[3.P] Predator vs. Team

[Darius Kane]

I'm thinking about running a PvP Predator style game. One PC, the "Predator", would be up against a group of other PCs, normal adventurers.
How would you rule it so that the "Predator" had a fair chance, but wasn't way more powerful than the group? Obviously he needs to be stronger than an individual PC from the group, but still not strong enough to too easily take on the whole group. Like with the real Predator from the films, his primary strategy would of course be some sort of stealth (mundane or magical) and hit-&-run tactics.
My idea is to have the "Predator" PC be the same level as the PCs in the group, but additionally give him a decent template or two to beef him up. Maybe allow him to make a gestalt character.

[fishbrains]

If you want to be as accurate as possible, the Predators are obviously Rangers. Since you're open to Gestalt for a decent combo that's not too overwhelming you can make it a Ranger//Rogue. Give it a little extra cash than normal and spend it all on utility items and a bane weapon and a decent chain shirt.

[Invader]

I'm thinking about running a PvP Predator style game. One PC, the "Predator", would be up against a group of other PCs, normal adventurers.
How would you rule it so that the "Predator" had a fair chance, but wasn't way more powerful than the group? Obviously he needs to be stronger than an individual PC from the group, but still not strong enough to too easily take on the whole group. Like with the real Predator from the films, his primary strategy would of course be some sort of stealth (mundane or magical) and hit-&-run tactics.
My idea is to have the "Predator" PC be the same level as the PCs in the group, but additionally give him a decent template or two to beef him up. Maybe allow him to make a gestalt character.

I'm thinking a ranged combat ranger sans an animal companion. Maybe a wildshape ranger for a little utility.

[Darius Kane]

Sorry. I might have not been clear enough. I'm not asking for suggestions on classes or builds, because this game is still just an idea. I'm asking what rules for creation, what bans, what limitations should I make so that it will be a (mostly) fair competition.

[Invader]

The regular CR rules? It really depends on how optimized the party is, hi/low magic and WBL, etc. If the CR is within 1-2 of a standard party or 3-4 of a highly optimized party, you should be ok either way.

[Golden Ladybug]

You should let the predator pick the place this confrontation goes down. Maybe give them a day in this location before the party arrives.

Depending on the deviousness level of the Predator, that should be enough to make it an even fight :smallamused:

[brujon]

Hm, if you wish to recreate the energy weapons, homing disks of death, cloaking device, etc, without having to resort to magic items (which the party would then acquire), your best bet is gestalting full-caster on one side, and grabbing some kind of sneak attack on the other side. I don't think Ranger is adequately powerful, but the Favored Enemy/Tracking bits fit to a T.

Psionics has the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) PrC, which has only tracking as a Pre-req, and progresses manifesting, with full bab to boot. With a gestalting base, it's easy to get a Full Bab/Full Manifesting build out of this. While i think Sneak Attack is appropriate enough, Predators are always on the move while hunting, thusly i don't think some dipping into Scout for access to all the tracking/survival skills plus access to skirmish (Sneak attack that triggers with movement instead of flanking/dex denial), is out of hand. The Predator Claws can be fluffed as the Claws of the Beast power, which you can nab out of the Psychic Warrior list (Expanded Knowledge), Energy Blast/Bolt/Missile can emulate the shoulder mounted cannon, plus, the ray can deliver Skirmish/Sneak attack damage, so that's a bonus.

Mental Leap makes it so that you gain a +10 to jump checks if you expend your psionic focus. Time to make those famous 12ft high predator jumps! Up The Walls give additional mobility while you are psionically focused, so you can run up a wall and into a tree branch while invisible, to quickly flee or prepare an ambush. Cloud Mind (Mass) makes for a GREAT way of making an escape. It effectively gives you invisibility, but not only that, it's completely immunization against all forms of detection. Ends when you take any hostile action, though. Chameleon + Concealing Amorpha (Greater) give you some concealment and huge boosts to your hide checks. The disk of death, though... You could probably do so with a homebrewed psionic, but you could also make do with Telekinetic Thrust. You'll still have to make an Attack Roll, though. BUT! You can hurl several disks in this manner. As they have an attack roll, sneak attack/skirmish damage does apply. The spear gun though, you'd have to use an item, i'm afraid. A crossbow would do the trick nicely, or a longbow.

[Darius Kane]

The regular CR rules?
By CR guidelines Predator would be 4 levels above the group. A little too much.
Or do you mean CR from templates? Hm. Advanced + Half-dragon make +3 CR. Or maybe Advanced + Half-fiend?


It really depends on how optimized the party is, hi/low magic and WBL, etc. If the CR is within 1-2 of a standard party or 3-4 of a highly optimized party, you should be ok either way.
Well, the better optimizer(s) should win. That kinda will be the point of this game. I just have to make it fair.

@ brujon
No, I don't wish that.

[brujon]

By CR guidelines Predator would be 4 levels above the group. A little too much.
Or do you mean CR from templates? Hm. Advanced + Half-dragon make +3 CR. Or maybe Advanced + Half-fiend?


Well, the better optimizer(s) should win. That kinda will be the point of this game. I just have to make it fair.

@ brujon
No, I don't wish that.

I don't get it. No psionics, you mean? Psionics is a great way of getting analogues of the tricks predator have in the films/comics, and if you play it straight, limiting what powers they use to fit their theme, it's not overly powerful. If you want him to be a challenge to the whole party, then you need something to give him the bang for his buck, and you don't want to invest too much on magic items because when the party (eventually) defeats him, they'll have access to them, and that can cause problems in-game. It's easy to hide psionics, as well, so they don't actually know he's using psionics, as it doesn't have somatic or verbal components, and as such are automatically stilled and silenced. Some do have visual manifestations, but IIRC you can try and hide those.

If you're planning on giving him magic items, then i suggest a contingent Disjunction + a Delayed Blast Fireball centered on him when he dies, so you recreate that death nuke, and destroy most or all of his magic items. Ranger is a pretty weak base to start out from.

[Darius Kane]

Clearly you didn't read my second post and also didn't understand the OP. I'm not creating an enemy or NPC. It will be a PvP game, which was stated in the OP.

[ShadowFireLance]

I must suggest this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248868
Because it...well...Just read it.

[brujon]

Clearly you didn't read my second post and also didn't understand the OP.

Clearly i haven't, fair enough. It's still a good base you can think on.

I don't get exactly what you're asking, though, you say "rules for creation, ban and limitations" to keep it fair, so i'm guessing you want to homebrew a monster race for the predator?

If so, i have some suggestions.

Predator

Large Outsider (Usually Lawful Evil)

+6 Strength +4 Dex +4 Con +2 Int -4 Charisma - Predators are physically formidable, being both strong, nimble and resilient. They're also very intelligent, but the nature of their very hierarchical and caste based society leaves little room for social skills.

Knowledge(The Planes) results:

DC 20 - Predators are insect-like humanoids that hail from a distant home plane which is a brimming forest world. Predators are taught to hunt from a very early age, as society ranks them based solely on their hunting prowess. The harder the prey, the higher the praise.

DC 25 - They usually work alone, because they don't want to share credit with anyone else, and are extremely xenophobic, keeping their culture and technology to themselves, even going to extreme pains to conceal them - every predator that's on a hunting trip is required to not ever let anyone get a hold of their items, they are required to, if necessary, trigger an explosive blast to annihilate any trace of their presence to prevent capture.

DC 30 - They are also a very tribal based society, keeping trophies from enemies they kill, and are honor-bound to keep the fight fair. A Predator that follows the Code will match fire with fire, fighting unarmed opponents unarmed, and avoiding killing weaklings and innocents, as they feel that no honor can come from such a kill. They do use strategy and technique, however, and are not above using cunning and subterfuge to do their hunting.

DC 40 - Every predator receives a series of enhancements to their Exoskeleton when they're initiated as hunters. These include mysteriously crystal powered shoulder mounted energy weapons, spear guns, retractable claws, and a concealment device that lets them blend in with their environment, becoming almost invisible, as well as a helmet that enhances their vision and let's them see prey at long distances.

Note: The hard DC's are supposed to represent the lengths through which each predator goes to conceal their culture. It's notoriously hard to get any sort of information on them.

Special Qualities:

Darkvision 120ft (EX) - Predators enhance their natural vision with their technology, and as such can see prey even in complete darkness from a long distance.

Heat Sense (EX) - Another vision enhancement that Predators receive when they're initiated as hunters. They can see all hot blooded living beings up to 120ft, piercing any form of invisibility and concealment, except those granted by terrain. Special: A creature can hide it's body heat to nullify this ability. What falls into that category is the realm of the DM, but an example is covering one's whole body with mud.

Camouflage (SU) - The predator can use it's cloaking device to blend in with his surroundings. Whenever he activates it, he gains the effect of Greater Invisibility, with the following exceptions: Attacking doesn't break the invisibility, but movement allows a DC 40 Spot Check, as the invisibility is not perfect when moving and the surroundings around the predator blur and a sharp eye can get a glimpse of it's whereabouts. Water makes the cloaking device not function properly, reducing the bonus from invisibility to Total Concealment (50%) for as long a he's covered in water, and for 2d4 rounds afterwards. This ability can be used At Will.

Racial Traits (EX): Predators are notorously good athletes, and get a +10 racial bonus to Jump, Swim and Climb checks.

Large Size (EX): Predators are Large creatures, and as thus receive a -1 penalty to AC and Attack Bonus when fighting Medium or smaller creatures, as well as a -4 penalty to Hide checks

Exoskeleton (EX): A predator has a natural exoskeleton that's enhanced when they undergo the iniation rite to become a hunter. They have a +8 bonus to Natural Armor.

Retractable Claws(EX): A predator receives this enhancement to his Exoskeleton when he undergoes the initiation rite. The claws deal damage as a Large +1 Punching Dagger (1d6 damage 20/x3, Piercing damage), and he has one in each hand. They can be enchanted if he spends the money, but are a part of him so they can't be removed and sold. Special: Whenever a predator deals a Coup de Grace to a victim using them, or deal a killing blow with them to an enemy, he can, as a free action, use the dagger to rip out the victim's skull and spine (if they have tem), to keep them as a trophy.

Special Attacks:

Shoulder Cannon (SU) - Once every 1d4 rounds, a predator can fire a homing beam of pure energy into a target of it's choosing. The beam deals 5d6 Force damage and requires no attack roll.

Homing Disks (EX) - A predator has a set of 10 blade edged rings that he can throw at an enemy. They work as Large Chakram (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/chakram-common) with the Keen and Returning properties.

Spear Gun (EX) - No idea what to put here.

LA +4
RHD +4

This is my take on the Predator...

[Darius Kane]

I must suggest this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248868
Because it...well...Just read it.
Not really what I'm asking for.

@ brujon
...
No, I'm not homebrewing a Predator race. A player will be the Predator and he will make a PC himself. I am asking for ideas on rules for creation so that it will be fair. I'm not LITERALLY making a Predator. It just a "Predator style" game where one player hunts the other players. Now do you finally understand?

[Jeff the Green]

Well, since the predator has to be pretty self-sufficient, I'd say making them gestalt is a good start. UA at least thinks that a gestalt character is essentially +1 CR, so you could then give a free +3 LA/CR in templates. Maybe a bit less, but more wealth and time to prepare. Another possibility, probably in conjunction with the above, is giving the predator a free Track/Urban Tracking feat and bonus skill points.

It would also be wise to make this a lower-level game, perhaps even E6, and/or banning Tiers 1 and 2. Too many utility spells could throw monkey wrenches into the works, including teleportation, summoning, and calling. Likewise, depending on whether there are other NPCs around, you'd have to be very careful about things like enchantment. (Though it could be fun to play a beguiler or telepath predator in a city.)

Ooh, now I really want to play as the predator! Shadowpouncer//Slayer, maybe, or Beguiler//Psion.

[Darius Kane]

Well, since the predator has to be pretty self-sufficient, I'd say making them gestalt is a good start. UA at least thinks that a gestalt character is essentially +1 CR, so you could then give a free +3 LA/CR in templates. Maybe a bit less, but more wealth and time to prepare. Another possibility, probably in conjunction with the above, is giving the predator a free Track/Urban Tracking feat and bonus skill points.
So you're saying that giving the "Predator" PC 4 more levels than the other PCs is fair?

[Jeff the Green]

So you're saying that giving the "Predator" PC 4 more levels than the other PCs is fair?

No, I'm saying give them gestalt and +3 LA/CR in race or templates. With very few exceptions, there aren't any templates that are worth class levels, and especially if the Predator is a caster making them three or four levels higher could easily result in a curb stomp.

With the same HD but a higher ECL/CR, the Predator would probably have slightly better (and more uniformly high) saves and slightly higher HP and might be able to hit a bit harder. He'd still be vulnerable, though, and would have to be smart to pick off the party.

[Darius Kane]

With the same HD but a higher ECL/CR, the Predator would probably have slightly better (and more uniformly high) saves and slightly higher HP and might be able to hit a bit harder. He'd still be vulnerable, though, and would have to be smart to pick off the party.
That's the idea.