Do Ectopic Forms not get menu options? And is Psion or Wilder better for an AC-maker?

[danzibr]

Well, the title is pretty descriptive. I've seen people say that making an Ectopic Form (or however the right way to say that is) makes it so that they don't get the standard menu options.

However... I don't see where this is coming from. The tables around page 120 make it clear that they're the base AC's. Like, it says, "The statistics blocks for standard constructs, minus their menu choices ..." Then it seems that, say, for Agile Loper, it just lists how it changes the base stats. Where does it say they don't get any menu options?

I'm not saying people are wrong who say this, I simply don't see it.

On a, well, somewhat related note, if you only care about being a pro AC-maker (that is, you don't care about being the utility manifester person), and so don't care about the Wilder's limited powers known, are they better at making AC's? I have very, very little experience with Psions and 0 experience with Wilders.

[rot42]

My reasoning for giving the Ectopic Form constructs menu options as normal is that (1) I am not aware of any text indicating that the feat replaces this aspect of the power and (2) the feats read this way are roughly equal in power to the Boost Construct feat. I view the tables listing Ectopic Forms at various levels as a labor saving (or space consuming if you want to be cynical about it) device and as entirely analogous to the similar tables in XPH giving the base Astral Construct stats. One of the Ectopic Forms gets a Menu B option early; I play that this does not let you use Boost Construct to get a second early Menu B option, but so far as I can tell this is just a reasonable houserule.

Astral Constructs get a lot of mileage out of a small bump to manifester level, which is good for the Wilder. Being not in melee while enervated is likewise good. You have to take a feat (Expanded Knowledge or Hidden Talent) to put the power on your list, though; the Mantled Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) alternative class feature would also do it. Shapers get access to the Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) alternative class feature, which is golden.

edit: Dagnabbit, what is the use in actually deconstructing the feats if I promptly forget the results? An Ectopic Form Astral Construct straight out of the book is roughly equal to one with Boost Construct and a standard menu option. This argues pretty strongly for not giving them any additional menu option. Drat.

[NoldorForce]

Well, the title is pretty descriptive. I've seen people say that making an Ectopic Form (or however the right way to say that is) makes it so that they don't get the standard menu options.

However... I don't see where this is coming from. The tables around page 120 make it clear that they're the base AC's. Like, it says, "The statistics blocks for standard constructs, minus their menu choices ..." Then it seems that, say, for Agile Loper, it just lists how it changes the base stats. Where does it say they don't get any menu options?

I'm not saying people are wrong who say this, I simply don't see it.

Check the feat's text. (Edit: page 50.) "When you use this feat, refer to the preconstructed astral constructs of particular kinds on pages 121-128."


On a, well, somewhat related note, if you only care about being a pro AC-maker (that is, you don't care about being the utility manifester person), and so don't care about the Wilder's limited powers known, are they better at making AC's? I have very, very little experience with Psions and 0 experience with Wilders.They can pass a bit better than a non-Shaper psion due to Wild Surge, but due to the limited powers known it's tricky to enter the Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) prestige class. (It requires two Shaper-only powers to enter.) If they use the Educated Wilder ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) they can just keep on par with non-Shaper psions (who don't have to book-dive for bonus feats), but they're still behind Shaper psions who have another beneficial ACF in the form of Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a). I'd say that they're about even with non-Shaper psions, really.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I vote option C: Ardents (with the Creation Mantle), with Creation as their Dominant Ideal (as per the Mind's Eye article Expanded Classes: Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)).

[danzibr]

Thanks for the responses all (well, both). I shall... think more of this in the morning.

Check the feat's text. (Edit: page 50.) "When you use this feat, refer to the preconstructed astral constructs of particular kinds on pages 121-128."
As for this... well, I'm not sure. It says to refer to it, but I don't think that it necessarily means you take *exactly* those constructs. It seems to me to be like the base construct.

[NoldorForce]

"Preconstructed" is the operative word (hence my bolding). Page 120's first paragraph reinforces this, referring to the given astral constructs variably as "predefined", "preconstructed" (again), and "ready-made". In addition, the directions in the second paragraph on that page state that you use the shortened stat blocks on pages 121-128 as modifications on the "basic" astral construct stat blocks given on pages 120-121...which get no menu choices.

Basically, run far away from Ectopic Form and Ectopic Adept. Also pester your GM to see if you can't get the book's stealth nerf (only one at a time :smallsigh:) removed.

[danzibr]

Yeah... I see it more. That's disappointing. I've also googled it and everyone seems to agree, though there is debate on how Boost Construct interacts. It'd be nice if it explicitly said they get no menu options. Meh.

[Psyren]

They're "predefined," which indicates that you can't add anything more, but CPsi doesn't actually make this 100% clear. In most cases though, this ruling makes them not worth the feat.

As for Boost Construct - I looked in-depth at each of the forms, and while a couple of them gain a Menu B ability very early on, none of them actually gain Menu C abilities. So you end up gimping yourself at late levels unless you stick with a basic AC.