Crusaders Stuck as tanks?

[silverwolfer]

Well...I guess they could be bruisers to , but all in all, are crusaders stuck as being tanks?

[Ernir]

They can mount as effective an offense as any full BAB class, and more effective than most. Take a look through their lists of Strikes, some of them are quite good.

I'd also like to point out that the tank/brawl/charge/general melee guy distinction isn't as clear cut in D&D 3.5 as it could be.

[Psyren]

As opposed to "dps?" D&D doesn't really work like that.

They are, however, not great at long-range.

[Snowbluff]

No, they make great support and can dish out decent damage. They are straight up better off than Fighters/Barbarians. Just because they are particularly tough doesn't preclude the use of ubercharging or the like. In fact, White Raven makes powerful charges really easy.

[RFLS]

No, they make great support and can dish out decent damage. They are straight up better off than Fighters/Barbarians. Just because they are particularly tough doesn't preclude the use of ubercharging or the like. In fact, White Raven makes powerful charges really easy.

Pretty much all of the Schools can make powerful charges easy. Crusaders tend to be good at charging because they can survive the punishment you typically end up taking after a charge.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They get some good strikes at certain levels, the most glaring is Divine Surge's ridiculous +8d8 damage at level 7.

The level 6 lawful stance by default makes a crusader decent as a skill monkey, since he can just Take 11 on skill checks.

As for ranged...they're the ONLY one of the three adept classes to come with ranged martial weapon proficiency...

[silverwolfer]

haha ...stone bones crossbow strike?

[Ziegander]

haha ...stone bones crossbow strike?

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, all Tome of Battle strikes have to be made as melee attacks.

[Medic!]

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, all Tome of Battle strikes have to be made as melee attacks.

Some of the boosts or stances might help ranged attacks some, but usually not enough to make it more worth your time than going melee, provided you're able.

Small tangent: Some nights I lay awake tittering like a little girl about building a warlock/hellfire warlock and crusader gestalt to use Aura of Chaos along with a fistfull-of-d6s hellfire Eldritch Glaive. Something like 20d6 4 times a round on a touch attack and adding a new d6 to the pile every time one came up a 6 sounded appealing on the surface.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, all Tome of Battle strikes have to be made as melee attacks.

Not true, actually. A lot of maneuvers do declare that it has to be a melee attack, but not all of them have such distinction.

[silverwolfer]

Hmm, right now am playing a no magic game, and crusader has been fun, just trying to find a prc that matches with it thou is a pain.

[Medic!]

One of the funnest characters I've played to-date was a Hellbred Crusader 10/Warblade 2 with a vicious vampiric spiked chain (later made +4 and adamantine by the DM) item familiar. Gave him the Fearsome Armor from DotU and Imperious Command (with Never Outnumbered), pumped his concentration and intimidate into the stratosphere, and picked up the Insightful Strike line and Moment of Perfect Mind to round out his survivability (and his ability to ready an action to dump a DC 100+ conc check on enemy casters, b/c our DM never casts defensively.)

Who needs a PrC for Crusader? They're <3. Their capstone seems a little underwhelming, but it's a great sneaky-back-door to an extra effective +6 enhancement bonus to your weapon. Not too shabby!

Dumb story:
The campaign we were in's BBEG was our DM's PC from another campaign, a CE elven wizard with a pension for Phantasmal Killers and Necrotic magic, elevated to epic or near-epic level. The entire party was scared out of their wits (IC and OOC) of that wizard until we had our "Impossible Fight" first in-person meeting with him and Enter: The Crusader! The idea was that he'd one-shot each party member to show the difference in power, then fade as a mysterious illusion used to test our mettle by another NPC we were trying to befriend. It worked great until my crusader waltzed into the room and pulled out a 60+ will save and scooted into "You just provoked an AoO" range, lol

[Ziegander]

Not true, actually. A lot of maneuvers do declare that it has to be a melee attack, but not all of them have such distinction.

Note that I said, strikes, not maneuvers. Also, I meant that all strikes that require a weapon attack of any kind always require that you make melee weapon attacks. Aside from Desert Wind and Shadow Hand maneuvers, I can't think of a single strike that is not a melee attack (EDIT: Iron Heart's Lightning Throw, which, requires the use of a melee weapon and is treated for most purposes as a melee attack), and even the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand maneuvers that aren't melee attacks have some special attack of their own and do not allow the initiator to use a ranged weapon for their attack (even if they allow for an attack at range).

[Gray Mage]

Note that I said, strikes, not maneuvers. Also, I meant that all strikes that require a weapon attack of any kind always require that you make melee weapon attacks. Aside from Desert Wind and Shadow Hand maneuvers, I can't think of a single strike that is not a melee attack (EDIT: Iron Heart's Lightning Throw, which, requires the use of a melee weapon and is treated for most purposes as a melee attack), and even the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand maneuvers that aren't melee attacks have some special attack of their own and do not allow the initiator to use a ranged weapon for their attack (even if they allow for an attack at range).

There are a couple of Strikes that don't require melee attacks, but they are scattered outside of homebrew. Time Stands Still is one of them, if I remember correctly.

[Ziegander]

There are a couple of Strikes that don't require melee attacks, but they are scattered outside of homebrew. Time Stands Still is one of them, if I remember correctly.

Ah, wow, you are correct about Time Stands Still anyway! :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

As for ranged...they're the ONLY one of the three adept classes to come with ranged martial weapon proficiency...

My notes on Ranged Crusaders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12450184&postcount=3). (Odd. I thought I had some notes on races for ranged crusaders, but apparently not. Anyway, Lesser/Savage Progression Aasimar FTW.)

Other than tanking, Crusaders do pretty well as lockdown trippers (battlefield control) with reach + thicket of blades. An Eternal Crusbow with Time Stands Still + Island In Time could probably make an interesting nova strike as an archer. There may also be a decent Demoralize/Imperious Command build in there somewhere.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Other than tanking, Crusaders do pretty well as lockdown trippers (battlefield control) with reach + thicket of blades.

...When anyone experienced with 3.5 says "tanking", they mean "crowd control".

[Medic!]

...When anyone experienced with 3.5 says "tanking", they mean "crowd control".

When I say "tanking" I mean moving at 20ft land speed and destroying everything in my path as I ignore all the puny things bouncing off of me with little to no effect! :smallcool:

[silverwolfer]

can a crusader "tank" well enough with a guresiame?

[Gavinfoxx]

can a crusader "tank" well enough with a guresiame?

Can a Crusader Tank well with a Guisarme?

Seeing as how that is probably the second best weapon for a Tank in the game... and the Crusader is possibly the best class for Tanking in the game...

Yes. Very much so, yes!

[Keld Denar]

Hmm, right now am playing a no magic game, and crusader has been fun, just trying to find a prc that matches with it thou is a pain.

The best PrC for a Crusader, especially in a non-magic game, is MOAR CRUSADER! They are like druids, they pretty much benefit most from not PrCing, but can still do so and be awesome, just to a slightly lesser degree.

[silverwolfer]

So in general treat TOB classes, like casting levels, only good ones are to keep it the same.

[Big Fau]

So in general treat TOB classes, like casting levels, only good ones are to keep it the same.

Not always. Most of the time, multiclassing out of a Martial Adept isn't as useful as the maneuvers you trade out. There are exceptions, such as most of the PrCs in the Bo9S itself (which are a tradeoff of maneuver quantity and versatility), and the Martial Adepts are always dip-friendly.

That said, Crusader 20 is an excellent build for any level of optimization. It's easy enough for beginners, yet flexible enough for the experienced players. Even the Swordsage (which has the worst chasis out of the three Martial Adepts) can be taken to 20th and still be a very potent build.


However, I do have a recommendation: If you aren't going for RKV, Eternal Blade, JPM, or Mo9, don't multiclass out of Crusader unless you are trying to delay your 8th level stance so you can get Stance of Immortal Fortitude.

[Snowbluff]

The best PrC for a Crusader, especially in a non-magic game, is MOAR CRUSADER! They are like druids, they pretty much benefit most from not PrCing, but can still do so and be awesome, just to a slightly lesser degree.

Well, except Windicator is Crusader exclusive, and pretty game breaking. Eternal Blade is almost as game breaking for the same reason (DAT CAPSTONE!).

Jade Phoenix Mage is bad and nobody likes him. Not even JPM. Or swordsages.

[Darrin]

The best PrC for a Crusader, especially in a non-magic game, is MOAR CRUSADER! They are like druids, they pretty much benefit most from not PrCing, but can still do so and be awesome, just to a slightly lesser degree.

I disagree. A two-level dip helps stagger their IL to pick up some better stances (assuming you aren't using the corrected stances from the errata project), and unlike Warblade, there's not much of a capstone to lose out on. Eternal Blade gives them a decent capstone worthy of level 20.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, it's not just the complete lack of level 8 stance (I don't even care for the DS one that much), but ALL their stances past the first one are messed the hell up.

Also, I think dipping another adept class to have good maneuvers to use on rounds the random dice gods have left you dissapointed is pretty nice, too.

[navar100]

Master of Nine helps Crusader a lot despite the hit in HD and BAB. Crusader needs to multiclass two levels in swordsage or warblade. Use unarmored swordsage variant to save a feat prerequisite but not required. Do take Extra Granted Maneuver feat. Enter Master of Nine at 11th level from crusader 8/swordsage or warblade 2 always improving Crusader maneuver progression. At Master of Nine 2 you get a stance which can be a 6th level stance from Devoted Spirit without having to spend a feat for it as needed for single class Crusader. I'm very partial to Aura of Perfect Order. Finish Master of Nine then continue Crusader. By character level 18 you will have 11 maneuvers readied, 9 granted, and refresh for free every three rounds. That is AWESOME!

[Manly Man]

As many others have said, the Crusader is good for pretty much any melee role you can shake a stick at. Warblades are built more for an offensive focus, while Swordsages are good for secondary melee and being able to do pretty much anything decently, what with how many skill points and maneuvers they get. Ninjas ain't got nothin' on Swordsages.