Aligned babies?

[AntiTrust]

Got a quick question about the various detect alignment spells. My group is in the presence of a black dragon egg and wanted the paladin in the group to use her detect evil ability to see if the dragon inside was evil. The game ended before that happened and I now turn to the boards wisdom in what I should respond with.

I'm inclined to say it doesn't ring as evil as it hasn't been born yet and site the "potential peril" line of detect evil for why it doesn't work on eggs, unborn fetuses, etc "Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them.".

I'll admit the line probably was referring to things like dangerous bridges across windy chasms, but on its own the egg has hardness and HP, and in many respects is more object than creature at this point.

[Lord_Gareth]

Got a quick question about the various detect alignment spells. My group is in the presence of a black dragon egg and wanted the paladin in the group to use her detect evil ability to see if the dragon inside was evil. The game ended before that happened and I now turn to the boards wisdom in what I should respond with.

I'm inclined to say it doesn't ring as evil as it hasn't been born yet and site the "potential peril" line of detect evil for why it doesn't work on eggs, unborn fetuses, etc "Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them.".

I'll admit the line probably was referring to things like dangerous bridges across windy chasms, but on its own the egg has hardness and HP, and in many respects is more object than creature at this point.

Black dragons do not have the [Evil] subtype. They are not evil by nature, but rather by cultural inclination. The wyrmling within does have violent instincts - it is a predator by nature - but the correct upbringing can turn it into any alignment under the sun. Consider suggesting to your paladin's player that she turn the egg over to a willing metallic dragon who will care for the child and answer its inevitable questions about its kin.

[Duboris]

I wouldn't consider any colored dragons "Evil" until they atleast got to the young stage. That way they've had time to flesh out what they do, or don't want to do. They're intelligent creatures.

Regardless you can't really consider a black dragon egg evil. Its an egg.

Think of it like this. Evil is defined by its actions. Adult black dragons probably kill things for ****s and giggles.

This is an egg. That is doing egg things.

[Venger]

I wouldn't consider any colored dragons "Evil" until they atleast got to the young stage. That way they've had time to flesh out what they do, or don't want to do. They're intelligent creatures.

Regardless you can't really consider a black dragon egg evil. Its an egg.

Think of it like this. Evil is defined by its actions. Adult black dragons probably kill things for ****s and giggles.

This is an egg. That is doing egg things.

well, yeah. while I don't have a ton of problems with 3.5 personally, judging certain monsters by the color of their skin always made me feel uncomfortable as well.

If you've got a paladin in your group, why not tell him that the alignment of the egg is whatever s/he wants it to be? Being a paladin is about more than destroying evil, it's also about creating good. A black dragon could be not only a powerful weapon for good in the battles to come, but also a friend and companion to the party. If it was anything else, why not rescue it?

not to say you should construct a paladin falls situation here, just that you might ask about the character's views on whether they can make a difference in someone's life. If they didn't want to think about/talk about/ RP things like this out sometimes, they probably wouldn't have played a paladin.

good luck with your game. let us know how it goes.

btw, is it just me, or does "aligned babies" sound like a captcha?

[killianh]

I would say that they would come up as evil because in the draconomicon it says that they are born fully articulate and intelligent with basic information passed on from the mother before the child is born (forget the page on physiology, but it's explained in that section). That applies to just-born dragons, though I suppose in the egg it might be different.

Personally (with that passage in mind) I would say they would detect evil.

[Anxe]

The Draconomicon states that newly hatched wyrmlings inherit a lot of knowledge from their parents and do not enter the world with tablua rasa like other races are. The book says that the only statisical difference between a newly hatched wyrmling and a year old wyrmling is that the newly hatched one is clumsier. The book points out in a later section that a black dragon wyrmling is indeed a chaotic evil creature.

I think that's enough evidence that by RAW if the fetus/dragon baby has a brain, it is probably hard-wired for evil. However, it's up to the DM whether the fetus/dragon baby counts as a creature or not. The detect evil spell only detects evil creatures, not necessarily evil fetuses. I may be getting too political with that last part though...

My main point is that the wyrmling would have an INT of 8 while still in the egg and thus would be intelligent enough to have an alignment. This alignment is naturally evil for a black dragon. However the DM can make up their own rules if that seems too silly to them.

EDIT: Semi-ninjad by Killianh

[Deophaun]

The answer here is that you do whatever makes for the most interesting outcome. The rules just don't tell you what the egg is. Sure, we can say that dragons are intelligent and therefor cannot be innately evil. But, we can also remember that we only have a sample size of one species when looking at intelligent creatures, so we don't exactly have a handle on how intelligence affects moral free will. Now, you throw active deities into the mix and make alignment something tangible, and you can justify pretty much anything. Heck, maybe the dragon egg pings as good-aligned, and Bahamut actually guided the paladin to it to ensure this odd black dragon's survival. Who knows? Well, you do.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While the hatchling inside the egg would detect evil if it's close enough to term to be viable, the spell won't be able to tell, since the egg shell blocks line of effect.

Detect evil probably won't pick up squat unless mommy was here within the last hour. She'll have left dim lingering auras of chaos and evil throughout the nest area if she's old enough.

If you have reason to believe she isn't at least a mature adult and you pick up a dim aura, GTFO! Mommy's only a d6 minutes away.

[VanBuren]

The Paladn empties her mind of all emotion, becoming tranquil as a peaceful lake. Shunting her own self aside, she allows the rush of the divine to overwhelm and enhance her. Already she can feel the cosmic energies of good and evil whirl around her, growing ever more aware of her own mortal failings, even as she fortifies the divine light inside. She reaches across the divine chasm, stretching her senses as far as she can into the nearby egg, filled with hope but afraid of the darkness that may lurk within.

She is not prepared.

Every experience is different. Some souls present as smells, others as sounds, sights, or even feelings. This is not like those.

There is a sudden plunge, and she finds herself suspended in a great cosmic expanse. Cold. Infinite. Incomprehensible. She notices first the great chill that comes over her. A slight unease at first, but it grows and gnaws at her. Doubt, fear, and grief wash over her as she pushes her mind father, grasping at the cause. Pushing on the despair grows thicker, denser, as though a great fog wished to choke her. Eventually she comes to the end. There is no other way to describe it. It is not a thing, but not a thing. A great void that swallows up all that comes near it. She despairs. Never before has she seen such a discouraging sight. There is no limit to the potential evil in this egg. It cannot be allowed.

She can no longer stand the sight of this void. She turns away. Even as she resigns herself to the grim task ahead, the slightest hint of warmth finds her cheek. A trifling thing, but significant in the abyss. Almost by instinct she finds herself guided, growing stronger with every step. If the abyss was infinite, then so too was the star; a massive ball of light, warmth and compassion, without ending and without limit. It cannot be destroyed.

A contradiction, yet the meaning dawns on her as surely as if she was being lectured. Nothing is written, she thinks.

All life is precious.

We are the choices we make.



I would say that they would come up as evil because in the draconomicon it says that they are born fully articulate and intelligent with basic information passed on from the mother before the child is born (forget the page on physiology, but it's explained in that section). That applies to just-born dragons, though I suppose in the egg it might be different.

Personally (with that passage in mind) I would say they would detect evil.

But probably this.

[Venger]

(beautiful stuff)

I really liked that. well done. I hope OP follows your advice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While the hatchling inside the egg would detect evil if it's close enough to term to be viable, the spell won't be able to tell, since the egg shell blocks line of effect.

Detect evil probably won't pick up squat unless mommy was here within the last hour. She'll have left dim lingering auras of chaos and evil throughout the nest area if she's old enough.

If you have reason to believe she isn't at least a mature adult and you pick up a dim aura, GTFO! Mommy's only a d6 minutes away.

Just remembered: No matter what you decide the egg pings with on detect evil, the paladin can't just smash it. Doing so would be slaying a helpless captive who's, definitively, done nothing to deserve smiting, regardless of its alignment.

This assumes of course that, unlike chickens, dragons don't lay eggs unless the sire has fertilized them, like most reptiles.

Disclaimer: I've read draconomicon and realize that dragons are not reptiles, but they're the closest analogue in reality.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I'd say the baby is evil. That makes the story much more dramatic actually - making the baby not inherently evil is kinda of a 'happily everafter' kind of thing.

[MukkTB]

If the RAW dragon is born with 8 int with knowledge from its parents then at late development the egg would have an alignment. Not necessarily evil though. More likely to be evil than anything else but for a typical dragon infancy would be the time it is least likely to qualify as evil. It hasn't done anything bad yet regardless of its intentions.

The biggest deciding factor is probably the parent that the baby gets its knowledge from. Take however evil it was and tone it down a couple notches. Then report that to the paladin.

[silverwolfer]

Drizzet had an evil alignment at birth...if only they killed him in time before the fan boys got to know about him...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Drizzet had an evil alignment at birth...if only they killed him in time before the fan boys got to know about him...

Like him or hate him, Drizz't was as neutral as any other baby that's not specifically called out as either always evil and born with sapience and knowledge or marked with the [evil] subtype.

Dragons being fully capable killing machines with the capacity for an intellectual conversation at hatching makes them a special exception.

That said, I think the best bet is the egg-shell blocks the divination, and the paladin can't smite the egg in any case, if he believes it to be alive.

[silverwolfer]

wait....

does that mean animals need a [wild] subtype, so they don't get declared evil for killing lil johnny for raising them up from the age of an egg?

[ericgrau]

Unlike orcs, for example, black dragons are always evil not merely "usually evil". So the baby is evil. My best guess is that it's tied directly to their color so that way you don't have differences in alignment in certain regions.

But it's your world and you're free to determine how things work.

And they're not mindless so it would not be unreasonable to raise them differently in spite of their natural inclinations. Good aligned demons (which detect as both good and evil due to their subtype, btw) are even possible as rare exceptions to the "always".

[Kelb_Panthera]

wait....

does that mean animals need a [wild] subtype, so they don't get declared evil for killing lil johnny for raising them up from the age of an egg?

animal intelligence excuses animals (and anything else that doesn't have an alignment subtype) from alignment discussions.

[Manly Man]

I would say that, while the infant dragon would have great tendency towards being a vicious, snarling, spiteful and sadistic creature from birth, that doesn't mean that it's all totally ingrained in its head. Such tendencies are inheritable, obviously, as it's part of the nature of black dragons. However, given the proper nudges and upraising, the black dragon could, eventually, be made into a good creature. A hot-blooded, impatient and cantankerous one, but still a creature that is of the best intentions at heart. Perhaps, if raised among overwhelmingly good folks, such as a silver or gold dragon, it would learn to reserve its violent tendencies for when such things are needed.

THis, of course, is thinking ahead and for long after the black dragon's birth. As of now, even if detect evil was to penetrate the egg, I say it would not immediately ring up as a definitive enough evil to be of note. The paladin may be able to detect the evil nature that is a part of the dragon, but those tendencies haven't surfaced yet, so the evil inside would probably ring up as present, but hollow and insubstantial.

[Flame of Anor]

I would say that they would come up as evil because in the draconomicon it says that they are born fully articulate and intelligent with basic information passed on from the mother before the child is born (forget the page on physiology, but it's explained in that section). That applies to just-born dragons, though I suppose in the egg it might be different.

Personally (with that passage in mind) I would say they would detect evil.

To be honest, I think this is a stupid rule. Leaving opportunities open for deep moral problems can be very rewarding if your players are ready for it (if not, don't present them with such problems). On the other hand, closing off those opportunities, e.g. with rules for hard-wired alignments, presents moral problems which are unrealistic in a very game-based way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty), not a realistic way.

[karkus]

Realistically, it's Evil.

But that's just boring, to kill it. If you want this to be more fun/exciting/etc., then have it be Neutral and undecided about its alignment. This could turn out to be either a small side quest in which the PC's find a new home for it, possibly under the care of another aquatic, metallic dragon (bronze makes the most sense, I think), or accept the dragon as an NPC teammate/cohort/paladin mount. Oh, the irony and cliche-ity of a paladin riding a by-nature-Evil dragon!

But really, it's up to you. This dragon can (and should) be whatever is the most fun for you and your players.

[TheOOB]

As far as 3/3.5 alignment goes, here is how I always see it. If a creature is listed as "often x", there is just a cultural inclination twords x, and the creature defaults to neutral outside of their environment.

If they are listed as "usually x", the creature has a natural instinctual tenancy twords x. A baby would still be neutral, but left alone they would most likely become x on their own.

A creature with "always x" is born x, and is strongly associated with x. A baby would detect as x. If their Int is 3 or higher, they can change, but that is going agienst their nature.

A creature with the [x] subtype is literally made of x, and even if they somehow go agienst their alignment(which would be exceedingly difficult), they still detect as x.

[Fitz10019]

... the egg shell blocks line of effect.

This is the best answer, IMHO. The paladin would be obliged to 'rescue' it when it doesn't ping as evil. When the party brings the egg to a metallic dragon, that dragon will say thanks, hand them a piece of treasure in appreciation and then immediately feed the egg to it's young.

I also wonder if the dragon-momma would have a routine of protecting the eggs with spells.

[Killer Angel]

snip

This is the most amazing description for the effect of a lame 1st lev. spell I've ever seen. You clearly deserve a cookie.

That said, this is the answer:


the egg-shell blocks the divination,

:smallbiggrin:

[OracleofWuffing]

"Detect Evil indicates that there is an evil potato inside the egg."

There, now your players have a puzzle to figure out!:smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

As far as 3/3.5 alignment goes, here is how I always see it. If a creature is listed as "often x", there is just a cultural inclination twords x, and the creature defaults to neutral outside of their environment.

If they are listed as "usually x", the creature has a natural instinctual tenancy twords x. A baby would still be neutral, but left alone they would most likely become x on their own.

A creature with "always x" is born x, and is strongly associated with x. A baby would detect as x. If their Int is 3 or higher, they can change, but that is going agienst their nature.

A creature with the [x] subtype is literally made of x, and even if they somehow go agienst their alignment(which would be exceedingly difficult), they still detect as x.
This is probably one of the better ways of looking at it, though I've never given much consideration to the alignment of "infants" that weren't true dragons.

This is the best answer, IMHO. The paladin would be obliged to 'rescue' it when it doesn't ping as evil. When the party brings the egg to a metallic dragon, that dragon will say thanks, hand them a piece of treasure in appreciation and then immediately feed the egg to it's young.

I also wonder if the dragon-momma would have a routine of protecting the eggs with spells.

Even if the egg pings evil, destroying it would precipitate a fall for the paladin. You can't murder a helpless prisoner, and you can't kill an evil creature when you're that certain hasn't done anything wrong.

Destroying the egg is an evil act any way you slice it.

If mommy is powerful enough to have a solid defensive magic routine for her nest, forget the egg and move. The stunted casting ability of true dragons means she will be exceedingly dangerous if she's got that kind of sorcerous might.

[TuggyNE]

Unfortunately, the otherwise ingenious answer of "make the eggshell block LoE" doesn't work by RAW:
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

An egg shell is not a thin sheet of lead, or an inch of common metal, so it's nowhere near enough to block detect evil.

[darksolitaire]

If anyone cares, there's an article about dragons fostering their eggs/young to other races in Dragon Magazine. It is mentioned that evil dragons sometimes pass their progeny as metallic dragons for laughs, and that the wyrmlings are basically evil. This echoes the statements in Draconomicon.

Weather smashing those eggs commits as evil act or not probably correlates more to how easily paladins tend to fall in your campaign. Letting them live would be the upper left blue that will come back to bite you few sequels later.

[silverwolfer]

Wait, so Pallys now have evil radar, and if it does not "ping" off the shell as "evil" we now have anti magic armor?

Everyone grab some friggen chicken eggs from the local chicken infested commoner, we just found a way to make anti magic detection.

[silverwolfer]

Unfortunately, the otherwise ingenious answer of "make the eggshell block LoE" doesn't work by RAW:

An egg shell is not a thin sheet of lead, or an inch of common metal, so it's nowhere near enough to block detect evil.



What if it is a Lead Dragon?

[KnightOfV]

+1 to VanBuren.

Making the egg ping evil is the most interesting choice, and fits thematically. It lets the paladin decide for herself whether the right thing is to destroy it, (it is destined for evil) or try to save it (sentient creatures can fight their fate). I would definitely not make her fall over the dilemma whatever she decides to do.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, the otherwise ingenious answer of "make the eggshell block LoE" doesn't work by RAW:

An egg shell is not a thin sheet of lead, or an inch of common metal, so it's nowhere near enough to block detect evil.
Two things:

A) draconomicon doesn't actually say how thick the eggshells are and they are nearly so if not quite as sturdy as iron. This doesn't make them metal, but it does make a solid argument toward the idea that they should be treated as such. Then there's the fact that the creature that layed the egg and the creature inside are both inherently magical. It stands to reason that their eggs should have some latent magical properties too.

B) I never said it was RAW, we're talking about an actual game in-progress. I made a suggestion that I thought could prevent an otherwise unfortunate chain of events. Call it a houserule, it still makes a certain amount of sense.

Wait, so Pallys now have evil radar, and if it does not "ping" off the shell as "evil" we now have anti magic armor?

Everyone grab some friggen chicken eggs from the local chicken infested commoner, we just found a way to make anti magic detection.

A) We're discussing dragon eggs, there's nothing whatsoever to suggest they're even remotely similar to chicken eggs, except that they are both eggs.

B) If you want to go harvesting the shells of dragon eggs, by all means, go for it, ....but bear in mind that you have to completely break line of effect to actually stop AoE's, I'm only suggesting that it should stop divinations foiled by the usual stone/lead/metal defenses, and that there will likely be consequences to screwing with the offspring of one of the sources of sorcery in lesser beings.... burny, melty, toothy, painful consequences.

[Fitz10019]

Even if the egg pings evil, destroying it would precipitate a fall for the paladin. You can't murder a helpless prisoner, and you can't kill an evil creature when you're that certain hasn't done anything wrong.

Destroying the egg is an evil act any way you slice it.

You misunderstand. My point was that finding such an egg is a puzzle to the Pally, and giving it to a metallic dragon for fostering seems like a good Pally-to-the-rescue solution. The metallic dragon would know better (culturally), and make brunch as soon as the paladin left.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You misunderstand. My point was that finding such an egg is a puzzle to the Pally, and giving it to a metallic dragon for fostering seems like a good Pally-to-the-rescue solution. The metallic dragon would know better (culturally), and make brunch as soon as the paladin left.

I, indeed, misunderstood your meaning. That's probably my cue to hit the hay.

My point stands though. Knowingly destroying the egg is an evil act for the reasons I gave.

Moving the egg could kill the creature inside, so just walking away is a neutral act.

If he just leaves it the egg could survive, it could not. The paladin almost certainly doesn't have the knowledge to care for the egg, and barring a weird circumstance he definitely lacks the ability. A reasonable argument exists for leaving it alone being the best thing for it and everyone else, thus neutral.

He couldn't be faulted for trying to take the egg to a copper dragon for care, even if he failed or the copper promptly made eggs benedict. This would even be an attempt to do good, and consequently would be defined as a good act, regardless of the outcome.

The egg pinging evil won't accomplish anything but giving the paladin a reason for a wholy innappropriate knee-jerk smite.

I'd advise that detect evil fails to penetrate the eggshell, as I've already suggested, unless you're fairly certain that detecting evil will result in an interesting crisis of conscience, and that that's what the player wants.

You know your player best, you have to make this call.

[Lord_Gareth]

For shame folks. It's an infnt; why should the paladin, or even an interested metallic dragon/temple of Bahamut want to kill it?

One of the most fundamental tenants of a Good alignment is that no being is unworthy of mercy or past redemption - not even dragons, not even fiends. And this dragon doesn't even have the disadvantage of being made of the evil subtype. These people should be relishing the chance to save one more soul from the lower planes (and incidentally shove it in Tiamat's ugly faces), not sharpening blades for the slaughter like some blood-drunk Abyssal cult.

[Urpriest]

I think that's enough evidence that by RAW if the fetus/dragon baby has a brain, it is probably hard-wired for evil. However, it's up to the DM whether the fetus/dragon baby counts as a creature or not. The detect evil spell only detects evil creatures, not necessarily evil fetuses. I may be getting too political with that last part though...


One point to think about here: Unholy Scion.

[ahenobarbi]

For shame folks. It's an infnt; why should the paladin, or even an interested metallic dragon/temple of Bahamut want to kill it?

One of the most fundamental tenants of a Good alignment is that no being is unworthy of mercy or past redemption - not even dragons, not even fiends. And this dragon doesn't even have the disadvantage of being made of the evil subtype. These people should be relishing the chance to save one more soul from the lower planes (and incidentally shove it in Tiamat's ugly faces), not sharpening blades for the slaughter like some blood-drunk Abyssal cult.

There are different varieties of palladins :miko:

[HunterOfJello]

One of the most fundamental tenants of a Good alignment is that no being is unworthy of mercy or past redemption - not even dragons, not even fiends.


One point to think about here: Unholy Scion.


Unholy Scions are specifically written in HoH as being "irremediably evil" once they've been born. A paladin who has knowledge of the types of true evils in a d&d fantasy world would be aware of these sorts of things. It's not impossible for a Black Dragon to be redeemed, but redemption would fall in somewhere between extraordinarily unlikely and impossible.

Perhaps the only way to save the Black Dragon wyrmling's soul is to kill it before its soul has fully attached to its body (i.e. before its born). Otherwise, it would need to be hauled over to an exalted spellcaster where they can force it into a good alignment.

[danzibr]

The Paladn empties her mind of all emotion, becoming tranquil as a peaceful lake. Shunting her own self aside, she allows the rush of the divine to overwhelm and enhance her. Already she can feel the cosmic energies of good and evil whirl around her, growing ever more aware of her own mortal failings, even as she fortifies the divine light inside. She reaches across the divine chasm, stretching her senses as far as she can into the nearby egg, filled with hope but afraid of the darkness that may lurk within.

She is not prepared.

Every experience is different. Some souls present as smells, others as sounds, sights, or even feelings. This is not like those.

There is a sudden plunge, and she finds herself suspended in a great cosmic expanse. Cold. Infinite. Incomprehensible. She notices first the great chill that comes over her. A slight unease at first, but it grows and gnaws at her. Doubt, fear, and grief wash over her as she pushes her mind father, grasping at the cause. Pushing on the despair grows thicker, denser, as though a great fog wished to choke her. Eventually she comes to the end. There is no other way to describe it. It is not a thing, but not a thing. A great void that swallows up all that comes near it. She despairs. Never before has she seen such a discouraging sight. There is no limit to the potential evil in this egg. It cannot be allowed.

She can no longer stand the sight of this void. She turns away. Even as she resigns herself to the grim task ahead, the slightest hint of warmth finds her cheek. A trifling thing, but significant in the abyss. Almost by instinct she finds herself guided, growing stronger with every step. If the abyss was infinite, then so too was the star; a massive ball of light, warmth and compassion, without ending and without limit. It cannot be destroyed.

A contradiction, yet the meaning dawns on her as surely as if she was being lectured. Nothing is written, she thinks.

All life is precious.

We are the choices we make.

This is the most amazing description for the effect of a lame 1st lev. spell I've ever seen. You clearly deserve a cookie.
Agreed.

In any case, it seems that the "always evil" thing, well, means always evil. Like, it's totally impossible to find a non-evil black dragon regardless of its upbringing according to RAW.

For numerous reasons (the longer I think about it, the more reasons I come up with), I'd not follow RAW here.

[HunterColt22]

I agree with half of the discussion it seems. The baby/egg isn't inherently evil, even though its description says it is almost always that way. Also since when did we go to dragon for official rulings on things anyway? Heck they had a pseudo Ettrat for OA and people still say its not official.

Best advice, think of what you feel would make a good story, impart it on to your players and then let their moral compasses go off and see what way they pull.

My group faced the same thing about two months back actually, killed mom, found its lair and about three eggs and three newly hatched wyrmlings. Pally pants got an instant grin and screamed "SSSSMMMMIIIITTTEEE!!!!" Rest of the party said no, and the DM inclined to agree with the other half and we took it to a priestess of Bahamut. Two months later I walk in the church and see them flying around, being hellions a bit, but cowing to the priestess as if no tomorrow was coming.

Again your world your thoughts, go with what you want, personally most of us seem to think, its intelligent and thus has the ability to rationalize and be influenced by both parents and its internal nature. Just because something is always thought to be, doesn't mean it always is. Stereo Typing, it sucks in and out of games.

[ahenobarbi]

In any case, it seems that the "always evil" thing, well, means always evil. Like, it's totally impossible to find a non-evil black dragon regardless of its upbringing according to RAW.

Not true. According to MM (see Alignment in glossary) "Always" means that creature is born with the indicated alignment but it's possible for individuals to change it.

[Snowbluff]

There are spells for fixing alignment. Like Sanctify the Wicked.

[silverwolfer]

Seems my humor was not appreciated


What about dousing the egg in holy water and calling it a day?

Am sure there is some sort of mumbo jumbo ritual to prevent an evil creature being born pure evil to atlest have a choice?

[Redhat Mike]

There is an easy way to solve this problem.If the baby black dragon is evil just get a spray bottle fill it up with half water half spite evil.Whenever it shows any evil signs of being evil just spray it once or twice and say "bad dragon shame on you" and it will be alignment broken soon enough.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not true. According to MM (see Alignment in glossary) "Always" means that creature is born with the indicated alignment but it's possible for individuals to change it.

I'm pretty sure having it raised by a silver dragon or a temple of a good deity would probably count as an appropriate circumstance for a differing alignment.

[Manly Man]

I'm pretty sure having it raised by a silver dragon or a temple of a good deity would probably count as an appropriate circumstance for a differing alignment.

Especially a silver dragon. They're known for being calm and patient, and about as close to pacifists as a dragon can be. One of them would have the most to teach a black wyrmling.

Ooh, high-level adventure idea! The PCs slay a red dragon who happened to be a mother, and take the eggs. If the eggs are kept instead of destroyed, on the way back to the nearest city that would take such things as dragon eggs they repeatedly encounter a Silverbrow woman who at first tries to reason with them for the eggs, and if they refuse, she periodically pesters them until they either give her the eggs or they're sold. If the latter comes to be, she reveals her true form as a silver dragon and forces the PCs on a rescue mission to recover the eggs and bring them to her so that she can raise them herself.

[KnightOfV]

@ Redhat Mike

Heh, Alignment broken. That made me grin. :smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

I've got to say that as a Paladin I would absolutely try to rescue the egg and even hatch it and bring it up in a Lawful Good environment. It's at least a worthy endeavor, even if it doesn't turn out.