The top 1%

[Anderlith]

So if one was to take all the classes in Tier 1, & arrange them in power level what would they be?

[toapat]

So if one was to take all the classes in Tier 1, & arrange them in power level what would they be?

Wizard+Archivist<Artificer<Cleric+Druid<Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)<Artificer

Wizard and Archivist are not as hilariously borked as the other 4 T1s, they only have spellcasting as their thing

Artificer and Spell to Power varient Erudite have access to every spell on 3 very powerful spell lists.

Cleric has Divine Metamagic, which, expecially if you use the original version, is pretty powerful

Druid has Natrual spell and wild shape, the strengths of a full caster combined with the ability to change into almost anything is pretty powerful.


The problem with actually determining where the non-Wizard/Archivists lie is that every other class has something rediculously powerful when compared, but nowhere near as easy to compare

[Gray Mage]

Wizard+Archivist<Artificer<Cleric+Druid<Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)<Artificer


You've listed Artificer twice.

I'd personally put the wizard as the most broken class, the wizard spell list is the most broken one.

[toapat]

You've listed Artificer twice.

I'd personally put the wizard as the most broken class, the wizard spell list is the most broken one.

I was pointing out the fact that there is a circle, i then explained that circle.

Wizard isnt the most broken, when Artificer gets to bypass the normal per day limit, and Erudite gets the entire spell list as well.

[eggs]

They all have access to one another's spells through shapeshifts, summoning, calling, crafting, domain shuffling, etc. Druid less so than the others, but people like sticking it in the same class level tier anyway.

The differences between them mostly boil down to personal preference/familiarity.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, when you get to the T1s, all of them have potentially unlimited optimization ceilings. At that point, whichever one is better really comes down to which player is more familiar with TO exploits.

[Reluctance]

Is anyone else worried this guy is just looking to play the "best class"?

First, optimization ceiling is different from optimization floor. Played poorly, casters can be underwhelming. In fact, the most intelligent use for a caster is often taking some of their power and spreading it amongst your allies by way of buffs.

Second, while I could point you at hilariously broken builds, I can also say pretty confidently that trying to bring one to an actual table will bring bans if not disinvites. Trying to play an arms race, either with another player or with the DM, is a fool's game.

[Roland St. Jude]

Is anyone else worried this guy is just looking to play the "best class"?

First, optimization ceiling is different from optimization floor. Played poorly, casters can be underwhelming. In fact, the most intelligent use for a caster is often taking some of their power and spreading it amongst your allies by way of buffs.

Second, while I could point you at hilariously broken builds, I can also say pretty confidently that trying to bring one to an actual table will bring bans if not disinvites. Trying to play an arms race, either with another player or with the DM, is a fool's game.While I agree in principle - in the proper case, I don't see anything in the OP that suggests he intends to play anything. He seems to be posing a thought experiment about another thought experiment.

[HunterOfJello]

I posit that in many cases, the best Tier 1 character class is the one which best fits the aptitude and playstyle of the player controlling the character. That single factor may outweight all of the normal differences between the T1 classes themselves.

~

I play with in a group that has a Wizard//Sorcerer gestalt character in it, but the player generally dislikes and completely neglects any magical or mundane item that he can't directly wear on his character or use to modify his spells. While he could gain lots of utility and survivability by using many of the different wondrous items in his inventory, he just neglects them.

This works out fine for him, but wouldn't work out as well for a player who was playing an Artificer. For this player a Wizard is a far better, and therefore superior class, than an Artificer.

~

When considering play a T1 class, I think you need to ask:
1. What is my playstyle?
2. What are the actual playstyles of these amazing spellcasting class?
3. Which is the best or closest match to me?

~

This isn't just about fun. My answer isn't, "Whichever one you enjoy playing!" My answer is, "Whichever one you have the greatest aptitude for".

[Jay R]

Is anyone else worried this guy is just looking to play the "best class"?

OH. In that case, monk is the best. Play a monk.

[Fable Wright]

I was pointing out the fact that there is a circle, i then explained that circle.

Wizard isnt the most broken, when Artificer gets to bypass the normal per day limit, and Erudite gets the entire spell list as well.

The actual highest theoretical power levels, as Flickerdart said, are rather high. The problem with defining where a class is on the scale is that you have to account for how it is played- there are gamebreaking combinations that can be used by one class that can't be used by another, and if you put powerful abilities, such as DMM, and give them to one class, but deny other classes their own unique game-breaking abilities, it gets somewhat unfair. As a logical extension of this cycle, when you get to the highest level underneath Pun-Pun, Wizards (Through Focused Abyssal Heritor Planar Spellcasting with Chaotic Spell recall and Unfettered Heroism) basically prepare 7 spells of each level per day, plus bonus spells, and then can spontaneously cast those spells without using up the spell slots. Using Rary's Arcane Conversion, they can buff themselves up to their eyeballs and then swap out their entire list for more useful spells throughout the day. Erudites can cast from any arcane or psionic list out of the box. Artificers are trickier because of homebrew items, but if you limit them to printed items only, they can cast almost any spell whenever they want and put out huge amounts of damage from Energy Admixture Orbs of X. Strait Cleric and Druid are nearer the bottom of the hypothetical power list, though Druid shoots back up if Planar Shepard and Fast Time planes are on the table, and Cleric goes back up there with Prestige Paladin+Battle Blessing+Prestige Ranger+Sword of the Arcane Order+Initiate of Mystra. Archivists are silly when they can scribe 4th level Paladin and Ranger spells in their Prayerbooks, but lag far behind the others. Any of these could theoretically become Pun-Pun, but I would rank it like this:

Cleric<Druid<Archivist<Wizard<StP Erudite<Artificer<Pimped Out Cleric of Mystra/The Ultimate Batman (I can't decide whether casting out of your own personal Persisted AMFs and 2 Wizard/Sorcerer Spells per round is better or worse than all the buffs on the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List plus spontaneously casting around 8 or 9 spells per level as Invocations as an Astral Projection from your Fast Time Demiplane where you can easily return from)<Planar Shepard<Pun-Pun (Which any of these can become).

However, in (What I assume to be) the spirit of the OP's post, here's how I would rank it on less gamebreaking scales:

Core+Eberron Campaign Setting:
Cleric<Wizard<Druid<Artificer

Core+Completes+ECS:
Druid/DMM Cleric<Wizard<StP Erudite<Artificer

[Invader]

I feel like the artificer isn't nearly as powerful as people make it out to be if you strictly following the crafting guidelines which I think get handwaved a lot of time in terms of the crafting costs.

[Flickerdart]

I feel like the artificer isn't nearly as powerful as people make it out to be if you strictly following the crafting guidelines which I think get handwaved a lot of time in terms of the crafting costs.
The Artificer's power doesn't come from custom items. It comes from being able to make really cheap items, as well as being able to craft almost anything they want by themselves. The XP crafting reserve and the ability to distill a magic item into XP for more crafting is icing on the cake.

[Invader]

The Artificer's power doesn't come from custom items. It comes from being able to make really cheap items, as well as being able to craft almost anything they want by themselves. The XP crafting reserve and the ability to distill a magic item into XP for more crafting is icing on the cake.

I meant more along the lines of crafting time. It seems like all to often an item will take 2 weeks to make (even after appropriate discounts) and DM's are happy to say ok it's now 2 weeks later, you can have your item.

I should also clarify I still think they're solidly a tier 1 just not that close to the top.

[Flickerdart]

I meant more along the lines of crafting time. It seems like all to often an item will take 2 weeks to make (even after appropriate discounts) and DM's are happy to say ok it's now 2 weeks later, you can have your item.

I should also clarify I still think they're solidly a tier 1 just not that close to the top.
A good Artificer knows what they'll need in advance and have a Dedicated Wright in a Bag of Holding crafting it for them, so that they're never without their favourite consumable. A bad Artificer is a lot like a bad Wizard.

[Invader]

A good Artificer knows what they'll need in advance and have a Dedicated Wright in a Bag of Holding crafting it for them, so that they're never without their favourite consumable. A bad Artificer is a lot like a bad Wizard.

Ok, the quaint farming town finds itself beset on all sides by unexplained bands of roving undead. You estimate the town guard/defenses can hold out for 1 more day before they're over run. Of all the tier 1 classes which one do you choose to help you?

It'd be the same with just about every situation, just about any tier 1 is better than an artificer unless you have days/weeks/months to craft the equipment that will be effective.

[Flickerdart]

Ok, the quaint farming town finds itself beset on all sides by unexplained bands of roving undead. You estimate the town guard/defenses can hold out for 1 more day before they're over run. Of all the tier 1 classes which one do you choose to help you?

It'd be the same with just about every situation, just about any tier 1 is better than an artificer unless you have days/weeks/months to craft the equipment that will be effective.
Artificer uses infusions to make a pile of weapons Undead Bane on the spot. Or sets his army of constructs on them, utterly mocking the fear and energy drain abilities undead are famous for. Or reduces them to ashes with wandomancy.

Like any T1 class, if you're only preparing 1 day in advance, you're doing it wrong. With so many resources available to them, a skilled T1 player always prepares for broad contingencies.

[brujon]

Psy Artificer comes as the winner. Access to all 3 lists, Divine, Arcane and Psionics, being able to completely ignore WBL and boost the party's power well above any sane level. Spell to Power Erudite comes as a close second, being able to cast from Psy/Arcane, right there tied with Archivist that gets Arcane/Divine. Then comes Wizard>Cleric>Druid, in that order. There's a reason some people say Psy Arty is Tier 0. Psy arty can fill any role, he can craft wand off of any list at CL 20, recharge them at close to no cost, etc... He's a better caster than the casters, a better crafter than them, and a better fighter than any of the ToB classes if he sets his mind on it. Plus, he "casts" the spells off of ANY list, including prestige class lists, so he can craft a wand off Haste off of the Trapsmith spell list, which has Haste as a lvl 1 spell, or a wand of Heal off of the Adept list, as a 5th level spell. There's more if you dig enough.

You have to remember that the best list is Arcane, it has the most support and some of the more broken spells, closely followed by psionics (access to really easy action economy breaking), then divine(best buffs, Planar Ally, ressurrection, Planar Binding, etc...). There are ways to achieve triple 9's casting with bloodline shenanigans and early entry into fast progressing PrC's, such as Beholder Mage, Apostle of Peace, Arcane/Divine theurge classes, and RAW reading of the Ardent power progression (Only you ML limits what psionics you can learn). But only the Psy Artificer can get there only as a base class, no rules abuse, no questions asked.

Note: Excluding feats/class feature's, Arcane is undisputedly the best spell list. The best Save or Sucks/Loses/Die, access to both Gate and Wish, several Spell Compendium spells that are outright outrageous, access to the other classes castings via summons/gated creatures, etc... Psionics has the least support, but pushes through because of stuff like Linked Power, that when used with a Psycristal, Share Power, Schism, Synchronicity and Bestow Power can be used to set up exponentially increasing Standard Actions and infinite "floating" PP. Divine has lots of support, and access to Divine Metamagic, which makes Persist viable (with Nightstick abuse, of course). But when push comes to shove, Arcane has the most love out of all the spell lists, including the most powerful PrC's, feats, etc... None of the others can match it's power when full access is given.

[Invader]

Artificer uses infusions to make a pile of weapons Undead Bane on the spot. Or sets his army of constructs on them, utterly mocking the fear and energy drain abilities undead are famous for. Or reduces them to ashes with wandomancy.

Like any T1 class, if you're only preparing 1 day in advance, you're doing it wrong. With so many resources available to them, a skilled T1 player always prepares for broad contingencies.

I guess my point is that I give more weight to being able to be prepared for just about anything on the fly in terms of actually playing and not just theory crafting, if that makes any sense lol.

[Flickerdart]

I guess my point is that I give more weight to being able to be prepared for just about anything on the fly in terms of actually playing and not just theory crafting, if that makes any sense lol.
A wizard who operates on a basis of "hey, we know that tomorrow we'll be fighting undead so I'll just scribe some anti-undead spells wait it takes how long to do that this is ridiculous" is not being played to his full power. The sort of wizard that really shows those undead what's what keeps a pile of anti-undead scrolls around that he's crafted years ago, has a planar bound angel in his closet, and knows where to teleport to to hire a friendly cleric in short order.

It's not just theory craft. It's the reason stuff like the Quintessence power is really good. At the end of the day or adventure, you're going to have surplus resources left, and can afford to squirrel away some stuff for a rainy day. Being prepared ahead of time for fighting undead isn't hard, and it's a situation that's going to come up often.

Even if they're not prepared, though, it's not a problem. The Artificer up there isn't using Undead specific tactics. The infusions? He can cast any one of them at will, like a Beguiler. The constructs? Minions are great for everything. Wands that make stuff go boom? Never enough dakka.

[Golden Ladybug]

While I'm certainly not an authority on what is the best, I would have to put the order like this (Assuming 20 levels in the base class; the order gets a bit muddled when you start factoring in some of the more ridiculous PrCs)

Cleric = Druid < Wizard <= Archivist < StP Erudite < Artificer

Cleric and Druid stand about equal, with the Druid having significantly stronger class features and a better unmodified spell list, but Cleric having access to some very powerful feat combinations and the ability to pick and choose a wide list of spells from their domains, makes this a tough one to call. I'd sling this as about equal.

Wizard stands above them by having a spell list that is simply better. Its pretty hard to equal the Wizard in terms of the raw power of its list.

Archivist, with access to all the tricks can pick and choose the best spells from all divine lists, and a fair number of the arcane lists as well. Their potential library of spells is greater than any of those before them, but they still need to jump through hoops to get to them. Their ceiling is arguably higher than Wizard 20, but its a close one to call.

Spell to Power Erudite pulls away from the pack for the same reason as the Archivist, but more so. They have access to not only the Psion/Wilder Power List, but also all Arcane lists, and their unique mechanic of learning powers means that the only thing (theoretically) between the StP Erudite and access to every Arcane Spell and Psionic Power ever printed is time.

The Artificer, however, blows the others out of the water. The measurement for power amongst the tier 1s is mostly about how versatile they are, which comes down to how many spells/powers they can potentially gain access to, and the ease of which they do so. The Artificer has access to every spell, power and magic item in the game, and has the character resources to acquire them built into their class.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

As DMofDarkness said, which class is strongest depends on what is considered unplayable cheese and what is considered acceptable at your table. Every Tier 1 has plenty of tricks including ways to stick their fingers in each others pies. Every Tier 1 has a virtually non existent optimization ceiling, so it's all about what manages to sneak under the "reasonable" optimization ceiling at your table. DMM Persist is off the table, but Killer Gnome is ok; advantage Wizard, Infinite PP is OP cheese, but Archivists finds domain spells of every published domain readily available? No custom items for Artificers and they can only craft items from the Wizard/Cleric List, but fast time Planar Shepard is Kosher?

@InvaderDerk

Here's the thing about crafting time and Artificers. Picture a wizard that you would play, now picture his spell book. Artificer has multiple consumables for every spell in it. Generally this is what he should enter play and every adventure.

The ability to craft amazing items on the fly for a given meta situation is potentially amazing, but an Artificer has the same ability as a wizard to be pretty prepared for a multitude of situations with backups on his contingencies and contingencies on his backups. He's like a Wizard, only more so. He has more consumables on hand than a Wizard has spells per day and draws from a deeper pool of spells, but rather than needing to rest a few hours if he taps himself out he needs a few weeks of down time.

Posing a scenario where an Artificer can't craft (even if only between adventures/levels/sessions) is similar to posing situations where other casters are forced into inordinate numbers of encounters per day or not allowed to rest at all. Well that's not entirely fair, those situations are usually very contrived and feature non casters somehow replenishing hp for every fight.

However if we're talking about a campaign in which there is reasonable downtime between events; the kind of campaign where a wizard can scribe new spells into their book and do spell research and characters can pursue personal goals unrelated to the meta plot an Artificer will have enough time to keep up with the Jones and often surpass them.

If you are running a meta plot that will keep the PC's constantly in action and they'll be leveling from 1 to 20 in a game year then ya, you either need to fudge the crafting rules or tell people that Artificers aren't appropriate to your fast paced action movie game.

[Wings of Peace]

Sha'ir would be the top tier one.

My full list: Sha'ir > Wizard > Spell to Power Erudite > Archivist > Cleric > Druid > Artificer > Erudite.

I should point out that I'm biased by the fact I've only rarely worked with both Artificer and the non-stp Erudite. Druid's Wildshape gives it a strong advantage over the Cleric in a lot of ways but I feel like Turn Undead hijinx and a slightly (imo) better spell list give the Cleric the upper hand.

[lsfreak]

I really feel like this is like asking whether uranium-triggered, plutonium-triggered, two-stage, or three-stage 25MT thermonuclear weapons are best. It's really only answerable in terms of what you know how to do and have access to, and if you're trying to ruin someone's day, it really doesn't matter which.

But if I had to pick, I'd probably say Erudite > Archivist > Wizard > Cleric > Druid. I don't really know artificers enough to make a judgment.

In everyday, PO-type settings, this probably changes drastically. Erudite > Wizard > Druid >= Cleric > Archivist.
Erudites are still ridiculous, but druids get significantly better due to the inherent power of wild shape + animal companion on a spell list that's on par with a cleric. Archivist isn't going to have an easy time picking up every arcane spell like they could in TO and they lack turning's useability/abuseability.

And I'll finish this by saying I rarely play divine casters beyond beaststick clerics, so that probably colors my assessment.

[toapat]

I really feel like this is like asking whether uranium-triggered, plutonium-triggered, two-stage, or three-stage 25MT thermonuclear weapons are best. It's really only answerable in terms of what you know how to do and have access to, and if you're trying to ruin someone's day, it really doesn't matter which.

But if I had to pick, I'd probably say Erudite > Archivist > Wizard > Cleric > Druid. I don't really know artificers enough to make a judgment.

In everyday, PO-type settings, this probably changes drastically. Erudite > Wizard > Druid >= Cleric > Archivist.
Erudites are still ridiculous, but druids get significantly better due to the inherent power of wild shape + animal companion on a spell list that's on par with a cleric. Archivist isn't going to have an easy time picking up every arcane spell like they could in TO and they lack turning's useability/abuseability.

And I'll finish this by saying I rarely play divine casters beyond beaststick clerics, so that probably colors my assessment.

Druid actually has the worst spell list of all the T1s, it is a more healing oriented version of the Cleric list, and also lacks miracle and gate. Wildshape makes up for this, but not before epic levels when you can choose to become outsiders or a Great Wyrm dragon

on the other hand, nearly every broken 9th level spell is available to clerics (Shapechange through Animal Domain, its unrestricted too. Miracle functions identically to Wish for the good cleric who knows that being unlinked to any of the alignments or gods is a good thing), who can do things like persist any spell upto 9th level.

Wizards do have the best spell list, but this is offset by the even more broken spell list of the Archivist, who gets all that, and all the cleric goodies, and all the domain goodies, and basically everything on those lists. His is rather limited though because of just the lack of spell slots.

basically, it comes down to this:

Druid<Wizard+Cleric<Archivist (If you can figure out how to get Turn Undead, otherwise lump him with Wiz and Cler)<Artificer<Erudite<Psionic Artificer*

*Psionic Artificer is Tier 0. Tier -1 if they are allowed the full power of the DMG item creation rules.

[gkathellar]

Throwing in my hat for the, "this is kind of a silly question," crowd. Consider: just about any T1 caster can, theoretically, get infinite actions and infinite spells/power points/whatever per day. "Who is most powerful" really comes down to "who optimized the most."

Now, in totally paradoxical fashion, I'll throw out there that StP Erudite is being overestimated just a teensy bit. Barring the assistance of an epic manifester, it never gets 9th levels spells before epic. Now, I'm sure there's some psycrystal or metaconcert trick out there that lets you cheat that, but between that and lack of support for psionics, you can make the argument that it's by no means outright superior to a wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While I'm not entirely certain about the other 5, I'm pretty sure StP erudite should be at the top. The ability to learn nearly every spell and power in the game and produce it on the fly with no need for contingency plans is hard to match.

Artificer is a very close (we're talking centimeters) second.

While the artificer can break WBL wide open, it's still a limiting factor. A level 20 artificer is getting a crap-ton more power out of his 760,000 gp than anyone else, but that is still a limit. The other problem is that every artificer is just one disjunction away from being a sub-standard rogue in the tactical sense. Infusions take too long to cast to use in combat unless you burn action points like a mad-man.

An erudite, on the other hand pays xp to learn how to do everything on the fly. A thought bottle alone gives him nearly limitless resources for increasing his repetoire. At 19500xp he could use a thought bottle 39 times to produce more xp than he has gp, an obscene amount of xp, and then turn it into over 38,000 levels of psionic or spell ability. That's enough xp for every spell in the SpC and PHB in addition to every psionic power ever printed several times over, all for a single magic item. EDIT: Flubbed the math, but the point holds.

Even without the thought bottle, getting all the spells and powers is trivially easy, given the pitifully cheap 20xp per spell/power level cost.

In summary:

An erudite can have every "win button" available on the fly, and can't have any of them taken away by anything less than level drain; IN PRACTICE, not just in theory.

An artificer can -potentially- have a "win button" for almost any situation except an enemy hitting him with disjunction, and in that case will take years to recover completely.

This, IMO, puts erudite ahead of artificer, if only slightly.

[killianh]

I'm going to have to say that when it comes to the tier 1s you end up where you can't judge them on the maximum possible power because it's basically unlimited.

That said the best way to judge would probably be by judging the optimization floor. So probably archivist<wizard<psion<StP erudite<cleric<artificer<druid

I'm basing that on the simplicity/complexity of building those types of characters, how easy it is to upgrade the class's power (i.e. taking only two feats to jump leaps and bounds in power (DMM persist (which is why cleric is so high))) and what you get out of them.

Archivist if played at a very base power level is a cleric that needs to work harder for spells

A wizard with no forethought or a bad list or one that doesn't take the time IC to gain more spells outside of what's gained through levels can be really lackluster

psion is kind of similar, but I find the psionics casting system to be a bit more forgiving of bad choices and a tad more powerful by removing the restriction of what you have prepared

StP is like psion, but with access to arcane magic (and divine through a Dragon mag feat IIRC)

Cleric gets spells, domains, actual class features, d8s and medium BAB. Much higher floor (which is what I'm basing this on; my choices would be very different if I tried to go off of highest potential power)

Artificers, even if badly played, at the very least save the party gold. Other classes can end up not pulling their weight if played badly while the artificer can always help out with item discounts.

Druid is a hippy that can turn into whatever (even without the stupidly powerful choices) and then rain fire from the skies, back up heal, and boost people. Having the broken of polymorph as a class feature definitely raises the bar for this guy.

Again I will say that I'm not judging based on what I think is the highest levels of power mainly because I find it pointless to try and compare infinite to infinite. Thus I went off of how the ground floors of the classes compare IMHO

[shadow_archmagi]

Out of curiosity, why are psionic artificers being trumpeted as vastly superior? I was under the impression that while access to more lists is good, the Psi list was generally inferior to the wiz list anyway.

[Lord_Gareth]

Out of curiosity, why are psionic artificers being trumpeted as vastly superior? I was under the impression that while access to more lists is good, the Psi list was generally inferior to the wiz list anyway.

In a word?

Quintessence.

[Flickerdart]

Out of curiosity, why are psionic artificers being trumpeted as vastly superior? I was under the impression that while access to more lists is good, the Psi list was generally inferior to the wiz list anyway.
Psionic Artificers, I believe, can make psionic items in addition to, rather than instead of, magic items.

[shadow_archmagi]

In a word?

Quintessence.

Could you use more words?


Psionic Artificers, I believe, can make psionic items in addition to, rather than instead of, magic items.

Well, yeah, but Psi+Arcane+Divine isn't *that* much more versatile than just Arcane+Divine, right?

[Dusk Eclipse]

You forget that the most important economy in the game is Action economy and Psions have the easiest and IMO best tools to make it cry (barring Fast Time planes shenanigans which to the best of my knowledge is only easilly got by Planar Shepherd). For one no -cheesey way they have access to Time Stop at level 11 (Temporal acceleration) and Psi-Artificers get it at level 9