Making a "Control Blaster" in PF. Help?

[Tokuhara]

This goes against everything said here, but I like blasting sometimes. Nothing has the same feel as a spell doing insanely high damage. But I know Control is King, so is there a happy middle ground?

So here's my challenge, Playground:

Build me an optimized 1-20 25 point buy "Control Blaster"

Here's the rules:

Anything Paizo on PFSRD
Cannot be a pure control or pure blaster, but a happy medium
No questionable rules abuse
Mid-Optimized. Not Batman/Pun-Pun, but not derpy Sorcerer with Power Attack and Iron Will

Thank you guys very much

[jmelesky]

Toppling Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic)!

Not just for Magic Missile, this works on any force effect, including Force Punch and Twilight Knife (which, granted, might not be a great spell for a controller wizard).

[jaybird]

The above. Pick up Magical Lineage to apply a total -1 to your metamagic adjustment on Magic Missile. Trip up to 5 enemies with a level 1 spell! :smallbiggrin:

Explosive Spell Fireballs may also be an option, albeit a less optimal one.

[Karoht]

First and foremost let us remember that status effects are typically considered control effects, but are not the ONLY control effects. Anything that gets an enemy to go where you want them to go, or fight a specific way, is a control spell.

I think the spell I'm thinking of is called Ash Cloud? 3rd Level spell.
XD6 damage, large area of effect, area affected is also treated as rough terrain. Rough terrain prevents charging, and slows movement to half. Handy handy control for non-flyers.

Isn't there a Metamagic effect that can be added to various spells? It can add effects like Nausiate or Stun or Daze or something?

Sirroco-XD6 Damage, can knock enemies prone, great for countering flyers. Also it has a status effect, though I forget what it is. But a pair of these back to back can leave a pack of enemies essentially out of the fight, assuming they live.

Any of the Fog Spells + Cloudkill. Some of the fog spells are low level, so they are decent candidates for Quicken Spell or a Rod of Quicken.
Quicken a Fog Spell (or even a Silent Image illusion of a fog) and then cast Cloudkill in that area. Enemies can't see where they are, can't see which way is out. Stinking Cloud + Cloudkill is typically lethal.

Aqueous Orb-One of my absolute favorite control spells. You control it on your move action (so you can move it on your move action and fireball whoever it doesn't pick up with your standard action), it lasts rounds per level, SR=no, reflex save to avoid. Fail the reflex save and the enemy is picked up, and moves with the orb. They get a new reflex save every round to break out, and it can pick up 4 medium creatures or 1 large creature. They also take non-lethal damage while in the Orb, which isn't a big deal. But, this spell is awesome for positioning enemies. Say you want to place a bad guy next to a wall so that your dungeon-crasher barbarian friend can smash him into a wall? Aqueous Orb can do that.
Or hey, you've got a Fog Spell that you were using to block line of sight on a caster to protect your party? And the caster just walked out of the fog? Pick him up, roll him back into the fog. What casters have good reflex saves anyway?
And if you're feeling particularly saucy or just plain cruel, roll bad guys into traps, into pits, off cliffs, out windows, or into lockable rooms like jail cells. Our druid uses this spell to roll badguys across patches of Spike Growth and Spike Stones, and at upwards of 1D8 + X per 5ft that is a rather painful and dirty tactic, it may get a book thrown at you. Heck, roll ranged attackers around corners to break line of sight and force them to waste a move action or two just to line up a shot again.
This spell combo's up amazingly well with Force Punch.
And yes. You get to play Katamari with enemies. What isn't to love?

[Psyren]

^ Seconding Aqueous Orb, it's a fantastic spell.

[jmelesky]

I think the spell I'm thinking of is called Ash Cloud? 3rd Level spell.
XD6 damage, large area of effect, area affected is also treated as rough terrain. Rough terrain prevents charging, and slows movement to half. Handy handy control for non-flyers.

There's Ash Storm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ash-storm), but that doesn't do damage.


Isn't there a Metamagic effect that can be added to various spells? It can add effects like Nausiate or Stun or Daze or something?

There are several metamagic feats you might be thinking of. There's Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic), which does what it says on the tin. Then you've got a few element-specific feats, like Rime Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/rime-spell-metamagic), which works on cold spells and entangles targets, or Concussive Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/concussive-spell-metamagic), which works on sonic spells and gives a general debuff.


Sirroco-XD6 Damage, can knock enemies prone, great for countering flyers. Also it has a status effect, though I forget what it is.

4d6 damage +1/level, and the status is fatigued or exhausted (if they're already fatigued).

I'm not sure debuffs and control are the same thing. Entangled is both a control and debuff effect, because it limits movement, and dazed is definitely control because it limits actions. But things like fatigued or deafened or whatnot are really in the debuff realm.

[Tokuhara]

To clarify:

I want to be nuke targets while shutting down their actions. I want to do oodles of dX while the target(s) is(are) losing multiple actions, allowing the party to do their thing.

My views of "Crowd Control":

The target must either lose actions or be debuffed to the point of uselessness (ie: Negative Levels, Ability Score damage, etc.). If both can be done, the party will be better off for it

My view of "Blasting":

Most damage possible. If you can kill it faster than it can kill you, you did your job. Fire, Cold, Shock, Acid, Sonic, and Force are toys you can play with.

And for the sake of fitting it into the group, here's the party:

A homebrew Stealth/Melee Class
A Rogue
A Ninja
An Aasimar Paladin
A Centaur Bard

So yes, the party is missing a full caster, and I want to shine. Even if I wasn't a blaster, I'd want to be a full caster just due to my play style (I'm deemed the "Best Druid/Wizard player" in the group). I'm a player who abused Buffed Wildshaping and Familiar Dualcasting, so if you guys can push the envelope of what a Blaster can do (by blending Blaster with Debuffer and Controller), I'd be happy

[Karoht]

Denied actions or denied combat options are pretty much the bread and butter of control.

Bestow Curse. People tend to discount it quickly. Fail the save though, and you get a choice of options. Neg on attacks, impact to abilities, or 50% to even get an action that round, and even if they do get an action, it is a move OR standard action, not both.
If I recall correctly there is another debuff that gets the same result. Exausted I think? If you can pull off such a debuff in an AoE, you're laughing.

[Tokuhara]

Denied actions or denied combat options are pretty much the bread and butter of control.

Bestow Curse. People tend to discount it quickly. Fail the save though, and you get a choice of options. Neg on attacks, impact to abilities, or 50% to even get an action that round, and even if they do get an action, it is a move OR standard action, not both.
If I recall correctly there is another debuff that gets the same result. Exausted I think? If you can pull off such a debuff in an AoE, you're laughing.

I admit, those two are amazing spells. However, neither do damage. I know I'm picking nicks, but I want to build a Blaster/Debuffer/Controller hybrid who can preform all three tasks well, not specialize in one of the three

[Karoht]

I admit, those two are amazing spells. However, neither do damage. I know I'm picking nicks, but I want to build a Blaster/Debuffer/Controller hybrid who can preform all three tasks well, not specialize in one of the threeHmmm. I take it what you are mostly looking for then, is basically fireball + [control effect] or fireball + [debilitating effect] in a nutshell yes? Hmmm...

Phantasmal Terrain + Create Pit (or use an existing pitfall)
It can and will cause damage, it can and will prevent/delay action.
Doesn't work on flyers, requires some prep.

Reverse Gravity
No save, prevent/delay action, can cause damage, doesn't necessarily work on flyers. Probably requires some prep.

Symbol of [blank] + Explosive Runes
Depending on implimentation, one can produce damage, and have the Symbol be triggered by the Explosive Rune going off. Status effect + major debuffs, typically resulting in prevent/delay action. Expensive though, minor prep.


Also, is there a reason why one can not cast a control spell on one action, and a damage on another? Does it necessarily have to be one action? Most of your options, outside certain debuff effect metamagic isn't going to allow you to debuff and hurt something.

You could also create your own spells and combo together some damage and control effects. Magic Missile + Force Punch (and that metamagic feat on top) would be hilarious. Magic Missile + Bestow Curse could work rather well.

Isn't there a metamagic feat that adds entangled to some spells?


Also, quite a few battlefield control spells can fit onto wands, and a familiar with UMD can use them. Since some of them don't really scale with level or primary casting ability, they tend to be good for wands. Your familiar does all the control work, you do all the blasty work. Sure, your wand DC's might not be all that great (unless you make them yourself, which could get expensive), but you can make up for that by having the familiar spam them.

[Tokuhara]

hence my point of usage. I just want a build

[Doorhandle]

If you're blasting you should also concider intensified spell, as it allows you to push past the normal damage cap for a spell. 15d6 fireball damage anyone

Edit: the create pit series of spells is pretty amazing. Drop an acid pit, laugh as your foes languish helplessly in acid, then drop fireballs down untill they die. Or cloud kill. Enough cloud kill will **** over anything not immune to poison.

Also, some buffs can help control. A large fighter has a much larger range for a.o.es.

[grarrrg]

No one has mentioned Boneshatter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/) yet (probably cause of Splat-book). 4th level S/W spell, deals up to 15d6 damage and Exhaustion for 1 minute. If it makes a Fort save, then half damage and Fatigued for 1 minute.


hence my point of usage. I just want a build

I'd do Wizard/Witch as they have overall best access to spells.
Samsaran (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran) as race, taking the Alt Race trait to add off-list spells to your list (must still match Arcane/Divine).
Recommend Wizard, as Samsaran's favored bonus is additional spells known, AND it has an INT bonus.

Pathfinder Savant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pathfinder-savant) can likewise get you ANY spell (Arcane/Divine, doesn't matter), at the cost of +1 effective level.

So the build would be Wizard X/Pathfinder Savant 7/Wizard (or other PrC) X
Pick up either the Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) (to make up for lost Caster level) or the Magical Lineage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=13878023) Trait (less Metamagic cost on 1 spell of choice).

For Arcane, we mostly only get the Bard list, but that also means lower level spells for more Metamagic room!
Song of Discord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/song-of-discord). Confusion effects are always fun.
Resonating Word (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/resonating-word). 2 spell level discount from being a Bard spell (level 5 b vs. level 7 s/w).
Ki Shout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/ki-shout). Likewise, discounted from 7 s/w to 5 b.
Deafening Song Bolt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deafening-song-bolt). Deafened is not the best of status effects, but vs. Casters...
Discordant Blast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/discordant-blast). Sonic Damage + Bull Rush.
Polar Midnight. Good thing this in on the Witch list, otherwise it'd be inaccessible (9th level spell)


Metamagic:
Concussive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/concussive-spell-metamagic) spell, gives penalties (Similar to Sickened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Sickened)) if Sonic damage is dealt (i.e. "Save for Half" won't help).
Speaking of which, Sickening Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/sickening-spell-metamagic) does the same, but with any spell, although it gives a potential Save vs. whereas Concussive does not.
Flaring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/flaring-spell-metamagic) Dazzles if Fire/Electricity/Light damage is dealt.
Rime Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/rime-spell-metamagic) Entages if Cold damage is dealt.
Shadow Grasp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/shadow-grasp-metamagic) Entangles with Darkness-type spells, but requires Tenebrous Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/tenebrous-spell-metamagic) and Umbral Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/umbral-spell-metamagic) as Pre-Reqs. They do work nicely together though. Umbral adds a Darkness effect to any spell, and Tenebrous add a Caster level/Save DC bonus when cast in Darkness.
And, as mentioned, Toppling Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic) is quite nice as well.

EDIT: The Magaambyan Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/magaambyan-arcanist) from Paths of Prestige gives a Wizard semi-spontaneous casting, access to Druid spells (once per level, must be 2 levels lower than highest available, etc...), and other handy abilities.

[ericgrau]

Dazing spell metamagic on a multi-targetted magic missile is nice.
Web combos well with flaming sphere.
Create spiked pit does both and combines well with hydraulic push.
Wall of ice does damage to anyone who breaks out.
Selective spell metamagic on fireball is a form of crowd control even though it's all damage.
Fireball also combos well with evard's tentacles.
UMD a big pile of scrolls of gallant inspiration to turn ally misses into hits to deal damage through boosting others. It's well worth the scroll cost.
A ring of the ram is a load of fun to push foes while dealing damage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Another vote for Dazing Spell. It's amazing.

Works best on spells like Ball Lightning, Aqueous Orb, Flaming Sphere, and Snapdragon Fireworks, though. Spells where you can surgically target enemies and get to inflict more daze on new enemies or the same each passing round. Works even better with Persistent Spell feat. Try to go w/ spells that have reflex saves, as the game otherwise is lacking for reflex save-or-lose spells. That said, Dazing Stone Call, Black Tentacles, Hungry Pit, and other battlefield control spells can work nicely, too, against low will save targets (if the spell offers no save against the damage, they get a will save vs. the daze).

[Tokuhara]

So from grarrrg's idea comes this:

Race: Samasaran (Mystic Past Life: Witch; Wizard Favored Class Benefit)
Class: Scrollmaster Wizard 5/PF Savant 7/Magaambyan Arcanist 6

School: Wood (Enhancement bonus to CON/WIS/DEX and a decent slice of Druid's spell list)
Opposed: Metal
Traits: Greater Adept of the Society, Magical Knack (Wizard)
Feats:
1 - Spell Mastery, Scribe Scroll
3 - Magical Aptitude
5 - Scholar, Elemental Spell (This opens up variability)
7 - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane
9 - Concussive Spell
11 - Flaring Spell
13 - Rime Spell
15 - Toppling Spell
17 - Lingering Spell
19 - Quicken Spell
(Note: Willing to shuffle feats around for "optimal" effect)

[grarrrg]

So from grarrrg's idea comes this:

WOO-HOO! I WIN!!


Class: Scrollmaster Wizard 5/PF Savant 7/Magaambyan Arcanist 6

That's only 18 levels. Assume +2 Magaambyan?


7 - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane


A: You need Skill Focus (any knowledge) to take Eldritch Heritage (also 13 Cha).

B: You do NOT get the Arcana of the chosen Bloodline, merely the 1st level Power. So no DC Boost. You can still get a Familiar though, if that was your plan.

[Tokuhara]

WOO-HOO! I WIN!!



That's only 18 levels. Assume +2 Magaambyan?



A: You need Skill Focus (any knowledge) to take Eldritch Heritage (also 13 Cha).

B: You do NOT get the Arcana of the chosen Bloodline, merely the 1st level Power. So no DC Boost. You can still get a Familiar though, if that was your plan.

Yeah. My math was off. I did that late at night.
Crap... Need to squeeze that in somewhere
Yes, I want the familiar

[grarrrg]

Yeah. My math was off. I did that late at night.
Crap... Need to squeeze that in somewhere
Yes, I want the familiar

I haven't fully fleshed it out, but would Witch, with the Winter Witch Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/winter-witch) AND Winter Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/winter-witch) PrC be any better?
You'd lose the Wizard bonus feats, but gain a Familiar anyway, as well as some extra Cold-power Oomph.

The PrC looks... well... Ridiculously good.
It has this ability for starters:

Levels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining a winter witch's spells per day, spells gained at each level, the effect of her hexes and other witch class abilities (including archetype abilities), the abilities of her witch's familiar, and the level at which she can select major hexes or grand hexes.
The only "other" abilities a Witch has are Hexes, so it looks like you get FULL WITCH ACTION!
The only apparent costs are needing the Winter Witch archetype, and 1 lost level of Casting (although this becomes a Text/Table issue, because the ability says "stacks for spells per day", but the table only has 9/10 casting).

The archetype adds +1 Save DC on Cold spells.
The PrC lets you ignore half "resist cold", as well as making Cold spells do half "otherwordly" damage instead of Cold damage, thus piercing Immunity. The Hoarfrost Hex, which adds potential DEX damage and Staggered to any Cold spell, and at 10th you get +1 Caster level on Cold spells.


Again, I haven't done the cost/benefit on this vs. Wizard/Magaambyan
Obviously, Samsaran would be used to grab S/W spells that aren't on the Witch list, Pathfinder Savant is still an option, but you'd only want 5 levels max (5 Witch, 10 Winter Witch).

I just thought I'd mention it because it looked pretty cool PUN!!!

[Tokuhara]

I haven't fully fleshed it out, but would Witch, with the Winter Witch Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/winter-witch) AND Winter Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/winter-witch) PrC be any better?
You'd lose the Wizard bonus feats, but gain a Familiar anyway, as well as some extra Cold-power Oomph.

The PrC looks... well... Ridiculously good.
It has this ability for starters:

The only "other" abilities a Witch has are Hexes, so it looks like you get FULL WITCH ACTION!
The only apparent costs are needing the Winter Witch archetype, and 1 lost level of Casting (although this becomes a Text/Table issue, because the ability says "stacks for spells per day", but the table only has 9/10 casting).

The archetype adds +1 Save DC on Cold spells.
The PrC lets you ignore half "resist cold", as well as making Cold spells do half "otherwordly" damage instead of Cold damage, thus piercing Immunity. The Hoarfrost Hex, which adds potential DEX damage and Staggered to any Cold spell, and at 10th you get +1 Caster level on Cold spells.


Again, I haven't done the cost/benefit on this vs. Wizard/Magaambyan
Obviously, Samsaran would be used to grab S/W spells that aren't on the Witch list, Pathfinder Savant is still an option, but you'd only want 5 levels max (5 Witch, 10 Winter Witch).

I just thought I'd mention it because it looked pretty cool PUN!!!

Well, Witch is the only other Tier 1 class in Pathfinder outside of Core, and Witch saves headaches with the Familiar knowing all of your spells. Plus, the fluff of being a descendant of Baba Yaga could be very cool

[Andvare]

Snapdragon Fireworks is definitely a good blast/control spell, though more control than blast.

Get Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) on the Snapdragon, together with Dazing Spell, and it is only a level two spell.
Alternatively, you could get Rime Spell and Elemental Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/elemental-spell-metamagic), together with the above, it is only a level one spell that entangles automatically, unless they are immune to cold.

Now, a further trick with this is the Teleportation subschool of Conjuration.
Be an elf, use their special favourite class option for the wizard, and use the Dimension Door Teleportation power to move around the battlefield (you can still use 5ft step with this). This leaves you with a standard action to cast spells, and a move action to use with Snapdragon Fireworks.
Later on get a Quicken Lesser Rod to fire off the Snapdragon on your first action. Now you can effectively use two spells each turn.

This can also be done with Flaming Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flaming-sphere), though that is a level higher and a save negates damage, so less effective with Rime Spell.

[Tokuhara]

So would a Winter Witch/Winter Witch be > Obscene Wizard Build?

[RndmNumGen]

I suggest taking a look at Firefall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Like an advanced Pyrotechnics, but it deals damage and has a huge radius.

Maybe combine this with some of the other suggested metamagics? Firefall + Dazing Spell = Damage, light people on fire and daze them for 4 rounds while they burn. Sounds fun.

[Tokuhara]

I suggest taking a look at Firefall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Like an advanced Pyrotechnics, but it deals damage and has a huge radius.

Maybe combine this with some of the other suggested metamagics? Firefall + Dazing Spell = Damage, light people on fire and daze them for 4 rounds while they burn. Sounds fun.

#1, don't forget they are also blind
and 2, let's say I lit some moron on fire, theoretically, I could loophole this spell...