Should I Fear My Halfling Swashbuckler?

[Palanan]

In yesterday's game session, the halfling swashbuckler rolled through a wilderness ambush with virtually no help from the rest of the party. He took down five bandits with superlative ease, and I'm still trying to work out exactly what happened. I'm not sure whether I miscalibrated something, or if the dice were just very good to him.

The party had finished the session's main encounter sooner than expected, so I threw in an ambush for flavor and fun. I hastily worked up a band of first-level fighters (two swordsmen, three archers) and dropped them along the party's route. All three party members were fourth level. As for what happened next....


First Contact

Despite their decent hide checks (in the 16-20 range), the swashbuckler spotted all five bandits at his first opportunity. Seeing they'd been made, the bandit leader won initiative and headed straight for the swashbuckler, raising his sword--

--and I rolled a 7 on his attack.

And the halfling walks up and crits him. Down in one.

Long-Distance Love

The archers went next, and the second archer critted the halfling right back, almost killing him outright. But the halfling plowed on towards the third archer, burning a couple charges from his healing belt on the way.

Meanwhile, the cleric cast Local Tremor, which she'd been saving for a terrestrial encounter--and the bandit she'd targeted very handily made his reflex save. Immediately afterwards the cleric and the bard both came in for some hurt, so the halfling was on his own.

Knife Fight

...Which was fine with him. The third archer got off a single shot at the grim little halfling churning up the slope at him...and missed, allowing the halfling to deliver some TWF at close range. The archer made the mistake of trying to join the knife fight, and the next round the halfling takes him down to 1 hp, while an arrow clatters uselessly off the rocks behind him.

Meanwhile there's angry, confused shouting from downslope; first the bard and then the cleric have gone invisible, and the remaining swordsman and one of the archers are trying to find them, with another local tremor and another easily-made reflex save. (Why can't they attack half as well as they keep their balance?)

Backstabbity

The second archer draws a bead on the halfling, now locked in combat, and manages to shoot his colleague in the back instead.

Now the halfling activates a drow token with Expeditious Retreat, flashes across the intervening space and deals with the second archer: one expeditious crit and he's down.

Meanwhile the second swordsman gives up searching for the vanished party members and starts closing on the halfling--and a wolf snaps its jaws around his neck from behind. (Cleric/druid, I should have mentioned.) The swordsman flings it off and kills it with one blow--but now the halfling has come up behind him and it's backstabbin' time again.

Is It Too Late To Say I'm Sorry?

The final bandit, the last archer, takes a couple of panicky point-blank shots at the halfling and misses both times, thanks to my rolling a 3 and something else equally unhelpful. A handy five-foot step saves the archer for a mere moment, and then the halfling takes him down as well. After the near-fatal crit in the second round, he hasn't been touched since.


So What Happened?

According to the d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), five CR 1 opponents facing three 4th-level PCS should be Very Difficult. It certainly was for the cleric and the bard, who were both fairly seriously wounded, and they managed to have very little effect in combat. (At one point the cleric used Close Wounds on the halfling, but her local tremors were almost useless.)

Thus, the halfling was very nearly on his own against the bandits, which according to the Encounter Calculator should have been an Overpowering fight. Am I missing something essential? This was a completely on-the-fly encounter, but I expected the bandits to be something more of a challenge.

So, was the halfling swashbuckler just lucky this time around? Or should I plan to kick up the next encounter with something much tougher?
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[JKTrickster]

This honestly seems more like a mixture of luck and poor planning on the NPCs part.

First, the Swashbuckler critted an awfully huge amount of times. What weapon is he using?

Second, the Swashbuckler never fought all of them at once. The party used smart divide-and-conquer tactics and the Swashbuckler really only fought two people at once.

Third, most of the bandits were archers. At level one. Not only do they barely have enough HP to survive two hits, or one critical, they can't even participate that well in close range combat. If it was both of the swordsmen versus one Swashbuckler, I could imagine things going south really, really fast.

Finally, the Swashbuckler probably has higher attack due getting Int to Attack as well as having a good Dex to pump his AC. That's fine - honestly the Swashbuckler doesn't do that much damage anyway.

It's just a combination of how squishy level 1 characters are (even Fighters) and some poor luck and tactics on the NPCs part. For example, why did the 2nd Swordsman leave the archers alone with the Swashbuckler? That honestly sounds like a terrible plan to me. If he had stayed the whole fight would have gone a totally different direction.

[Diarmuid]

Sounds like a decent combination of bad tactics, good rolls for the player, and bad rolls for the DM.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. The character can't maintain that level of luck indefinitely.

Some things to perhaps help your bad guys work a little better next time:

Depending on how long they had to set up their ambush there's no reason not to take 20 on those hide checks.

When you've got archer backup, there's no reason to go charging the guy with the sword in his hand. Stand in front of your archers and let them pepper your target from afar.

Just because he saw on guy doesnt mean he saw them all. Some of those archers should perhaps have received bonuses to hit due to attacking from hiding.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Finally, the Swashbuckler probably has higher attack due getting Int to Attack as well as having a good Dex to pump his AC. That's fine - honestly the Swashbuckler doesn't do that much damage anyway.

They don't get int to attack.

[JKTrickster]

They don't get int to attack.

Isn't that what their Insightful Strike class feature does?

[LordHenry]

I'm surprised that this encounter is labeled "very difficult". I don't know the grade of optimization involved (I'd guess not too much), but as long as it's not intentionally unoptimised I think three lvl 4 PC's should do quite fine under non-punishing circumstances (As I understood it, they have not really been surprised, like the enemy getting of a surprise round, I also think they have still had some resources left).
Lvl 1 enemies tend to drop quite fast, much unlike your lvl 4 PC's. I also wouldn't worry about your swashbuckler player - he seems fine. As fas as I can tell he's the party's fighter type and dropping enemies is his job.

Also, imo 3 Lvl 2 fighter would have been more of a threat. Their hp almost gets doubled, making it harder to drop them with 1 strike and they are in general a bit more potent. Also, it's important that intelligent beings are played smartly...they really should try to focus and kill one PC.

Lastly, be careful on circumstancial factors like an ambush etc: Let's say they had pulled of their amgbush successfully (very well hidden with mb a circumstance bonus for their hide and the pc's just failed to spot them): IIRC there were 3 archers, all of which will fire 1 arrow on 1 single PC, while 2 fighter types might close in. Something like that can become very dangerous, if not deadly. Those archers usually tend to focus guys with robes and generally looking fragile.
Had the ambush been pulled of successfully, imo, it really woul dhave been a difficult encounter.

On a side note, I also dm for a group of three players... and they quite frequently surprise me with their capabilities. Although they are admittedly quite strong for their level, a challenging encounter for them has to be at least 1-2 lvl above their ECL... (Like when they are all Lvl 6 and ECL 6 now - it's at least CR 7-8 for a non trivial encounter)

[LordHenry]

Isn't that what their Insightful Strike class feature does?

It adds their Int mod to dmg

[Malak'ai]

Finally, the Swashbuckler probably has higher attack due getting Int to Attack as well as having a good Dex to pump his AC. That's fine - honestly the Swashbuckler doesn't do that much damage anyway.


It's INT to damage not attack. But at level 4 (and being a Halfling), with, lets assume a 16 in Dex that's 4+3+1+1-2=+7 to attack (if he's TWF'ing, +9 otherwise) not taking into consideration any other feats or abilities to up it even more, though I have included the bonus for a masterwork weapon, because come on, at level 4 you should have one of those at least. So with a normal level 1 archer npc (once again, assuming the Warrior NPC class) your looking at about AC 14-15, so the Swashbuckler will only be needing a 7 or 8 to hit, not that difficult really.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks for the comments and the suggestions...especially taking 20 on hide checks.....:smallredface:

Malak'ai pegged it: the halfling has a +9 to attack, +7/+7 with TWF, and the archers did have a 15 AC. So, yeah, the math was generally in his favor.

And the bandits definitely weren't using anything remotely like good tactics--partly because I didn't have time to plan it out, and partly because I wanted to play them as desperados, a grubby little band that was used to preying on lost travelers or the occasional local hunter.

The first swordsman, the leader, was actually goaded to attack by the halfling, thanks to a nice touch of RP on the player's part. As for the second swordsman, he did make a strong first attack on the cleric, and might have finished her if the bard hadn't given her a few moments of invisibility.

I'll see if I can nudge the next encounter up a little, without making too much of the halfling. Any suggestions for what that next encounter should be?

[eggs]

Plinking enemies spread more than 10ft apart, mobile enemies that don't permit full attacks and monsters that can make multiple attacks against creatures that come into range will all tone a TWFer down without just disabling it the way a construct/undead/plant/flying monster would.

[IdleMuse]

Just checking, because I know many groups that have made this mistake; you are rolling to confirm criticals, right? Not just automatically doing double damage or whatever?

[Palanan]

I've...never actually heard of that before. At my table, we definitely roll to confirm criticals, players and DM alike.

[Malak'ai]

Just checking, because I know many groups that have made this mistake; you are rolling to confirm criticals, right? Not just automatically doing double damage or whatever?


I've...never actually heard of that before. At my table, we definitely roll to confirm criticals, players and DM alike.

I've played in games like that and while it seems cool to start with, but after a while it looses the excitement of getting crits (unless your a critfisher).

My table always roll as well, sometimes it's just a really well placed hit others you've managed to extract the opponents kidney through his nostril...

[Belril Duskwalk]

Combative Halfling, Two Weapon Fighter, Supremely Lethal against Mooks...
I have found the reason for this event. Clearly what has happened is that your Halfling Swashbuckler suddenly reached out across the multiverse and briefly channeled the spirit of Belkar Bitterleaf. Assuming this Halfling does not suddenly manifest KiloNazi grade Evil it is unlikely this will become a common occurrence.

Seriously though, I think this was a mix of an inadequately prepared ambush (any ambush that doesn't get a surprise round probably wasn't prepared well enough), a lucky halfling and an unlucky group of bandits.

[pyromanser244]

do you want the next encounter to be another ambush? you probably don't want to be too repetitive. well unless you're deliberately lulling them into false assumptions.:smallbiggrin:

if you are going with another staged battlefield then add in some traps. dead fall traps, spike traps, wire traps, and poison traps are all very doable in a forested setting. and if you've got the time for 20 on hide then you've got time for some surprises.:smallamused:

beyond that, make it harder to reach the squishy ranged enemies. that alone could make for more interesting encounters.

[Psyren]

Just checking, because I know many groups that have made this mistake; you are rolling to confirm criticals, right? Not just automatically doing double damage or whatever?

Given the low AC of the enemies, it doesn't seem like it'd have made much difference either way.

[GeriSch]

I think the calculator you used is wrong, 5 first-level opponents should be a standard encounter for a 4th lvl party, it would only be a bit dangerous if the ambushers had terrain advantages (like the party is in a hollowed way in the forest and the archers shoot them from above, where most of the party can't get to easily).

gr,
Geri

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, thanks for the comments and the suggestions...especially taking 20 on hide checks.....:smallredface:

Malak'ai pegged it: the halfling has a +9 to attack, +7/+7 with TWF, and the archers did have a 15 AC. So, yeah, the math was generally in his favor.

And the bandits definitely weren't using anything remotely like good tactics--partly because I didn't have time to plan it out, and partly because I wanted to play them as desperados, a grubby little band that was used to preying on lost travelers or the occasional local hunter.

The first swordsman, the leader, was actually goaded to attack by the halfling, thanks to a nice touch of RP on the player's part. As for the second swordsman, he did make a strong first attack on the cleric, and might have finished her if the bard hadn't given her a few moments of invisibility.

I'll see if I can nudge the next encounter up a little, without making too much of the halfling. Any suggestions for what that next encounter should be?

Strictly speaking, I don't think you can take 20 on hide (or any other skill check that's an opposed check)

Terrain can make a huge difference at low levels. Even something as simple as a relatively low ridge could be enormous.

If the archers had been on a ridge 50ft long and 10ft high with the face toward the path steep enough to require a climb-check instead of just extra movement cost, that encounter would've probably've gone a lot differently.

Terrain can become less of an element as you reach mid and high level, but it never becomes completely tactically irrelavent.

[juicycaboose]

I think the calculator you used is wrong, 5 first-level opponents should be a standard encounter for a 4th lvl party, it would only be a bit dangerous if the ambushers had terrain advantages (like the party is in a hollowed way in the forest and the archers shoot them from above, where most of the party can't get to easily).

gr,
Geri

The party in question only has 3 characters in it rather than 4 though

[Diarmuid]

Strictly speaking, I don't think you can take 20 on hide (or any other skill check that's an opposed check)

Terrain can make a huge difference at low levels. Even something as simple as a relatively low ridge could be enormous.

If the archers had been on a ridge 50ft long and 10ft high with the face toward the path steep enough to require a climb-check instead of just extra movement cost, that encounter would've probably've gone a lot differently.

Terrain can become less of an element as you reach mid and high level, but it never becomes completely tactically irrelavent.

What rules are you referring to fit inability to take 20 on opposed checks? As long as you aren't distracted/threatened and have the 2 minutes to devote to the effort, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to.

[only1doug]

In yesterday's game session, the halfling swashbuckler rolled through a wilderness ambush with virtually no help from the rest of the party. He took down five bandits with superlative ease, and I'm still trying to work out exactly what happened. I'm not sure whether I miscalibrated something, or if the dice were just very good to him.

The party had finished the session's main encounter sooner than expected, so I threw in an ambush for flavor and fun. I hastily worked up a band of first-level fighters (two swordsmen, three archers) and dropped them along the party's route. All three party members were fourth level. As for what happened next....


First Contact

Despite their decent hide checks (in the 16-20 range), the swashbuckler spotted all five bandits at his first opportunity. Seeing they'd been made, the bandit leader won initiative and headed straight for the swashbuckler, raising his sword--

--and I rolled a 7 on his attack.

And the halfling walks up and crits him. Down in one.

Long-Distance Love

The archers went next, and the second archer critted the halfling right back, almost killing him outright. But the halfling plowed on towards the third archer, burning a couple charges from his healing belt on the way.

Meanwhile, the cleric cast Local Tremor, which she'd been saving for a terrestrial encounter--and the bandit she'd targeted very handily made his reflex save. Immediately afterwards the cleric and the bard both came in for some hurt, so the halfling was on his own.

Knife Fight

...Which was fine with him. The third archer got off a single shot at the grim little halfling churning up the slope at him...and missed, allowing the halfling to deliver some TWF at close range. The archer made the mistake of trying to join the knife fight, and the next round the halfling takes him down to 1 hp, while an arrow clatters uselessly off the rocks behind him.

Meanwhile there's angry, confused shouting from downslope; first the bard and then the cleric have gone invisible, and the remaining swordsman and one of the archers are trying to find them, with another local tremor and another easily-made reflex save. (Why can't they attack half as well as they keep their balance?)

Backstabbity

The second archer draws a bead on the halfling, now locked in combat, and manages to shoot his colleague in the back instead.

Now the halfling activates a drow token with Expeditious Retreat, flashes across the intervening space and deals with the second archer: one expeditious crit and he's down.

Meanwhile the second swordsman gives up searching for the vanished party members and starts closing on the halfling--and a wolf snaps its jaws around his neck from behind. (Cleric/druid, I should have mentioned.) The swordsman flings it off and kills it with one blow--but now the halfling has come up behind him and it's backstabbin' time again.

Is It Too Late To Say I'm Sorry?

The final bandit, the last archer, takes a couple of panicky point-blank shots at the halfling and misses both times, thanks to my rolling a 3 and something else equally unhelpful. A handy five-foot step saves the archer for a mere moment, and then the halfling takes him down as well. After the near-fatal crit in the second round, he hasn't been touched since.


So What Happened?

According to the d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), five CR 1 opponents facing three 4th-level PCS should be Very Difficult. It certainly was for the cleric and the bard, who were both fairly seriously wounded, and they managed to have very little effect in combat. (At one point the cleric used Close Wounds on the halfling, but her local tremors were almost useless.)

Thus, the halfling was very nearly on his own against the bandits, which according to the Encounter Calculator should have been an Overpowering fight. Am I missing something essential? This was a completely on-the-fly encounter, but I expected the bandits to be something more of a challenge.

So, was the halfling swashbuckler just lucky this time around? Or should I plan to kick up the next encounter with something much tougher?
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5 CR 1 opponents is a CR ~3 encounter, this should be relatively easy for a ECL4 party but it actually sounds like the party struggled a bit. Several party members (including the swashbuckler) nearly died from their wounds.

Low level D&D gameplay can be like playing rocket tag, whoever hits first gets to live.

Last night I played Dnd (the previous session 3 characters from our party had explored some tunnels, found some ogres, died within 3 rounds) this session 3 characters from our party went looking for the missing people, found some ogres, killed them within 3 rounds. - Rocket Tag, you are it.

[Jarveiyan]

What rules are you referring to fit inability to take 20 on opposed checks? As long as you aren't distracted/threatened and have the 2 minutes to devote to the effort, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to.

If there is a chance of failure you can't take 20(because it's assumed to get to that 20 you have failed at least half the rolls, and you don't know if you've succeeded or failed until the party has a chance to see you - so how do you know to keep trying until it's too late?).

[Kelb_Panthera]

What rules are you referring to fit inability to take 20 on opposed checks? As long as you aren't distracted/threatened and have the 2 minutes to devote to the effort, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to.


If there is a chance of failure you can't take 20(because it's assumed to get to that 20 you have failed at least half the rolls, and you don't know if you've succeeded or failed until the party has a chance to see you - so how do you know to keep trying until it's too late?).

There was a whole discussion on this not so long ago. I'll look it up and post the thread title in a minute. What Jarveiyan said is basically what it boils down to though.

There was never a concensus on which interpretation was the right one, but that's largely because people have different interpretations of what "a chance of failure" is.

Edit: Found it. The thread title was "Taking 20" I'd link, but my sig explains why that's difficult.