Infinite Power Points! A Problem?

[metabolicjosh]

Thesis
There is a way to get infinite Power Points. Using Azure Talent, Psycarnum

Evidence
Azure Talent
Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat. You gain bonus power points equal to twice the invested essentia. Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours. If you have the ability to bind a soulmeld to your crown chakra (even if you don't have one currently bound), you gain an additional 2 bonus power points as long as at least 1 point of essentia is invested in this feat. You gain 1 point of essentia.
Psycarnum Infusion
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Until the start of your next turn, one of your soul-melds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity. You don't gain any bonus essentia from this effect.
So this is how they would interact.
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Until the start of your next turn you gain bonus power points equal to twice the maximum essentia you can invest in one of your soul-melds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles.
Argument
So here's the thing. You use Psycarnum Meditation so that you can use Azure Talent.(with extra effect) So Psycarnum Meditation's Effects are Primary. Azure Talent's Effects are Secondary. This means that any sustained effects are no longer in effect at the beginning of my next turn.
So by reading this you might think that it means, I can spend my Psionic Focus to gain (invested essentia X 2) 2 Power Points for one turn.
However I argue that gaining the bonus power points is a Instantaneous Effect. (Instantaneous Effects can not by undone, Except when a effect specifically state otherwise.) I argue this because it does not specify that the BPP go away. And the only time a effect has a "permanent" duration is through permanency. All other permanent effects are listed as Instantaneous. So the power points are permanent.
Proof
Just look at Orb of X Spells. These spells let You make a Orb of Acid. If you make a Orb of X the Orb is part of the world now, and its not going away. It works the same way that a Wall of Stone does.
Verdict
You can gain 2 Power Points a turn through this combo. And they stay in your pool until used, because they were granted by a instantaneous.

[Flickerdart]

Yep, this is a well known trick, except that instead of trying to bend the rules over backwards, people just use Bestow Power to give the PP back to themselves. Opponents argue that the "you may invest essentia into this feat once every 24 hours" means that you can only hit it once with Psycarnum.

[Lateral]

Uh... you have the same rules text for Azure Talent and Psycarnum Meditation.

[eggs]

Yup. It's not a new trick.

The problem this combo has is they're not temporary power points, so if you spend them, they're still coming out of your normal PP pool.

[metabolicjosh]

And i am trying to give them proof otherwise.
I reason that you either gain 2 that you can use, then repeat.
Or ,more likely, You get to gain 2 PP a turn and keep them.

[metabolicjosh]

What's to say you can't choose which power points you use? Like with spell slots.

[Flickerdart]

And i am trying to give them proof otherwise.
I reason that you either gain 2 that you can use, then repeat.
Or ,more likely, You get to gain 2 PP a turn and keep them.
Uh, no. You can't repeat, is the important objection.

Azure Talent clearly reads "Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat...Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours." Psycarnum Infusion reads "... is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity." So once you invest for the day (or treat it as if you had invested), that's it, the feat's done what it can for the day and you can't re-invest.

If you want infinite PP without silly pseudojustifications, then just use Wilder Wild Surging for +2, Bestow Power and Midnight Augmentation.

[metabolicjosh]

Uh... you have the same rules text for Azure Talent and Psycarnum Meditation.

Ah it hates me and wont save my edits!

[eggs]

What's to say you can't choose which power points you use? Like with spell slots.
It doesn't matter which points you lose. If they're not temporary PP, they're all the same: You pull the Psycarnum Infusion trick, add 2-12 bonus PP to your PP pool, spend however many PP to manifest a power, the round ends, Psycarnum Infusion wears off, Azure Talent stops granting its benefit, reducing your PP pool by 2-12 points.

[metabolicjosh]

Ok look.

You gave me a cookie.
And you want it back.
But i already ate the cookie.
You cant take my other cookies.
They are not yours.

You have no right... you gave me a cookie.
I just happened to eat it.

Now i'm hungry look at what you did!

[Flickerdart]

Ok look.

You gave me a cookie.
And you want it back.
But i already ate the cookie.
You cant take my other cookies.
They are not yours.

You have no right... you gave me a cookie.
I just happened to eat it.

Now i'm hungry look at what you did!
I gave you a cookie, and you ate it. But you still have 50 cookies, from which I happily revoke the one you owe me.

[metabolicjosh]

BUT YOU GAVE IT TO ME
YOU DID NOT LEASE IT
SO NO I WONT LET YOU TAKE THEM!

No but seriously. If your a sorcerer
Say you use a spell that raises a casting stat to where you get a bonus spell slot.
You then use the spell slot.
And the spell wares off.
You don't lose a spell slot!

Wotc even said so somewhere.
Not quite sure where... DMG?
But really why do you think that you could take my other Cookies?
They have nothing to do with the situation other than being a cookie.

[Flickerdart]

The spellcasting mechanics of Sorcerers have nothing to do with psionics, because spell slots are discrete whereas power points are pooled.

Also, you still have not given an answer to how you get away with violating the "once every 24 hours" and "once invested, it cannot be altered" clauses of Azure Talent.

[metabolicjosh]

I did though!

See it is only treated that way until the beginning of my next turn! See Psycarnum Infusion.

[metabolicjosh]

I am sorry the post keeps switching the spoilers! I think I fixed it though... Technology just loves to hate me.:smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

I did though!

See it is only treated that way until the beginning of my next turn! See Psycarnum Infusion.
No, that's not how causality works.

Step 1: You invest essentia into the thing (or dupe it using Infusion).
Step 2: Essentia has now been invested and the receptacle locks.
Step 3: Essentia goes away.
Step 4: Essentia was still invested into the receptacle today, and you can't do it again.

[metabolicjosh]

NO!

Essentia is not put into it!

The feat is only treated as being filled for one round!
After that round it 'Forgets' that anything has been done to it.
However because the power points are instantaneous they stay!
And Power Points are individual items!
If i have 50 Gp I have a Money Pool!
If I pay for a guy for a piece of pie, then i can choose which Gp's I give him.
Furthermore Wotc has in the past refereed to spells as a pool of spell slots.

[Flickerdart]

NO!
Yes.



Essentia is not put into it!

The feat is only treated as being filled for one round!
So?


After that round it 'Forgets' that anything has been done to it.
No it doesn't. Why would it? The feat doesn't change the past.



However because the power points are instantaneous they stay!

You can't have it both ways. Either the feat forgets what happened (in which case your PP is gone), or it doesn't (in which case you can't re-invest).



And Power Points are individual items!
No, they're a pool.



If i have 50 Gp I have a Money Pool!

No you don't. You have 50 gp.



If I pay for a guy for a piece of pie, then i can choose which Gp's I give him.

If someone makes your wallet "treated as though it had" 10 more GP than it did, and then you buy a pie (dropping your GP "total" from "60" to "50") and then took away the effect that increased it from "60" to "50", then your GP total becomes 40.



Furthermore Wotc has in the past refereed to spells as a pool of spell slots.
a) irrelevant, b) source?

[metabolicjosh]

A cup is treated as being full of sand for one round.

Lets explore what this actually means.

1. The subject is a cup. Am I right?

2. The subject has a duration FOR ONE ROUND. Only one round, not more or less. It only said one round!

3. The subject is under a effect of "full" during this time. Being treated as full.

So that means that; During the Duration, All clauses of the contract apply! And once the duration expires the Contract's Clauses no longer apply.
This means that during 6 seconds you can do this once per day.This is the English meaning of the words.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@flickerdart: let's say, hypothetically, that at the beginning of the day, right after meditating to recharge your PP, you invest the one point of essentia that comes with azure talent in it.

Can psycarnum infusion's effect still be applied to azure talent, or is it "locked" because you've already invested in it today?

[eggs]

You're describing temporary power points (see the sidebar here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827b)), which are a unique thing specifically designed to work differently.

[Flickerdart]

A cup is treated as being full of sand for one round.

Lets explore what this actually means.

1. The subject is a cup. Am I right?

2. The subject has a duration FOR ONE ROUND. Only one round, not more or less. It only said one round!

3. The subject is under a effect of "full" during this time. Being treated as full.

So that means that; During the Duration, All clauses of the contract apply! And once the duration expires the Contract's Clauses no longer apply.
This means that during 6 seconds you can do this once per day.This is the English meaning of the words.
Certainly not any English that I speak. Once you have put sand in the cup, the sand has been in the cup. After you take it out of the cup, it was still in the cup earlier.


@flickerdart: let's say, hypothetically, that at the beginning of the day, right after meditating to recharge your PP, you invest the one point of essentia that comes with azure talent in it.

Can psycarnum infusion's effect still be applied to azure talent, or is it "locked" because you've already invested in it today?
I would say that yes, you used your one 24 hour investment already.

[metabolicjosh]

That is real world...
English contracts work differently...
Why do you think that the world hates us, Attorneys, we confuse them when we write contracts...

Most often people read one thing and relate it to how the world works. But thats not how language works. You can't add information. So it said its rules only applied during 6 seconds. I do agree that you should get PP for a round only. but People like to bestow power to keep them...

[eggs]

The Incarnum feat may not have essentia invested more than once in a day.
Psycarnum Infusion does not invest essentia, it treats incarnum receptacles as if they had been invested with essentia.
Incarnum feats have no limit on how often they can be treated as having more essentia invested.

I don't see any problem with that part of the combo.

[Flickerdart]

That is real world...
English contracts work differently...
Why do you think that the world hates us, Attorneys, we confuse them when we write contracts...

Most often people read one thing and relate it to how the world works. But thats not how language works. You can't add information. So it said its rules only applied during 6 seconds. I do agree that you should get PP for a round only. but People like to bestow power to keep them...
So in fact the combo your argued so vehemently for for the past little while only works the way I said in the first reply. I'm glad we're on the same page. :smalltongue:

[metabolicjosh]

To be fair if I treat you as taking 1d4 damage when you are at -9 you die.
To treat something as being blank. Means that all of blanks effects apply.
But that's not what I'm arguing

Meant 9 sorry

[metabolicjosh]

So in fact the combo your argued so vehemently for for the past little while only works the way I said in the first reply. I'm glad we're on the same page. :smalltongue:

I agree that it work with bestow power for sure. But it should also technicaly work with out it. But bestow power isn't that hard to use

[eggs]

I agree that it work with bestow power for sure. But it should also technicaly work with out it. But bestow power isn't that hard to use
If your argument is based on nothing saying the PP go away, but both Psycarnum Infusion and Azure Talent come with durations (ie. statements saying the PP go away), I don't know what to tell you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would say that yes, you used your one 24 hour investment already.

So if those are the only two incarnum feats my non-meldshaper character has taken, either the point of essentia that came with azure talent is worthless or psycarnum infusion is worthless, depending on which one I decided to use that day?

What about if your pp reserve is empty when you use psycarnum infusion on azure talent? You get the two pp, spend them on something other than bestow power; say dump them into a cognizance crystal; then pyscarnum infusion wears off and you're at -2 PP?

[Flickerdart]

So if those are the only two incarnum feats my non-meldshaper character has taken, either the point of essentia that came with azure talent is worthless or psycarnum infusion is worthless, depending on which one I decided to use that day?
Look on the bright side, at least you're not stuck in an endless loop of being able and not able to use your feats at the same time. I'm looking at you, Dragon Disciple.


What about if your pp reserve is empty when you use psycarnum infusion on azure talent? You get the two pp, spend them on something other than bestow power, then pyscarnum infusion wears off and you're at -2 PP?
You wouldn't be at negative PP because that's not a thing, but you could slice it both ways, I think, with more or less equal RAW backing. Either rolling back the faux-investiture takes away the PP you got (so you're in the hole) or like Azure Talent's normal use, they stick around (or, as it were, not, because you spent them). With the second interpretation, of course, you'd be a fool to tangle up real essentia into Azure Talent if you had Psycarnum Infusion available. It's pretty clear that WotC expected the bonus from Azure Talent to remain static once granted, because testing the feats in the same book to work with one another takes effort.

What you wouldn't get, though, is to keep the PP without having spent them. "Until end of turn" is pretty cut and dry in that regard.

[Cor1]

Let's not derail this too much? I was curious about the uses people would have found for infinite power points, not how the OP poorly defends his trick's workings.

And it doesn't do what he wants it to.
Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight Augmentation + Bestow Power would do it.

Midnight Augmentation, you set it to work on Bestow Power. Now the augmentation cost of Bestow Power is reduced by one.
Then you expend a psionic focus in Psycarnum Infusion so that Midnight Augmentation is maxed; as this trick works only if you have all the feats and a 2nd-level power, you'll have an essentia cap of 2 at least. (Or not. You could get that combo al lvl3. But by then it's better to use Earth Sense + Earth Power and a Torc of Power Preservation, and upgrade to this method with Psychic Reformation later.)

So, you keep Midnight Augmentation keyed to Bestow Power. Augmenting this one now costs 2 pp instead of 3, and each augmentation gives 2 pp. Psycarnum Infusion lets you expend a psifocus to max Midnight Augmentation to its essentia cap, so each augmentation of Bestow Power costs one pp.

But there is an other way to interpret Midnight Augmentation. The text is very unclear : maybe it does not reduce the cost of each augmentation, but the cost of all the augmentation. Meaning, if you invest 5 Essentia in Midnight Augmentation (Bestow Power), you could reduce the cost of two augmentations to one pp. (So, 3pp for the power, +6-5 = 4pp to gain back 6pp.)

[Flickerdart]

So, you keep Midnight Augmentation keyed to Bestow Power. Augmenting this one now costs 2 pp instead of 3, and each augmentation gives 2 pp. Psycarnum Infusion lets you expend a psifocus to max Midnight Augmentation to its essentia cap, so each augmentation of Bestow Power costs one pp.
You need a focus for Midnight Augmentation and a focus for Psycarnum Fusion. How many feats do you have again?


But there is an other way to interpret Midnight Augmentation. The text is very unclear : maybe it does not reduce the cost of each augmentation, but the cost of all the augmentation. Meaning, if you invest 5 Essentia in Midnight Augmentation (Bestow Power), you could reduce the cost of two augmentations to one pp. (So, 3pp for the power, +6-5 = 4pp to gain back 6pp.)
Doesn't work - you can't invest more than 2 into Bestow Power because its power level is 2.

The easiest way to do it that's also bulletproof is Wilder 4. Our Wilder learns Bestow Power and manifests it on himself after a Wild Surge +2 (total ML 6). He dumps 2 Essentia into Midnight Augmentation (not difficult to get by this level even if you use real essentia). Now if he manifests a Bestow Power augmented twice (normally a 9 PP cost for 6 PP return), he gets a 4 PP discount for his two augments due to Midnight Augmentation, and a 2 PP augmentation discount because of the Wild Surge. That, you may notice, has bought off the cost of augmenting the power altogether. He spends 3 PP, gets 6 PP back. Augmenting it does cost 1 PP each time, so he could do 3 more augmentations, getting 12 PP from spending 6. Every once in a while he'll Enervate and lose some PP, but a 10% chance of losing 4 power points is irrelevant once you get half again that many the next round.

[Cor1]

You need a focus for Midnight Augmentation and a focus for Psycarnum Fusion. How many feats do you have again?


Doesn't work - you can't invest more than 2 into Bestow Power because its power level is 2.

Yeah, so the augmentation cost is now 1pp. It workk : 3pp for manifesting. +1 for 1 augmentation. +1 for second augmentation. Total cost : 5pp. Total gained : 6pp. No problem.

Ofc, if it's only for mitigating the cost of the total augmentation, then it's pretty useless. That would insert one more limitation in a system that already has a lot of them. My reading is broken, yeah, I know, but otherwise it's pretty useless : you can key it to one psionic power per day, you can't invest more essentia than the power's level, and it's also capped by how much essentia you can invest in a receptacle, and (indirectly) by your normal manifesting limit, that's a lot of limitations.

But my recharge method works from lvl 6 up, or lvl 5 with a Torc of Power Preservation. It's specialized, but you can't beat recharge... (Wizards have Reserve feats, which are much cheaper, but they can't just meditate for regaining spell slots.)

It's not even all that broken, because Psions have stupid amounts of power points, and recharging, say, 85 pp (enough for five 9th-level powers), takes about 7 minutes. That just won't happen in combat, unless you're already Persisting your Temporal Acceleration (and in that case you don't need a recharge method).

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, so the augmentation cost is now 1pp. It workk : 3pp for manifesting. +1 for 1 augmentation. +1 for second augmentation. Total cost : 5pp. Total gained : 6pp. No problem.
That quote was in response to using Psycarnum Infusion to invest 5 essentia, not the first thing, which should have been pretty obvious considering that was the passage I quoted.


But my recharge method works from lvl 6 up, or lvl 5 with a Torc of Power Preservation.
You may have trouble being able to afford the unlimited-use Torc at that level. And you still need to solve the double-focus problem if you insist on using Infusion. Easiest way to do that would be to pop Infusion at the start of the round, then focus as a move action, then use Midnight Augmentation, but that still only gives you 1 PP every other round and costs a ton of feats - Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Infusion, Improved Essentia Capacity if you want to do it before 6th, Psionic Meditation. That's 5 feats. Flaw, Flaw, Human, 1, 3, that's all your feats. Not very economical.

[sreservoir]

get enough essentia through incarnum feats and race -- azurin is pretty great for this -- and you don't really need psycarnum infusion for midnight augmentation, I don't think, and that saves you a focus, too.

[metabolicjosh]

That quote was in response to using Psycarnum Infusion to invest 5 essentia, not the first thing, which should have been pretty obvious considering that was the passage I quoted.


You may have trouble being able to afford the unlimited-use Torc at that level. And you still need to solve the double-focus problem. Easiest way to do that would be to pop Infusion at the start of the round, then focus as a move action, then use Midnight Augmentation, but that still only gives you 1 PP every other round and costs a ton of feats - Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Infusion, Improved Essentia Capacity if you want to do it before 6th, Psionic Meditation. That's 5 feats. Flaw, Flaw, Human, 1, 3, that's all your feats. Not very economical.

Not very economical? you get to cast as many powers as you want!
for five feats. That is a fair trade because DM's are more likely to allow it. Vs Temp. Accel.

[Flickerdart]

get enough essentia through incarnum feats and race -- azurin is pretty great for this -- and you don't really need psycarnum infusion for midnight augmentation, I don't think, and that saves you a focus, too.
Which is the thing the Wilder above is doing, yeah.


Not very economical? you get to cast as many powers as you want!
for five feats. That is a fair trade because DM's are more likely to allow it. Vs Temp. Accel.
Or you can do it cheaper and faster with my method. So no, not economical.

[Cor1]

That quote was in response to using Psycarnum Infusion to invest 5 essentia, not the first thing, which should have been pretty obvious considering that was the passage I quoted.

Frankly, my first post here was more about the general ideas I gathered from skimming the thread, so I adressed things in the OP that didn't seem to have been adressed completely yet. But yeah, 5 Essentia is a lot, and having them without real Shaper levels requires level what again, 18? Without the feat.


You may have trouble being able to afford the unlimited-use Torc at that level. And you still need to solve the double-focus problem if you insist on using Infusion. Easiest way to do that would be to pop Infusion at the start of the round, then focus as a move action, then use Midnight Augmentation, but that still only gives you 1 PP every other round and costs a ton of feats - Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Infusion, Improved Essentia Capacity if you want to do it before 6th, Psionic Meditation. That's 5 feats. Flaw, Flaw, Human, 1, 3, that's all your feats. Not very economical.

Oh, I forgot about the multiple foci issue. Basically I store my eligible psionic feats in my pair of Psycristals. I never played low-enough level that I had trouble fitting all necessary feats in my feat battery, or manifesting Psychic Refomation. So, yeah, using those tricks requires 7th level, unless you shenanigan with Ardent manifesting and ML augmenters.

As for action economy, well, my pair of psicrystals, my clone, and his pair of psicrystals, would like to have a little conversation with the action economy, in fact. (Yeah, by level 15 or something, I know.)

Also, Psychic Reformation on the Psicrystal(s) (Metamorphed if they can't lower their mind-affecting immunity), and you give them Hidden Talent (or Wild Talent if the other is banned), and now your psicrystal(s) are psionic creatures that can psionically focus themselves, if they can meet the skill check. So, you can share a feat leech to yourself emanating from one of them, so you share all their feats and yours (up to your Wis mod, minimum one). Voilà, you and your pet rock(s) can each use a move action to get a psionic focus. I've checked this a zillion times, twisted it in every way, and concluded : "RAW, it works".

[Flickerdart]

Frankly, my first post here was more about the general ideas I gathered from skimming the thread, so I adressed things in the OP that didn't seem to have been adressed completely yet. But yeah, 5 Essentia is a lot, and having them without real Shaper levels requires level what again, 18? Without the feat.

Without the feat, the cap is 4.



Oh, I forgot about the multiple foci issue. Basically I store my eligible psionic feats in my pair of Psycristals.
Takes a full round action to focus one.



Also, Psychic Reformation on the Psicrystal(s) (Metamorphed if they can't lower their mind-affecting immunity), and you give them Hidden Talent (or Wild Talent if the other is banned), and now your psicrystal(s) are psionic creatures that can psionically focus themselves, if they can meet the skill check. So, you can share a feat leech to yourself emanating from one of them, so you share all their feats and yours (up to your Wis mod, minimum one). Voilà, you and your pet rock(s) can each use a move action to get a psionic focus. I've checked this a zillion times, twisted it in every way, and concluded : "RAW, it works".
The same feat that allows you to use your crystal's focus also specifically makes it so that the crystal can't focus itself, even if it could by the more general case of being a psionic creature.

[Cor1]

Without the feat, the cap is 4.

What, at level 18? Really? Ok, I remembered it wrong.


Takes a full round action to focus one.
Psionic Meditation



The same feat that allows you to use your crystal's focus also specifically makes it so that the crystal can't focus itself, even if it could by the more general case of being a psionic creature.

Thing is, it's already forbidden to psionically focus because it's a psicrystal. But that's erased by Hidden/Wild Talent. If I put the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment in the first psicrystal, and Psionic Meditation in the second psicrystal, it should work, if I wisely choose which feats go where in the share feat leech loop, and in which order they apply. Or f I got it wrong, put it back in order : Psicrystal Affinity in the first (hurr) and Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation in the second. Or Psionic Meditation in yourself. That's what Psychic Reformation is for.

As for the action economy, twin synchronicities in an affinity field generally take care of that (also : fission, twin schism, extended temporal acceleration, overchannel, practiced manifester), but that's high level. It can technically be done with Soul Crystals, but that's a different trick.

[Flickerdart]

Thing is, it's already forbidden to psionically focus because it's a psicrystal. But that's erased by Hidden/Wild Talent. If I put the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment in the first psicrystal, and Psionic Meditation in the second psicrystal, it should work, if I wisely choose which feats go where in the share feat leech loop, and in which order they apply. Or f I got it wrong, put it back in order : Psicrystal Affinity in the first (hurr) and Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation in the second. Or Psionic Meditation in yourself. That's what Psychic Reformation is for.

No. The rule that a psionic creature can focus is a general rule. The rule that your psicrystal cannot focus itself is a specific rule. Specific trumps general. Even if your crystal becomes [Psionic], it's not allowed to. And your Psionic Meditation won't extend to it, so it can't be focused as a move.

[Cor1]

Wild/Hidden Talent specifically states that the creature can focus itself. It's not explicit, but it's at least arguable. The definition of a Psionic character bestowed by Wild/Hidden Talent includes the ability to psionically focus itself.

It changes the details of my trick, but since I had halfway forgotten about Twin Schism, it doesn't matter : those can certainly gain focus and store them in the psicrystals. But it ups the cost for beginning to recharge significantly.

[Flickerdart]

The definition of a Psionic character bestowed by Wild/Hidden Talent includes the ability to psionically focus itself.
Yes, but the text of Psicrystal Containment (which lets you benefit from the focuses of your crystals in the first place) explicitly states that the crystals can't focus themselves. This rule is more specific than, and therefore trumps, the rule that psionic creatures with a PP reserve can focus.

[Cor1]

Hmm, arguably, if you apply Hidden Talent after Psicrystal Containment, it makes of a psicrystal that can't focus itself a psionic character capable of doing so. Dunno if that's possible, or if Psicrystal Containment is more specific at preventing psicrystals from focusing.

If the Psicrystal Containment is in the first psicrystal, and the second has psionic meditation, can't the second one focus itself? It doesn't have Psicrystal Containment, but it has Hidden Talent too. Would it work that way, by RAW?

[Flickerdart]

To benefit from the focus of a psicrystal, the psicrystal has to be affected by the "can't focus itself" clause of Containment.

[metabolicjosh]

flickerdart just stop with the fighting. Everyone else lets this die.

[Flickerdart]

flickerdart just stop with the fighting. Everyone else lets this die.
Never!
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Cor1]

Okay, okay, won't work that way.

Care to tell whether a Twin Schism (nothing forbids that) could gain foci and store them inside the psicrystals?

[Flickerdart]

Schismed minds can't take full round actions, only standard actions.

[Psyren]

It doesn't matter which points you lose. If they're not temporary PP, they're all the same: You pull the Psycarnum Infusion trick, add 2-12 bonus PP to your PP pool, spend however many PP to manifest a power, the round ends, Psycarnum Infusion wears off, Azure Talent stops granting its benefit, reducing your PP pool by 2-12 points.



You can't have it both ways. Either the feat forgets what happened (in which case your PP is gone), or it doesn't (in which case you can't re-invest).

These two are the key quotes to keep in mind here. Eggs is right; Bonus PP != Temporary PP. Bonus PP work exactly as if gained from a high ability score; for example, a Psion who goes to bed wearing his Headband of Intellect will wake up the following day with additional bonus PP due to his higher Int score.

When Psycarnum Infusion wears off, Azure Talent drops back down to its normal value; this works the same way as if the Psion in my example above were to take his headband off during the day, i.e. he would immediately lose the PP he had gained from it that morning. Similarly, if he had spent any PP between waking and removing the headband, that much PP would still be gone from his now lower-maximum pool. When Azure Talent goes back down, it would work the same way. Bonus PP are not "lost first" the way Temp PP are.

[Cor1]

These two are the key quotes to keep in mind here. Eggs is right; Bonus PP != Temporary PP. Bonus PP work exactly as if gained from a high ability score; for example, a Psion who goes to bed wearing his Headband of Intellect will wake up the following day with additional bonus PP due to his higher Int score.

When Psycarnum Infusion wears off, Azure Talent drops back down to its normal value; this works the same way as if the Psion in my example above were to take his headband off during the day, i.e. he would immediately lose the PP he had gained from it that morning. Similarly, if he had spent any PP between waking and removing the headband, that much PP would still be gone from his now lower-maximum pool. When Azure Talent goes back down, it would work the same way. Bonus PP are not "lost first" the way Temp PP are.

I think you got it wrong. It's been addressed somewhere (on a forum like BG or WotC minmax boards, can't remember), but the bonus PP for high ability scores are spent first. So, if, say, the psion removes the headband of intellect after manifesting some daily buffs, the spent pp are not retroactively substracted from the psion's daily pool (class + bonus from high ability, natural and/or augmented by an other type of buff).

The official example I remember was about a Cleric casting Eagle's Splendor, thus gaining two additional turn attempts. It was said that the Cleric can spend them before his other daily turn attempts, but they don't come back next time he casts Eagle's Splendor : those two "slots" have been burned for the day.

I don't remember that it said anything about other bonuses. I'd say, if that Cleric happened to have +4 Exalted (is that a thing?) Bonus to his Charisma, I'd say he gets two other bonus Turn attempts, going away with the effect if not used before it stops. If it stops. Because, the Cleric would have, with the +4 from Eagle's Splendor (Enhancement) and +4 from Whatever (Exalted), he could spend two Turn attempts per bonus, so those should not be lost if the "place of the slots" happen to overlap.

So, it's the same for power points and bonus spell slots. You can expend them first. But if you expend your power points from Headband of Intellect, take it off, and then manifest Animal Affinity (Int) you won't regain two Int mod worth of power points, because it's the same bonus. Now if you use Assimilate (9th level power, if it kills something you get +4 untyped to all your abilities), you do get (2 * half your psion level) bonus power points in addition to those from Headband of Intellect.

Let me put it the other way around. I know this one in-and-out. Say, you have the naked Psion. He manifests Animal Affinity (Int) : +4 Enhancement. Then manifests a couple of daily powers. Then, the effect of Animal Affinity wear off, and he puts on a Headband of Intellect +6 Enhancement. The bonus power points from the first four Enhancement to Int have been spent, so the psion only gains bonus power points for two ability points from it.

Now, the next day. Our Psion has noticed he's doing it backwards, and Assimilates a rat from his bag of tricks. He gains +4 untyped to all abilities with that breakfast. Funny thing, if he's lvl 17, he gains as many power points from that buff as it costs in the first place, so at higher class levels, he gains more points than it costs (if it kills something, but nothing out of a cheapest Bag of Tricks resists a 17th level psion).
Now he has 2 * (Class lvl / 2) bonus power points. Then, still under the buff from Assimilate, he puts on the Headband. He gains 3 * (Class lvl / 2) bonus power points. Those from the Enhancement bonus will not go away after the effects of Assimilate disappear.

For Azure Talent, yeah, it's a little useless like that, because you can only invest Essentia in it once a day, thus gaining bonus power points once a day. And that feat should logically follow what I said above with bonus power points from different bonus to abilities, it's just a different source of power points (that all go in the same pool. The psionic rules are a maze of twisty little passages.)

[Psyren]

Spell slots, cleric turn attempts etc. are not analogous, because those are discrete units. Thus you can choose which ones to use first. Power points don't work that way; they're consolidated into a shared pool, and only in the case of temporary PP (not bonus PP) can you use those first.

I'm not sure which "forum post" you read but if you have a RAW source I'll read it.

[Cor1]

Spell slots, cleric turn attempts etc. are not analogous, because those are discrete units. Thus you can choose which ones to use first. Power points don't work that way; they're consolidated into a shared pool, and only in the case of temporary PP (not bonus PP) can you use those first.

I'm not sure which "forum post" you read but if you have a RAW source I'll read it.

So, if you remove an Item of Manifesting Stat +6 when you're lvl 18, you lose 36 pp? What if you have 12 left? That makes no sense. Then if you use a soul crystal of assimilate and gain +4 untyped, what does it do? Refill the negatives?



Schismed minds can't take full round actions, only standard actions.

Yeah, and they can't focus in a standard action even if they can do it in a move action. I remember that one. Maybe with Twin Hustle, but that eats the swift for Temporal Acceleration. Choices, choices...