Level 10: The Point of No Return for Combat?

[wayfare]

Hey All:

So, a lot of my design work focuses on low level design -- I am currently working on a version of 3.5 that simply stops at level 10. My primary reason for doing this is the simple math of it: past that point, the modifiers get so high and move at such an odd rate that things like AC no longer become effective defenses. Instead things like blur, cover, and teleportation become the new way to defend yourself.

Am I right, playground? Is level 10 the cut off point for effective combat?

[Answerer]

I think it's lower than that. Probably about 6. Ya know, where there's an entire system already developed revolving around that cut-off point.

[Novawurmson]

Obligatory E6 post (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

The basic question is this: Do you want your players to be realistic representations of a world in which minor magical powers exist or do you want your players to be demigods?

Minor magical powers: Stop at 6-10
Demigods: 11-20

[wayfare]

I think it's lower than that. Probably about 6. Ya know, where there's an entire system already developed revolving around that cut-off point.

lol, I love e6, but i often feel like the mechanics can hold pout a bit longer.

[Roguenewb]

Fun fact: If you take away all magic items, and then subtract half a creature's CR from it's AC, people hit about as often as you'd expect, for the whole game.

[Tvtyrant]

lol, I love e6, but i often feel like the mechanics can hold pout a bit longer.

Level 10 means 4th and 5th level spells. Which means:

Polymorph-Caster's now equal to mundanes in melee combat.
Scrying-Now your casters can spy on everyone!
Freedom of Movement-No more grappling!
Divine Power-I think we all know this one :smallamused:
Animate Dead-Supremely breakable, welcome to zombie hydra land.
Enervation-The all powerful, no save debuff
Cloudkill-Take that earlier cloudcontrol spells!
Lesser Planar Binding-You can now call things that are better than your allies in combat.
Teleport-No more of this "traveling places" or "dungeon crawling." Scry and die is on the table!
Planeshift-Now you can go to the "Die, WBL" plane (mineral plane).
Commune-Now you can ask the DM yes or no questions!
Dominate Person-Enslaving beam is fully functional captain.
Wall of Force-Block everything.
Magic Jar-Keep a big beefy monster in a bag of holding filled with Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm), and use sudden extend to take control of it each morning. Now the Wizard is capable of being much, much better than the fighter.
Telekinesis -AMFs are now useless
Permanency


All of the above are in core only, but I think I make my point.

[kitcik]

In a low optimization party, I find it to be more like level 14.

[Tyndmyr]

In a high op party, I can go until about 25.

I should caveat that this requires having a high-op comfortable DM, too.

[ahenobarbi]

Telekinesis -AMFs are now useless
Could you explain that?

[Tvtyrant]

Could you explain that?

There is an old trick where you buy a bunch of Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal greatswords (depending on your cash outlay), shrink them down and put them in a bag of holding. When an enemy is in their AMF you take them out and use the violent thrust ability to throw up to (in E10s case) ten of the objects at the enemy. They do their weapon damage when they hit, and the return to their original size when they enter the AMF. So even limited to Huge greatswords you do an average of 120 damage.

[Starbuck_II]

lol, I love e6, but i often feel like the mechanics can hold pout a bit longer.

Use E8? Like E6, but stop at 8.
It allows 4th level spells. 5th level become rituals (like Raise dead, Teleport, etc)

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think leve 7 is the break point for casters (and everything else that has a break point), so I would think that E6 probably fits the balance point of combat like a glove.

That said, E8 games do exist (they aren't totally unheard of), and while I feel that mundanes have already been rendered irrelevant for a lot of things by level 10 (see: arcane/divine skill monkeys that are objectively better at skill monkeying than actual skill monkeys), I suppose it *can* be done. Just be mindful of the fact that most of the game-breaking tricks come online for casters at levels 7 and 9 (while mundanes got their second iteratives at 6 and 8, and haven't gotten much since). Look to PrCs as a source of power for mundane classes in such a setting, as five levels in the right classes can at least mean *something*.

[demigodus]

If the problem is level 4+ spells breaking the game, why not just rule that you can't take a class if it would give you lvl 4 or higher spells?

So you could go Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 3/Druid 6/Archivist 6/etc., but you can't go wizard 7 for example. Or Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4.

It allows mundanes to advance normally, while if someone plays a caster, they need to play intelligently by cherry picking all the various lists through ultra min/maxing at the higher levels...

[Novawurmson]

Starbuck is recruiting for an E8 game on the forums right now XD

[Keld Denar]

The kinda nice thing about going to 8 is it allows non-full BAB characters an opportunity to get that second iterative. With E6, you are either full BAB and have it, or you aren't. A straight class rogue just gets it at 8, and a multiclass 3/4 BAB with full BAB dips gets it a little earlier, but still gets it, unlike in E6.

After all, skill guys still want to mix it up in melee!

[ericgrau]

At least that keeps SAB feinting viable. Any rogue who took improved feint and hits level 8 says ffffffffffffffffudge muffins.

[Answerer]

Fun fact: If you take away all magic items, and then subtract half a creature's CR from it's AC, people hit about as often as you'd expect, for the whole game.
Fun fact: If you take away all magic items, noncasters get shafted massively harder than they already are.

[Flickerdart]

Fun fact: If you take away all magic items, and then subtract half a creature's CR from it's AC, people hit about as often as you'd expect, for the whole game.
Without magical help, melee without damage dice bonuses (such as the Fighter) relies on Power Attack to deal meaningful amounts of damage. While it's indeed possible to keep your to-hit up with enemy AC (for your first iterative attack, anyway), unless you propose that Shock Trooper be a requirement for any melee class ever forever, the amount of damage you deal after hitting will be utterly negligible.

[demigodus]

Without magical help, melee without damage dice bonuses (such as the Fighter) relies on Power Attack to deal meaningful amounts of damage. While it's indeed possible to keep your to-hit up with enemy AC (for your first iterative attack, anyway), unless you propose that Shock Trooper be a requirement for any melee class ever forever, the amount of damage you deal after hitting will be utterly negligible.

He is subtracting half the creature's CR from AC. Magic Weapons generally have their modifier advance at a rate of 1/4 level. If the fighter is fighting an equal CR creature, this gives a -1/4 level to damage (I'm assuming he isn't keeping DR/magic...), and a +1/4 level to hit. If you PA for a quarter of your level, you have +0/+1/4 level to damage (depending on one handed or two handed), and a +0 to hit, compared to using magic weapons without subtracting that CR.

So, so long as you aren't fighting DR/magic, against an equal CR creature, this would give the PA fighter a slight damage boost without losing accuracy if he two hands. If he doesn't, no change to damage/accuracy.

I am of course, assuming all weapon enhancements take the +x form, rather than, say, having a +1 flaming holy keen scimitar.

[Flickerdart]

He is subtracting half the creature's CR from AC.
I am including that, yes. If not for that the penalty, you're not going to be hitting anything at all wading in without magic.



Magic Weapons generally have their modifier advance at a rate of 1/4 level.

I've never waited until level 20 to get a +5 stick. Usually get that (or a friendly caster with GMW) around 12th.