Useless Armor and Weapons

[willpell]

I like the bare bones of the nonmagical D&D rules pretty well as they are, with a few exceptions. I really like the amount of thought that went into making the weapon selection fairly diverse, even though the results aren't perfect; I love to notice little details about the system, like when I saw that a battleaxe costs a little less and weighs a little more than a warhammer (because, according to Incarnates or Spiritual Weapon, Chaos is a battleaxe while Good is a warhammer, so it's like Good made its weapon less of a burden for people to carry while Chaos would rather see weaklings suffer under the weight), or the time I discovered a Heavy Mace is not actually strictly worse than a Morningstar as the table makes them look (because the Mace is made of solid metal and thus is harder to Sunder). Fiddly aspects of the system which are too easily forgotten, often due to the rules' very poor organization not putting them at your fingertips, are a delight to me, because they bring a semblance of realism to the game which I'm always in favor of.

Nonetheless, there are limits to how much I'm willing to make a character suck for the sake of vivid versimilitude. And so I find myself forced to protest at the utter uselessness of nearly half of the mere 12 types of armor that your character has to choose among. If a character spends three feats getting Heavy Armor Proficiency onto a character who starts out as a psion or something (not able to wear armor, but having no reason not to want armor if he can acquire the ability to wear it), he deserves better than to be confronted with the realization that he really has no choices to make. If he can afford Masterwork Full Plate, he'll always take that; if he has less gold than that he'll take Masterwork Half-Plate; if he has still less gold he'll take Masterwork Banded Mail. Splint Mail functionally doesn't exist, because its only advantage over banded is being cheaper, and it's not enough cheaper to make the difference in any game where WBL is being remotely observed.

Even more insulting (because far more people can wear medium armor than heavy) is the comparison between Chainmail and a Breastplate. Again, the armor the costs exactly 50 gp less is strictly worse in so many other ways (apart from coming with a "free" pair of 2-gp gauntlets which you probably didn't care about and would rather have saved 4 gp) that there's virtually no sane reason for anyone to ever make chainmail armor. Which sucks because it looks cool, and you should have a reason for wearing it. Maybe if it had lower ASF because the rings could focus magical energy, or if the armor check penalty were higher but the max DEX was lower, you'd have a choice to make; instead it's just a wasted line on the table. Which really hurts because Scale Mail is likewise only for 1st-level characters who can't afford a Chain Shirt, and Hide armor is only for Druids who can't wear metal. So really, there's only one kind of Medium armor.

And finally there's the Padded Armor, along with Leather and Studded Leather, in the "armor for people who can't afford armor" category. Masterwork Leather armor doesn't exist (except for Druids who can't have the metal studs, or for a Githzerai or something who can manage to start the game with a +6 DEXMOD to AC), because it's strictly worse than Masterwork Studded Leather, given that both have the same ACP. And Padded Armor might occasionally see use by arcane spellcasters who can stand a 5% spell failure chance but not the 10% from armor, if they're really determined to have something they can attach enhancements to, but for all intents and purposes it's pretty much never going to show up.

So I'd really like to come up with a new table of armor stats, something very similar to what we have now, but with every option being viable in more than a tiny percentage of builds. Hide armor should never have been on the table in the first place; instead there should have been a sidebar in the Druid section saying "druids must wear a hide version of normal armors which costs X times as much gold and has Y lower armor bonus" or the like. Chainmail and scale mail need to have potential advantages, and ideally so should splint mail; I'm less confident about the ability to change the light armors meaningfully but I wouldn't mind trying.

[God Imperror]

Maybe you will have better luck at the homebrew forums if you want to discuss possible homebrew rules.

If you want to discuss... well I guess you can do it here too. :smallsmile:

[Yora]

There's a homebrew thread for basically that. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254642

[Ashtagon]

Dude, if you want to play a psion with heavy armour, take a dip in a full combat class. Cleric or fighter or paladin from core, although later splatbooks have more interesting options. You have to be nuts to spend three feats buying up armour proficiency.

What bothers me more about the armour table is that a) some of the items never actually existed in history, and b) there's no indication of which historical periods specific armours listed actually saw use, leading to a weird melange of anachronism.

[GnomeGninjas]

Leather armor and masterwork studded leather are for people who aren't proficient with armor and don't cast arcane spells. Its not just for if you can't afford a chain shirt.

[Jeff the Green]

Personally, I'd rather have generic weapons and armor that can then be refluffed at will. Why, exactly, can I have a reach martial weapon that's really good for tripping, but not a non reach one? Or a light 1d6/x3 bludgeoning weapon? Or a two handed 2d6 piercing weapon? It gets even sillier when you add in the dump of polearms DrC introduced. Don't tell me it's because of verisimilitude, because if we were going for that, full plate should make it nearly impossible to do damage with a dagger but easy with a mace or bec-de-corbin.

[Marlowe]

Splint mail functionally didn't exist in reality. And I'd take Banded Mail over Half-Plate any day.

The uselessness of Scale bothers me a little. It's essentially the armour you give to the NPCs that aren't genre-savvy, and for first level PCs that couldn't afford a mail shirt. Everyone who wants to maintain a pulse swaps out Scale for a Chain shirt soon as they can.

The inferiority of Chain compared to the Breastplate is a little annoying. In reality this is a matter of comparing armours from two different technological periods. Chain is a dark-age/early medieval style of armour that's designed mainly to give you all over protection against light missile attacks, while Breastplate is designed to protect the vitals against really nasty attacks, like pistol shots from close range.

None of this is really a problem for me, because Adventurers are not Soldiers. They face more varied situations than "marching, marching, "foraging", fighting in a gruesome battle. Repeat until peace." The armours are not very well balanced, but the game itself is not designed so that's much of an issue.

If DnD was about military combat and historical realism, as an old-school tabletop wargamer, I'd complain. But it isn't. The different armours are just names for game devices.

You're an individual. You don't wear a uniform. You choose the armour available that's best for you.

[Cirrylius]

Don't tell me it's because of verisimilitude, because if we were going for that, full plate should make it nearly impossible to do damage with a dagger but easy with a mace or bec-de-corbin.
Heh. I was always torn on those armor-vs-P/S/B rules in 2nd ed.


Chain is a dark-age/early medieval style of armour that's designed mainly to give you all over protection against light missile attacks
Wait, really? I was under the impression that as it pertained to early european projectiles (i.e. arrows) that chain mail could be thought of as a collection of loosely collected holes.

[Saidoro]

I love to notice little details about the system, like when I saw that a battleaxe costs a little less and weighs a little more than a warhammer (because, according to Incarnates or Spiritual Weapon, Chaos is a battleaxe while Good is a warhammer, so it's like Good made its weapon less of a burden for people to carry while Chaos would rather see weaklings suffer under the weight)
What. Warhammers are lighter and cheaper because they contain less metal.
Either way, you're right about the unfortunate homogeneity of armor. I recommend taking a look at this (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Equipment) if you want more diverse options for protection.


You're an individual. You don't wear a uniform. You choose the armour available that's best for you.
This has absolutely nothing to do with what he was talking about. He was complaining that there are only three armors that are ever worth it(4 before mithral comes online.)

[Spiryt]

Chain is a dark-age/early medieval style of armour that's designed mainly to give you all over protection against light missile attacks, while Breastplate is designed to protect the vitals against really nasty attacks, like pistol shots from close range.


Since day of it's inventing, mail had many functions, from a bit of 'support' here and there to full body heavy armor.

It was used to protect against all battlefield threats around, from spears to axes.



Wait, really? I was under the impression that as it pertained to early european projectiles (i.e. arrows) that chain mail could be thought of as a collection of loosely collected holes.

If it was so, noone would spend whole lot of money for most complete mail suits possible. And people were, for hundreds of years, from Roman legions to Sindh warriors.

[Sidmen]

Wait, really? I was under the impression that as it pertained to early european projectiles (i.e. arrows) that chain mail could be thought of as a collection of loosely collected holes.
I've done research into this (as-in, watched blacksmiths recreate the armor on youtube and read historical arms books) and it appears that mail armor was much better than the usual conception in RPG circles. While it is made with thousands of tiny holes in it, it is important to emphasize the tiny part in that description.

Arrowheads were almost always wider and larger than the holes, and to further complicate penetration the rings were almost always angled to conform the wearer's body. Which effectively means that an arrow will never actually hit one of the ring holes head-on and bounce off instead. In the rare occasion that a hole is hit perfectly head-on, it won't be able to penetrate too deep because the head's point will necessarily be rather wide due to the poor quality of metal used in making arrows.

It is important to remember that chainmail was used for nearly 2,000 years by every powerful civilization, spanning the Celts, Romans, Byzantines, Fatimids, etc. It worked, and was trusted by millions of soldiers from as early as 300BC to the 1500's - if it didn't work it would've been replaced by plate (which was available the entire time chain was in use).

[Yora]

And under the chainmail you would have the padding, which depending on the make can be very effective in stopping arrows as well.

Chain is a dark-age/early medieval style of armour that's designed mainly to give you all over protection against light missile attacks
More like 4th century BC to 18th century AD.

[Venger]

Dude, if you want to play a psion with heavy armour.

psions don't have ASF to worry about, so you can actually wear whatever kind of armor you want as long as you don't mind eating the ACP. but then again, there are ways to mitigate that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Leather armor and masterwork studded leather are for people who aren't proficient with armor and don't cast arcane spells, until they can afford a mithral breastplate. Its not just for if you can't afford a chain shirt.

FIFY :smallbiggrin:

[Saidoro]

FIFY :smallbiggrin:
Huh. All these years I assumed that mithril modifiers included masterwork modifiers. Then I reread it while wondering how exactly you thought that worked and discovered that it never actually said that anywhere, only the prices are subsumed. I learned something (trivial) new today, huzzah.

[TuggyNE]

Huh. All these years I assumed that mithril modifiers included masterwork modifiers. Then I reread it while wondering how exactly you thought that worked and discovered that it never actually said that anywhere, only the prices are subsumed. I learned something (trivial) new today, huzzah.

That is incorrect, as seen from the example of elven chain, as well as this quote from the description of mithral:
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Huh. All these years I assumed that mithril modifiers included masterwork modifiers. Then I reread it while wondering how exactly you thought that worked and discovered that it never actually said that anywhere, only the prices are subsumed. I learned something (trivial) new today, huzzah.

Sorry, that's not what I meant.

A mithral breastplate is basically equivalent to a +2 studded leather, except that enhancing it is cheaper and it has a -1acp.

If 2 extra ac for a flat 4000 and a -1 to str and dex based checks isn't worth it, I don't know what is.

[Saidoro]

That's the same quote I just read, actually. It says the masterwork price is subsumed in the mithril price but never actually mentions the masterwork bonus. Still, the RAI is rather obviously that the bonus is subsumed too with the elven chain further supporting it and I don't intend to change the way I play because of that minor omission. That's why I said it was trivial, I just think finding those little bugs is kind of neat.

EDIT: @Kelb Ah, the reason studded leather and leather were originally mentioned was in the context of someone with no armor proficiencies. Leather has ACP 0 as does masterwork leather and mithril Chain Shirt, meaning they can be worn by someone with no proficiency with absolutely no penalties.

[Malak'ai]

That's the same quote I just read, actually. It says the masterwork price is subsumed in the mithril price but never actually mentions the masterwork bonus. Still, the RAI is rather obviously that the bonus is subsumed too with the elven chain further supporting it and I don't intend to change the way I play because of that minor omission. That's why I said it was trivial, I just think finding those little bugs is kind of neat.

EDIT: @Kelb Ah, the reason studded leather and leather were originally mentioned was in the context of someone with no armor proficiencies. Leather has ACP 0 as does masterwork leather and mithril Chain ****, meaning they can be worn by someone with no proficiency with absolutely no penalties.

Apart from the normal -2 to EVERYTHING you do for not having the proficiency :smallwink:.

Sorry. Total misread on my part. I'll be going into the corner now....

[MesiDoomstalker]

Apart from the normal -2 to EVERYTHING you do for not having the proficiency :smallwink:.

Source? I've scoured the rules, I don't remember seeing this anywhere.

[Belril Duskwalk]

Source? I've scoured the rules, I don't remember seeing this anywhere.

Assuming a suit of armor with an Armor Check Penalty of Zero, according to the Light Armor Proficiency Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight) you never will. Lack of proficiency in armor applies the Armor check to any skill check involving movement and to attack rolls. If the Armor check penalty is zero the non-proficiency penalty clearly lacks teeth.

[grarrrg]

So I'd really like to come up with a new table of armor stats, something very similar to what we have now, but with every option being viable in more than a tiny percentage of builds. Hide armor should never have been on the table in the first place; instead there should have been a sidebar in the Druid section saying "druids must wear a hide version of normal armors which costs X times as much gold and has Y lower armor bonus" or the like. Chainmail and scale mail need to have potential advantages, and ideally so should splint mail; I'm less confident about the ability to change the light armors meaningfully but I wouldn't mind trying.

*Revised, please see later in thread (early page 2)

I/we are more concerned about usability over fluff, so some things I will leave blank for now: Names are fluff, Cost/Weight goes up as the base Armor bonus improves.
Total Armor Bonus+Max Dex equals 8
Armor Check is equal to Armor Bonus, Spell Failure is Armor Bonus times 5.
All Light armors are Non-Metal, all heavier armors are metal.
There can be "special" variations, like the Druid-variant mentioned, "counts as Non-Metal, Reduced AC (or something), and increased Cost.
Maybe also a "Mage-Armor" variant with decreased AC for decreased Spell Failure, and more Pricey.
[SPOILER]{table=head]Name|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex|Armor Check|Spell Failure|Speed|Weight
Light|||||||
Padded||0|8|0|0|norm|lbs.
Leather||1|7|1|5%|norm|lbs.
Studded Leather||2|6|2|10%|norm|lbs.
Medium|||||||
Chain Shirt||3|5|3|15%|slow|lbs.
Chain Mail||4|4|4|20%|slow|lbs.
Breastplate||5|3|5|25%|slow|lbs.
Heavy|||||||
Banded Mail||6|2|6|30%|slow|lbs.
Half-Plate||7|1|7|35%|slow|lbs.
Full Plate||8|0|8|40%|slow|lbs.
[/table]

[Kane0]

Here's what I made for armor in 3.U:

{table=head]Armor Type|AC|Max Dex|ACP|Spell Failure|Example
Flexible Light | 2 | 6 | 0 | 5% | Padded, Leather
Bulky Light | 3 | 5 | -1 | 10% | Studded Leather, Chain Shirt
Flexible Medium | 5 | 4 | -2 | 15% | Hide, Scale Mail
Bulky Medium | 6 | 3 | -3 | 20% | Chain Mail, Breastplate
Flexible Heavy | 8 | 2 | -4 | 25% | Splint Mail, Banded Mail
Bulky Heavy | 9 | 1 | -5 | 30% | Half Plate, Full Plate
[/table]

It's simplistic and we haven't figured out weight and cost yet, but it works for now.

[Ashtagon]

psions don't have ASF to worry about, so you can actually wear whatever kind of armor you want as long as you don't mind eating the ACP. but then again, there are ways to mitigate that.

I did actually know that. My point was the only thing stopping them is the lack of three armour proficiency feats, which is easier-solved by dipping in a class that has armour proficiency than by spending almost half of your total feat allocation ever.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I did actually know that. My point was the only thing stopping them is the lack of three armour proficiency feats, which is easier-solved by dipping in a class that has armour proficiency than by spending almost half of your total feat allocation ever.

Unless your DM has ruled otherwise, you don't actually have to be proficient with an armor to wear it.

A psion in mountain plate is almost completely unnaffected by his armor unless he has to make a physical skill check or an attack roll. As a psion, it's trivially simple to avoid both of these things.

[Venger]

A psion in mountain plate is almost completely unnaffected by his armor unless he has to make a physical skill check or an attack roll. As a psion, it's trivially simple to avoid both of these things.

that was pretty much my entire point, neither of these things happen very often.

[Psyren]

Unless your DM has ruled otherwise, you don't actually have to be proficient with an armor to wear it.

A psion in mountain plate is almost completely unnaffected by his armor unless he has to make a physical skill check or an attack roll. As a psion, it's trivially simple to avoid both of these things.

Actually, nonproficiency penalties also apply to initiative, so that can still be a bad idea.

[BCOVertigo]

I did actually know that. My point was the only thing stopping them is the lack of three armour proficiency feats, which is easier-solved by dipping in a class that has armour proficiency than by spending almost half of your total feat allocation ever.

You can wear armor you lack the proficiency feat for, you will just be especially clumsy while doing so (ACP is subtracted from a much wider variety of things, like attack rolls). Ignoring the feats entirely on a character who will not be affected by these penalties (psions) is common.

Edit: Holy crap, entire ninja clan'd.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, nonproficiency penalties also apply to initiative, so that can still be a bad idea.

Ow. I hadn't really paid attention to that implication of "ACP applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks" before, so that's good to know.

[Spiryt]

Here's what I made for armor in 3.U:

{table=head]Armor Type|AC|Max Dex|ACP|Spell Failure|Example
Flexible Light | 2 | 6 | 0 | 5% | Padded, Leather
Bulky Light | 3 | 5 | -1 | 10% | Studded Leather, Chain Shirt
Flexible Medium | 5 | 4 | -2 | 15% | Hide, Scale Mail
Bulky Medium | 6 | 3 | -3 | 20% | Chain Mail, Breastplate
Flexible Heavy | 8 | 2 | -4 | 25% | Splint Mail, Banded Mail
Bulky Heavy | 9 | 1 | -5 | 30% | Half Plate, Full Plate
[/table]

It's simplistic and we haven't figured out weight and cost yet, but it works for now.

Interesting, but it's kinda hard to find more flexible armor than mail, so it probably should be in flexible category. :smallbiggrin:

[Ashtagon]

Here's what I made for armor in 3.U:

{table=head]Armor Type|AC|Max Dex|ACP|Spell Failure|Example
Flexible Light | 2 | 6 | 0 | 5% | Padded, Leather
Bulky Light | 3 | 5 | -1 | 10% | Studded Leather, Chain Shirt
Flexible Medium | 5 | 4 | -2 | 15% | Hide, Scale Mail
Bulky Medium | 6 | 3 | -3 | 20% | Chain Mail, Breastplate
Flexible Heavy | 8 | 2 | -4 | 25% | Splint Mail, Banded Mail
Bulky Heavy | 9 | 1 | -5 | 30% | Half Plate, Full Plate
[/table]

It's simplistic and we haven't figured out weight and cost yet, but it works for now.

Leather jackets and shoe leather are tanned leather, and quite flexible. You could fold the material with one hand. Leather armour is additionally boiled in wax or oil, and is really quite hard. You could punch it and not leave any impression, except possibly on your fist. I don't get why people call it flexible.

[Malak'ai]

Leather jackets and shoe leather are tanned leather, and quite flexible. You could fold the material with one hand. Leather armour is additionally boiled in wax or oil, and is really quite hard. You could punch it and not leave any impression, except possibly on your fist. I don't get why people call it flexible.

It's because not all leather armour was boiled (although it was a VERY small percentage that wasn't). It was made of scraps of leather interwoven over padded jerkins and offered minimal protection against blunt weapons.
It wasn't used very often (normally by the really poor who couldn't afford/make their own larger pieces of leather.

[Ashtagon]

It's because not all leather armour was boiled (although it was a VERY small percentage that wasn't). It was made of scraps of leather interwoven over padded jerkins and offered minimal protection against blunt weapons.
It wasn't used very often (normally by the really poor who couldn't afford/make their own larger pieces of leather.

Leather. If it's not boiled, it ain't armour - merely clothing.

[Yora]

Probably the best case of leather armor is lamellar armor made from small hardened leather plates sewn tightly together. Those scalls can take quite some punishment and after a hit you can just open the laces and replace the damaged ones. Since every hit with a blade will cut the surface of the leather, a boiled leather breastplate would look quite terrible pretty soon, and you can't really fix any holes.

Regular leather is good against thorns, dropped knives, and some bites, but a a sharp dagger and sword will cut through it quite easily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWrDvlyhoF4#t=3m10s), especially when it's a stab instead of a slice.

However, it makes a good protective cover for other armor, to keep dirt and water from getting inside the material, so long as it doesn't get soaked.
Glued together layers of cloth work very well against many forms of attack. Stabbing or hacking on it is a bit like striking a stack of paper, which easily damages the top layer, but you don't need that many layers to stop the attack from going through all the way. The only thing that really "ignores" them are long slashes from a saber or katana, those are perfectly suited to slice through each layer seperately from the side, rather than pressing down on them from the top.
Covering one of those with an outer layer of leather wouldn't reduce the effectiveness at all and might even look quite nice.

[grarrrg]

Names are fluff, it is easy enough to name everything afterwards, so any/all names are considered placeholders for now.
Cost/Weight goes up as the base Armor bonus improves, again, placeholders.

Light Armor:Total Armor Bonus+Max Dex equals 7
Medium Armor:Total Armor Bonus+Max Dex equals 8
Heavy Armor:Total Armor Bonus+Max Dex equals 9
Gives incentive to want to wear heavier armors.

Armor Check is equal to Armor Bonus, Spell Failure is Armor Bonus times 5.
All Light armors are Non-Metal, all heavier armors are metal (we're ignoring the "studded leather">Metal studs thing, like I said, any of these are easy to refluff what they are named).
[SPOILER]{table=head]Name|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex|Armor Check|Spell Failure|Speed|Weight
Light|||||||
Padded||0|7|0|0|norm|lbs.
Leather||1|6|1|5%|norm|lbs.
Studded||2|5|2|10%|norm|lbs.
Medium|||||||
Chain Shirt||3|5|3|15%|slow|lbs.
Chain Mail||4|4|4|20%|slow|lbs.
Breastplate||5|3|5|25%|slow|lbs.
Heavy|||||||
Banded Mail||6|3|6|30%|slow|lbs.
Half-Plate||7|2|7|35%|slow|lbs.
Full Plate||8|1|8|40%|slow|lbs.
[/table][/QUOTE]
Natural armor: increase price by [multiplier], reduce Max Dex by 1. "This armor is made from animal hide/skin/scales/etc... since animal hide/skin/scales are not 100% uniform, and are not designed to be worn by bipeds, blah blah blah, lower Max Dex."

Mage-Wrought: increase price by [multiplier], decrease Armor Bonus by 1, increase ACP by 1, decrease ASF by 10%, only has 2/3rds normal Hardness, and 2/3rds normal HP. "This armor is made with special alloys/gems/etc... that better channel Magical Energies, but are less suitable for use in armor. These alloys/gems blah blah blah, less AC, more ACP, better casting, easier to break."

Either Natural Armor, or Mage-Wrought can be combined with Masterwork (at normal price increase).

[SowZ]

It's because not all leather armour was boiled (although it was a VERY small percentage that wasn't). It was made of scraps of leather interwoven over padded jerkins and offered minimal protection against blunt weapons.
It wasn't used very often (normally by the really poor who couldn't afford/make their own larger pieces of leather.

Actually, leather armour wasn't boiled hardly at all because it didn't really exist.