Andorax
2012-09-07, 03:06 PM
More than any other class's "Adaptation" section, much discusison and debate has taken place over the following section of the Book of 9 Swords' "Arcane Swordsage" variant:
Tome of Battle p. 20:
"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch. The arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver. In this case, you should remove the class's light armor proficiency and reduce the swordsage's Hit Dice to d6."
Since "most appropriate" isn't exactly strong wording, this has been interpreted a wide variety of ways. The lack of a clear guideline of what can and can't be taken under this description leads to everything from world-crushing power to "mention the very idea and get the book thrown at you".
What would happen if the Spellsage ("arcane" variant Swordsage) had to live by the following rules:
1) Any effect with a duration greater than 1 round per level (or greater than a fixed duration of 1 minute) is classified as a "stance"...an ability with a duration that persists only as long as you sustain it, and you can only have one such ability active at any given time. This is similar to how some Warlock powers work.
2) They are cast as maneuvers, and thus NOT spells and NOT subject to metamagic, able to be made into items, and so forth. The spellsage is not a caster, despite producing effects identical in many ways to spells, and has no particular ability to use wands and scrolls, nor access to "+ caster level" prestige classes.
3) The whole of your available menu of maneuver choices is limited to one of three sources, chosen at 1st level: The Warmage (CM) spell list, the Beguiler (PHBII) spell list, or the Dread Necromancer (HoH) spell list.
4) You are NOT a warmage, beguiler, etc....you do not have access to everything all the time. You still have to abide by the list of maneuvers (instant or short-duration) and stances (longer duration) known as per the Spellsage chart. You do not get any of the class features of these classes either.
The upshot of this is something akin to:
Beguiling Spellsage, 3rd level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 6):
1: Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, Rouse, Silent Image, Sleep, Whelm
2: Mirror Image
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: Charm Person, Disguse Self
The beguiler could keep one person charmed more-or-less full time, or herself disguised, but not both at once. In any given fight, she'd be able to get mirror image up and running and toss out one sleep, one color spray, one whelm, and use one silent image and (in a tight spot) one expeditious retreat.
War Spellsage, 5th level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 6):
1: Burning Hands, Magic Missile, True Strike, Fist of Stone, Lesser Orb of Acid, Lesser Orb of Sound
2: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Shatter
3: Fireball
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: Normally 2 available, but Warmage list has none, so NA
2/3: Fire Trap
In any given combat, he'd be able to cast fireball, scorching ray, flaming sphere, magic misile, and both lesser orbs...once. A lot more spell power per day, but unable to "nova" the highest level stuff in one big fight. Also, the ability to set up one fire trap at a time and sustain it until it goes off.
Dread Spellsage, 10th level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 8):
1: Cause fear, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement
2: death knell, false life, summon undead II
3: inflict serious wounds, vampiric touch, ray of exhaustion
4: enervation, evard's black tentacles, phantasmal killer
5: cloudkill, mass inflict light wounds, slay living
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: hide from undead, undetectable alignment
3: death ward
5: magic jar
Duration effects become more of a tradeoff now. He could sustain a death ward, but only at the cost of giving up his undetectable alignment...or give up the ability to do either in order to use magic jar, but basically at will.
In combat, he has a fairly potent load-out of spells that can be unleashed in each and every fight. Cloudkill, slay living, enervation, vampiric touch, mass inflict, phantasmal killer, evards and ray of exhaustion. This should be enough to get through most any given battle (and if not, fire up the magic jar and hope for the best).
Would this be a means of bringing the "arcane swordsage" concept into the realm of the reasonable and playable? Is this a straightforward way to define a legal list of "maneuvers" and "stances" for a spellsage? Do any of these variants sound like they'd be fun to try? They'd certainly all play out a different way.
Tome of Battle p. 20:
"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch. The arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver. In this case, you should remove the class's light armor proficiency and reduce the swordsage's Hit Dice to d6."
Since "most appropriate" isn't exactly strong wording, this has been interpreted a wide variety of ways. The lack of a clear guideline of what can and can't be taken under this description leads to everything from world-crushing power to "mention the very idea and get the book thrown at you".
What would happen if the Spellsage ("arcane" variant Swordsage) had to live by the following rules:
1) Any effect with a duration greater than 1 round per level (or greater than a fixed duration of 1 minute) is classified as a "stance"...an ability with a duration that persists only as long as you sustain it, and you can only have one such ability active at any given time. This is similar to how some Warlock powers work.
2) They are cast as maneuvers, and thus NOT spells and NOT subject to metamagic, able to be made into items, and so forth. The spellsage is not a caster, despite producing effects identical in many ways to spells, and has no particular ability to use wands and scrolls, nor access to "+ caster level" prestige classes.
3) The whole of your available menu of maneuver choices is limited to one of three sources, chosen at 1st level: The Warmage (CM) spell list, the Beguiler (PHBII) spell list, or the Dread Necromancer (HoH) spell list.
4) You are NOT a warmage, beguiler, etc....you do not have access to everything all the time. You still have to abide by the list of maneuvers (instant or short-duration) and stances (longer duration) known as per the Spellsage chart. You do not get any of the class features of these classes either.
The upshot of this is something akin to:
Beguiling Spellsage, 3rd level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 6):
1: Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, Rouse, Silent Image, Sleep, Whelm
2: Mirror Image
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: Charm Person, Disguse Self
The beguiler could keep one person charmed more-or-less full time, or herself disguised, but not both at once. In any given fight, she'd be able to get mirror image up and running and toss out one sleep, one color spray, one whelm, and use one silent image and (in a tight spot) one expeditious retreat.
War Spellsage, 5th level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 6):
1: Burning Hands, Magic Missile, True Strike, Fist of Stone, Lesser Orb of Acid, Lesser Orb of Sound
2: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Shatter
3: Fireball
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: Normally 2 available, but Warmage list has none, so NA
2/3: Fire Trap
In any given combat, he'd be able to cast fireball, scorching ray, flaming sphere, magic misile, and both lesser orbs...once. A lot more spell power per day, but unable to "nova" the highest level stuff in one big fight. Also, the ability to set up one fire trap at a time and sustain it until it goes off.
Dread Spellsage, 10th level:
Maneuvers Known (ready 8):
1: Cause fear, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement
2: death knell, false life, summon undead II
3: inflict serious wounds, vampiric touch, ray of exhaustion
4: enervation, evard's black tentacles, phantasmal killer
5: cloudkill, mass inflict light wounds, slay living
Stances (duration effects) Known (use any one at any given time):
1: hide from undead, undetectable alignment
3: death ward
5: magic jar
Duration effects become more of a tradeoff now. He could sustain a death ward, but only at the cost of giving up his undetectable alignment...or give up the ability to do either in order to use magic jar, but basically at will.
In combat, he has a fairly potent load-out of spells that can be unleashed in each and every fight. Cloudkill, slay living, enervation, vampiric touch, mass inflict, phantasmal killer, evards and ray of exhaustion. This should be enough to get through most any given battle (and if not, fire up the magic jar and hope for the best).
Would this be a means of bringing the "arcane swordsage" concept into the realm of the reasonable and playable? Is this a straightforward way to define a legal list of "maneuvers" and "stances" for a spellsage? Do any of these variants sound like they'd be fun to try? They'd certainly all play out a different way.