[3.P] Does Magic Jar deserve the [Mind-Affecting] tag?

[Novawurmson]

Having a little bit of a problem with the spell magic jar. Essentially, you're shedding your body for somebody else's on a failed save. It has a few built-in safeguards (bad things happen if you get moved away from your body and die, your body is lying helpless on the floor), but the problem is, the way my player mainly uses it, it's SoD/SoS that nearly always works.

TO BE COMPLETELY FAIR TO MY PLAYER: He only uses it maybe once in four sessions because he knows I don't like it, and we've talked about nerfing it in some way; I'm looking for reasonable ways to nerf the spell that will be discussed with a friendly, fun player. Also, part of the reason for its OPness in our campaign is that I roll notoriously poorly when DMing.

Anyway, back to the main point: Magic Jar is a SoS (really. more like SoD in practice, as the party tends to murder the Magic Jar'ed one after the battle is over) that targets Will save, but does not have the "mind-affecting" tag - meaning that tons of creatures with the "immune to mind-affecting affects" or "+2 bonus against mind-affecting affects" are completely vulnerable, as they generally don't otherwise have a good Will save. About the only thing I've found that resists Magic Jar is the "Protection from X" line. It's also a Necromancy spell, so everything immune to/that has a bonus against Enchantment spells is shafted. It's the exact same level as Dominate Person, but works on just about everyone.

What does the Playground think? Does Magic Jar deserve the "Mind Affecting" tag?

[Novawurmson]

::bump:: I'd really like some input here. I feel like the spell needs a tweak in some way to cut its game-breaking power.

[metabolicjosh]

No, it switches your essence...

[Psyren]

Well, adding that tag would make the spell useless vs. intelligent undead, and the text of the spell makes it clear that they are intended to be a legal target:


Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.

I do agree that the spell is really good though. Whether it's too good is difficult for me to say. I can think of a number of ways to counter it, from the basic (dispel magic or will save buffs) to the insidious (another enemy carrying the jar out of range once the caster has possessed someone.) Either way I don't think the spell is that big a deal.

[ericgrau]

Where does the party keep his body and the jar? Those are the biggest weaknesses. It's a big risk that should be rewarded when it works but also exploited by the enemy. Another weakness is that it's hard to pick targets. Most likely everything is within 4 HD of eachother... including allies. So you can't tell which is which. You might ward allies to prevent accidental possessions but that's still a wasted turn when it fails.

Per the spell description mindless undead are immune.

The big difference between this and dominate is that you can keep the dominated person to aid you later. 5th level also has wall of force which can often take a foe out of a fight without a save. Solid fog can do it temporarily at level 4. There are all kinds of spells to take out a foe under special circumstances. If anything magic jar's conditions are harder to pull off, even though fewer things are immune.

[Novawurmson]

Another weakness is that it's hard to pick targets. Most likely everything is within 4 HD of eachother... including allies. So you can't tell which is which. You might ward allies to prevent accidental possessions but that's still a wasted turn when it fails.

Did not catch this clause in the spell. Thank you for pointing this out.

[ericgrau]

He'll have an easier time distinguishing sentient undead since they have negative energy life forces but that's still a bit narrow of an application. IMO it's a cool underused spell so encourage your player to use it again. As long as he gets past all the restrictions he should feel good for succeeding with it.

[Psyren]

I don't know... given that the minimum radius is 90 ft., the restriction to force including allies in the random selection is going to nerf it to near-uselessness, especially when each attempt is a full-round action and they're forced to make a will save or be pre-warded. You could potentially waste a lot of actions, even those of your party (they lose their turn if they fail the save, unless you give up their body immediately before ending your turn - and it doesn't say what kind of action that requires.)

The wording is confusing though. It implies the random selection bit is only forced if you try to take over someone weaker or stronger (and then, by 4HD or more.) What if you aim for someone equal in strength to yourself? Could you target them then?

[ericgrau]

It takes a lot of planning, such as dropping the jar ahead of the party and letting him face the enemies alone (so no friendly targets) before the party charges in. Yet also having the body near enough to the jar in case the enemies figure it out before the first failed save. Or use it on undead without any setup. But as the OP pointed out the advantage is that very few things are immune unlike other spells. There are advantages and drawbacks.

Elaborate plans are one of the best parts of D&D and more ways to have them are good to let in.

[Psyren]

It takes a damn lot of planning to have a gem in place 90 ft. ahead of the party before a fight starts though. I've barely had any combats with a range of engagement that long or longer.

It works great for loners - bosses in particular - but in a party setting can result in a lot of friendly fire. And it gets even worse if the party (or the enemy!) has summons, familiars, animal companions etc. running around.

[Toliudar]

I don't know... given that the minimum radius is 90 ft., the restriction to force including allies in the random selection is going to nerf it to near-uselessness, especially when each attempt is a full-round action and they're forced to make a will save or be pre-warded. You could potentially waste a lot of actions, even those of your party (they lose their turn if they fail the save, unless you give up their body immediately before ending your turn - and it doesn't say what kind of action that requires.)

The wording is confusing though. It implies the random selection bit is only forced if you try to take over someone weaker or stronger (and then, by 4HD or more.) What if you aim for someone equal in strength to yourself? Could you target them then?

It seems pretty unambiguous to me, and I'd say that the randomness of the target selection is a major balancing factor for the spell, without by any means making it useless. It means that it's often safer to target mooks and bystanders (more than 4 hit dice less) or high-hit-dice monsters (great when your 10th-level party is targeted by a roc, for instance).

[Psyren]

How often do you face something 4HD above you though? Most monsters I see in the MM are within 1-2 HD of their CR, which means you can't distinguish them from allies unless they are way under your encounter level (in which case it doesn't matter how you dispose of them) or way over (in which case they're likely to make the save and the spell was a waste of time.)

So most enemies - i.e. CR-appropriate encounters - will be indistinguishable from your allies. Great if it works, but a waste of multiple actions if it doesn't. For the same full-round + standard I could summon something, or even two somethings, imo.

[ericgrau]

Most high level things, actually. Not outsiders nor humanoid NPCs but most big things have much more hd than cr. Giants, dragons, zombies, dire animals, dinosaurs, magical beasts, etc. Keep taking shots at the biggest one, succeed, then smash.

Or ya swarms of mooks too are much lower CR than the EL, and less likely to be big sized high HD things if for nothing other than mook flavor.

So for targets we got: planning, sentient undead, big sized things and minions. Not bad and not game breakingly good either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This spell seems like it would be a great candidate for the familiar's share spell ability.

Speaking of familiars, is there any reason that a raven, owl, or other avian familiar can't deliver the gem to a group of targets just prior to an ambush.

Wizard casts magic jar -> familiar delivers "jar" to hostiles more than 90ft from the party by air drop from at least 100ft altitude -> Wizard takes over enemy, picks up "jar," and gives signal to attack.

They'll never know what hit 'em.

[TuggyNE]

This spell seems like it would be a great candidate for the familiar's share spell ability.

Speaking of familiars, is there any reason that a raven, owl, or other avian familiar can't deliver the gem to a group of targets just prior to an ambush.

Wizard casts magic jar -> familiar delivers "jar" to hostiles more than 90ft from the party by air drop from at least 100ft altitude -> Wizard takes over enemy, picks up "jar," and gives signal to attack.

They'll never know what hit 'em.

That rather neatly solves nearly all the practical problems with the spell. Well done.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That rather neatly solves nearly all the practical problems with the spell. Well done.

Thanks.

I like to see the poor neglected familiar get some love now and again. Poor little guy gets traded away by nearly every ACF the wizard and sorcerer get. :smallfrown:

[QuidEst]

Hmm… a few thoughts on how to fix it:
-If the character is a spontaneous caster, make him expend a level higher slot for using it on creatures immune to mind-affecting. (Same DC as the lower level spell.)
-Give creatures immune to mind-affecting spells two saves.
-Increase casting time. While this won't really change the main use, it does force a little planning. Putting your soul in a jar with enough power to then kick out an unwilling soul seems like it'd be more like a minute casting time.
-Some mechanism for the trapped soul to attempt to take control of the caster's body. Way too severe for a reasonable player who has been careful not to overdo it.
-Change the focus cost to a material component cost- the jar is destroyed after use. This could scale with the HD, CR, or total mental stat bonus of whatever's being trapped. If this is a little much, you can have the jar survive if the soul is a certain amount beneath what it's "rated" for- that way he's encouraged to not just treat it as a boss-only nuke.
-A successful save immediately alerts whoever he was trying to take over to what's going on and where the crystal is.