From the Codex: Hit Dice, Creature Level, and Associated Bonuses [PEACH!]

[Ziegander]

Since this has since been buried in the Codex discussion posts, and since it is pretty important rules material, I reposted it in its own thread to give it the exposure it needs. Does this work? Are there unseen and unpleasant ramifications? Let me know what you think!

New Rules:

Hit Dice, Creature Level, and Assorted Bonuses
HD no longer carries any special weight as far as a creature's basic chassis, or Effective Character Level for that matter. A creature can have 30 HD and still be a 1st level Character, theoretically speaking. Total HD has no effect on a creature's Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, or Skill Points per level.

Creature Level is the better indication of a creature's basic chassis, and combined with character class (or racial class, as the case may be), gives a creature it's basic chassis bonuses.

For example, an Ogre is a 3rd level creature with "Medium" Base Attack Bonus (+3/4 per levels), "Good" Base Fort Bonus (+2 at 1st level + 1/2 levels), "Poor" Base Ref Bonus (+1/3 levels), "Poor" Base Will Bonus (+1/3 levels), and "Poor" Skill Points Per Level (2 + Int per level). It has 4 HD, 3 of which were obtained through its racial class, the fourth because of its Toughness feat. Its total HD have no effect on its Creature Level or its base bonuses or skill points.

Another example (this one with changes made because of the new rules): a Tendriculos is a 6th level creature with 8 HD (6 of which were obtained through its racial class, the last two because of its Toughness feats), and "Poor" BAB, "Medium" Fort, "Poor" Ref, "Poor" Will, and "Poor" Skill Points Per Level. This gives it a Base Attack Bonus of +3, a Base Fort Bonus of +3, a Base Reflex Bonus of +2, a Base Will Bonus of +2, and 6 skill points (-4 Int modifier, minimum 1 skill point per level).

New Feat:

Toughness
Prerequisites: Con 13
Benefit: Choose one size of Hit Dice you possess. You gain an extra Hit Dice of that size. Also, you gain extra Hit Points equal to the number of Hit Dice you possess (including the extra one you gained through this feat).
Normal: A creature automatically gains this feat as a bonus feat once for each size over Medium it is.
Special: You may take this feat any number of times.


~~~

The monster types/subtypes rules would need to be changed quite a bit, especially cosmetically, to fit these new rules, but I think the changes will make the game a lot more friendly to martial-type characters in the end. It also helps a DM to design monsters and encounters more easily, as these rules can serve as a replacement for Challenge Rating (or at least as as good guide to better inform encounter CR). A monster's Creature Level will balance out its core bonuses, and its HP doesn't matter as much. Now Undead and Constructs don't necessarily need to have inflated HD to be a threat, and big baddies with lots of HP aren't necessarily epic level Fighters either! Yay?

[Ziegander]

Give this one more try for feedback. PLEASE evaluate these new rules and how they interact with the rest of D&D 3.5 as a whole.

[God Imperror]

Few questions...

What do you try to accomplish?

How does this interact with effects that make creatures larger temporarily, such as enlarge person?

Are you sure that you know how monster classes work in base D&D? Other than the toughness feat I don't see any difference to a normal D&D game.

[Just to Browse]

What do you try to accomplish?This allows for properly-scaling saves while keeping a semblance of D&D's inflation through the use of feats, so it's easy to reconstruct a high-HP monster without pulling HP out of your butt.


Are you sure that you know how monster classes work in base D&D? Other than the toughness feat I don't see any difference to a normal D&D game.Wat? A class gives you 1 HD/level. Now you can take toughness and get extra HD, but it doesn't count as quasi-class levels so the HP inflation occurs without adversely affected save, BAB, or weird CR inflation. As far as monster classes, you'll notice that WotC monster classes suck, and that homebrewed monster classes will not result in the huge HP necessary from all of those NPC monster you see in the Monster Manual. This fixes the problem, and can be applied with homebrewed monster classes to get classes that don't suck and give large amounts of HP.

Zeigander, this seems like it would result in a lot of HP. If a barbarian takes this, they get 6 + lvl HP. 7-10 HP is a lot at levels 1-4. This could also make HD-cap spells like sleep wonky, but those are bad spells anyways.

[God Imperror]

This allows for properly-scaling saves while keeping a semblance of D&D's inflation through the use of feats, so it's easy to reconstruct a high-HP monster without pulling HP out of your butt.

Does it? I mean it says that it doesn't grant save bonuses...


Wat? A class gives you 1 HD/level. Now you can take toughness and get extra HD, but it doesn't count as quasi-class levels so the HP inflation occurs without adversely affected save, BAB, or weird CR inflation. As far as monster classes, you'll notice that WotC monster classes suck, and that homebrewed monster classes will not result in the huge HP necessary from all of those NPC monster you see in the Monster Manual. This fixes the problem, and can be applied with homebrewed monster classes to get classes that don't suck and give large amounts of HP.

Wait a minute... if I am reading this correctly "Total HD has no effect on a creature's Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, or Skill Points per level." So you mean that toughness only grants extra HD that is a random number between 1 and X. And that is a large amount of HP?
Other than messing up with spells such as Holy Word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm) I don't see it as a better effect that the original feat does.

Finally if HD has no effect on things such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses or skill points how do monsters such as tendriculous have base attack bonus, base save bonus or skill points, do they have anything other than HD? If they do how is that different from racial HD as they are now?

If what you intend to achieve is to grant extra health to monsters why limiting it to monster of large size or larger?

[Ziegander]

Just to Browse sees what I'm going for, but God Imperor, you're missing the point. Of course, I was more than a little unclear I suppose.

Using my method, CR and "number of levels in monster class X" will be exactly equal. So, the Terrasque, for example, might still somehow have 48 HD (racial bonus feats, anyone?) but instead of being a CR 20 creature with Base Attack Bonus +48 (over twice what a 20th level PC could have) and a "poor" Base Will Save of +18 (1.5 times what a 20th level PC's "good" Base Will Save would be), the Terrasque is a 20th level creature with 20th level base numbers, lots of hit points, and big ability scores.

I will be rewriting the monster classes (a very small effort, really) to better fit with this paradigm.

[God Imperror]

The main problem was that you were using a term that is not defined (creature level) and at no point you make any mention of challenge rating (though you seem to believe that it was understandable that you were referring to it)

What is the point of having HD then?

How does all this changes interact with LA?

[Ziegander]

What is the point of having HD then?

Because without having HD you don't have hit points. But that's all HD do, under this proposed system, is determine how many hit points a creature has.


How does all this changes interact with LA?

Good question, and I can only answer, at this point, I don't know. It would be something I'd need to fiddle with and look at on a case-by-case basis.

[God Imperror]

HD also interact with other things, for example as I pointed above some spells such as holy word, divine might, sleep... etcetera and several effects are based in HDs to determine a DC. Thus HD doesn't only give hp.

Of course, if you are changing HD to only provide health, my question is why? The next step make a monster class for every monster seems appropriate that way you can drop racial HD which seems to be what you are against.

On the LA thingie, most monsters with high LA have a CR not much higher than their HD thus the LA gets greatly reduced, in some cases out of the monster manual, this might be an acceptable idea, some of its monsters have a really big LA but... in some cases it is probably going to make monsters overpowered.

[Ziegander]

HD also interact with other things, for example as I pointed above some spells such as holy word, divine might, sleep... etcetera and several effects are based in HDs to determine a DC. Thus HD doesn't only give hp.

Many of those things can and should be changed, under this revision, to key off of Creature Level. Some of them will still be fine keyed off of total HD.


Of course, if you are changing HD to only provide health, my question is why?

Because equating Hit Dice, the dice that determine your amount of Hit Points, to overall level was lazy and ultimately created TONS of problems with the game. In my opinion, using my revision and relegating HD to only determining Hit Points, not only makes more sense, but fixes many problems with the game. Seems like a no-brainer at that point.


The next step make a monster class for every monster seems appropriate that way you can drop racial HD which seems to be what you are against.

That's not at all necessary. The existing monster classes for creature types (such as Abberration, Giant, Outsider, and Undead) will be used and altered to work a bit more like character classes, but in no way does this revision necessitate writing actual monster classes for every individual monster. And neither is that a plan of mine.


On the LA thingie, most monsters with high LA have a CR not much higher than their HD thus the LA gets greatly reduced, in some cases out of the monster manual, this might be an acceptable idea, some of its monsters have a really big LA but... in some cases it is probably going to make monsters overpowered.

In short, that's exactly why I said I'd need to evaluate LA on a case-by-case basis. Actually, I think it would be good for our mutual understanding of each other for you to give me a PC playable monster with high LA, and I'll show you how I'd convert it using my Creature Level concept.