perfect condition" sense. Or something. Take a cue from The Matrix I suppose, "Your mind makes it real."

eggs
2012-09-07, 02:55 PM
Have you ever seen Scanners?

Roguenewb
2012-09-07, 02:57 PM
Yes, this power is strange. It's not as good as I'd like usually, but it does solid work. The share pain vigor psycrystal trick works better, IMHO, because it always works and things rarely attack your psicrystal.

xsinx
2012-09-07, 03:19 PM
The specifics of how it's fluffed are not important, mechanically it takes your HP damage and gives it to the other guy.

That said, it's a real brain breaker if you sit down and try to work out how exactly a [mind-affecting] power is meant to work in a lasting fashion. Presumably it runs off of the concept of abstract HP, in the "full HP does not mean your body is in perfect condition" sense. Or something. Take a cue from The Matrix I suppose, "Your mind makes it real."

Thanks for the reply, I'll read up on abstract HP.

Heck, at this point I'm wondering what happens if I fall bellow 0 in terms of abstract HPs. Within the DM's guidelines as it is, I could go unlimited on this and just scrape my body down to bones and keep functioning so long as I replenish those "fake HPs" above zero, pretty much tricking my mind into thinking my body is still 100% fine. I'm wondering at what point I'll become undead using this stuff, hehe.

And to answer other replies, I did see Scanners but it was a looooong time ago so I don't remember much of it or anything. As for psicrystals, I'm not using one, I'm way too short on feats for that. I'm using my level feats for my warblade side so it leaves me with a level 1 psi feat and a levle 5 psi feat. I'm going for Expanded Knowledge for my 5th to get Animal Affinity and my 1st is most likely going to Overchannel.

TuggyNE
2012-09-07, 04:14 PM
Heck, at this point I'm wondering what happens if I fall bellow 0 in terms of abstract HPs. Within the DM's guidelines as it is, I could go unlimited on this and just scrape my body down to bones and keep functioning so long as I replenish those "fake HPs" above zero, pretty much tricking my mind into thinking my body is still 100% fine. I'm wondering at what point I'll become undead using this stuff, hehe.

By RAW, these HP are not temporary or fake, they are entirely real. How exactly you explain this is a little trickier, of course.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-09-07, 08:01 PM
By RAW, these HP are not temporary or fake, they are entirely real. How exactly you explain this is a little trickier, of course.

Quoted for truth.

There is nothing in the mechanics about HET giving you temporary or "fake" hp. It's a power that outright heals you.

Why a conection between your mind and your enemy's lets you transfer your wounds to him, is a fluff concern and one that I honestly don't have a good answer for, if you fluff that significant HP loss means having deep wounds.

Cor1
2012-09-08, 05:51 AM
Don't use Empathic Tranfer. It's Mind affecting, meaning by lvl 15, it affects nothing at all forever, and is resisted easily from level one. It also allows a save and spell/power resistance, so it's basically useless.

Use the combo of Vigor shared with psicrystal + Share Pain with psicrystal. instead It basically doubles your HP.

Fun trick : Psychic Reformation your psicrystal so that it has Hidden Talent as first feat and then give it a Psicrystal as 3rd HD feat. Your psicrystal now has a psicrystal. As that psicrystal has half it's master's HP, you don't want to give a psicrystal to that one, it would be too fragile. But it further extends the use of Vigor + Share Pain.

TuggyNE
2012-09-08, 03:23 PM
Don't use Empathic Tranfer. It's Mind affecting, meaning by lvl 15, it affects nothing at all forever, and is resisted easily from level one. It also allows a save and spell/power resistance, so it's basically useless.

This isn't exactly correct. It's mind-affecting, but e.g. protection from good does not affect it (it's not charm or compulsion, much less ongoing control). So at level 1 you "only" need to worry about type-based immunities: plants, undead, constructs, vermin, oozes. Most of your opponents at level 15 will be immune, certainly, though probably not quite all.

The fact that it offers a save and PR just means it's more or less average; it's not a stellar power, but it's not exactly worthless either. (Vigor + share pain + Psicrystal Affinity is probably superior for nearly all purposes, but they can synergize, obviously.)