Falling vs. Flying Combat

[Allyzedl]

So my character is on a flying mount that has a flying speed of 100. A stranger jumps onto my mount with me, and then I command the mount to fly straight up into the air. We are now 300 ft. off the ground.

The stranger jumps off the flying mount, falling to the ground.

I want to open up a discussion about combat in this situation. I would think that me on my flying mount would still move faster than a falling halfling and would thus be able to fight it as it falls.

Also, flying creatures can fly at x2 speed while moving downward.

I am just curious about what others think about the situation.

Would I be able to fly at the same speed as the falling halfling? Then would I be able to fight it? If so what benefits/penalties would apply to each person?

[Andreaz]

Keeping it simple, no. You can only catch up to the halfling if the doubled flight speed matches or exceeds his falling speed.

If you want to add complexity, wing/sail based air propulsion won't work, but helixes and reaction engines will. By then speed doesn't double for falling anymore, it becomes free fall + speed.

Or you just "turn off flight" and use it to adjust your position as you fight. I'd keep it simple and stick to my first statement.

[Diarmuid]

At best, you'd get attacks of opportunity when the other guy leaves your threatened square.

I thought I saw that characters fall at a speed of 500' per round (but I can currenty not find anything official on the matter), so on that other person's turn he's going to use an action to jump off, and then fall all the way to the ground all on his turn. There is no time in the intiative for you to continue fighting him while falling. The only possible option would be if you had a charge readied and you could charge him when he jumps off, but I'm guessing that's not likely the case.

[Allyzedl]

Well, you can run as a full round action for flying movement. Tripling its speed to 300 ft. then it would again double for downward movement. Its downward flying speed with a full round run action would be 600 ft.

[laeZ1]

In my game, people fall at the rate of 9.8ft/sec/sec. (The gravity of my world is equal to that of earth). One combat round lasts six seconds.
let's do math!

first second of the round, halfling falls 9.8 feet
second second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 19.6 feet,
third second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 29.4 feet
fourth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 39.2
fifth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 49.0
sixth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 58.8

9.8+19.6+29.4+39.2+49.0+58.8= 205.8 ft/round

then of course, it gets faster, til it hit's halfling maximum velocity.

[Andreaz]

9,8 meters, son, not feet.
Also note that humans cap at around 56m/s. After that it's all 56m/s

[Curmudgeon]

Check the 3.5 FAQ. The author did a thorough job of working through the falling mechanics for an ordinary person. You fall about 500' in the first round, and 1200' each round thereafter.

[darni]

In my game, people fall at the rate of 9.8ft/sec/sec. (The gravity of my world is equal to that of earth). One combat round lasts six seconds.
let's do math!

first second of the round, halfling falls 9.8 feet
second second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 19.6 feet,
third second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 29.4 feet
fourth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 39.2
fifth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 49.0
sixth second of the round, halfling falls an aditional 58.8

9.8+19.6+29.4+39.2+49.0+58.8= 205.8 ft/round

then of course, it gets faster, til it hit's halfling maximum velocity.

Besides the meter/feet mixup, your addition is somewhat crude math because you're doing this in discrete steps: the first second starts at 0 m/s and ends up at 9.8m/s, so it will cover less than 9.8m (that's the distance it would cover going continuously at 9.8m/s without accelerating, instead of starting from a fixed point).

You have to calculate the integral, or more easily, use wolfram alpha. Like this. (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=free+fall+500ft)

That link shows that 500ft are covered in 5.6 seconds (frictionless), so it's reasonable to say 500ft/round, as I think some rules already say (I've seen this in PF, don't remember where they are in 3.5)

[Belril Duskwalk]

Considering that the math apparently works out to the halfling falling around 500 feet in the first 6 seconds, it will probably take around 4 seconds for the halfling to fall all of the 300 feet in the air that you were when he jumped. So no, if that halfling is in a free-fall I don't see you realistically being able to do much of anything before he hits the ground.
A few related notes:
1) That halfling is either suicidal, or it has a plan.
2) If this halfling has a plan, he likely has means of prolonging his decent. In which case he'd better be activating it really fast (see above 4 seconds till landfall)
3) If he does have featherfall, or some means of flight, by all means, fight him on the way down. If not... I suspect the (approximately) 19d6 damage will put a rather severe (if not fatal) dent in his health even if he is a somewhat high level NPC.

Related Big Bang Theory quote: "Oh Gravity, truly thou art a heartless b*****."

[Kelb_Panthera]

There actually is a RAW rule for falling speeds, it's just in a terribly un-intuitive place. It's in the DMG on page 148 under subjective directional gravity. The paragraph states plainly that after picking a direction for down, creatures are subjected to gravity equal to that of the material plane. It further says that a creature falls 150ft in the first round and 300ft every round thereafter.

In your example, you could chase the falling enemy for one round but sometime during his second turn he hits the ground.

[JKTrickster]

Is there any reason why you want to fight him while he's falling? I mean why can't you just reach the ground first and wait for him to "catch up"? :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

There actually is a RAW rule for falling speeds, it's just in a terribly un-intuitive place. It's in the DMG on page 148 under subjective directional gravity. The paragraph states plainly that after picking a direction for down, creatures are subjected to gravity equal to that of the material plane. It further says that a creature falls 150ft in the first round and 300ft every round thereafter.

In your example, you could chase the falling enemy for one round but sometime during his second turn he hits the ground.

However, those speeds are the same as listed in Moving in Three Dimensions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#minimumForwardSpeed) for flying creatures, which fits the description of this mode of subjective gravity movement as "'flying'". I believe that speed therefore only applies to creatures that are flying in some fashion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

However, those speeds are the same as listed in Moving in Three Dimensions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#minimumForwardSpeed) for flying creatures, which fits the description of this mode of subjective gravity movement as "'flying'". I believe that speed therefore only applies to creatures that are flying in some fashion.

I disagree, I think that the fact that the number is the same regardless of your ability to fly, or lack there of, that it simply represents 1g on the material plane. This is why it's listed in the moving in 3 dimensions section under a stall. A stalled creature isn't flying anymore, he's just plain falling.

Besides, it's as close to RAW as you can get really, and the physics in question if you choose not to use these convenient numbers is no small thing to calculate. When you're talking about a fall that's reaching terminal velocity aerodynamics become too big a factor to ignore.

I'm sure somebody's done it, but if you can't find it you have to determine drag and fold it into the acceleration calculations. Do you know how many factors go into determining drag, even assuming it's uniformly constant the world over (which it isn't)?

I might try to work those calculations out sometime, after I complete the other projects I've started.

[Curmudgeon]

Check the 3.5 FAQ. The author did a thorough job of working through the falling mechanics for an ordinary person. You fall about 500' in the first round, and 1200' each round thereafter.

... the physics in question if you choose not to use these convenient numbers is no small thing to calculate. When you're talking about a fall that's reaching terminal velocity aerodynamics become too big a factor to ignore.

I'm sure somebody's done it, but if you can't find it you have to determine drag and fold it into the acceleration calculations.
As I noted, this has already been done. You can download the 3.5 FAQ from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

[TuggyNE]

I disagree, I think that the fact that the number is the same regardless of your ability to fly, or lack there of, that it simply represents 1g on the material plane. This is why it's listed in the moving in 3 dimensions section under a stall. A stalled creature isn't flying anymore, he's just plain falling.

Besides, it's as close to RAW as you can get really, and the physics in question if you choose not to use these convenient numbers is no small thing to calculate. When you're talking about a fall that's reaching terminal velocity aerodynamics become too big a factor to ignore.

Curmudgeon's previously cited figures are, I believe, correct for humanoid free-falling (by RAW and by math). However, a flying creature that stalls logically falls somewhat slower, due to combined drag and residual lift from their wings. (Naturally, the flat 150/300 per round seems a little forced, as differently sized creatures might fall at vastly different speeds, but oh well!)

[Kelb_Panthera]

As I noted, this has already been done. You can download the 3.5 FAQ from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

I can't download things on this machine. Can I get a quote for the relevant portion?