A problem player

[Sajiri]

I mentioned this player briefly in a thread a few weeks back asking for some advice, but it's gone on so much more since then.

We're playing a game of pathfinder. The DM was planning this for a looong time and has put alot of thought and effort into it but there was a snag with members. Namely that we didnt have any. We started an online game, went through a few people saying they wanted in but then never being available, until we finally settled into a group of myself (little play experience but familiar with the rules), a close friend (barbarian, completely new but great at roleplay), another friend (cleric, plays plenty of rpgs and has RP experience but never played any kind of tabletop game) and a new friend of the DMs (rogue, apparently had experience in other tabletops but was new to PF. Seemed to play pretty well).

As you can see, we all had something to learn. The DM is a long time player but this is his first time DMing. The problems started before the game even did. The cleric player had initially not wanted to bother making his own character, and asked the DM to do it for him. He originally asked for an Inquisitor, so the DM went through it all for him, then the night before we were due to start, he changed his mind and asked for a cleric instead. So the game was put off for a week while the DM made a 2nd character for him. He asked his player to only do minimal things, such as looking at the list of class skills, then ticking off what cleric gets on his sheet. Several hours later, he still hadnt done that, claiming he was 'so confused and lost'. Finally he was asked only to come up with a personality and background, which he....never did. I havent seen this player's sheet, but from what I was told by the DM, he made the character pretty overpowered just for this player, and nobody else in the group got this kind of treatment.

When we finally had our first session, it went well, aside from the fact the cleric did absolutely nothing through the whole thing. The only thing he said/did throughout the whole session, was announcing there were undead somewhere near, after the dm told him he could sense them, then both he and I told the player to tell the group that. By the time the first encounter started, he'd asked the DM to play for him while he watched. This would have been fine, except none of the other players were aware of this, and he had specifically stated he wanted this character to be the HEALER. The DM wasn't going to do anything with this character, had it get knocked out first then spend the encounter crawling around being useless.

When the session ended with a total wipe, the DM at least used the cleric to keep us all from dying in our first game, but it was still rather disappointing.

That was a few weeks ago now. Since then, we've practically given up on the rogue who had alot suddenly come up and has been too busy to play, which is understandable. However the cleric has not been showing up either. Thing is he does not have an excuse, and he does not tell us before hand. He clearly does not seem like he wants to play, yet he refuses to drop out. He's a really nice guy, but he's also pretty emotional. When I've brought up to him he doesnt have to feel obligated to be there if he doesnt want to play, he gets weirdly upset like we're kicking him out unfairly (when we have never said that, just that he doesnt have to stay if he doesnt want to).

My patience has pretty much reached it's end with this guy now. After about 3 weeks of having to tell the barbarian 'sorry, cancelled this week, only you and I showed up', the cleric asked the DM for a solo adventure to 'learn'. At least he was taking a step, but it was still annoying as I had asked for the same thing when I started and was told no. So this past weekend, I had to again tell the barb it was cancelled as the DM was going to be running a solo game for the cleric, the cleric....never showed up. He was online in the morning, but right around the time the DM had told him to be ready, he disappeared. I finally caught him online this morning, asked him what was up, and he claimed his msn 'was dead' which I highly doubt, as he had many other forms of communicating online.

I reminded him that I would rather he not play at all and TELL us if he didnt want to, rather than assure us he would be there then never show. I asked him if he wanted to play, and got 'yes and no'. I asked him what he wanted to do this weekend for the session and was told 'I dunno~'. When I asked him what he was having problems with it was 'Im still so lost with it all and dont understand' which I had to point out, he never will understand if he never makes any attempt to aka reading books (at least a little) reading up what his character's skills do, ask the dm questions, LISTEN when the dm explains things. I got him to agree to go through his sheet with me later and I'd help him understand the basics a few hours later since I was about to go out, but of course when I got online later to help him he was not there.

It's really dragging it on for myself and the other player who are ready to play each week reliably and get told no because half our group is missing. We've had no luck finding other members, and the DM doesn't really want to run it with only 2 people.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get this player involved?

[Kaun]

ehh, this hasn't progressed well.

IMHO it sounds like you have tried helping him, it is now time for ultimatums.

Tell him directly; "Your inability to attend sessions means that none of us get to play. If you continue to miss sessions, with out letting us know in advance, we will have to removed you from the group"

It sounds like you and your DM have both tried to help him, if he does't make any effort then get rid of him.

How do you know him?

Is he a friend or a friend of a friend? A random from a meet up site?

[Sajiri]

He's a friend of the DM and I who we've known for 1-2 years. I've never had any problem with him before with anything else, like I said though he's very emotional and even just saying 'you know if you dont want to play you dont have to' he gets all depressed like we don't want to have him around at all, so I dont know how telling him outright 'if you keep missing sessions you're out' will go :/

Although the DM has said he will go ahead next week if it is just myself and the barb player, it's still disappointing when he plans for that guy to be there and he isnt.

[Jay R]

I don't even have any idea WHY to get this player involved.

People who want to play will do so. With a lot of effort, you can get somebody who doesn't want to play to come to the game anyway, but it won't help you or him or the game.

[Sajiri]

I don't even have any idea WHY to get this player involved.

People who want to play will do so. With a lot of effort, you can get somebody who doesn't want to play to come to the game anyway, but it won't help you or him or the game.

To be honest I would rather it were just myself and the barb. But the DM insists he doesn't want only 2 players and we cant find anyone else who is available. He'll go ahead without him if he has to, but I get the feeling the game would die pretty quickly like that, and with how much work the DM has put into it, I don't want to see him disappointed like that.

[valadil]

Play whether or not he shows up. If I were the GM I'd stop planning anything around this guy. By all means include him when he does bother to play, but he shouldn't be the star of the show if he can't be relied on.

In general it's a good idea to establish a policy for what happens when someone can't make it. My last game had 5 players. We'd play if we'd be down one person, but not two. But if someone simply no-showed, tough they didn't get to play. You shouldn't cater to someone who isn't willing to put the time into the game.

[Kaun]

But the DM insists he doesn't want only 2 players and we cant find anyone else who is available. He'll go ahead without him if he has to, but I get the feeling the game would die pretty quickly like that, and with how much work the DM has put into it, I don't want to see him disappointed like that.

Sounds like you're better off making a thread called "Advice on finding new players?", because it would be a hell of a lot easier then dealing with this guy.

[Sajiri]

Sounds like you're better off making a thread called "Advice on finding new players?", because it would be a hell of a lot easier then dealing with this guy.

Probably, but that's more a case of nobody wanted to play with people we didn't already know, and the fact that we're currently all in very different timezones with different schedules makes finding people who will be available at the same time difficult. We HAD people who genuinely wanted to play, but they admitted they simply couldn't make the times that suited the rest and backed out

To put things in perspective a bit more- this guy is going through alot of personal things which dont have any effect on the game itself, but we've been trying to include him in what we do and help him out alot to cheer him up which is also partly why we've been hesitant to boot him.

Although I think the fact we've been catering to what he wants in so much lately is probably causing him to think he is the centre of everything which is also probably why he thinks he can act this way and expect special treatment when the rest of us have the same, if not less, level of experience as he does

[Red Rubber Band]

My current DM has a second group with a player like this.
He's a pretty social and laid back DM, drinks and off-topic chatter isn't something frowned upon (within reason).
Unless, like the aforementioned player, you come along to the sessions, get drunk, and barely make an attempt to involve yourself in the game. :smallannoyed:

Our DM and his party members, even players from our group, have asked him to try and focus even a tiny bit more on the game (and not talk over the top of people :smallmad:). But he hasn't changed at all after months of playing, and so our DM is looking at kicking him.

It may not end up being pretty. Most of the two groups and DM are friends. And this particular player would probably take the removal to heart. But, an action has to be taken. He's severely detracting from the enjoyment of others, and not even playing D&D, which is the whole reason they're there.

[Frog of War]

Since you're playing online, it seems there's really not much else you can do for him that you haven't already tried. I would resume the search for another player to replace him with, and in the meantime try to continue trying to play with him. If something changes in his life and he improves, then that's great. If you find someone else, then it is what it is. He's taking the fun away from everyone else quite thoroughly.

[Jay R]

Our DM and his party members, even players from our group, have asked him to try and focus even a tiny bit more on the game (and not talk over the top of people :smallmad:). But he hasn't changed at all after months of playing, and so our DM is looking at kicking him.

It may not end up being pretty. Most of the two groups and DM are friends. And this particular player would probably take the removal to heart. But, an action has to be taken. He's severely detracting from the enjoyment of others, and not even playing D&D, which is the whole reason they're there.

In my experience, it's easier - and kinder - to simply end that game, and then start another one a week or two later, than to kick a player out.

[caden_varn]

In my experience, it's easier - and kinder - to simply end that game, and then start another one a week or two later, than to kick a player out.

The problem with this approach is the problem player is likely to find out that you have started again, then you not only have to deal with all the conflict from dropping the player, but also additional resentment from doing it behind their backs.

In the case of the OP though, it sounds a bit like the problem player does want to spend time with you, but is not really interested in roleplaying. It may be a good idea to shelve the RP for a while and change to something he is more interested in. If you establish some other activity to do with him, he is less likely to feel upset if you are RPing without him

[Rallicus]

Tell him directly; "Your inability to attend sessions means that none of us get to play. If you continue to miss sessions, with out letting us know in advance, we will have to removed you from the group"


Eh... I don't like this at all. It makes it seem like tabletop/PnP is a job or something, and that you're obligated to show up or be fired. It's certainly not worth losing friends over.

I personally blame the DM. Disregarding the fact that he's being a sort of enabler, he's cancelling sessions based off the absence of one player now. Unacceptable. Of course, the argument here is that D&D/PF is so reliant on balanced encounters that missing one player would ruin everything, but that shouldn't stop him from adjusting CRs and reformatting the encounters to better suit the two man party.

He has a ton of options available to him. Personally I've only cancelled one session due to lack of player attendance (because we were left with a level 1 ranger and sorc... kind of hard to work with that), but since then I've come up with viable hireling rules that I feel work well.

Tell him to use hirelings. Tell him to adjust the CRs. Tell him that his cleric friend isn't the only person in this campaign, that they're not the center of the universe. Tell him that the cleric can make up the lost XP in solo adventures.

I realize that he's planning on running a game with just the two of you if this happens next time, but it shouldn't have taken him a month to decide this.

[Dr Bwaa]

In my opinion, you can't kick a guy out of a group who is not, in fact, in the group. Someone who refuses to make even a tiny effort to play, or even show up, is not in the group. If this friend wants to believe he's in the group; fine. He's the healer anyway, so just keep on inviting him, and when he doesn't show up, have someone run his character as a faceless NPC healer. There's no extra work for the DM (because otherwise the two of you are going to go out and hire a healer from town anyway), you get to play, and the guy playing the cleric doesn't get ostracized by being told "you can't come anymore". Make sure he knows up front that you're playing whether he shows up or not; that way he doesn't get a Dramatic Revelation and think you've been going behind his back or anything.

Honestly, this is an obnoxious problem to have OOC, but an easy one to solve as the DM. Cancelling the game for a guy who hasn't shown up yet is not the way to go. As others have said, it's easy enough to adjust encounters. If a GM can't be flexible enough to deal with a missing party member, how will he ever handle it when the PCs inevitably decide to split the party on their own?

[Sajiri]

The problem with this approach is the problem player is likely to find out that you have started again, then you not only have to deal with all the conflict from dropping the player, but also additional resentment from doing it behind their backs.

In the case of the OP though, it sounds a bit like the problem player does want to spend time with you, but is not really interested in roleplaying. It may be a good idea to shelve the RP for a while and change to something he is more interested in. If you establish some other activity to do with him, he is less likely to feel upset if you are RPing without him

We actually DO do other things with him, we even pay for his sub to certain MMOs he wants to play with us because he has no job to pay for them himself. He isn't a bum or anything, he does try to find work, and he tries to repay us in whatever way he can but just lately he seems to be forgetting that not everything revolves around him...

Either way though, the DM is considering looking for players outside of our circle of friends, though the fact both me and the barb are shy people, its going to take some getting used to :p

[Randomguy]

You could try bringing in another player (easier said than done, I know), but keeping the cleric around as an NPC, in case the problem player ever decides to show up.

As for actually finding a player, you could try asking around on the Finding Players part of this forum, if you can't find anyone in your friend group. It might help if the new guy is someone that you actually know from online.

[The Random NPC]

Eh... I don't like this at all. It makes it seem like tabletop/PnP is a job or something, and that you're obligated to show up or be fired. It's certainly not worth losing friends over.

Well... it kind of is. It isn't as serious as not showing up to work, but you have made plans to do something with friends. A sudden no show with no excuse is just rude, and I would take that as a indication of how important I am to you. After all I set aside some time to specifically play with you, the least you could do is tell me if something comes up, or back out of the game if it seems like you can't/won't make them.

EDIT:
Since then, we've practically given up on the rogue who had alot suddenly come up
Hehe, alot (hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html).

[caden_varn]

In that case, I agree with other posters - tell him (and the rogue player) that the game will go ahead whether they show up or not, and if they cannot attend their characters will be run as NPCs for the duration of the session. They can just basically stand at the back and do nothing most of the time, so it should not be much of an issue, aside from the DM adjusting the encounters a bit.

About recruiting new players - I can certainly understand it being a bit daunting for a shy person, being one myself. The last time I joined a new group where I did not know anyone was a bit worrying in some ways, but once we actually started to play that went quite rapidly. You have the game as a focus for conversation which I find makes it easier to get to know them and gives you something in common to talk about.
I hope it all goes well for you (and I hope things resolve themselves peacefully with your friend).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered telling him something to the effect of, "look dude, you clearly don't want to play D&D with us. You're welcome to come and hang out while -we- play D&D, but we're not putting the campaign on hold for you any longer. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings, but we've given you every opportunity and you've left us no choice. Maybe you can join in at a later date once you've learned the rules, either by watching us or learning on your own."

You could even add, "I/ the DM will help you learn between sessions," if either of you isn't so fed up with his attitude that you're still willing to teach him.

[Joe the Rat]

In that case, I agree with other posters - tell him (and the rogue player) that the game will go ahead whether they show up or not, and if they cannot attend their characters will be run as NPCs for the duration of the session. They can just basically stand at the back and do nothing most of the time, so it should not be much of an issue, aside from the DM adjusting the encounters a bit.

Pretty much this. Semi-forgotten wallflower DMPC is pretty much how you described his "playing," less the DM control part. My online group has a standing policy to soldier on with one short, control usually split between the DM (out of combat) and one of the players (in combat). Or whomever does the best impression of Joe Pesci, Batman, or Eeyore (depending on who's missing).

If your DM is willing to add that stipulation, and you go on the assumption that the other guy won't be there, you're good to go. He will either show up or no. If he's gone for long enough, you can probably retire the character if you get an active player who wants to be the cleric.

[Sajiri]

The guy basically LIVES on msn since he never goes out, he hasnt been on in 3 days now which only seems to happen when we tell him to be ready and we'll do/help him with something d&d related.

Well, the DM has given up on him now. We were going to give him another chance after his no show earlier in the week but he's still hiding so oh well. If he shows up to actually play at some point we'll probably let him in, but he wont be getting any special treatment any longer in the form of solo sessions or putting the game on hold for his sake. We weren't waiting on the rogue to show up, he had a genuine excuse for not being around and apologised for it, we already knew we couldn't wait on him.

But in other news this thread must have done some good since it seems someone in here will be joining us instead most likely :p