How to handle pirates crews fighting- mass combat?

[Kol Korran]

Hi there. In an upcoming session the PCs will probably get a crew of 5-10 more people (They are 5 at the moment), and might fight other crews of similar or larger size. Which seems like a hell of a complicated battle, even with many in the opposing crew being duplicates of "sailor number 4" and such. It also means quite a bit of combat time with the focus not on the PCs or what they are doing.

Yes, I can wing it (these 3 hit for 8 damage, these guys miss) but it's unsatisfying. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that you could divide the battle to two parts- the general battle (In which most of the crew fights against similar opponents) and the PCs' fight, where they face the main threats of the ship. If the PC's win, consider the battle won, if they lose, the battle is lost.

They might use one or more of the crew members, but then the extra get part of the XP (And the DM might put extra hands for the opponents if things look ridiculously over matched)

Has anyone tried this before? Or do you have other solutions for such mass combat? Suggestions?



(search word: piratewitch)

[pyromanser244]

I think you're headed in the right direction. my suggestion is this, don't take the party out of the fight, but rather scatter objectives across the field. these can be things like a sniper in the crow's nest or a spell caster or a captain bellowing orders. the sooner these objectives are dealt with the more of the party's mooks will survive. even more importantly, let the players figure this part out. they'll enjoy this much more if they get to feel that they're being clever too.

I'd probably end up with a victory point system. each objective is worth a set amount of points and when the party gets an arbitrary amount in a set time frame they win. also stage some 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 battles between your mook build to get an idea just how long the party has (adjusting for the objectives) to win the battle.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hi there. In an upcoming session the PCs will probably get a crew of 5-10 more people (They are 5 at the moment), and might fight other crews of similar or larger size. Which seems like a hell of a complicated battle, even with many in the opposing crew being duplicates of "sailor number 4" and such. It also means quite a bit of combat time with the focus not on the PCs or what they are doing.

Yes, I can wing it (these 3 hit for 8 damage, these guys miss) but it's unsatisfying. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that you could divide the battle to two parts- the general battle (In which most of the crew fights against similar opponents) and the PCs' fight, where they face the main threats of the ship. If the PC's win, consider the battle won, if they lose, the battle is lost.

They might use one or more of the crew members, but then the extra get part of the XP (And the DM might put extra hands for the opponents if things look ridiculously over matched)

Has anyone tried this before? Or do you have other solutions for such mass combat? Suggestions?



(search word: piratewitch)

What you're describing sounds like the "Battlefield as the Background" section of Heroes of Battle.

If you don't have that book, you could always just use the averages for determining how the npc's affect one another.

For example say sailor #4 does 1d6+3 and can only hit enemy sailor #5 on an 8. The average damage from the dice is 6.5 and he can only deliver it 65% of the time, thus he does .65 X 6.5 4.225 damage per round. Round it off to 4 damage a round and call it a day. You'd still want to roll for things like determining the success/ failure of a trip/bull rush, etc.

[Kol Korran]

I think you're headed in the right direction. my suggestion is this, don't take the party out of the fight, but rather scatter objectives across the field. these can be things like a sniper in the crow's nest or a spell caster or a captain bellowing orders. the sooner these objectives are dealt with the more of the party's mooks will survive. even more importantly, let the players figure this part out. they'll enjoy this much more if they get to feel that they're being clever too.

I'd probably end up with a victory point system. each objective is worth a set amount of points and when the party gets an arbitrary amount in a set time frame they win. also stage some 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 battles between your mook build to get an idea just how long the party has (adjusting for the objectives) to win the battle.

It's not just a single battle. It's a pirating campaign and boarding ships might get to be a major recurring setting for battles. I'm doubtful I would be able to find such objectives for most battles other than "subdue/ kill most officers". Ideally I'd like most "mooks" on the PCs' side to survive, (or be unconscious but healed) Since on the whole they are supposed to be a mostly permanent crew of the ship (they are individual NPCs, not duplicates of generic ones)


What you're describing sounds like the "Battlefield as the Background" section of Heroes of Battle.

If you don't have that book, you could always just use the averages for determining how the npc's affect one another.

For example say sailor #4 does 1d6+3 and can only hit enemy sailor #5 on an 8. The average damage from the dice is 6.5 and he can only deliver it 65% of the time, thus he does .65 X 6.5 4.225 damage per round. Round it off to 4 damage a round and call it a day. You'd still want to roll for things like determining the success/ failure of a trip/bull rush, etc.

It is a bit like battlefield at the background, but far more accessible and open for interaction than the normal battlefield... in the battlefield there are other units, obstacles and distance that interupts. Here everyone is on the same two ships, why would the crew join the fight with the PCs, or vice versa? I need to come toa way to better simulate this...

But I think your "know the averages" (for a lack of a better term) advice could be quite useful. I could make a chart before the battle (well, only for planned battles) and use it to chart the "background battle"'s progress.
-----------------------------------

Anyone else has any more ideas/ advice/ suggestion?

[Callum]

Paizo have created a simplified ship-to-ship combat system for their Pathfinder pirate-themed "Skull & Shackles" Adventure Path. It's available to download for free in the Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8rwc?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Skull-Shackles-Players-Guide).

[some guy]

I played a board game last night called Merchants & Marauders. In it you play a pirate captain or merchant captain (or something inbetween). It had a nice short system for fight between crews; captains rolled their an number of d6 equal to their Leadership score. Every 5+ was a succes. The damage they do to the opposing crew is the number of successes rolled up to their own Crew Number.

So Captain 1 has a Leadership of 4 and a Crew of 2. He rolls 3 successes but can only do 2 damage to the opposing crew because his Crew is 2. Rolls and damage are done simultaneously (so it is possible to have none survivors on both teams).
Keep on rolling until one side wins.

You can say that if a Crew is damaged one crew member is incapacitated. If a side has only incapacitated crew left, damage done means crew members are getting killed.
During these rounds, pc's and Head Bad Guys can do what they want.

Let's try and turn this in a play example.
PC's: leadership of 3, crew of 5
Bad guys: leadership of 4, crew of 4

Round 1:
no succes on both teams
Head Bad Guy shoots a crew member
PC's engage Head Bad Guy

Round 2:
1 succes on both teams, PC's and HBG both have an active crew of 3
PC's and HBG fight each other

Round 3:
2 successes for the PC's, HBG has 1 succes
PC's have an active crew of 2, HBG has an active crew of 1
PC's and HBG fight each other

Round 3:
1 succes for the PC's, HBG has 2 succes but has a crew of 1 so does 1 damage. Meaning; PC's have an active crew of 1, HBG has no active crew.

PC's and HBG fight each other. The last mook of the PC's joins the fight next round or will kill the mooks of the opposing team in the following rounds.

EDIT: or you can roll all these crew rolls at the start of the battle. The surviving mooks join the pc's/captain after 1d3 rounds of fighting.

[laeZ1]

There've been quite a few battlefield encounters (from ship to ship to city warfare, to open field army skirmish) in my D&D game, and I've found a system that works for me.

The base concept of it is that there are two types of NPCs, the "elite", which target the PCs, and the "non-elite" (both allies and enemies), which target each other and basically become impassable (albeit destroyable) terrain. As the battle progresses, if each side is even, the "terrain" moves as an army pushes the other back. The party can intervene with this if they want to use their actions that way, but usually, they're more concerned with that big guy with the magic armor and weapons that plowed his way through.

[Kol Korran]

d "Skull & Shackles" Adventure Path. It's available to download for free in the Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8rwc?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Skull-Shackles-Players-Guide).
THAT is where i heard about the idea to seperate to PC's groups and Crew's group. Thanks, I may use the other rules here. still got some issues with a nautical campaign. Doesn't deal with my problem of what to do with the crew. S&S assumes a faceless crew that often gets replaced. That's not my case.

<Interesting approach to crew battle>

Hmmm... This is a good appraoch. I'll probably change it a bit (reflecting D&D stats a bit more) But it's a good place to start. Thanks! I think this solves my problem!

[some guy]

Glad to be of help!

[nameurl]

Split the crew up between the party, and have them act on their turn, like an animal companion would.

[kennyboyraven]

Kol Korran, did you come up with a system that adapted Someguys approach to D+D? I need the same thing and as opposed to starting from scratch wondered if you'd worked something out. :smallbiggrin:

[Kol Korran]

Kol Korran, did you come up with a system that adapted Someguys approach to D+D? I need the same thing and as opposed to starting from scratch wondered if you'd worked something out. :smallbiggrin:

I did, sort of. I tend to average both teams up, but let me expplain a bit more:
I average HP, AC, Attacks, damage and so on for the PC's team. The general concept is that hits by capable combatants are offset by less combat savvy and so on (a simplification). I also do the same for the opponent team (which is usually easier since it's made of "identical pirate clone number 3" and so on. If anyone in the crews has any special abilities that may come i write them down as well.

For example, the stats for my PC's crew and an opposing team of halfling warriors: (disregard the special abilities of the team, heavily tweaked classes)
Team stats:
Each member- 20 hp. Every 40 hp 1 falls till 80. Then every 20 till 40 left. Then every 10 fall.
Init: +1
AC: 13/13/10
Attack: +5 for 1d8+1
Saves: +3/+3/+3

Bindu:
Spells- 6/5/3, 3/2/1 known. heal spells only

Maruk:
decisive strike, flurry of blows (-2).
6/ day maneuvers: crusader's strike (heal 1d6+2), moment of perfect mind (conc instead of will), counter charge, leading the attack, stone bones.
Stance: stone foot stance (+2 str check, +2 AC against larger foes)
CMW 2/day

Joel:

+1d6 SA,
maneuvers 6/day, moment of perfect mind (conc instead will), sapphire nightmare blade (flat footed, +1d6), steel wind (2 attacks), counter charge, douse the flames, step of the wind

Hush:
power attack, cleave
maneuvers: moment of perfect mind, steel wind, stone bones, charging minotaur, disarming strike, wall of blades (attack replaces AC)

Vas:
3/day- shield, expeditious retreat.

Cresta:
Spells: 1/ day- CLW/ identify, bard's music.

Crew is attacked by (crewx3-3 clan warriors)

HP: 12 per crew, every 24 one falls (up to 48), then every 12 till 24 left, then every 6.
Init: +3
AC 17/14/14
attack: +6 for 1d4
saves: +6/+4/+3

Now, as to the battle: the two groups are given an area which is considered to be their fight zone. (a deck of a ship or the like), the party is given it's own challenge. however, they may come to help the crew, or get the help of one or more of the crew (though this reduces the crew's survival chances, and the party shares the XP with the helping crew member). For example, the party may decide to take the healer with them.

How is the battle conducted: init is rolled for each group as a whole. on it's turn it attacks a number of attacks equal to crew members with the summed up average attack bonus and damage.

each group has a pool of "group hp" from which all damage is deducted. After each set amount of hp a group member falls unconcious. (I assume that except for special battles the crew won't start killing their foes but neutrelize them). The one who falls is determined randomly (usually only important with NPCs with abilities).

But since the damage is supposed to be divided between the group members, I made 3 stages of people loss: up to 4 times one members' hit points, a crew member falls only after twice the amount of one crew member hp.(people are still healthy and wounds are spread around) Then every normal amount of hp, then when there is only twice hp of a crew member left in which point crews fall after every half hp (few hp left, single blows fell people)

not perfect, but i think not too complicated, see example in the descriptions above.

Also, the party are responsible to activate some of the special abilities of specific NPCs (like flurry of blows, maneuvers, healing and such). the abilities are kept simple with intention, and only those that can be used "quick and dirty" in the battle description above are made. (some of the ability listed are for me to remember specific points of interest about the NPCs.

what if an NPC join the party for their fight? how does it affect the battle? what if one falls in battle?
well, I designate the crew members to 3 groups: good combatants, medium ones and bad ones (this I believe will be done nearly only to the PC's crew). if more than 20% of the crew falls that are good combatants, i reduce the attack and possibly the AC, if bad combatants fall, i raise the attack and AC. this is done more "by ear" then by an accurate calculation. a PC that joins the party's fight affect the odds in the same manner. the main effect of a missing character is not having access to it's abilities.

yes, the system may require some refining, but it's the starting platform. i shall refine it during play.

i hope this helps.

[kennyboyraven]

I like it! I shall be using this on the next fight on board. They're docked in their home port atm though. Thanks :)

[Kol Korran]

I like it! I shall be using this on the next fight on board. They're docked in their home port atm though. Thanks :)

Glad you liked it. It came up early in a complex land battle this session, earlier then expected but it worked... kind off. the mechanics are still a bit weird for us, and the party is still new to the crew, but I hope that with a few more tries we can iron it out. I'd love to hear any insights from your tries as well. Perhaps we can build something simple yet fun that works together? :smallwink:

[StreamOfTheSky]

When I did it, I treated the normal hordes of pirates as my own modified version of 4E's minions. Now, I hate the minion rules in 4E, but they can work if you accept 2 stipulations: 1) There should be some sort of minimum damage value for them to actually die in one hit (think I set mine as 5 or 6 damage), anything else should make them "wounded" and then the next hit kills them regardless the amount; 2) Most importantly...under NO circumstances should the minions have an xp value attached as if they were normal enemies, that's MORONIC. Treat them like you would an environmental hazard and have it raise the effective ECL of the fight by however much you think it added to the challenge (can determine this after the fact).

Basically, I set it up so there were about a half dozen (arbitrary number, could be as many as you deem appropriate) named NPC "leaders" scattered about. Battle was won when they were routed. Killing the pirate minions just reduced incoming damage / cleared space for movement and made things easier, it was not necessary at all in order to win. Of course, I had the pirate minions streaming up from below deck in waves (way too easy to wipe them all out at once otherwise), so until they were all dead, killing a huge swathe mostly just meant no volley of arrows/bolts that round.

You could similarly use minions for a "survive for X rounds" scenario or various other scenarios where "kill them all dead" isn't the objective.

After that is just the task of actually determining their attack results. You could just use their attack bonus vs. AC and avg. damage and use the mathematically average damage per round. Or just roll in mass d20's against each PC / important allied NPC they attack. Certainly don't roll for npcs vs. npcs, just use averages for that stuff.

[Kol Korran]

<using minions> That is helpful, but not to my question... i was worried on how to deal with the PC's crew frighting and NPC crew. I allready do a similar thing for what you suggested for battles involving PCs vs. masses of low importance NPCs.