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View Full Version : Relative power levels between tabletop gaming systems



Morph Bark
2012-09-11, 04:26 AM
Recently I saw this demotivator in the D&D Demotivators thread [link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13877752#post13877752)]:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9853/gutsrelativity.jpg

So I was wondering: how true is this? And how does it hold up when comparing other gaming systems?

One's I'm particularly interested in seeing compared:
D&D 3.5
Mutants and Masterminds
New World of Darkness
Exalted
(Strands of) FATE
Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
7th Sea
Dungeon: The Dragoning 40,000 7th Edition

Of course, there are many, many other tabletop gaming systems, but I don't know them all, so feel free to compare to more than just these.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 05:20 AM
D&D is a bit special, I think, in that it's powerlevel is very different between classes. Fighters start weak and get stronger, but never really world-breaking. Wizards start with more magic than some systems ever have and only go up from there.

FATE is an interesting case. On the one hand, fate points can do almost anything, but they are a player power, not a character power. The character themselves are competent, but they never get much that enables them to act beyond the local scale.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-11, 07:11 AM
Eh... FATE is more of a framework than a game system. Fate-based systems can differ from each other much more than, say, d20-based systems do. The framework itself has very few "rules", most of which actually being more suggestions than actual demands. You can talk about existing fate-based systems like the Dresden Files or Diaspora, but you can make one yourself where characters are at any power level you desire without having to make any changes to the framework itself.

Jack of Spades
2012-09-11, 07:18 AM
Well, in World of Darkness you start pretty damn weak if you're playing by the book. I'd say that a NWoD mortal starts out quite a bit weaker than in any other game. A starting vampire or werewolf starts out about equal to a level 1 sorcerer in DnD by virtue of the free powers.

But then again, depending on which template you start with, power level is all over the place.

It's something like:
Mortals < Changing Breeds < Werewolves = Vampires < Prometheans < Mages < Fae

Then again, most of that opinion is based on a weird mixture of Old World and New, so I may be horribly wrong.

SiderealDreams
2012-09-11, 07:45 AM
Well, in World of Darkness you start pretty damn weak if you're playing by the book. I'd say that a NWoD mortal starts out quite a bit weaker than in any other game. A starting vampire or werewolf starts out about equal to a level 1 sorcerer in DnD by virtue of the free powers.

But then again, depending on which template you start with, power level is all over the place.

It's something like:
Mortals < Changing Breeds < Werewolves = Vampires < Prometheans < Mages < Fae

Then again, most of that opinion is based on a weird mixture of Old World and New, so I may be horribly wrong.

The general consensus on splat power is roughly from bottom to top: mortals-minor templates(some Hunters, ghouls,psychics,etc)-Vampire/Werewolf-Promeatheans-Changelings-Sin-Eaters-Mages.

Man on Fire
2012-09-11, 08:07 AM
>Implying Guts wouldn't win.

Also, this thread is bond tu turn into another pointless Cain vs God Emperor debate.

Mono Vertigo
2012-09-11, 08:13 AM
Yep, in NWoD, the power levels are quite low. Not helping any, is the fact that many things can and WILL kill you. Fights are meant to be short, few human(oid)s can withstand more than a handful of hits, and firearms are lethal (in every sense). Which is quite realistic.
The most common exceptions to this are werewolves who heal fast enough to prolong combat, and vampires who don't care much about gun wounds (though they have plenty other weaknesses). Oh, and mages. A well-prepared one has a power level much closer to D&D or M&M.
To clarify, in comparison, True Fae (the inhuman antagonists, among which is the strongest being to receive official stats in that system) have a power level that wouldn't be too out of place in Exalted. Tons of health, huge powers, weaknesses that are hard to discover, let alone exploit, and the very fact most of them can afford to be killed once or twice. They're common in that all Changelings personally met them, but very few are meant to even attempt to confront them in any way. Even mages, I think, would have a hard time killing one - temporarily.


Long story short: in NWoD, mortals are pretty much D&D peasants. Unless they get their hands on guns/fire/silver. Everyone else is weak. Except mages. And the True Fae can eat all of those for breakfast (except entities that are too strong to be statted anyway).

deuterio12
2012-09-11, 12:14 PM
D&D is a bit special, I think, in that it's powerlevel is very different between classes. Fighters start weak and get stronger, but never really world-breaking. Wizards start with more magic than some systems ever have and only go up from there.

And if you pimped an Hulking Hurler, which isn't even a caster, you could be throwing small planets before epic levels, which is drastically stronger than anything the Hulk has ever acomplished.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 12:54 PM
Yup, entirely true. As I said, D&D is all over the map. After all, the benchmark for true brokenness is Pun-pun, the level 1 kobold paladin and greater diety of everything. He could certainly give high level exalts a run for their money. If the rules are read liberally enough, he has such abilities as "Win against exalts [su]" and "Perfect abilities fail automatically in all of creation[ex]"

Side question: who is Guts fighting in that picture, there?

Friv
2012-09-11, 01:48 PM
Side question: who is Guts fighting in that picture, there?

Pretty sure that it's the Hulk.

awa
2012-09-11, 02:12 PM
dnd is hard
for example personaly I would put connan at roughly level 6ish depending on how you decided to build him. I have also seen a build of him that was level 25.

until pepole decide what hp and so on actually represent you cant make that kind of decsion. Also how do the powers interact does hulk drop instantly to a sudden maximised shivering touch cause he has no spell resistance?

what about a calm emotions hes supertough but hows his will save

Eldan
2012-09-11, 02:16 PM
There are a few benchmarks in D&D. We know how much damage weapons do. Skill checks give us more or less a level guideline for various athletes and other professionals. We can compare a few real-life things like weather effects. But yes, it's difficult.

SiderealDreams
2012-09-11, 02:19 PM
One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

SiderealDreams
2012-09-11, 02:21 PM
Yep, in NWoD, the power levels are quite low. Not helping any, is the fact that many things can and WILL kill you. Fights are meant to be short, few human(oid)s can withstand more than a handful of hits, and firearms are lethal (in every sense). Which is quite realistic.
The most common exceptions to this are werewolves who heal fast enough to prolong combat, and vampires who don't care much about gun wounds (though they have plenty other weaknesses). Oh, and mages. A well-prepared one has a power level much closer to D&D or M&M.
To clarify, in comparison, True Fae (the inhuman antagonists, among which is the strongest being to receive official stats in that system) have a power level that wouldn't be too out of place in Exalted. Tons of health, huge powers, weaknesses that are hard to discover, let alone exploit, and the very fact most of them can afford to be killed once or twice. They're common in that all Changelings personally met them, but very few are meant to even attempt to confront them in any way. Even mages, I think, would have a hard time killing one - temporarily.


Long story short: in NWoD, mortals are pretty much D&D peasants. Unless they get their hands on guns/fire/silver. Everyone else is weak. Except mages. And the True Fae can eat all of those for breakfast (except entities that are too strong to be statted anyway).

Check out Imperial Mysteries if you get the chance. Though it's doubtful that a number of any game lines are going to get Tier 4 treatments in the sense that Mage and Changeling did.

Geostationary
2012-09-11, 02:21 PM
As for high-powered systems, there's also Nobilis, in which the typical Noble is generally around some degree of elder exalt power-wise at any given time, without trying to optimize for a given task. They're also harder to compare because of the peculiarities of how fighting/wounding them works. I'd peg it somewhere on par or above Exalted in terms of power levels, depending on how you figure it.

I'm not too familiar with M&M, but can't that get arbitrarily powerful to a degree, as it is a point-based system?

Eldan
2012-09-11, 02:39 PM
One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

Eh. It assumes that the housecat has murderous intent towards humans and uses its superior stealth to instantly go for the jugular.

Which, honestly, does sound that unlikely. I mean, I imagine a cat hiding in a bush and leaping for your throat would be rather deadly. And how would you defend yourself? By grabbing it and keeping it away from you. Grapple checks. Just as you would in the D&D rules, since cats are tiny.

Mutants and Masterminds can be quite silly. Orat least 2nd edition, which is the one I know, can. It is based off the normal d20 framework, but adds superpowers on top of that. Immortality with no weakness is possible. As is moving faster than light or performing thousands of actions per turn. My mid-level psion could use aircraft carriers as improvised telekinetic bludgeoning weapons, and with a few points more, you can use the moon.

The key to the system is the range/effect/etc. advancement table: abilities scale exponentially as you invest points into them.

Tvtyrant
2012-09-11, 02:42 PM
Eh. It assumes that the housecat has murderous intent towards humans and uses its superior stealth to instantly go for the jugular.

Which, honestly, does sound that unlikely. I mean, I imagine a cat hiding in a bush and leaping for your throat would be rather deadly. And how would you defend yourself? By grabbing it and keeping it away from you. Grapple checks. Just as you would in the D&D rules, since cats are tiny.

Mutants and Masterminds can be quite silly. Orat least 2nd edition, which is the one I know, can. It is based off the normal d20 framework, but adds superpowers on top of that. Immortality with no weakness is possible. As is moving faster than light or performing thousands of actions per turn. My mid-level psion could use aircraft carriers as improvised telekinetic bludgeoning weapons, and with a few points more, you can use the moon.

The key to the system is the range/effect/etc. advancement table: abilities scale exponentially as you invest points into them.
If only there was a "punt monster" ability. :smallamused:

awa
2012-09-11, 03:36 PM
also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.
just like with dnd example i have seen power level 10 superman builds and I have seen power level 45 superman builds. the power level of mutants and masterminds is even harder to pin down than dnd you could make a charecter strong enough to throw a planet but to weak to grapple a house cat.

Beleriphon
2012-09-11, 03:57 PM
also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.

Its a bit closer than hardly being comparable. If you wanted to keep things roughly comparable a starting PL10 150point M&M character is certainly comparable to a 14th or 15th level D&D character in terms of what they can accomplish on an individual scale. As it stands though its actually trivially easy to build powers that can nuke planets using a PL1 character.

If you use all 150 of your power points at PL10 you can make a character that is completely immune to all damage. For considerably fewer points you can also restore the dead to life, so I'd say its a pretty reasonable comparison given the types of effects that easily attainable.


just like with dnd example i have seen power level 10 superman builds and I have seen power level 45 superman builds. the power level of mutants and masterminds is even harder to pin down than dnd you could make a charecter strong enough to throw a planet but to weak to grapple a house cat.

This is true, and very funny.

awa
2012-09-11, 04:41 PM
remember a 17 level wizard is vastly more powerful then a 16th level one that's when you get the real broken stuff like shape-change and wish and gate to name a few.

Mono Vertigo
2012-09-11, 04:43 PM
Check out Imperial Mysteries if you get the chance. Though it's doubtful that a number of any game lines are going to get Tier 4 treatments in the sense that Mage and Changeling did.
Oh, yeah, forgot about the archmages and such because I don't have the books, sorry.
So yeah, OP, these guys don't eat everyone else for breakfast, they only turn them into lawn chairs and sit in them to perfect their tan after chaining the sun's power.
Duels between them and the True Fae should still be very interesting to watch.

Razanir
2012-09-11, 04:46 PM
Yup, entirely true. As I said, D&D is all over the map. After all, the benchmark for true brokenness is Pun-pun, the level 1 kobold paladin and greater diety of everything. He could certainly give high level exalts a run for their money. If the rules are read liberally enough, he has such abilities as "Win against exalts [su]" and "Perfect abilities fail automatically in all of creation[ex]"


One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

Commoner 1 < Housecats < Any 3.5e PC class 1 < Any 4e class 1 < Pun-Pun

No seriously. I used an online character generator for 4e once, just to see what characters were like. Without even trying, I gave my level 1 4e wizard more health than a level 1 3.5e barbarian optimized for hp

Eldan
2012-09-11, 04:53 PM
You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 04:55 PM
You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 04:56 PM
You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

Morty
2012-09-11, 04:58 PM
Commoner 1 < Housecats < Any 3.5e PC class 1 < Any 4e class 1 < Pun-Pun

No seriously. I used an online character generator for 4e once, just to see what characters were like. Without even trying, I gave my level 1 4e wizard more health than a level 1 3.5e barbarian optimized for hp

I hope you realize that the scale of hitpoints in 4th edition is much higher. It's like comparing a White Wolf game to D&D and claiming everyone is handicapped and mentally challenged because the average score is 2.

Morph Bark
2012-09-11, 05:12 PM
As for high-powered systems, there's also Nobilis, in which the typical Noble is generally around some degree of elder exalt power-wise at any given time, without trying to optimize for a given task. They're also harder to compare because of the peculiarities of how fighting/wounding them works. I'd peg it somewhere on par or above Exalted in terms of power levels, depending on how you figure it.

Wow, even higher than Exalted?

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?


also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.

Well, here you're comparing Epic Wizards to M&M characters, but what about Epic Tier 3-or-lower D&D characters?

Totally Guy
2012-09-11, 05:40 PM
Somebody needs to make the Axe Cop roleplaying game so that the characters can start at the highest possible level of power.

Knaight
2012-09-11, 05:48 PM
Well, here you're comparing Epic Wizards to M&M characters, but what about Epic Tier 3-or-lower D&D characters?

It depends on the M&M character. If you go for a martial artist archetype with relatively subdued powers, the D&D level and PL are actually fairly similar, with D&D level gradually outpacing PL. If you go with a flying, rock solid, blast heavy character, an epic low tier character will probably be outpaced in the mid teens of PL.

Giarc
2012-09-11, 05:51 PM
I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?


In Scion, players start out a bit weaker than exalts at Hero, but become more powerful by Demigod and vastly more powerful by God. At the height of power, they can use ultimate attributes which can do things like knock anybody down to incapacitated with a single blow or crack open the crust of the world. And then there are the Avatar powers of the various purviews they can get access to where they BECOME said purview. At that point, everything they do actually becomes a narrative effect.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 05:59 PM
Wow, even higher than Exalted?

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?

In Nobilis, players are Anthropomorphic personifications of abstract concepts. If you've read some Pratchett, that may give you an idea. Though they aren't really the top-level. They are parts of a greater personification sent to the mortal world to watch over their concept, basically. Concepts can be anything, really, no matter how silly.

You start out able to move stars and conquer nations, and it only goes up from there. Since everyone is a god, more or less, you fight someone by weakening their aspect in the world. So if you fight the god of sunglasses, be ready to wage war on the fashion industry.

Eldan
2012-09-11, 06:05 PM
Wow, even higher than Exalted?

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?

In Nobilis, players are Anthropomorphic personifications of abstract concepts. If you've read some Pratchett, that may give you an idea. Though they aren't really the top-level. They are parts of a greater personification sent to the mortal world to watch over their concept, basically. Concepts can be anything, really, no matter how silly.

You start out able to move stars and conquer nations, and it only goes up from there. Since everyone is a god, more or less, you fight someone by weakening their aspect in the world. So if you fight the god of sunglasses, be ready to wage war on the fashion industry.

Razanir
2012-09-11, 06:08 PM
You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

Okay, so I'll admit I can't quite compare directly across systems, but 4e still has a higher average power level than 3.5e.

awa
2012-09-11, 06:16 PM
id say your forgetting about wealth by level epic wealth by level is crazy particularly when you get into home made items.

also remember mutants and mastermind has caps on a lot of stuff (admittedly you can buy pass them by abusing the system but pun still breaks his game harder.)

evasion +mettle and saves of 20 or higher, +ac over 30 basically makes you immune to any attack. (my math may be a little bit off but my point is that becuase their are caps at character creation on every thing dnd is going to have the edge when were talking about an epic character vrs a newbie mutant and mastermind character.

(edit in reply to morph bark)

Morph Bark
2012-09-11, 06:17 PM
Okay, so I'll admit I can't quite compare directly across systems, but 4e still has a higher average power level than 3.5e.

Addendum for you: at the low levels at least.

Added Emphasis for others: average power level.

Morph Bark
2012-09-12, 07:59 AM
So, since initially I thought FATE was a game itself, rather than a system for it, I changed it to Strands of Fate, which I have and some friends do as well, though I'm the only one to not have yet read through it. Any opinions on that one?

I also quite want to play Dungeons: The Dragoning 40,000 7th Edition, so I'm naturally curious about that (and its other "component" games, Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and 7th Sea).

Eldan
2012-09-12, 08:05 AM
Dark Heresy (the only 40k game I've played) is difficult to quantify. Characters are squishy in the beginning, but that may mainly be because they fight things far above human power quite often, and even normal cultists can come equipped with SciFi weaponry. From what I've seen of Rogue Trader, characters aren't even that powerful themselves, but they command mile-long spaceships, including thousands of crewmen and the wealth of nations.


Oh, how about Shadowrun? Players themselves range from competent to scary competent, with wizards especially getting some crazy stuff. But the true power, I think, is in the equipment. I played a drone rigger in a one-shot, and he came equipped with two man-sized, machine-gun equipped helicopter drones and eight dog-sized spider drones with various weaponry (more machine guns, shotguns, utility equipment, sniper rifles) and an armoured garbage truck with a hidden missile turret. He sat outside covering all the exits and windows to an entire building by himself while the party went in to hunt. And the equipment can get much crazier than that.

Beowulf DW
2012-09-12, 02:39 PM
In Scion, players start out a bit weaker than exalts at Hero, but become more powerful by Demigod and vastly more powerful by God. At the height of power, they can use ultimate attributes which can do things like knock anybody down to incapacitated with a single blow or crack open the crust of the world. And then there are the Avatar powers of the various purviews they can get access to where they BECOME said purview. At that point, everything they do actually becomes a narrative effect.

There was one point in one of the longer-running Scion games that I played where my friend's character became a force of nature that didn't have to try to hit anything, it simply died. My character managed to, quite literally, punch through the Fourth Wall and erase two dots of legend from the BBEG's character sheet.

awa
2012-09-12, 04:10 PM
in regards to dnd compared to many other system i have played one thing it has does diffrently is power growth a starting dnd charecter is extremly weak a epic one can fight gods. few other games (i said few not none) have that degree of power growth. (at least in my experience)

NichG
2012-09-12, 06:46 PM
I played in a campaign that was basically this discussion. The campaign had a D&D 3.5 base, but progressed through various arcs, where in each arc a more powerful universe was revealed (namely, something inspired by another game system with a higher power range).

It was sort of a metagame commentary from the GM on D&D 3.5's ability to scale given players with a real reason to optimize.

Roughly speaking I think the settings in order were something like:

d20 Modern -> Our 3.5 base -> oWoD Vampire -> Exalted/Mage (we didn't see much Mage) -> RIFTS/M&M-> Amber -> Nobilis -> The crazy stuff we finally ended up making in order to survive as D&D characters in Nobilis.

I'd have to ask the GM if he had a specific ordering in mind though, since these were all converted to 3.5-compatible mechanics so it wasn't always obvious what was what. Warhammer, BESM, and Starwars d20 were in there somewhere too, but I can't really pin them down. There was also a homebrew anime system somewhere between RIFTS and Nobilis.

Morph Bark
2012-09-12, 06:56 PM
I played in a campaign that was basically this discussion. The campaign had a D&D 3.5 base, but progressed through various arcs, where in each arc a more powerful universe was revealed (namely, something inspired by another game system with a higher power range).

It was sort of a metagame commentary from the GM on D&D 3.5's ability to scale given players with a real reason to optimize.

Roughly speaking I think the settings in order were something like:

d20 Modern -> Our 3.5 base -> oWoD Vampire -> Exalted/Mage (we didn't see much Mage) -> RIFTS/M&M-> Amber -> Nobilis -> The crazy stuff we finally ended up making in order to survive as D&D characters in Nobilis.

I'd have to ask the GM if he had a specific ordering in mind though, since these were all converted to 3.5-compatible mechanics so it wasn't always obvious what was what. Warhammer, BESM, and Starwars d20 were in there somewhere too, but I can't really pin them down. There was also a homebrew anime system somewhere between RIFTS and Nobilis.

o.o

Do you... do you still have notes on those conversions?

Man on Fire
2012-09-12, 07:00 PM
Earthdawn - All Adepts are using magic in some way, you can advance different classes at the same time and level (gaining level in character in Earthdawn is one thing, but advancing to higher circle in your dyscipline is another) so, for example, Evel Queen Alachia is on higher circle in 3 different dysciplines (basically being equivalent of 20 level level tristalt) and is at very high circle in another one. And even single circle is quite powerful compared to D&D, their equivalent of fighter at higher levels may make 25 attack rolls in one round, plus additional attack for each enemy he killed (which means he can single-handenly murder all the opponents before wizard will even get to cast a single spell) and has his magical abilities on top of that. Generally, not counting epic levels, I dare to say Earthdawn guys EAT everything from D&D for breakfeast. Also, they fight Horrors - monsters that would make half of D&D bestiary pee itself from fear - on daily basis and their Dragons have pretty much golike power.

gooddragon1
2012-09-12, 07:06 PM
Pun-pun is not the benchmark of broken mechanics. Pun-pun is the limit of broken mechanics (the ability to do absolutely anything). Unless another system can do that within the rules it does not beat the upper power limit of 3.5. It might beat the average power limit or limit without pun-pun but never outright beat 3.5 entirely. Best case scenario is a tie.

Dusk Eclipse
2012-09-12, 07:22 PM
Wow, even higher than Exalted?

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?



Well, here you're comparing Epic Wizards to M&M characters, but what about Epic Tier 3-or-lower D&D characters?

Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage , Healer (both tier 4 btw) and even the adept have ways to get epic magic.... yes I know I am missing the point :smalltongue: IIRC Epic manifesting exist so I guess Psywars and Psyrogues can also be on comparable levels.

Non magic-using classes are shafted at epic, most of their offense and defenses are gained through magic items so they are generally more subdued on their power (though an Epic Hulking with an Epic feat can throw ANYTHING (including planets) into anything he can see, how about throwing your foes into the sun? Or even further...how about proxima Centauri?) Not sure if any other system has something comparable.

Since I haven't played a lot of different systems I can't really compare; but I feel Anima Beyond Fantasy while seemingly quite powerful can't compare to other systems, for example "Delevi Deus Anima, the God Soul Exterminator"* is the strongest and highest level Ki dominion technique and can "only" affect a 5 KM radius . I am not really familiar with high level magic or psionics in the system; but I am sure there are spells/powers with a similar scale.

*For the record, as with all creation system it is possible to create stronger techniques than the ones printed; but I am not counting them since the DM can always say no.

NichG
2012-09-12, 07:54 PM
In a sort of weird meta way, Adventure and Trinity probably beat out all of these for upper power cap including D&D. Pun-pun can have any power that can be defined in the system, but Adventure (as well as Trinity) has 'player powers' in the form of dramatic editing. Its at most a four point expenditure in Adventure to say 'eh, Pun-Pun never existed' and it doesn't matter if your character is alive, dead, erased from time, forbidden from knowing about Pun-Pun, etc.

Edit:
Now that I think of it, Pun-Pun is a really sad story. He knows everything it is possible to know within the game, so he knows of the fourth wall, but he also knows he can do nothing about it. Furthermore, he knows that because of all of his power, he has fated himself to never actually be played at a table and therefore can never be so close to the light of the fourth wall as those weaker beings who are actually played by real humans, beings whose existence transcends the 'thought-prison' that is his inevitable home.

Also, to Morph Bark, I never did have those notes. Perfect Defenses and Perfect Attacks were the 'big things' when dealing with Exalted characters in that campaign. We saw vampires do the blood point pumping thing which could get gross, blood point healing which was okay, and celerity was particularly nasty in the D&D action economy. My rough guess was that Vampire health levels were roughly 10-15hp each, and Exalted health levels were closer to 100hp each. RIFTS stuff just had ridiculous numbers (fighting stuff that could deal and take 'megadamage') - I think it was something like 1000 to 1 or 10000 to 1 for megadamage in D&D hp but I don't actually know the conversion that was used.

Beleriphon
2012-09-12, 09:00 PM
RIFTS stuff just had ridiculous numbers (fighting stuff that could deal and take 'megadamage') - I think it was something like 1000 to 1 or 10000 to 1 for megadamage in D&D hp but I don't actually know the conversion that was used.

Its 1000 HP/Structural Damage to 1 Mega Damage. This is why I love Glitterboys, 6d20x20 Mega Damage. The sad part is there's monsters that can take several of those hits and they're expected to fight dudes with like 25 hitpoints.

Morph Bark
2012-09-14, 11:47 AM
In a sort of weird meta way, Adventure and Trinity probably beat out all of these for upper power cap including D&D. Pun-pun can have any power that can be defined in the system, but Adventure (as well as Trinity) has 'player powers' in the form of dramatic editing. Its at most a four point expenditure in Adventure to say 'eh, Pun-Pun never existed' and it doesn't matter if your character is alive, dead, erased from time, forbidden from knowing about Pun-Pun, etc.

I see, so basically a kind of meta-gaming part of the game sort of thing?


RIFTS stuff just had ridiculous numbers (fighting stuff that could deal and take 'megadamage') - I think it was something like 1000 to 1 or 10000 to 1 for megadamage in D&D hp but I don't actually know the conversion that was used.

Ah, so is RIFTS also very high-end level, or is that the only thing, due to nukes or whatever they have?

NichG
2012-09-14, 12:08 PM
I see, so basically a kind of meta-gaming part of the game sort of thing?

Kind of. Its basically there to ensure dramatic conventions and to give players agency to control the scene and even bits of the plot. For Adventure, you get Inspiration points and you can spend them in-character to activate powers, or out of character to perform dramatic editing. IIRC its something like:


1 point: Minor offscreen change. For instance, "Meanwhile, our NPC allies discover a clue as to where we are being imprisoned."
2 points: Major offscreen change. For instance, "I know a secret exit to this dungeon complex, we just have to get there!"
3 points: Minor onscreen. "There's suddenly a chandelier for me to swing from!"
4 points: Major onscreen. "The army arrives and starts shelling the area."

You can generally decrease the cost by 1 point for accepting a 'plot complication', which is basically 'you get what you want, but something goes wrong or differently, or there are consequences later that negatively affect you in particular'

The GM can always say no on the basis of the change having too big 'plot ramifications', but its generally encouraged to leave that for things like 'yeah, major offscreen, the BBEG dies' kinds of things.



Ah, so is RIFTS also very high-end level, or is that the only thing, due to nukes or whatever they have?

I've never played RIFTS in particular but I get the impression that mostly it has a wide power spectrum. I guess part of it is that vehicles really do vehicle-scale damage, and its utterly lethal to footsoldiers, so its not a system where you're really intended to fight a mech on foot or something, but again I'm not entirely sure since thats more or less what we did with our grossly overpowered D&D 3.5 characters :smallsmile:

gooddragon1
2012-09-14, 01:44 PM
Actually, pun pun has any power that can be worded/imagined even if it isn't strictly defined by the system.

The text is: Grant himself an ability.

That's it. Not: Grant himself an ability within a set of constraints.

So you need at least the ability to do anything to tie with that level of power.

(That quasi-metagaming example provided is an "in-game" and worded ability which makes it fair grounds for both duplication and immunity)

NichG
2012-09-14, 07:01 PM
Actually, pun pun has any power that can be worded/imagined even if it isn't strictly defined by the system.

The text is: Grant himself an ability.

That's it. Not: Grant himself an ability within a set of constraints.

So you need at least the ability to do anything to tie with that level of power.

(That quasi-metagaming example provided is an "in-game" and worded ability which makes it fair grounds for both duplication and immunity)

The set of constraints here is really a metagame set of constraints though. Lets imagine Pun-Pun with dramatic editing powers and someone else, lets call him Bill the Unlucky, with dramatic editing powers. Dramatic editing powers are explicitly subject to GM approval and whether or not they have 'plot ramifications' - they don't exist solely in-world. Which means that you have to actually ask the question that is difficult when discussing TO things: What would the GM allow?

Regardless of whatever abilities Pun-Pun can construct within the system, it is impossible for him to construct an ability that forces a real person outside of the game to do one thing or another. That is because he doesn't actually exist.

KnightOfV
2012-09-14, 10:08 PM
Since the OP mentioned it, 7th Sea is easily the weakest system I've come across in terms of raw character power. Characters are all roughly on the level of Jack Sparrow or Ezio in Assassin's Creed, magic use is almost entirely utility and rare to be able to kill with, and the system is built upon dramatic mano-a-mano swordfights rather than planet destroying weaponry, summoning demons, and immortal characters.

Most characters resemble low-mid level 3.5 fighters, rogues, and bards. I think it looks like lots of fun, and only wish the rest of my gaming group had been willing to give it a run.

Knaight
2012-09-14, 11:17 PM
Since the OP mentioned it, 7th Sea is easily the weakest system I've come across in terms of raw character power. Characters are all roughly on the level of Jack Sparrow or Ezio in Assassin's Creed, magic use is almost entirely utility and rare to be able to kill with, and the system is built upon dramatic mano-a-mano swordfights rather than planet destroying weaponry, summoning demons, and immortal characters.

This still puts it way above a whole host of systems, and comparable to a whole bunch more. Qin is more or less at the same level, Legends of the Wulin isn't much higher, typical point GURPS games are a hair lower, etc. Then you have stuff like Dread, Nemesis, or Dead Inside where the characters wish they were anywhere near 7th sea level.

IW Judicator
2012-09-14, 11:40 PM
Actually, the conversion for Mega-Damage in RIFTS was 100 to 1, with just about every class starting with a set of Mega-Damage armor and a Mega-Damage weapon (or at least the funding to acquire them). Because of the way the system works, a 'standard' weapon such as a regular sword or even a modern machine gun or high end rifle would be just shy of worthless. Effectively, you're running around in armor that makes you a walking tank with a weapon that will legitimately vaporize non-MDC cars, buildings, what have you. Note that this is the baseline, a level 1 human with lousy skills and attributes. If you have good to great or better attributes than all hell breaks loose (and heaven help you if you use a non-human race and class together as one). And, of course, even all that is ignoring magic and psionics. In essence, RIFTS is pretty out there in terms of over the top power.

SowZ
2012-09-15, 01:01 AM
Okay, so I'll admit I can't quite compare directly across systems, but 4e still has a higher average power level than 3.5e.

I'd say by Paragon tier, full casters would still be better off in 3.5 just for the flexibility of their powers and how many problems they can solve out of combat, except that high level spells are still stronger IN combat with 3.5.

As has been said, at low levels, yeah, everybody is stronger and survivability is higher, too. And martial classes are way better off.

For Scion, I'd say a starting character who has his boons and such is going to be stronger than a starting vampire character or something but still should watch out for mortals with guns and such. Never played one into the other tiers.

Champions is strong, with starting characters who can easily bench press tanks.

Eldan
2012-09-15, 08:24 AM
This still puts it way above a whole host of systems, and comparable to a whole bunch more. Qin is more or less at the same level, Legends of the Wulin isn't much higher, typical point GURPS games are a hair lower, etc. Then you have stuff like Dread, Nemesis, or Dead Inside where the characters wish they were anywhere near 7th sea level.

Or Call of Cthulhu, where most of the time the characters wish they had weapons that could hurt anything. Or any weapons at all, really.

awa
2012-09-15, 11:00 AM
except even if you can edit the game with dm approval pun pun just edits the game. you spend a point and say oh a chandelier was their all along pun pun gives him self the ability to make chandeliers as a free action. any thing you can create with your dm editing pun can do as well only his powers which have no such limitations on them.

SowZ
2012-09-15, 12:30 PM
except even if you can edit the game with dm approval pun pun just edits the game. you spend a point and say oh a chandelier was their all along pun pun gives him self the ability to make chandeliers as a free action. any thing you can create with your dm editing pun can do as well only his powers which have no such limitations on them.

When we are trying to compare power levels between characters, though, I think we should stay within reason to have any kind of meaningful discussion. Pit one character against another where both characters are designed at least somewhat close to designer intent.