(Pathfinder) Non-monk Brawler? The eternal quest...

[Calemyr]

This is a problem I've come up against a lot. In games, I have a fondness for what I like to refer to as "bare knuckle brawlers". No pretty forms, no zen mysticism, no masters referring to you as various types of insect. Just a simple talent for putting fist A into face B with enough force that face B goes through walls C, D, and E. A style born of a different breed of simplicity, the aesthetic of a different ascetic.

I'm trying to create a level 10 Beastmorph Alchemist / level 2 Master Chemyst with a draconic theme. I wanted her primary offense to be unarmed, preferably using the dragon style feats. She's definitely not monk material, however - she believes the sound of one hand clapping is "punch".

Unfortunately, Pathfinder (and D&D in general) has a pathological hatred of anyone knowing how to throw a punch if they didn't grow up in a monastery. There's no option to increase unarmed damage save by the monk class, and most of the unarmed options hinge on the ridiculously overpriced feat of Stunning Fist (+8 BAB?). At level 12, this character has a BAB of +9.

Are there any pointers anyone has for making an effective brawler in Pathfinder? It doesn't have to be particularly powerful (I could go much more broken ways if I wanted power), but it's kinda sad to see such strength backing an optionless 1d3 (1d4 with a cestus)...

[Silus]

First thing that comes to mind is the Unarmed Fighter archetype. Less fiddly bits than a Monk, but a lot more customizability.

[Lemmy]

Well, the Martial Artist archetype for monks is a lot less monk-ish, it has no Ki powers and doesn't even have to be Lawful.

If it still feels too monatery-ish, multiclass with Barbarian (not a bad idea actually, since 5 levels in martial arts make you immune to fatigue! Can you say "Rage Cycle"?) and only costs 2 points of BAB. It's more than compensated by "Exploit Weakness" (also, the the boost to saves and 2 bonus feats, or 3, if you get to 6th level).

Thanks to the Barbarian's Rage and armor proficiency, you won't be as M.A.D., since you don't need that much dexterity or wisdom anymore.

Another simple option is fighting with Gauntlets, it's technically not considered Unarmed Strike, but who cares? You're still punching people in the face!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Martial Artist monk Archetype, maybe multiclass barbarian.

Also, you severely underestimate the discipline of "brawlers". Dedicated warriors, regardless of the weapon they wield, are some of the top athletes in the world. Mixed martial arts requires precision, speed, and mental toughness (which, despite the fact that wisdom is advertised as willpower, is based off constitution, like Concentration).

[Calemyr]

That's kinda what I was afraid of. Having to dip in over here and over there, catastrophically destroying the overall build to gain the ability to throw a punch. (Five levels of barbarian means would mean I can't even get Master Chemyst until afterwards, and it's a pretty major aspect of the character, much less crippling the progress towards better mutagens.)

Those are good ideas for next time I play a character, but it doesn't work for this. I can't take other classes without corrupting the spirit of the character and that blasted Stunning Fist renders anything I try to do with feats meaningless.

So many choices, but nothing that I can actually use.

[icefractal]

Is the DM open to using 3.5 material at all? There's a feat in ToB called "Superior Unarmed Strike" that does pretty much exactly what you want - scaling unarmed damage, without being a Monk.

[Calemyr]

Is the DM open to using 3.5 material at all? There's a feat in ToB called "Superior Unarmed Strike" that does pretty much exactly what you want - scaling unarmed damage, without being a Monk.

I am the DM, actually. I have used that feat before, but I was trying to avoid house-ruling to make the concept viable.

I just find it so strange that the game only has one class (well, one and an archetype) that can fight. I can't be the only one who would want to play a wild-raised child who only knows how to fight feral, or a harmonica-playing bard who uses kicks as his favored offense, or a timid alchemist who has taken enough self-defense courses to fend for herself in a fight.

Thanks for the Unarmed Fighter/Martial Artist ideas, though. The UF in particular looks like it would be a lot of fun.

Although, all this searching through the rules gave me a fun idea for a trick: breath attack bomb + delayed bomb + remote bomb: premeditated dragon burp?

[JellyPooga]

Who said anything about needing fancy-pants classes to be a half decent brawler?

Sure, the Monk gets a bunch of stuff free, but simply taking Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack and shoving a heap of points into Strength will make you a decent enough brawler.

Compare a 1st level Fighter to a 1st level Monk; the Monk gets an average of +2 damage on his base damage, whilst the Fighter can take Power Attack and make that up on his static bonus.

With your non-melee-class build, you're not going to be looking at being as good in melee as something better focused for it; that's just the way a class-based system works. If you want to be a brawler, just invest in some of the basic brawler feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Grapple) and have done.

[Drelua]

First thing that comes to mind is the Unarmed Fighter archetype. Less fiddly bits than a Monk, but a lot more customizability.

Really? The first thing that came to mind for me was the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler) Fighter Archetype. Unarmed Fighter is really only good for a one or two level dip, and a Brawler's unarmed damage is actually comparable to that of a Monk with the extra +2 they get from weapon training. You might actually be doing more damage with a Monk's Robe and Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling), even if you only take three levels of it.

[Drelua]

First thing that comes to mind is the Unarmed Fighter archetype. Less fiddly bits than a Monk, but a lot more customizability.

Really? The first thing that came to mind for me was the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler) Fighter Archetype. Unarmed Fighter is really only good for a one or two level dip, and a Brawler's unarmed damage is actually comparable to that of a Monk with the extra +2 they get from weapon training. You might actually be doing more damage with a Monk's Robe and Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling), even if you only take three levels of it.

[Calemyr]

Who said anything about needing fancy-pants classes to be a half decent brawler?

Sure, the Monk gets a bunch of stuff free, but simply taking Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack and shoving a heap of points into Strength will make you a decent enough brawler.

Compare a 1st level Fighter to a 1st level Monk; the Monk gets an average of +2 damage on his base damage, whilst the Fighter can take Power Attack and make that up on his static bonus.

With your non-melee-class build, you're not going to be looking at being as good in melee as something better focused for it; that's just the way a class-based system works. If you want to be a brawler, just invest in some of the basic brawler feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Grapple) and have done.

That's a handy perspective to keep in mind. It's what I'm doing in this case, though - ridiculous strength to make up for pitiful base damage. I didn't consider Power Attack, however.

The catch with the alchemist, though, is that she isn't non-melee. She's very melee-focused, she just delegates it to her draconic persona that relishes the concept (who between the form's large size and greater mutagen turns her high strength into a ridiculous strength). I can't afford a level of monk to get Stunning Fist, however, so I can't get the feat until level 11 - which really hinders her access to unarmed feats, such as Dragon Ferocity.

[Blyte]

I had a barbarian/martial artist/fighter(brawler) overruner whose martial arts was "F_ _ _ Yu"

It was comprised mainly of rugby maneuvers, head butting, stomping and kicks to the groin. It was quite effective.

-Get 6 Barbarian for relentless onslaught, overbearing onslaught, and strength surge.
-Dip 1 Monk(martial artist) for unarmed strike, greater overrun and elephant stomp.
-Then go back to Barbarian or start down 3 levels of brawler for more feats and the +1/+3 in the close weapon group.

...

as a monk with DR, "Vern", my barbarian was the best bar fighter I've ever had. His ability to KO and knock over everyone in a tavern was second to none.

[grarrrg]

I can't be the only one who would want to play a wild-raised child who only knows how to fight feral

....Am I the only one who noticed that Master Chymist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen) has FERAL MUTAGEN as a Pre-Req?
Yeah, it's technically not 'unarmed', but it's easy enough to handwave.

Alchemist's can cast Enlarge Person for STR and Size boosting. Master Chymist can go Large during Mutation (although not until effective level 16).

There is also Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) which lets you count Natural Attacks as unarmed strikes to make use of other feats and such.

Speaking of Unarmed feats...
Belier's Bite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/belier-s-bite-combat), Unarmed Strikes do +1d4 Bleed damage.
Hamatulatsu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hamatulatsu-combat) lets your Unarmed count as Bludgeon or Piercing, and inflicts Sickened/Staggered on you opponent on a Critical Piercing hit.

The Vivisectionist Archetype can combine with Beastmorph, you lose Bombs, but gain Sneak Attack, this opens up a LOT of nice feats:
Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) Bludgeoning, Nonlethal Sneak Attacks get +2 Damage per Sneak Die
Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) Bludgeoning, Nonlethal attacks vs. Flat-Footed opponents get DOUBLE Sneak Dice (this also doubles the bonus from Sap Adept)
Knockout Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/knockout-artist) Unarmed, Nonlethal vs. opponent denied DEX-to-AC grants +1 damage per Sneak Die
A Nonlethal Unarmed hit potentially qualifies for all 3 in the same attack. If all 3 hit you would do 2d6+6 for every 1d6 Sneak die you actually have!

[StreamOfTheSky]

And...forums just ate a lengthy post...

Ok, summary!

Monk's 2d10 base damage averages 11. Fighter's 1d3 unarmed w/ weapon training, gloves of dueling, and greater weapon spec. averages 9.5 with a +6 bonus to hit over monk, as well. Plus monk is more MAD.

Base damage is not very important.

Brawler archetype makes the comparison even better.

Brawling (http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1123-116.jpg) armor enhancement is only a +1 armor bonus for untyped +2 to unarmed attack/damage and grapple and strict RAW cannot be applied to bracers of armor b/c it's not "light armor," so monk is shut out from benefitting.

In conclusion: no need to be concerned, monks suck at everything in PF, fighter can do the job just fine, as can re-fluffed viv. beastmorph alchemist or synthesist summoner.

Sorry if this all comes off as curt, but I just lost like 25 minutes of typing and don't feel like typing it all back out... :smallfrown:

[Novawurmson]

How do you feel about 3rd Party material? Because the Deadly Fist Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is probably the best unarmed archetype printed. Yes, it gives a scaling bonus to unarmed strikes that tops off at +9. On a full BAB chassis. Instead of getting Throw Mind Blade, you basically get a little hadouken.

[BRC]

I've got a homebrew brawler (See Sig) that is pretty fun. It's 3.5, but it's built something like a PF class anyway, if your DM approves it.

[ShurikVch]

Check there. Maybe find something interesting. [3.X] Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

How about ToB stuff? If you don't want unarmed swordsage, maybe warblade will do better?

Old Dragon (#295) PrC "Fierce Grappler". Five levels, D10, full BAB. Slightly increased unarmed damage - 1d4 at 1st, 1d6 at 4th.

Do you think about channeling spells or powers troth your punches? Your unarmed strikes can get Boneblasting effectiveness! Wracking Touch will become Wracking Punch, Shocking Grasp - Shocking Grapple and so on... Channel combination of Plane Shift and Gate: "I punched him to the Hell and back!"

Finally, if your ever have chance to get divine rank, choose SDA "Irresistible Blows" with unarmed strike.