Recommend me a cartoon

[Cen]

..to watch with my 8 years old daughter.
Some time ago I checked what cartoons are being played at local (Polish) children channels and I was schocked how unwachable and generally crappy today's cartoons are, so I decided to pay closer attention to what is she watching and show her some decent cartoons by meself. But recently we're running out of good shows. Could you all please recommend me something to watch with her? non-gore, not stunningly stupid and not endless (yes Dragon Ball, I'm looking at you), with some decent animation and plot?
Cartoons we enjoyed so far: Wakfu, AtLA, AtLoK, MLP:FiM, . Language is not a problem, she's fluent in english

[Tiki Snakes]

Possibly worth trying Azumanga Daioh? Though unfortunately, the DVD's are weirdly hard to get hold of these days.

[endoperez]

Alfred J. Kwak if you can find it.

edit: to expand on it:

It starts with a duckling who is adopted by a different animal. Early episodes handle him going to school and having weird dreams. Then he grows up and starts doing activism, like opposing overfishing. Then he gets older and starts working. Then he finds a girl...

Growth story, in short, but two seasons of it. Handles all sorts of big issues in a child-friendly way.

[Terraoblivion]

Possibly worth trying Azumanga Daioh? Though unfortunately, the DVD's are weirdly hard to get hold of these days.

You mean a show made for guys in their late teens and early 20s that includes Kimura-Sensei? Also I'm pretty sure there isn't a Polish dub which seems like it would be required. I'd have recommended Heartcatch PreCure, but that's Japanese only, with unofficial subs available in English. But that's no good for an eight old girl.

[ArlEammon]

Conan the Adventurer? You can try to get it on Netflix or Youtube. (Be careful looking at stuff on Youtube though). That's probably for little boys though.

[Tiki Snakes]

You mean a show made for guys in their late teens and early 20s that includes Kimura-Sensei? Also I'm pretty sure there isn't a Polish dub which seems like it would be required. I'd have recommended Heartcatch PreCure, but that's Japanese only, with unofficial subs available in English. But that's no good for an eight old girl.

Well, Kimura Sensei is a thing, but otherwise It should be fine. Also called out english language as being fine.

[Terraoblivion]

There are a lot of jokes based on Japanese puns and cultural references. And a sequence several minutes long which has Tomo mispronounce a local specialty from Okinawa to make it sound like she's shouting 'penis'. In general the show just isn't aimed at little kids and a lot of the jokes would probably go right over the head of a little kid, especially one who doesn't know Japanese culture. Also, the dub is kind of awful.

[Nameless]

It's a little hard to give a list of cartoons I'll know she'll like because I don't know anything about her, but here's a list of cartoons I enjoy watching (aside from FiM and Avatar of course).

"Slice-of-Life"/closed narrative cartoons:

Gravity Falls
Adventure Time (Might need a... particular sense of humor for this, though)
Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends
The Amazing World of Gumball
The Powerpuff Girls
Invader Zim
Regular show
Chowder


Cartoons with on-going plots/open narrative:

Green Lantern: The Animated Series
Tron: Uprising
Samurai Jack
Xiaolin Showdown
Jackie Chan Adventures


I can't seem to think of anymore at the moment...

I should probably check out Wakfu at some point.

[Fjolnir]

My cousin's kids have been watching Jackie Chan Adventures and all get a pretty big kick out of it. so there's a +1 for that. Adventure Time is certainly a multi-layered show and fairly accessible having both slice-of-life episodes and an overall myth arc and a show I watch with the aforementioned chilluns.

[Pokonic]

It's a little hard to give a list of cartoons I'll know she'll like because I don't know anything about her, but here's a list of cartoons I enjoy watching (aside from FiM and Avatar of course).

"Slice-of-Life"/closed narrative cartoons:

Gravity Falls
Adventure Time (Might need a... particular sense of humor for this, though)
Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends
The Amazing World of Gumball
The Powerpuff Girls
Invader Zim
Regular show
Chowder


Hmm.....

Out of these, Regular Show, Invader Zim, and Adventure Time would be a mite much for a 8-year old. Rather, put in The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy as well as Flapjack, and you have a goodish selection of shows.

Gravity Falls is the best thing on Disney, however, and you should very much give it a shot.

[Zevox]

The only current show outside of those you already listed in the OP that I think I'd especially recommend is Young Justice, which is a Cartoon Network show about a team of young superheroes who were mostly originally older heroes' sidekicks. (DC characters, so guys like Superboy, Robin, Kid Flash, etc.) It's on hiatus right now, though, and has a tendency to have a weird schedule. It's also on season 2, and you'll really want to see the episodes in order, including seeing season 1 before 2, as it's very story- and continuity-heavy.

Maybe also Green Lantern: The Animated Series, though it's not as good as Young Justice in general.

Zevox

[Anarion]

Have you gone through some of the classics? All of Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, Popeye, Flintstones, Jetsons, Yogi Bear, etc. are excellent, and to the point that their dated nature is itself amusing.

[Chromascope3D]

Rather, put in The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy as well as Flapjack, and you have a goodish selection of shows.


As much as I love Flapjack... It's probably not the best choice for an 8-year old. The nightmares are my main concern. :P

[Slylizard]

Have you gone through some of the classics? All of Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, Popeye, Flintstones, Jetsons, Yogi Bear, etc. are excellent, and to the point that their dated nature is itself amusing.

+1 for the classics, Voltron, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Astro Boy, Transformers.

Also some simple current ones how about Futurama or Simpsons?

[Pokonic]

As much as I love Flapjack... It's probably not the best choice for an 8-year old. The nightmares are my main concern. :P

Hmm, true, but a lot of "good" childrens programing incorperates some form of scary stuff.

+1 for the classics, Voltron, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Astro Boy, Transformers.

Also some simple current ones how about Futurama or Simpsons?

Cursing is something I would be worried about. The child is 8, so that kind of throws out Regular Show and such in my mind.

[Sanguine]

Let's see, looking at what's been mentioned already their are a few glaring absences. None of them are current, but they are all very good.

Danny Phantom
X-Men: Evolution
Code Lyoko*
Dexter's Lab
Batman: The Animated Series
Justice League

I know there are some more really good ones, but I can't think of them at the moment.

*There are some problems with the English localization. Namely, while the main cast all has decent to good voice acting some of the minor roles are just atrocious. Also, they tried to pretend it was set in America despite this clearly not being the case. Despite this, and a couple of other flaws that can't be blamed on localization, I still greatly enjoyed the show.

[Slylizard]

Cursing is something I would be worried about. The child is 8, so that kind of throws out Regular Show and such in my mind.

Fair enough, ignore the regulars then. I'm pretty sure that TMNT and Astro don't have cursing, both also have more modern versions if you'd prefer that angle over the older classic style.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So how much have you gone through the classic 90s Renaissance period cartoons from Disney and WB: Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, Duck Tales (WooHoo!), Talespin, Darkwing Duck, Reboot, and MANY more. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRenaissanceAgeOfAnimation)

They are the reason animation today (or at least the previous five years or so) has been such crap, because once you've seen the level of awesome even a forgotten D/C lister like Histeria could muster for quality there's just no comparison.

And while I don't know if its up your daughter alley I'd be remiss to talk about 90s cartoons without mentioning the the series that doesn't even need to say its name. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A71i0a5x-qA&hd=1)



Also some simple current ones how about Futurama or Simpsons?

I'd watch those with a teenager, I'd not watch those with an 8 year old, if you get my drift.

[Sanguine]

So how much have you gone through the classic 90s Renaissance period cartoons from Disney and WB: Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, Duck Tales (WooHoo!), Talespin, Darkwing Duck, Reboot, and MANY more. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRenaissanceAgeOfAnimation)


*Looks at tvtropes page* Gargoyles! That's what was missing from my list! Anyway, yeah, the 90s rocked when it came to cartoons.

[Pokonic]

Fair enough, ignore the regulars then. I'm pretty sure that TMNT and Astro don't have cursing, both also have more modern versions if you'd prefer that angle over the older classic style.

Hmm, true. From my experiance, the TMNT cartoon that was made by 4kids could actual be quite the decent watch.


Let's see, looking at what's been mentioned already their are a few glaring absences. None of them are current, but they are all very good.

Danny Phantom
X-Men: Evolution
Code Lyoko*
Dexter's Lab
Batman: The Animated Series
Justice League

I know there are some more really good ones, but I can't think of them at the moment.

*There are some problems with the English localization. Namely, while the main cast all has decent to good voice acting some of the minor roles are just atrocious. Also, they tried to pretend it was set in America despite this clearly not being the case. Despite this, and a couple of other flaws that can't be blamed on localization, I still greatly enjoyed the show.

Might have something to do with "classics" clicking as "Cartoon Network" in some peoples minds (heh). One could make a argument that many of Nick's animated programing is and will forever be worse then CN, but Danny Phantom was good-ish. Dexter should have been mentioned earlier and Code Lyoko is great even dispite the flaws the english version had.

Also, how has Kid's Next Door not been mentioned yet? Have you people had childhoods?

[Empedocles]

Xiaolin Showdown isn't as good as a lot of the truly classic shows mentioned (KID's NEXT DOOR) but it's quite good.

[Knaight]

Bamboo Blade might be worth watching. It's nominally about a kendo club, but in practice that is more an excuse to delineate protagonists in a slice of life show which tends towards the absurd. As far as I remember, it is entirely above board. I could also see Kim Possible working, but I'm not particularly familiar with it.

[Manga Shoggoth]

If you can get hold of it, Danger Mouse used to be quite good. It may be a little too "English" and dated, however.

[Nameless]

Hmm.....

Out of these, Regular Show, Invader Zim, and Adventure Time would be a mite much for a 8-year old. Rather, put in The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy as well as Flapjack, and you have a goodish selection of shows.

Gravity Falls is the best thing on Disney, however, and you should very much give it a shot.


Well, I find that everyone is different, even 8 year olds. He mentioned Avatar in his post, and that's a pretty heavy show, especially after season 1. I can see you're point, though. As I said, I wasn't really sure what she would be interested in, so I just put down shows that I used to watch and ones I still watch. :smalltongue: Completely forgot about Bill & Mandy and Flapjack, though.

I also just remembered; Ed, Edd & Eddy and the older series of Courage the Cowardly Dog. It's one of those shows that gives you nightmares as an adult, but makes you laugh as a kid. :smallbiggrin:



And while I don't know if its up your daughter alley I'd be remiss to talk about 90s cartoons without mentioning the the series that doesn't even need to say its name. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A71i0a5x-qA&hd=1)


Batmaaaannnn the animated seeeerieeeeeess. (where's that literal video when I need it?)

*clicks on other link*

Ah! That film about the mouse! THAT FILM ABOUT THE MOUSE! *childhood flashes before my eyes* What was that called? The picture next to the Little Mermaid. I MUST KNOW. :smalleek:

EDIT: An american Tail. That was it.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I should probably check out Wakfu at some point.

You really really should. Fantastic show.

I can't think of anything new to add, but I'll second the Amazing World of Gumball, Gravity Falls, Kids Next Door, Batman: TAS and Adventure Time. Wait, I got one. Recess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recess_%28TV_series%29). I remember loving that show when I was a kid.

[Cen]

Thak you all for suggestions! After reading them I can't imagine how dumb could I be to forget all these classics: Batman: TAS, Samurai jack, Powerpuff girls, Dexter's Lab, Animaniacs! and thanks for these that I haven't heard before (like Danny Phantom, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls)

thanks all!

[Hands_Of_Blue]

Scooby-Doo: Mystery Incorporated. I started watching it purely for nostalgia, but then it turned out to be great. There is an overarching mystery that the entire show is building towards, there's character development, amusing jokes and some neat references to other Hanna Barbera cartoons.

Don't write it off because it is a Scooby-Doo cartoon, it is very good. I watch it with my two year old niece and nephew all the time.

[The Succubus]

Hmmm....Princess Mononoke or Howl's Moving Castle? Maybe Spirited Away?

[DigoDragon]

Scooby-Doo: Mystery Incorporated. I started watching it purely for nostalgia, but then it turned out to be great.

Second. I started watching this myself and it's really good. Like, they replaced much of the original run's campyness with decent writing, plus characters like Fred finally got something of a personality. :smallsmile:

My daughter likes watching Transformers Prime. That's another series where the writing is pretty good.

[Hopeless]

Redwall?

What was the name of that tv series based on the classic animated dinosaurs that at last count had reach tenth movie?

The Little Dinosaur?

[Cen]

Hmmm....Princess Mononoke or Howl's Moving Castle? Maybe Spirited Away?

Mononoke is too gory with all these limbs falling around when A****aka gets a bow, I think she still needs a year or two. Howl's, Totoro and Spirited - yeah, we've seen, were great.


What was the name of that tv series based on the classic animated dinosaurs that at last count had reach tenth movie?

The Little Dinosaur?
The Land Before Time?

[Fjolnir]

That would likely be the one, though they seem to get progressively worse until they hit the nadir and simply roll along the bottom of the children's entertainment barrel in my opinion...

[Nameless]

That would likely be the one, though they seem to get progressively worse until they hit the nadir and simply roll along the bottom of the children's entertainment barrel in my opinion...

Yeah... I'd stick to the first film. I don't really remember enough about the TV series to comment, I just remember not really enjoying it a great deal.

[cildan]

I think that movie is called The Land Before Time iirc

[Sanguine]

I can't believe I forgot this one, it's one of my favorite cartoons currently on the air.

Phineas and Ferb

[Knaight]

Mononoke is too gory with all these limbs falling around when A****aka gets a bow, I think she still needs a year or two. Howl's, Totoro and Spirited - yeah, we've seen, were great.
Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind might be viable as well, though Mononoke very much isn't. Laputa and the Castle in the Sky should work fairly well, and is fairly good, with Ponyo obviously being an option despite being comparatively weak for a Miyazaki film. Moving away from Miyazaki there is Tokyo Godfathers, though there are a few scenes in it that are borderline.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind might be viable as well, though Mononoke very much isn't. Laputa and the Castle in the Sky should work fairly well, and is fairly good, with Ponyo obviously being an option despite being comparatively weak for a Miyazaki film. Moving away from Miyazaki there is Tokyo Godfathers, though there are a few scenes in it that are borderline.

Well Tokyo Godfathers is still a pretty adult oriented movie for not having any real sexual/violent content. Aside from the whole drag queen there's that underlying theme dealing with poverty and homelessness.

However Miyazaki outside of Mononoke is fine, Nausicaa isn't that much darker then Avatar and its the darkest of the lot. And "comparatively weak" on Ponyo there means still better then 99% of stuff.

Though should make the distinct between Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli here:

Grave of the Fireflies is a great movie.... and also will make your soul weep. Probably best to leave that one a few years.

Pom Poko is reasonably fun... if you don't mind tanuki testicles everywhere.

Earthsea is a blah film.

Whispher of the Heart is delightful (my own personal anti-Grave) but may not interest all kids despite being center around two jr high-schoolers since its pretty a low key drama.

The Cat Returns, highly recommended without concern.

There some some others but a couple lack dubs and a probably hard to find. Never hear about 'em except for 100% completion bragging rights.

[Cen]

Tokyo Godfathers
Satoshi Kon? The 'Paprika' and 'Paranoia Agent' guy? Loco in the coco guy? No, really no, even I sometimes have troubles with understanding his work..


Grave of the Fireflies
Great movie - yes. For children - no. It's too sad and depressing.

Nausicaa? hmm ok, we'll try this one first, thanks.

[Knaight]

Satoshi Kon? The 'Paprika' and 'Paranoia Agent' guy? Loco in the coco guy? No, really no, even I sometimes have troubles with understanding his work..

Tokyo Godfather's is much more straightforward. It actually makes sense, it has a proper plot, etc.

[Ravens_cry]

Kiki's Delivery Service is quite light hearted, with a heroine that can best be described as 'plucky'. She has problems, but not on the epic scale of several Hayao Miyazaki films, they are very personal and deal with growing up.
Nausicaä has a giant atomic monster with flesh melting off its bones, and people dying in firey plane crashes, I'm not sure it's exactly suitable, as beautiful a film as it is.

[Nameless]

If we're moving away from cartoons and on to animated things in general, how about the Tim Burton stop motion films? Nightmare Before Christmas/Corpse Bride? I enjoyed those a fair bit. Speaking of stop motion; Wallace & Gromit?
Of course, you could always go down the Disney rout.

There's also an awesome surrealist film called Cat Soup, it's very funny and could be very entertaining for child, but it'squite slow at the beginning. It's also... abstract, to say the least, due to it's surrealist nature, and can be dark at times, so I'm not sure how you'd feel about showing it to your daughter.

[Ravens_cry]

Wallace and Gromit could certainly work, particularly the shorts.
Nightmare Before Christmas is a bit of a toss-up. She might love it or she might be scared silly. Oogie Boogie still makes me shudder.

[Nameless]

Wallace and Gromit could certainly work, particularly the shorts.
Nightmare Before Christmas is a bit of a toss-up. She might love it or she might be scared silly. Oogie Boogie still makes me shudder.

And now I'm reminded of The Halloween Tree. That film was awesome. Also, The Pagemaster.

Oh dear, here comes nostalgia...

[Man on Fire]

Hmmm....Princess Mononoke

Do you want to give this kid nightmares or something?

OP, if your kid liked Avatar: The Last airbender, try Legend Of Korra.

From other things I can think of:
W.I.T.C.H. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQMXvkqzYH8) - first season is only okay/meh, but second one is very, very good, it's good, tasteful magical girls series with decent action.

Spectacular Spider-Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoeOBDSgWBA) - possibly one of the best Spider-man cartoons ever if not the best. Just stay away from ultimate Spider-man, because it suuuuuuuucks.

X-Men Evolution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqW-rbhYpy0) - out of many superhero cartoons out there this one has the characters, your kid will probably quickly find somebody she can relate to.

Shin Mazinger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OZ5apjSwk) - This show is really fun and really insane, in a good way, it starts slowly but once it gets the gears rolling, it just never stops being awesome. Characters are simple, but likeable and it has it's share of seriousness on the top of all giant robot crazyness.

Avengers: Earth's Migtiest Heroes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxaJpUnF6xA) a.k.a. that show with Wasp, Hulk and some other guys. While second season of this show is quite weaker, it's still pretty good series with fun characters (abovementioned Wasp and Hulk) and decent plot.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXhqYcxkuTU) - This show is quite crazy, but in a good way, it's almost endless spiral of characters doing more and more over the top and insane stuff. Take it as what it is - not very deep but not dumb and pretty funny action serier and oth you and your kid should be entrtained. It has it's share of serious or even downright angsty moments throug, but heroes always come af the top in the end.

Justice League (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ-GAxE6RD4) and Justic League Unlimited (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa2jYn3LmlE&feature=related) - good place to enter DCAU, very well written cast and a lot of action overall. You can also try the movies, like Crisis on Two Earths, they are quite good.

GaoGaiGar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w9UX_ZxAmA) - A tale of couragerous men and women (but mostly one cyborg) defending the world from aliens. Very old-fashioned and optimistic show teaching very necessary lesson that everyone can be a hero.

Slayers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QdtEXexKns) - that's a classic, especially in Poland, very funny show about sorceress Lina Inverse and her friends, travelling the world, fighting very serious bad gouys and acting like...well, like your typical D&D party (well, except for looting corpses, not that much remains from their opponents).

Magic Knights Rayearth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB0BKIP0IHg) - Three girls are transported to magical world, where they find out they're choosen to save the preistess kidnapped by evil knight, they have pretty straightfoward fantasy adventures, except for the part involving summoning giant robots with their swords. Warning - be prepared to watch the second season with your kid, because the ending of the first one, of my god that ending.

[Knaight]

Nausicaä has a giant atomic monster with flesh melting off its bones, and people dying in firey plane crashes, I'm not sure it's exactly suitable, as beautiful a film as it is.

I totally forgot about these. In this case, 8 is probably a bit on the young side to watch it, yes.

[Balmas]

How has noone mentioned Phineas and Ferb yet?

There's also one of my favorite disney shows, which unfortunately only lasted two seasons: American Dragon: Jake Long.

[Xondoure]

Jackie Chan Adventures is always good fun. In a similar vein, there's Xaolin Showdown. (Kung Fu, Ancient Artifacts of Asskicking)

[Man on Fire]

One more suggestion - Gunbuster is pretty good adventure cartoon about young girl learning to be a hero...buuut it has it's bits of fanservice, sometimes pretty strong. It's excellent series, but I think you should watch it alone and decide if youg girl should watch it.

[Terraoblivion]

Ummm, Man on Fire, you might want to recheck the age of the girl in question. She's only 8, not exactly sure that Gunbuster or Shin Mazinger, both shows made for 20-something male nerds, are exactly what she's looking for. Gunbuster at least also suffers from very confusing pacing, bizarre tonal shifts and a final battle that only exists in storyboard form, which is all things I imagine a kid wouldn't appreciate that much. I haven't seen Shin Mazinger, but I recall that the clips I've seen were pretty violent.

For that matter, I'm pretty sure a good chunk of Slayers would go over her head too. Remember you're dealing with an 8-year old, not an adult. Also, another thing I've noticed is that your list is extremely oriented towards men, with male power fantasies and male gaze heavily dominant, just like most of the shows you've recommended are the story of some guy with girls and women highly secondary. While this is indeed the norm in children's entertainment, there's no need to perpetuate it.

Instead, my big recommendation for children's entertainment and especially entertainment for preteen girls would be Heartcatch PreCure, or at least it is for preteen girls good enough at reading to easily keep up with subtitles as a dub doesn't exist. Despite the ridiculous title, it's a very solid action show that was specifically made for girls 8-12. The two main characters, Tsubomi and Eriko, are nice, likable and fairly believable girls with real flaws that are still amusing, while Itsuki provides somebody easy to look up to and Yuri is a cool older girl. One of the things that especially stands out about the show is how seriously it takes kids, with episodes dealing with issues such as grief over a dead parent. It's also one of the best kids shows I've encountered in terms of its portrayal of female characters, avoiding making all the girls overly girly as well as the trap of portraying femininity as opposed to competence, strength of character or being proactive. Also, did I mention stylish visuals, great action and intimidating villains? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b19yWkHELRM)

Still, apart from the lack of dub, the show does have flaws. The number of monster of the week episodes can drag, especially for an adult viewer and of course, not every episode is equally good. It would also be quite a lie to say that the show isn't very...pink and can get aggressively girly at a few points. Finally, it really ought to tone down the attempts at selling toys at some point. Despite these flaws, though, I consider it a great kid's show in most ways and to be one adults can definitely watch and enjoy as well.

[Knaight]

Regarding Gunbuster: No, no, and absolutely not. This show is horrible for a whole bunch of reasons, and needs to die in a fire. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, let alone an eight year old - hell, I'd push them towards Grenadier first, and Grenadier is an juvenile mess of gore and pandering.

That said - it occurs to me that Seirei no Moribito may work. I wouldn't advise it for more eight year olds, but AtlA got darker than it, and it was found acceptable. The characters are believable, it's not really that violent and isn't gory at all, and it presents a conflict with good people on both sides, where everyone involved has motives that make sense, which is better than most movies, cartoons, and fictional works in general.

Added to all that, it is a fantasy work based upon a book written by an anthropologist, so it is very believable.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How has noone mentioned Phineas and Ferb yet?
Um...

I can't believe I forgot this one, it's one of my favorite cartoons currently on the air.

Phineas and Ferb

You no take credit for Sanguine's suggestion!

Ben 10 is good. Can't say anything for the sequel shows, as I haven't seen them.

[Man on Fire]

Ummm, Man on Fire, you might want to recheck the age of the girl in question. She's only 8, not exactly sure that Gunbuster or Shin Mazinger, both shows made for 20-something male nerds, are exactly what she's looking for.[ Gunbuster at least also suffers from very confusing pacing, bizarre tonal shifts and a final battle that only exists in storyboard form, which is all things I imagine a kid wouldn't appreciate that much. I haven't seen Shin Mazinger, but I recall that the clips I've seen were pretty violent.

Nah, there isn't really anything that would be problematic for a kid, not much more violence than in say, G.I.Joe, most of violence is violence dealt by giant mindless robots to one another.


For that matter, I'm pretty sure a good chunk of Slayers would go over her head too.

You underestimate the kids, they are smart enough for this show. I watched Slayers and MKR and even Tekkaman Blade at the age of seven and nothing flew over my head, I bet this kid is much smarter than average joe like me.


Also, another thing I've noticed is that your list is extremely oriented towards men, with male power fantasies and male gaze heavily dominant, just like most of the shows you've recommended are the story of some guy with girls and women highly secondary. While this is indeed the norm in children's entertainment, there's no need to perpetuate it.

There is also no need to perpetuate the idea that girls shouldn't watch shows for men. If bunch of adult guys can watch My Little Pony without any shame and even be proud of it, why a girl shouldn't be allowed to like shows for boys? Also, lets see if my list is really that much male-oriented:

Shin Mazinger, Gurren Lagann and GaogaiGar, Spectacular Spider-man - okay, I give you that. They're still fun, well-written and entertaining, but I really give you that.

W.I.T.C.H., Slayers, MKR - are all about girls being heroes and doing heroic things. Don't see anything making them oriented towards men or not suitable for gils in the slightest.

Avengers, Evolution and JL(U) are team shows, shows where women and men both get to be heroes equally, sure, there is more guys, but honestly, in all 3 girls are the best characters (and I heard of at last one little girl who called EMH "that Show With The Wasp") so I would call them neutral. I seriously thought about good shows I watched and considered witch has good, well written heroines who I wouldn't call extras to me. And I belive these shows to be exactly that and characters like Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, Supergirl, Rogue, Shadowcat, Jean Grey, Magma or Boom-Boom are characters girls can relate to.

Gunbuster I honestly belive to be a show young girls should see, because Noriko is a good role model - even through she starts full of doubt and fear, she manages to overcome them and become brave heroine, I like it exactly for that - it teaches us girls can be heroes too and doesn't have to prove to be as good as men al lthe time, which is somehow a problem. And honestly, with a parent sitting next to the kid and ready to explain what is going on, there isn't anything a kid at her age wouldn't understand.

So we have 4 "boy shows" to 3 "girls shows" to 4 neutral. With Gunbuster that's 4 of each, so I don't see how extremely oriented towards men this is supposed to be.

Another thing you should notice is that the girl has already enjoyed Avatar: The Last Airbender and Wakfu, two shows with mostly dominant male cast. I belive that, as long the plot and characters are good, she will be fine.

Knaight - My tastes vs your tastes then, I don't think we should discuss Gunbuster in this thread through, wanna start a new one?

[Terraoblivion]

It's not about violence, it's about it being confusing and probably not terribly interesting for the kid. Gunbuster doesn't have a terribly clearly structured story to put it mildly with characters, setting elements, narrative devices and so on randomly popping in and out, often with no rhyme or reason. I mean, at the start of episode 5, I believe, Jung is there out of freaking nowhere and acts like she's known Noriko for ages and then the show barely even utilizes her. The thing is frankly a confusing mess.

Also, going over the head of kids doesn't specifically mean "doesn't comprehend" so much as "doesn't see the appeal". That said, I do imagine that a mid-90s show heavily relying older D&D tropes and stereotypes might be a bit hard to really grasp the humor in for a girl born a full decade after the show was made. Slayers just relies too much on nerdy inside joke to be accessible. Will it cause great harm? No, I don't think so, but I don't think it'd be terribly interesting either.

As for the point about watching shows meant for men, girls already do that. Most children's entertainment is "gender neutral", which in practice means made from a male perspective with a standard child in mind which just happens to be culturally coded as male. I wanted to provide more shows about competent, varied female characters in order to support children's entertainment that isn't male-dominant and male-coded, as well as to provide some more counterpoint so that MLP doesn't stand on its own as a good show about girls. Speaking as a woman, gender is a huge point of identification, so having shows with cool female characters be a normal thing is a good thing for a young girl. For that matter, for a young boy too in order to have some variety and being used to seeing women in varied roles and avoid the gendered stereotypes of proactive men and reactive women.

However, several of the shows you name go above and beyond that into juvenile male power fantasies and chestbeating glorification of ultramasculinity. Shows such as GaoGaiGar, Shin Mazinger and to a lesser degree TTGL are all about ruminations on a particular form of old-school masculinity heavily centered on machismo and essentialist gender roles, not exactly something with much appeal to a girl, nor a healthy portrayal of gender roles for any kid. It was the presence of aggressively masculine shows like that which caused my comment, not the number of male leads as such.

Also, as a sidenote, GaoGaiGar was horribly unpopular among the kids it was marketed to and found most of its audience among adult nerds, probably not the best recommendation for an actual kid. Shin Mazinger is made from the same nostalgia that made GaoGaiGar popular among adult men rather than kids, there's no real reason to believe that it would be magically better at hitting what kids like.

As for Noriko being a good role model, she isn't really. For one thing Gunbuster does not really care about character development at all, so her growth is weird and erratic. For another the insecure character who overcomes it and becomes a capable hero isn't exactly a new or unique concept, in fact it is one of the most basic permutations of the heroes journey and the primary new thing she adds to it is an unhealthy, vaguely sexual obsession with a much older male mentor-figure. That doesn't really strike me as a particularly good role model.

Also, I find your use of the phrase "girls can be heroes too" noteworthy. After all, that suggests that there's something special or noteworthy about girls, as opposed to boys and men, being heroic. I prefer to recommend shows where girls are simply heroes, rather than othering female heroes and pointing out that there's something special and remarkable about them.

[dps]

I really like Jonny Quest (the original one from the mid 60s--I haven't seen any of the revivals, so I can't say much about them one way or another). There is one caveat, though--for a 1960s kids show, the original had a pretty realistic depiction of crime and violence. You might want to watch it yourself to see if you think it would be suitable for your daughter.

[tensai_oni]

Mecha show recommendations in this thread:

Gurren Lagann has a lot of child-unfriendly material. Gunbuster has even more than that. Shin Mazinger has EVEN MORE than that (as expected of Uncle Go). These are good shows but really, 12+ as far as age goes.

GaoGaiGar is fine though. It's a kids' show. It may have been popular among nostalgia-driven nerds, but it was made as a kids' show and it shows.

Now GaoGaiGar FINAL, the OVA sequel - that's made explicitly for nostalgia-driven otaku, and it shows. I don't mean it as a compliment.


Shows such as GaoGaiGar, Shin Mazinger and to a lesser degree TTGL are all about ruminations on a particular form of old-school masculinity heavily centered on machismo and essentialist gender roles, not exactly something with much appeal to a girl, nor a healthy portrayal of gender roles for any kid. It was the presence of aggressively masculine shows like that which caused my comment, not the number of male leads as such.

You didn't really watch any of these did you? From the three, Gurren Lagann has the biggest amount of "old-school masculinity" as you call it.

[The Second]

Sailor Moon.

The Smurfs.

Mia & Miguel is generally good though it sometimes gets a little preachy.

Between the Lions isn't exactly animated, but it is entertaining and educational.

The Muppet Show. Again, not animated, but great non-the-less.

The classic Sesame Street, before the inclusion of Elmo and his PC friends.

Cardcaptor Sakura. Preferably not the edited for TV version.

She-Ra the Princess of Power.

I can't recall if it was any good or not, but there was Strawberry Shortcake. I generally remember it fondly.

The Animaniacs. Famously not PC though.

The Laugh-a-lympics

Tiny Toons.

The Flintsones.

The Jetsons.

K-on.

The classic Scooby Doo, minus Scrappy.

Pokemon.

I would recommend Project A-Ko if it had a decent English dub. You'd also have to ignore a brief shot of bare boobs and many (many!) panty shots.

Miyazaki films were already mentioned, but Kiki's Delivery Service, My Neighbor Totoro, Howls Moving Castle, Spirited Away, and Nausicca are must sees. Yes, Nausicca does include some nightmare material, but it's one of the best (if not the best) films with a strong female protagonist.

The Peanuts movies.

Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.

Beetlejuice the animated series.

Strawberry Marshmallow.

Earth Defense Force Mao Chan.

In a couple of years, Inyu-Yasha, Rouroni Kenshin, Escaflowne, and Fruits Basket.

The original Herman Hears a Who, The Lorax, and How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

/edit

How could I forget Jabberjaw, Josie and the Pussycats and Wait 'til You r Father Gets Home.

[Kurgan]

I think it was mentioned already, but ReBoot is a fantastic show. First show that was completely computer animated. I think a year or two back it finally got a dvd release. First two seasons are episodic, though halfway through season 2 it switched into a full blown story. Only problem is that it kind of ends on a cliffhanger.

Don't think it was mentioned yet, but Muppet Babies was a rather fun show. I still remember watching an episode after seeing Star Wars for the first time around when I was 8 or 9 [special edition was in theaters], and I was able to see and appreciate some of the references.

Also, this one I have to be vague on because I am not overly familiar with show, but a friend of mine from over your way showed me an episode of a Polish show about a polar bear and his companions, who travel in a hot air balloon through a world ruled by several weather wizards. From what I saw, it seemed nice, though of course quite dated. Always a thought though.

[Man on Fire]

It's not about violence, it's about it being confusing and probably not terribly interesting for the kid. Gunbuster doesn't have a terribly clearly structured story to put it mildly with characters, setting elements, narrative devices and so on randomly popping in and out, often with no rhyme or reason. I mean, at the start of episode 5, I believe, Jung is there out of freaking nowhere and acts like she's known Noriko for ages and then the show barely even utilizes her. The thing is frankly a confusing mess.

I din't noticed it in all honestly, maybe you just haven't paid attention?


Also, going over the head of kids doesn't specifically mean "doesn't comprehend" so much as "doesn't see the appeal". That said, I do imagine that a mid-90s show heavily relying older D&D tropes and stereotypes might be a bit hard to really grasp the humor in for a girl born a full decade after the show was made. Slayers just relies too much on nerdy inside joke to be accessible. Will it cause great harm? No, I don't think so, but I don't think it'd be terribly interesting either.

What nerdy inside joke? There seriously wasn't anything in Slayers I couldn't understand when I was seven, most of the jokes are quite simple and easy to understand even for a kid and don't require some secret RPG knowledge. And I do belive some shows to be timeless - if I could enjoy Daimos and other shows from 70s when I was at her age, I cannot say she probably wouldn't enjoy show from 90s with straight face, that would make ma hipocrite. If no harm will be done by letting her watch it, why should we just assume she wouldn't like it?


As for the point about watching shows meant for men, girls already do that. Most children's entertainment is "gender neutral", which in practice means made from a male perspective with a standard child in mind which just happens to be culturally coded as male. I wanted to provide more shows about competent, varied female characters in order to support children's entertainment that isn't male-dominant and male-coded, as well as to provide some more counterpoint so that MLP doesn't stand on its own as a good show about girls.

I think you did a good job suggesting Precure, I would suggest more magical girls shows if I was more knowlegable in them (I mean, I know Symphogear, but that show is pretty nightmarish), but I don't understand why are you so against my list, when I listed shows who do exactly that too - W.I.T.C.H., Slayers, Magic Knights Rayhearth, X-Men Evolution. And seriously, MLP didn't do anything special, good shows about girls aren't it's invention, at least not for somebody who grew on MKR and Slayers (also, if I have to be honest, I think MLP sucks).


Speaking as a woman, gender is a huge point of identification, so having shows with cool female characters be a normal thing is a good thing for a young girl. For that matter, for a young boy too in order to have some variety and being used to seeing women in varied roles and avoid the gendered stereotypes of proactive men and reactive women.

Let me see if shows I listed have some cool female characters then:
W.I.T.C.H. - All five protagonists, second season also throws in a good female vilian
MKR - All three protagonists
Slayers - Lina and Amelia, Preistess and Dragon Girl whose names I keep forgetting are pretty good too.
JL - Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl. Okay, not very much, but it gets better in JLU, where with Black Canary, Huntress, Supergirl, Vixen and Zatanna.
Shin Mazinger - Tsubasa, possibly most badass character in the entire show, even more that the main character
Gurren Lagann - Yoko, the only person (okay, one of the two, but that other one was a bad guy) who managed to defeat a giant robot on feet, with a lot of interesting character development, the movies also manage to make Nia pretty badass, there's also Adiane who has some badass moments too.


However, several of the shows you name go above and beyond that into juvenile male power fantasies and chestbeating glorification of ultramasculinity.

I must ask too did you actually watched these shows?


Shows such as GaoGaiGar, Shin Mazinger and to a lesser degree TTGL are all about ruminations on a particular form of old-school masculinity heavily centered on machismo and essentialist gender roles, not exactly something with much appeal to a girl, nor a healthy portrayal of gender roles for any kid.It was the presence of aggressively masculine shows like that which caused my comment, not the number of male leads as such.

What the heck are you talking about? I can see essentialist gender roles in GaoGaiGar, but machismo? Entire point and appeal of Gai's character is that he really isn't like that kind of hero, sure, he may yell his attacks, but is actually nice and caring guy. Hell, the entire show's message can be interpretated as that you can be hero without being machismo, and that true courage isn't about not being afraid but overcoming your fear.

Gurren Lagann - sure ,this one is mansculine, I give you that and sure characters are machismo. But it's not really putting on with essentialist gender roles, not with Yoko, who is always a equal member of the team and fights alongside the guys with no problems. Sure, in first few episodes she isn't much of use, but that situation changes as the show evolves (it minors evolution of mecha anime as whole, so it's understable)

Shin Mazinger - Well, on machismo side we have Kouji, but on gnder roles we have Tsubasa, who is nothing like what you're arguing against. She can hold her own in fight and it's her scheming through the series and her badass actions and makes the plot going, she is so important to the plot I dare to say she stands on equal ground as protagonist with Kouji. And it's him who gets to be reactionary - he just goes along with the plan and punches Doctor Hell's monsters, but Tsubasa is actively trying to destroy him and even raising huge army to do so.



Also, as a sidenote, GaoGaiGar was horribly unpopular among the kids it was marketed to and found most of its audience among adult nerds, probably not the best recommendation for an actual kid.

And MLP is more popular among adult men than little girls if youtube statistics are to belived, I think that statistics in this case aren't much important.


Shin Mazinger is made from the same nostalgia that made GaoGaiGar popular among adult men rather than kids, there's no real reason to believe that it would be magically better at hitting what kids like.

"This show looks similiat of that other show, it won't do well with kids because that other, completely unrelated in any way show made over a decade earlier by completely different people didn't." I don't see logic in that argument.

Also, Shin Mazinger isn't made of any nostalgia, it's an adaptation of original manga changed in order to appeal more to current generation of kids.


For one thing Gunbuster does not really care about character development at all,

With all due respect, bullmanure, for me that the thing thi show cares about the most.


so her growth is weird and erratic.

I see it as quick and to the point.


For another the insecure character who overcomes it and becomes a capable hero isn't exactly a new or unique concept, in fact it is one of the most basic permutations of the heroes journey

Irrevelant, never said it's original or new, I said it's good and well made.


and the primary new thing she adds to it is an unhealthy, vaguely sexual obsession with a much older male mentor-figure.

What? Where? I mean, Kazumi falls for the Coach, but Noriko really doesn't and I wouldn't call her relationship with him an obsession in any way.



Also, I find your use of the phrase "girls can be heroes too" noteworthy. After all, that suggests that there's something special or noteworthy about girls, as opposed to boys and men, being heroic. I prefer to recommend shows where girls are simply heroes, rather than othering female heroes and pointing out that there's something special and remarkable about them.

You are nitpicking now. Notice that I used that phrase in a context with another, that in Gunbuster girls doesn't have to prove to be as good as men (mostly because only male pilot in the show dies). I used these two phrases together to express my delight of the fact that Gunbuster does exactly that - it gives us a show where girls are simply heroes and doesn't have to prove to be as good as men. Gunbuster stands out among many shows where girl are heroes in that they does exactly what you and I dislike - have potray girl as special and/or have them having to prove to be as good or even better than men to be accepted as heroes. These thing aren't present in Gunbuster, where girls neither have to compete with men or be threated in some special way (unlike, say Avatar: The Last airbender, where they robbed Zuko from his plotline's resolution just because they were afraid to show Azula being defeated by a man [every other time she was defeated by a man through the series she later got her revenge in one way or another]), they just do heroic things and if they compete, it's with one another.

I read your arguments against Gunbuster and almost all of them sound like fitting more for Diebuster instead, it has, in my eyes, most of the problems you listed, that I generally feel Gunbuster managed to avoid.


Gurren Lagann has a lot of child-unfriendly material. Gunbuster has even more than that. Shin Mazinger has EVEN MORE than that (as expected of Uncle Go). These are good shows but really, 12+ as far as age goes.

I belive that as long as parent will watch with her, there isn't anything that would traumatize her.

And where Shin Mazinger has all this kid-unfriendly material?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Let me see if shows I listed have some cool female characters then:

There's a BIG difference between a show with cool female characters in it and a girl's show. I mention this because you seem to be not aware there's a difference or think its irrelevant.

Yes at some level this is gender typing and stereotyping, but at some level or another males and females are still different. They look for different things, different things hold their interest and so forth. We can argue endlessly how much of this is innate and how much is simply social programming, but for now its not going anywhere. And there's nothing wrong with crossing this divide but it still very definitely exists.

Let me see if I can dig into this:


And seriously, MLP didn't do anything special, good shows about girls aren't it's invention, at least not for somebody who grew on MKR and Slayers (also, if I have to be honest, I think MLP sucks).

Speaking as a brony I would say that what FiM does that Slayers doesn't is that it can play right into very traditionally girly areas and make it work.

In Slayers Lina goes off and has adventures, but when they do say dressing up its played for the comedy of Gourry and Zel being shoved into girly roles, and oh isn't it funny how emasculated they are.

MLP:FiM also does adventure episodes, in perhaps the easiest comparison there's one where the Mane Six have to go and deal with a dragon. I'd say where the difference that shows its really a girl's show is not anything to do with the dragon episode itself, but how not a few episodes later they do an episode entirely about making pretty and stylish dresses for a big dance. And this episode is treated with the same dramatic weight and attention as if its every bit as big a happening as a story as going off to deal with a dragon.

Perhaps most importantly though the dress making episode managed to be if anything better regarded by the male populace that enjoy's the show.

Most neutral (read male focused) entertainment if it does an episode about clothing its going have something like a big shopping montage (because women love to shop amirite?) and probably some level of comedy. Not played for drama, or at least not as serious as the rest of the show.

There's lots of ways to dig into this but I think an important point you are missing is that simply having a female main character (or important/"strong" female characters) does not automatically make a show targeted towards females.

Now one should note there's nothing wrong with girls liking boy things or vice versa... but there's also the reality that females will watch something male-oriented MUCH quicker then the reverse. Which is one factor in why ostensibly "gender neutral" entertainment shows a male slant.

Also an important thing about Slayers you should realize that Lina is basically a man. Not in some gender-confusion way, but 9/10 she is written to react like a man. Best example, one of her deep and personally embarrassing secrets is that she has a formal title as "Lina the Pink" which she despises and hides. And her mannishness is lampshaded at least once when her cross-dressed compatriots are considered more feminine then she is.

Now I must emphasize there is nothing wrong by itself, but its something that is definitely there and worth being aware of. Particularly because its a good sign that a work was written with the male demographic in mind first.

[Man on Fire]

There's a BIG difference between a show with cool female characters in it and a girl's show. I mention this because you seem to be not aware there's a difference or think its irrelevant.

Yes, it is irrevelant, my belief is that girls can enjoy shows not aimed at them, as long as they have characters girls can relate to.


Yes at some level this is gender typing and stereotyping, but at some level or another males and females are still different. They look for different things, different things hold their interest and so forth. We can argue endlessly how much of this is innate and how much is simply social programming, but for now its not going anywhere. And there's nothing wrong with crossing this divide but it still very definitely exists.

But if there is nothing wrong with crossing this divide, then why are you people so up arms against showing girls a show for boys? Why the opposite is acceptable, but this one is imiedetly "putting evil gender stereotypes into girls minds"?


Speaking as a brony I would say that what FiM does that Slayers doesn't is that it can play right into very traditionally girly areas and make it work.

In Slayers Lina goes off and has adventures, but when they do say dressing up its played for the comedy of Gourry and Zel being shoved into girly roles, and oh isn't it funny how emasculated they are.

MLP:FiM also does adventure episodes, in perhaps the easiest comparison there's one where the Mane Six have to go and deal with a dragon. I'd say where the difference that shows its really a girl's show is not anything to do with the dragon episode itself, but how not a few episodes later they do an episode entirely about making pretty and stylish dresses for a big dance. And this episode is treated with the same dramatic weight and attention as if its every bit as big a happening as a story as going off to deal with a dragon.

Perhaps most importantly though the dress making episode managed to be if anything better regarded by the male populace that enjoy's the show.

Most neutral (read male focused) entertainment if it does an episode about clothing its going have something like a big shopping montage (because women love to shop amirite?) and probably some level of comedy. Not played for drama, or at least not as serious as the rest of the show.

There's lots of ways to dig into this but I think an important point you are missing is that simply having a female main character (or important/"strong" female characters) does not automatically make a show targeted towards females.

Now one should note there's nothing wrong with girls liking boy things or vice versa... but there's also the reality that females will watch something male-oriented MUCH quicker then the reverse. Which is one factor in why ostensibly "gender neutral" entertainment shows a male slant.

Also an important thing about Slayers you should realize that Lina is basically a man. Not in some gender-confusion way, but 9/10 she is written to react like a man. Best example, one of her deep and personally embarrassing secrets is that she has a formal title as "Lina the Pink" which she despises and hides. And her mannishness is lampshaded at least once when her cross-dressed compatriots are considered more feminine then she is.

Now I must emphasize there is nothing wrong by itself, but its something that is definitely there and worth being aware of. Particularly because its a good sign that a work was written with the male demographic in mind first.

So in other words, you are saing that it's okay for girls in cartoons to be strong, independent, like to have adventures, but we need to underline all the time that they are still girl and like girly things and threat them very seriously and it's impossible for girl to dislike girly things. Sorry, but I find this to be extremely sexist. Yes, it's okay for girls to be heroes and still be girly, entire Magical Girls genre is about it, but having that message doesn't necessairly make that show superior to others. And I think that divide between boy shows and girl shows should die of and the best way to start is to make both genders watch shows they both can enjoy equally and quite frankly, I belive Slayers to be that show.

EDIT: And one more thing - I remind you people this girl already watched and liked Avatar: The Last Airbender and Wakfu, which I would classify as boy shows. So why not let her try some others from that line, why do we need to keep pushing shows commonly classified as "for girls" on her and it's somehow wrong to have her enjoy more shows which she's not in target demographic?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yes, it is irrevelant, my belief is that girls can enjoy shows not aimed at them, as long as they have characters girls can relate to.

I find that a fairly limited viewpoint.

The "problem" to use the term perhaps a bit loosely is that most entertainment "for everyone" is still really written from a certain male perspective. Thus often simply hides behind the fact that females cross to male-oriented material far more readily then the reverse. Which has a certain negative feed-back effect on those works actually targeted to females, making them narrower and often lower quality because its assumed the male demographic will never be interested.

Treating a difference between "having relatable females" and "targeting the female demographic" as irrelevant universally will have the effect of eliminating entertainment catering to females, while also arguably pushing them into more masculine roles. Now at some universal gender-as-an-outmoded-concept level there's perhaps some virtue to this, but the effect is still basically saying females don't have any separate interests from boys. Or at least none worth being catered to.

As opposed to say creating works that break down the reticence of the male demographic to enjoy female oriented material so that all can be enjoyed and catered too.


But if there is nothing wrong with crossing this divide, then why are you people so up arms against showing girls a show for boys? Why the opposite is acceptable, but this one is imiedetly "putting evil gender stereotypes into girls minds"?

Who's up in arms? I've no objections to Slayers as a show and would hope that say any teenager of either gender would enjoy it. Not kids but that's a separate thing.

However I feel you are ignoring/deprecating issues that are more complex and require more to be fully addressed then simply adding active female roles to existing male oriented work and calling it a day.


So in other words, you are saing that it's okay for girls in cartoons to be strong, independent, like to have adventures, but we need to underline all the time that they are still girl and like girly things and threat them very seriously and it's impossible for girl to dislike girly things.

Not even a little bit.

The significance lies in that the show does something girly with every bit the love and care and quality from the creators as the stories that are more ostensibly "universal" while most "universal" shows wouldn't go near a story like that with a ten foot pole.

... or when they do it far too often seems to be played in a shallower way. Or perhaps that this is some "girls thing" that somehow inherently alien and not to be understood except by those with the proper plumbing to instantly comprehend and relate to it. Whether it is a good story becomes a secondary concern.

Its important to understand that Lauren Faust created FiM with the conscious opinion that most "girl shows" tend to suck, or at least average out lower in quality as stories then their equivalents. And she wanted to correct this. The consideration that men might like it was more the (happy) accident of her wanting to make a show parents of both genders could watch with their daughters and enjoy alongside their kids.

This is less about what boys and girls do and what is "girly" on the surface, but how they are treated under the universal standard of being good stories.

[[Sidebar: I do not want to suggest that an episode around a highly "girly" thing is appropriate for every show either. In a dead serious drama for example it would run a high risk of being inappropriate to the show]]


Sorry, but I find this to be extremely sexist. Yes, it's okay for girls to be heroes and still be girly, entire Magical Girls genre is about it, but having that message doesn't necessairly make that show superior to others. And I think that divide between boy shows and girl shows should die of and the best way to start is to make both genders watch shows they both can enjoy equally and quite frankly, I belive Slayers to be that show.

Who said anything about superior? This has nothing too do with which shows are better or the like. This isn't a zero sum game or anything. Slayers is one of my personal favorite animes, but it still doesn't change the male slant to the show. Its certainly even a lesser case then other examples I could name (Justice League for one) but its not anything I could describe as progressive either. And society should have at least a few progressive examples floating around.

You don't seem to be aware of the difference between breaking down the gender divide, and simply hiding behind the girl/female demographic already having broader preferences. And how there's a trend towards the latter.

[Man on Fire]

Okay, I think we should stop now. I'm sorry, but I cannot write an answer to your post that doesn't dwell into gender roles and why I consider what you're advocating to be harmful to girls or why I'm offended by you sticking labes on everything, even things that, like Slayers for me, doesn't have intended target audience of either gender, and I really don't think OP would appriciate this thread being closed because we dwell into forbidden stuff (and I already have few infractions and don't want to get banned). Lets say we agree to disagree and leave it at it, ok?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Okay, I think we should stop now. I'm sorry, but I cannot write an answer to your post that doesn't dwell into gender roles and why I consider what you're advocating to be harmful to girls or why I'm offended by you sticking labes on everything, even things that, like Slayers for me, doesn't have intended target audience of either gender, and I really don't think OP would appriciate this thread being closed because we dwell into forbidden stuff (and I already have few infractions and don't want to get banned). Lets say we agree to disagree and leave it at it, ok?

Meh, the problem as I read it is you think I'm leveling a criticism at Slayers and getting all White Knight-y for your one show.

I'm not. This isn't about one show or any particular show. This is big picture stuff.

There is not a problem with Slayer as a show. Well as relevant here, love the show but its not "teh gratest evar" either. For certain times and values its an improvement. Its great for well not little girls (boob jokes, violence, etc, its not for kids of either gender) but certainly girls getting into their teen years to enjoy the show and things like it.

However Slayers, Lina, and shows of similar model are by themselves insufficient.

You seem to be taking that (which if you note actually has little to do with a show) as if this is some zero sum game where not being enough means they need to taken out back and shot or something to make room for what is "right" or whatever. Hardly, we need to be broadening perspectives which means adding to the media picture.

I however am EVEN MORE STRONGLY against subtracting anything like Slayers from the picture.

[Terraoblivion]

Okay, I think we should stop now. I'm sorry, but I cannot write an answer to your post that doesn't dwell into gender roles and why I consider what you're advocating to be harmful to girls or why I'm offended by you sticking labes on everything, even things that, like Slayers for me, doesn't have intended target audience of either gender, and I really don't think OP would appriciate this thread being closed because we dwell into forbidden stuff (and I already have few infractions and don't want to get banned). Lets say we agree to disagree and leave it at it, ok?

Gender roles exist. We cannot just pretend they don't and in fact most aspects of human activity are gendered by society. By saying that only female heroes who do the same things and have the same interests as male ones are suitable role models, we essentially say that the way for women to become equal with men is to cease being women. The good thing about shows such as MLP: FiM or HeartCatch PreCure is that they present a spectrum and a variety of ways of being female and treat all of them as being equally valid, female and when relevant heroic. Rarity is not presented as any weaker or sillier than Rainbow Dash for being traditionally feminine, just like Rainbow Dash is still presented as a girl who just happens to be competitive and like sports.

Unlike so many shows, including quite a few well-meaning ones specifically setting out to try and provide role models for girls, where the way to be a strong female character is to be just like a man, these shows don't present a conflict between classic male-coded traits like sports, being competitive or courage and classic female-coded ones like interest in fashion, valuing harmony among friends or being understanding and compassionate to enemies. In essence, both respect the feminine and say that it is no barrier to heroism and strength, while also denying that there is a gender binary in virtues in ways that I've never seen entertainment aimed at young boys do.

As for all the other things you said, I'll go over them really briefly. First, I'll accept that I was unclear on GaoGaiGar. It is a show about men being heroic thanks to enacting male-coded virtues while women are generally pretty irrelevant, but it isn't strictly speaking machismo. It's still heavily male-oriented in everything it does, but not in that specific way. I also stand by Slayers being pretty culturally-based given how much of it is self-awareness of the genre as it commonly existed in the early 90s and that sets a higher bar for entry in terms of knowledge and understanding required than a fairly plain and honest story like Daimos.

As for Gunbuster, it wasn't that I didn't get what happened, it's that I can tell that despite doing so, it was poorly told. Also, the final battle is told as a storyboard and everything after it except for the very final scene is in black and white because they ran out of money for coloring. That isn't exactly something that helps make a show accessible or easily followed for people who don't pay close attention and weren't warned of these things in advance. Also, you can't see how Noriko's obsession with Coach easily comes off skeevy and sexual? Like at all? Or how a lot of things in the show are kinda arbitrary and happen with little warning?

Finally, the comment about you saying that girls can be heroes too wasn't about the show, it was about you. That you see heroism as something male and it being noteworthy that women can do it as well. Given what you've said about female role models and heroes, essentially that they need to adopt male-coded behavior exclusively, I can't really say I feel wrong in that assessment of your view of the matter.

[Man on Fire]

Soras Teva Gee - I never said that these shows are sufficent by themselves. I just recommended what I know and I like, my list was in no way upposed to be complete and absolute. These were however the additions to other people's suggestions, hoping that others will fill with shows from other parts of the spectrum, that I did not listed. Instead I was attacked for trying to force these shows on little girl and threat like I thought they were enough, just because...because I didn't listed shows I haven't watched? I belive the shows I listed are fine additions to the filmography, not the whole filmography the girl should have see.

Terraoblivion - I will adress only the last part of your post.


Finally, the comment about you saying that girls can be heroes too wasn't about the show, it was about you. That you see heroism as something male and it being noteworthy that women can do it as well. Given what you've said about female role models and heroes, essentially that they need to adopt male-coded behavior exclusively, I can't really say I feel wrong in that assessment of your view of the matter.

I feel very offended by what you have said here. I feel very offended because you have ignored how I have said at least few times that I do belive gils can be both heroic and girly at the same time and that I expressed my regret about not knowing many magical girls shows, as I belive this genre to pull exactly that kind of combination very well. I am offended that you have took few words out of context, changing their meaning to say what you want them. In original context I meant that I find it noteworthy that girls in Gunbuster can be heroes, and now is important part, without having to compete with men, because I despise shows where girls need for some reason to prove themselves being as good as men (which pretty much leads to whole "adopting male-coded behavior" thing). You have took my words, twisted their meaning and slapped a label at me, which I find to be very disrespectful. You cintinued doing so after I explained what I meant, which I find to be even more disrespectful, because if you would have done that by mistake, I belive you would have explained it, instead you did the same thing again. Therefore I'm not going to continue discussion with you, if you want to fight a strawman, build yourself one, I won't let you dress me like one.

That being said I would like to finish this discussion, I belive it to be derailing the thread and putting me at risk of reciving infraction and getting banned. therefore, please to forgive me, but I won't post or answer anymore in this thread.

[endoperez]

Soras Teva Gee - I never said that these shows are sufficent by themselves. I just recommended what I know and I like, my list was in no way upposed to be complete and absolute. These were however the additions to other people's suggestions, hoping that others will fill with shows from other parts of the spectrum, that I did not listed. Instead I was attacked for trying to force these shows on little girl and threat like I thought they were enough, just because...because I didn't listed shows I haven't watched? I belive the shows I listed are fine additions to the filmography, not the whole filmography the girl should have see.

You were no attacked. Another person gave a different opinion, politely telling you that, in their opinion, the shows you listed are not appopriate for an 8-year-old. The fact that Slayers was targeted towards male audience was an afterthought to that, and a preword for recommending Precure.

You wrote a long reply to that, and the argument grew from that. It never was an attack, but an argument. A difference in opinions.

[Radar]

If this thread still sereves it's main purpose, then I'd like to list some older classic cartoons, which should be appropriate:
Maya the Bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_the_Bee_%28anime%29) (suitable even for younger children),
The Mysterious Cities of Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold),
Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartakus_and_the_Sun_Beneath_the_Sea) (this might be a bit difficult to understand - I know, I had problems),
Ulysses 31 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_31),
Mole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28Zden%C4%9Bk_Miler_character%29) (surely for younger children, but still might be good)
Count Duckula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Duckula) (a bit silly premise, but I remember it to be quite entertaining),

Conveniently, all of those series have Polish dub (it might be harder to find then English though).

Also, if Polish cartoons are good too, then you might want to take a look at
Przygody Kota Filemona (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kot_Filemon) (also suitable for younger children; great drawing technique by the way) and Porwanie Baltazara Gąbki (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porwanie_Baltazara_G%C4%85bki).

[Pokonic]

Okay, I think we should stop now.

And Christmas was saved!


If this thread still sereves it's main purpose, then I'd like to list some older classic cartoons, which should be appropriate:
Maya the Bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_the_Bee_%28anime%29) (suitable even for younger children),
The Mysterious Cities of Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold),
Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartakus_and_the_Sun_Beneath_the_Sea) (this might be a bit difficult to understand - I know, I had problems),
Ulysses 31 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_31),
Mole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28Zden%C4%9Bk_Miler_character%29) (surely for younger children, but still might be good)
Count Duckula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Duckula) (a bit silly premise, but I remember it to be quite entertaining),

Conveniently, all of those series have Polish dub (it might be harder to find then English though).

Also, if Polish cartoons are good too, then you might want to take a look at
Przygody Kota Filemona (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kot_Filemon) (also suitable for younger children; great drawing technique by the way) and Porwanie Baltazara Gąbki (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porwanie_Baltazara_G%C4%85bki).

I second Count Duckla, babysitting was much easier with taped copies of that laying around. Actualy, in hindsight, most animated shows with -duck in there name are pretty watchable. Darkwing Duck, Ducktales, Duck Dodgers...

[Soras Teva Gee]

I second Count Duckla, babysitting was much easier with taped copies of that laying around. Actualy, in hindsight, most animated shows with -duck in there name are pretty watchable. Darkwing Duck, Ducktales, Duck Dodgers...

Cartoons are better with ducks?

[Xondoure]

Cartoons are better with ducks?

And rabbits.

[Hiro Protagonest]

She-Ra the Princess of Power.

There is no "the".

Also, you recommend that, but not its older brother, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe? The 80s version, not either of the two remakes. One, New Adventures of He-Man, is also a sequel of sorts and said to be pretty bad, and the other, the 2002 version, is said to be better than the original but more mature (although probably at the 12+ level). He-Man shows up in She-Ra often, it would help to have some knowledge of who he is.

The shows have some sexist undertones, but the female characters are fully capable of handling problems by themselves. The only real problem is that She-Ra, a show with a female lead, mostly shows reactive stuff. Rebels wait in Whispering Woods and mostly just make some forays into nearby towns to speak or trade with the villagers, and She-Ra (not Adora, who does plenty of traveling) only takes action when the Horde attacks them. It's somewhat justified with He-Man, because he's on the side that's in control of Eternia, and Skeletor is the instigating force disrupting the peace, but when you're a rebellion, you are the instigating force, challenging the status quo. You shouldn't be part of the status quo.

Ultimately, though, the shows are good. An eight-year-old shouldn't manage to delve deep enough to uncover the problems without being intelligent beyond her years, and I can enjoy them.

BraveStarr could also be good.

All three of those shows use stock footage, like He-Man's single-punch sequence, but Filmation was quite good at making it look decent by changing the background to match wherever the characters were. And of course, He-Man/She-Ra always uses the same footage for calling upon Grayskull's power.

Oh, and I read on Wikipedia that The Secret of the Sword was a compilation of the first five episodes of She-Ra with slight edits (although actually, I think the movie came first). So which is better, the first five episodes or The Secret of the Sword? I'm voting for the movie even though I haven't seen the episodes, it has an awesome song in the starting and ending credits. On the other hand, there are some inconsistencies, such as the first flashback having Hordak wielding a trooper baton and the second having it be his arm cannon, and Adam just sitting there while Cringer eats his fish, then picking up his mostly off-screen turkey leg and there being a bite in the leg even though nobody bit it.

[ran88dom99]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Radar/TheGrimAdventuresOfBillyAndMandy

Invader Zim is better.

All the Terry Pratchett movies.

[Dr.Epic]

Gravity Falls, Adventure Time, or Regular Show: 3 best animated shows out there right now for kids and adults. And above all else, stay away from Mad and Annoying Orange - the anti-entertainment.

[Hunter_Rose]

I second the recommendations for "Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends" and "Chowder" and I would also recommend checking out "Jane and the Dragon". I started watching Jane when I was looking for cartoons on a Saturday morning. It also has the main character making up her own family friendly curse words (maggots) and it's fairly subversive in its own way. I'm a big fan of "Regular Show" but I am unsure if it will translate well into Polish and if you didn't experience the 80's (particularly in the United States) you might not get most of the jokes but it's a great show for parent appeal and getting crap past the radar.

[Metahuman1]

Off the top of my head, a couple that I've not scene yet are

Superman: The Animate Series, yeah, I know, it's superman, and a lot of people don't like tha, and a lot of people say batman was better. But Largely, Batman is also a LOT darker then the superman series was, so that's a factor.

Spectacular Spiderman was a solid edition, no questions, but Amazing Spiderman from the 90's was good two. And the 90's X-men series was very well done, even if arguably not as well done as X-men Evolution. Both are worth a look though.

This could be real hit or miss, but I'll chance it since your on a website for a web comic based on dungeons and dragons rules. Try D&D: TSA. Just a though. Again, be advised, this might not work.

The Original Thundercats, which wasn't as dark as the reboot (And some would argue better written in a lot of aspects.), is also probably worth a look. And while on the subject of things Rankin Bass Productions put out, I must suggest the Animated version of the Hobbit (A good introduction to Tolken, maybe read her the book after she's scene the movie.). Do not, however, go past the Hobbit. Trust me.

They also had another excellent movie, Flight of Dragons, and that is one I can't recommend strongly enough. You are doing both yourself and your daughter a service showing her that movie.

The last Unicorn is also an excellent bit of animation. I still to this day can't listen to the opening credits song with completely dry eyes.

And a more Modern Cartoon, though it may be a bit dark/Mature, is Generator Rex.

Another good Reboot, was surprisingly the G.I. Joe Reboot, G. I. Joe Renegades, though that might not really suit her/your tastes, or be something she's really gonna be terribly interested in. Still, worth a try. If she's not into it by the time the Ninja's Origin Story has been covered, you'll know.

One last one that not a lot of people know about. There was an animated short done in like the 1960's by Chuck Jones (The Loony Toons guy.) of the Classic Kipling short story Rikki Tikki Tavi. I remember it most fondly indeed from my child hood, so now I shall also give it a recommendation.

Beyond that, read the forum. I didn't like everything that's been suggested here, but I did like the bulk of it. Everything on the suggested list is a Gem in it's own right, even if I didn't care form some of it.

[Eldan]

,
Mole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28Zden%C4%9Bk_Miler_character%29) (surely for younger children, but still might be good)

Wow. You just Nostalgia punched me. In the stomach. Now I'll be smiling for the next hour. :smallsmile:

[ShellBullet]

No one mentioned Patlabor tv series or Nadesico?
Patlabor is lighthearted show that follows second division of Japanese labor forces ( aka mechas) , which struggles to to solve labor related crimes.

Nadesico is another lighthearted show, that I can recommend.

Rinne no lagrange and moretsu pirates ( aka Bodacious Space Pirates) os also rather good. Despite what its name might imply, moretsu space pirates doesn't do have any fanservice...Well there was that one lesbian kissing scene, but not really other fanservice. Both are fairly new being aired this or last year.

[Terraoblivion]

No one mentioned Patlabor tv series or Nadesico?
Patlabor is lighthearted show that follows second division of Japanese labor forces ( aka mechas) , which struggles to to solve labor related crimes.

Nadesico is another lighthearted show, that I can recommend.

Rinne no lagrange and moretsu pirates ( aka Bodacious Space Pirates) os also rather good. Despite what its name might imply, moretsu space pirates doesn't do have any fanservice...Well there was that one lesbian kissing scene, but not really other fanservice. Both are fairly new being aired this or last year.

Ummm, you do know that it's for recommendations for something to watch with a kid, right? I mean, I've watched the three Tatsuo Sato shows among them and liked all of them with one of them, Mouretsu Pirates, being one of my all time favorite shows, but I don't really think they'd be accessible for a kid. Especially Mouretsu Pirates which has long infodumps about hacking and ID transponders, as well as some relatively complex plot points about negotiating contracts.

[Radar]

Wow. You just Nostalgia punched me. In the stomach. Now I'll be smiling for the next hour. :smallsmile:
Then you probably know Pat & Mat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_%26_Mat) as well. It's immensly amusing to see those two invent ingenious solutions to problems, which they should never fall into. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN3A-5w9FD8) is such a great series.

[Eldan]

They seem vaguely familiar, but not to the same degree as Mole, which ran on German TV when I was little.

[falloutimperial]

"Gargoyles" all the way. I can't recommend this one enough.

Also: Batman the Animated Series, Superman the Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice league unlimited. In that order.

[Man on Fire]

Ummm, you do know that it's for recommendations for something to watch with a kid, right? I mean, I've watched the three Tatsuo Sato shows among them and liked all of them with one of them, Mouretsu Pirates, being one of my all time favorite shows, but I don't really think they'd be accessible for a kid. Especially Mouretsu Pirates which has long infodumps about hacking and ID transponders, as well as some relatively complex plot points about negotiating contracts.


Kids are smarter than you give them.

[ShellBullet]

Ummm, you do know that it's for recommendations for something to watch with a kid, right? I mean, I've watched the three Tatsuo Sato shows among them and liked all of them with one of them, Mouretsu Pirates, being one of my all time favorite shows, but I don't really think they'd be accessible for a kid. Especially Mouretsu Pirates which has long infodumps about hacking and ID transponders, as well as some relatively complex plot points about negotiating contracts.

Well you got point with Moretsu pirates and to some extent with nadesico, but with nadesico the info dump isn't that bad. They are relatively short and sprinkled around 26 episode, not to mention they can be amusing and nadesico has mecha fights, comedy and romance to balance that.

Rinne no lagrange has amusing comedy scenes and centers around friendship between three teenage girls with occasional mecha fights, I don't see any reason why 8-year old can't enjoy that even with some info dumps.

[Terraoblivion]

The eel scene in RnL. That's kind of a big deal, really. Apart from that I guess you could make a pretty solid argument that an eight-year old girl would be more accepting of the places where the plot doesn't make sense and things just kinda happens out of nowhere than an adult would. Still between the eel scene and some of the stuff in the second half I wouldn't really recommend the show for a kid, even if it is probably harmless.

Mouretsu Pirates on the other is too talky and reliant on paying attention on the details of large amounts of information to be suitable for a kid. It's absolutely harmless in every way and there are certainly bits a kid could find fun, but mostly it seems too dry to really entertain them.

[ShellBullet]

The eel scene in RnL. That's kind of a big deal, really. Apart from that I guess you could make a pretty solid argument that an eight-year old girl would be more accepting of the places where the plot doesn't make sense and things just kinda happens out of nowhere than an adult would. Still between the eel scene and some of the stuff in the second half I wouldn't really recommend the show for a kid, even if it is probably harmless.

Oh damn, forgot all about that eel scene. Do you remember which episode that was again? Op Could watch himself or herself, if it's suitable for children, besides I doubt that 8-year old can pick up implications which it has, but decides herself that Lan might blush because they are cold\ticklish or strange sensations? Other than that scene it's suitable for children, If I am not forgetting something.


Mouretsu Pirates on the other is too talky and reliant on paying attention on the details of large amounts of information to be suitable for a kid. It's absolutely harmless in every way and there are certainly bits a kid could find fun, but mostly it seems too dry to really entertain them.

I already agreed the point about moretsu pirates and you are rights about the show, now that I think about, but I must still protest about nadesico being too talky with kids unless you agree with me that it isn't too talky or unappreciative with kids. Still Op might might check for the show for his\her own personal watch list.

[Man on Fire]

How about doing logical thing and telling OP to watch these shows first, before letting her watch them? Gunbuster also has some fanservice, that's why I told him to do so with it. We should let him decide what's appriorate for his daughter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mighty Ducks, anthropomorphic hockey playing ducks who fight against lizard enemies, what's not to like? (I haven't seen the show in ages; but I have fond memories of it)

Batman Beyond is pretty good (as most of the DCAU) thought a bit dark.

I've heard some good things about Winx Club and it's derivatives; but I don't know how good or bad it is, as it never really caught my attention.

I also disagree on many recommendations like Flapjack, Billy & Mandy and the like; but that is mainly because I utterly despise their gross-out/ OMG X character did something stupid humour; but apparently that is a minority.

[Knaight]

How about doing logical thing and telling OP to watch these shows first, before letting her watch them? Gunbuster also has some fanservice, that's why I told him to do so with it. We should let him decide what's appriorate for his daughter.

We are letting him decide what's appropriate. That doesn't mean we should throw in every outlandish show regardless of how appropriate we think they are. This argument could be applied to just about anything - "sure, I reccomended Octopus Party Schoolgirl Supreme, but you know, the logical thing is having the OP watch these shows first to decide what is appropriate rather than making that decision ourselves, so I don't see how I'm in the wrong here" is pretty much the exact same logic, but I think we all agree that anything called Octopus Party Schoolgirl Supreme is a disaster and that suggesting it is a terrible idea.

Incidentally, I don't know if this exists, I don't want to know if this exists, and if anybody does note that it does exist I don't want to know details. I'm hoping it doesn't exist, but I'm not holding my breath on this one.