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Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 09:51 AM
Been a long time since I posted, but I finally have some stable internet. In my downtime....I started playing Star Wars Saga and I've come to a mental roadblock. Because the players are attempting to take over a Star Destroyer and it was completely unexpected >.<

Alright, a bit of background. The players are all level 9, and there are three active players now....one of whom is the source of a bit of frustration for me. Anyways, one of the characters is what I refer to as a Force-Canon; she's a powerful neutral-Force user. Her Use The Force skill is super high, but otherwise she's pretty well balanced. The second character is a Deathwatch Bunker Mandalorian, more based on Boba Fett than anything else. Typical solider really, good in armor and with big guns and the like.

Then....there's the other Mandalorian, who's been giving me headaches in trying to challenge the party since the beginning of the game. His character is super optimized on defense. It's literally all this character is, a massively high reflex save. His fortitude isn't bad either, and his will is okay....and he also has a feat that gives him +5 to all saves vs. Force users. Not that big of a hurdle, but it's annoying sometimes. Anyways, my issue with this character in particular is my inability to....well, do much of anything to him. Short of a nat 20, most things can not hit him. His character's defense is that ridiculous, but it's all legit. He also has the Evasion feat, so area-attacks aren't the way to go.

The players are all in the Force Unleashed timeline, and I've done all I can to instill a fear of the Empire and the fact that the players shouldn't cross them arbitrarily. But because of this one character being nigh invincible, they continually piss all over the Empire's doorstep. Yes, it put the other characters in danger, but the Mandalorian will pretty much survive anything I throw at him. At the end of last session, the PCs ended up on a Star Destroyer with the mission of retrieving the spice shipment Han Solo abandoned. They were all in agreement of sneaking through it, until the super-character declared he was going to take it over.

I have no doubt he could, too. It seems like nothing I can throw at him, even in mass numbers, can be a threat....let alone a challenge. Even the strongest Stormtrooper could only hit him on a nat 20....the player has proved this before when he killed everyone in an Imperial garrison. Single-handed. Just to show he could do it. Yeah, he took a bit of damage, but it was absolutely nothing to him. And in my mind, there's no WAY a single soldier should be able to take on fifty something soldiers in an open firefight and walk away. Crappy stormtroopers or not.

So I guess I'm asking for general advice on how to challenge the party....anything strong enough to challenge the Mandalorian will wipe the rest of the party, and anything that could challenge the rest of the party will be steamrolled by this character in 1-2 rounds. I'm also asking for advice on how to make this Star Destroyer 'dungeon' interesting.

ThiagoMartell
2012-09-11, 09:54 AM
What about gas grenades and poisoned drinks?

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 10:04 AM
What about gas grenades and poisoned drinks?

I should have mentioned above that his Mechanics and Medicine skills are as maxed as they can be.

His Mandalorian armor, which he went out of his way to get the best version and then upgrade as high as he could with a massive Mechanics skill, is vacuum-sealed with 24 hours of life support. So gas grenades are out....he lives by the Mando'a creed of never removing armor except to bathe, too.

As far as poison drinks, that could work if the Empire sent an assassin after him. It would take a good poison to overcome that fortitude of his, but I suppose it could be done. He'd take care of it with his Medicine skill pretty quickly, but it might be a minor annoyance :p

hamlet
2012-09-11, 10:18 AM
Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

Aren't the bad guys in control of 99.99% of the thing? Yeah, might be bad to run a frontal assault, but have the bad guy engineers seal off the area where the good guys are and then vent the atmosphere in it. Problem solves itself.

Or, if you dont' want to TPK the party, grenades can be your friend. Or just pump knock-out gas into the place for upwards of 24 hours. I'm sure that the bad guys can figure out when the good guys stop moving, even if it takes longer than expected.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-09-11, 10:24 AM
I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures? I've done so in D&D and Mutants and Masterminds, and it lets large numbers of minions remain a challenge at higher levels. (It also makes it much easier to run large battles).

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

Maquise
2012-09-11, 10:33 AM
Send Darth Vader after him.

He doesn't actually need to fight them, just appear. I'm not that familiar with SAGA, but if I were playing, that's all it would take to scare me straight.

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 10:37 AM
Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

Aren't the bad guys in control of 99.99% of the thing? Yeah, might be bad to run a frontal assault, but have the bad guy engineers seal off the area where the good guys are and then vent the atmosphere in it. Problem solves itself.

Or, if you dont' want to TPK the party, grenades can be your friend. Or just pump knock-out gas into the place for upwards of 24 hours. I'm sure that the bad guys can figure out when the good guys stop moving, even if it takes longer than expected.

They're on a Star Destroyer....the Imperial standard capital ship, not the Death Star.

"Join the Empire! Our ships are triangles!"

I like the idea of venting off the atmosphere of the area, but it still wouldn't do much to the problem player (vacuum-sealed armor with 24 hour life support) aside from now being the only player alive. At least the Force-user would have to spend a Force point/Destiny point to stay alive in space....this happened before, I jokingly portrayed it as her going into the Avatar state :p


I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures? I've done so in D&D and Mutants and Masterminds, and it lets large numbers of minions remain a challenge at higher levels. (It also makes it much easier to run large battles).

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

That might be a....really damn good idea, actually. Mass numbers is what the Empire has. So, instead of 20 worthless stormtroopers who individually can't be a threat, make them all a single stat block? I don't know if there's a rule for that in this system, how do you go about doing that in D&D?



Send Darth Vader after him.

He doesn't actually need to fight them, just appear. I'm not that familiar with SAGA, but if I were playing, that's all it would take to scare me straight.

I actually intend to a little later on. The problem I have with Vader's stat block is the same issue I have with most enemies in Star Wars Saga....he seems put together strange. He is, I believe, CR 19, and already I look at his attack bonus and Use The Force bonus and I know he couldn't win against this freaking level 9 character. Oh, he'd do damage and be deadly to everyone else, but I'm fairly certain the Mandalorian would eventually get him out of sheer tenacity. High HP, lightsaber-resistant armor, and a stupid high reflex would save him.

I fully intend on redoing Vader's stats before the players encounter him, or at least add +10 to everything he does. I had to do that with Mara Jade a few sessions back, she at least hit the Mandalorian before toying mercilessly with the other PCs lol.

Lazy Bum
2012-09-11, 10:39 AM
I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures?That's one solution, using the mass combat rules in the Clone Wars book.


Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?That's a better solution.




I have no doubt he could, too. It seems like nothing I can throw at him, even in mass numbers, can be a threat....let alone a challenge. Even the strongest Stormtrooper could only hit him on a nat 20....the player has proved this before when he killed everyone in an Imperial garrison. Single-handed. Just to show he could do it. Yeah, he took a bit of damage, but it was absolutely nothing to him. And in my mind, there's no WAY a single soldier should be able to take on fifty something soldiers in an open firefight and walk away. Crappy stormtroopers or not.
How is he being "overpowered" as an armour-wearer in SAGA? Armour is a chump choice after level 8 or so. Can you post up or recall his character build?

Regardless, a horde of Storm/Naval troopers with auto fire weapons should sort him out. Even if he's only taking half damage from each autofire attack, he's only got so much HP.

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 10:47 AM
That's one solution, using the mass combat rules in the Clone Wars book.

That's a better solution.



How is he being "overpowered" as an armour-wearer in SAGA? Armour is a chump choice after level 8 or so. Can you post up or recall his character build?

Regardless, a horde of Storm/Naval troopers with auto fire weapons should sort him out. Even if he's only taking half damage from each autofire attack, he's only got so much HP.

I apparently need to research this rule :p

He took a Soldier/Mandalorian feat, I forget what it's called exactly. But it allows him to add his level and half his armor bonus, or vise versa as I'm at my college campus right now and don't have his sheet on hand. Either way, it's a good damn feat for someone in armor to have.

And on autofire attacks, characters with evasion take half-damage from a successful area-effect hit, and none if it misses. Evasion is balls-out broken, always take a level in Scout for it! :p

Ranting Fool
2012-09-11, 10:52 AM
Just a thought, but if an unstoppable solider is walking through a very large triangle type ship slowly crushing everything he comes across with no chance of the crew defending against him in a fight.

Wouldn't the crew try one of these tactics?

Seal the threat: Can Star Destroyers chuck down massive blast doors for a large chunk of the ship (Of course leaving all the crew and soldiers to die)

Vent them into space: Not just taking away the air but making a big vacuum sucking everything out into space (along with lots of crew ect) or do the players have boots that make them stick?

Time to abandon ship! We can't beat him! Lets run and set the self destruct!

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 10:58 AM
Just a thought, but if an unstoppable solider is walking through a very large triangle type ship slowly crushing everything he comes across with no chance of the crew defending against him in a fight.

Wouldn't the crew try one of these tactics?

Seal the threat: Can Star Destroyers chuck down massive blast doors for a large chunk of the ship (Of course leaving all the crew and soldiers to die)

Vent them into space: Not just taking away the air but making a big vacuum sucking everything out into space (along with lots of crew ect) or do the players have boots that make them stick?

Time to abandon ship! We can't beat him! Lets run and set the self destruct!

Ah, yes. Self-destruct will be how I keep the players from getting ahold of one of the strongest ships in the game :D

As far as sealing them off or venting them into space, I plan on doing one or both but I feel like it'll only slow them down. Which is fine, that's a worthy challenge. The two Mandalorians can totally survive space, and the Force-user can by, well....using the Force for a bit. As far as sealing them off, they'd eventually blast through....but this gives the Empire more time to figure out how to stop them. I like it :p

Squark
2012-09-11, 10:58 AM
Aid another stacks, if memory serves. So, several Storm troopers working in tandem should be able to reduce his reflex defense down to a managable level. Also, the Clone wars campaign guide had rules for squads as a single enemy.

Lastly, nothings to stop you from re-optimizing Vader's stats. :smallwink:

But yeah, first thing to do is talk to the player.

Hazzardevil
2012-09-11, 10:58 AM
Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

No, their taking over a large star cruiser, one of these:
http://good-wallpapers.com/pictures/3339/imperial_star_destroyer.jpg
Only has a few thousand men on it, a few hundred if you play star wars battlefront 2.



Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

Seriously, do this, perhaps ask him to make a new sheet? Keep the character but he has new mechanics.

Actana
2012-09-11, 11:02 AM
If I recall correctly, standard stormtroopers automatically succeed in aiding another with a ranged attack. An easy and effective solution is to have a few harder enemies with stormtroopers backing them up, effectively stacking loads of +2 bonuses from the aid action. The bonus given is typed so it stacks too. I've found it the primary way to make lower level mooks relevant at higher levels. You need to be point blank to automatically succeed in aiding, but it's not hard, given the overly long ranges of weapons in SWSE anyway.

Failing that, they're in a Star Destroyer. Have them enter a cargo bay. Whoops, there are suddenly hundreds of stormtroopers there. And at least a few of them will roll a 20. Will likely feel very cheap, and I'd endorse the former option of aid actions over rolling a ton of dice.

Squark
2012-09-11, 11:06 AM
Actually, since aid another in saga can be used to penalize an enemy... All you need is a few storm troopers each giving the player a -2 penalty to reflex defense, and you're golden. But, like people have been saying, talking it out first is important.

Actana
2012-09-11, 11:09 AM
Actually, since aid another in saga can be used to penalize an enemy... All you need is a few storm troopers each giving the player a -2 penalty to reflex defense, and you're golden. But, like people have been saying, talking it out first is important.

Actually, it's a bonus or penalty to attack, depending on whether it's an enemy or ally. Have my book in front of me. +2 to skill/ability check, +2 to attack for a single ally or -2 to attack for a single enemy. All are untyped bonuses.

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 11:11 AM
Hmm, I like that idea. A lot. So essentially, a stormtrooper commander and a squad of, say 10 stormtroopers would play out as the commander having +20 to all his attacks while the other troopers aided him? I'll need to look that rule up in the corebook when I get home. Does that comsume the entire turn of the stormtroopers or is it a penalty to their own attacks?

I also really need to look up the rule about squads as single enemies. That'll make more sense, since....you know, I believe the total count of troopers and marines aboard your average Star Destroyer is around 2000 lol.

Edit: We have talked it out a bit. I feel like he shouldn't have to redo his character, simply because everything he's done works legitimately within the system. I just feel like the Star Wars Saga system never took into account players who would totally and completely optimize their characters at the cost of bad narrative. The game wants to play out in a sort of....cinematic way.

Another thing is my friend is REALLY attached to his Mandalorian, all the players in this game are. It's been extremely fun, but it's reaching a point where the players aren't being challenged much aside from Mara Jade a few sessions back, and one encounter where they fought nano-driven space zombies ala the Borg. And that was because they got separated. Coincidentally, nanobot-infected space zombies apparently really were a thing in canon, during this exact time period. I had no idea until a few weeks after the players encountered them. XD

Lazy Bum
2012-09-11, 11:14 AM
What level is the party?
Disregard, I am blind

Actana
2012-09-11, 11:17 AM
Hmm, I like that idea. A lot. So essentially, a stormtrooper commander and a squad of, say 10 stormtroopers would play out as the commander having +10 to all his attacks while the other troopers aided him? I'll need to look that rule up in the corebook when I get home. Does that comsume the entire turn of the stormtroopers or is it a penalty to their own attacks?

+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.

Talon Sky
2012-09-11, 11:19 AM
What level is the party?

Level 9, with a level 8 Bothan spy and a level 8 assassin droid that are being DM-NPCed until their players return.



+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.

Oooooooo.....see that? You and me, we's best friends now XD Oh, the Force-user will probably crush the E-web turret before too long, but the look on their faces will be grand indeed.

Actana
2012-09-11, 11:26 AM
Oooooooo.....see that? You and me, we's best friends now XD Oh, the Force-user will probably crush the E-web turret before too long, but the look on their faces will be grand indeed.

Only if he can get in range. I find that the ranges of Force powers can get quite limited in combat situations. 6 squares range? I'm sorry, I can't hear you from 50 squares away. And that's just point blank.

Lazy Bum
2012-09-11, 11:46 AM
A level 9 party should be able to chew through the crew of a Star Destroyer with relative ease. (If I'd read the OP properly, I would have opened with this.)

3 AT-STs are supposed to be a level-appropriate encounter for these guys. They are supposed to be running round with blaster cannons, missile launchers, thermal detonators and sooped-up rifles/pistols. Taking over a Star Destroyer is actually way below level appropriate for them because there's nothing on there above CL 5 or so.


So my advice is to just let him do it. Just tell him his character kills everyone on board and that they all level up.

Only when he's agreed to that do you point out that they need tens of thousands of crew to fly it. And that there are undoubtably Imperial ships responding to the Star Destroyer's distress signals. And that they should probably plan next time.

Sipex
2012-09-11, 11:47 AM
I'm supporting the 'aid another' idea, it sounds completely viable and could easily represent the storm trooper's tactics. The mooks are providing cover fire and such for the boss, forcing the mandalorian to dodge just how the big guy needs him to, then the boss sweeps in and takes his shot.

Also, it sounds like he could hold off a squad of soldiers if postioned right, maybe take advantage of this. Maybe the PCs need to do some task in a limited amount of time (Reverse the atmosphere venting for example) but they're being assaulted by squads of stormtroopers at the same time. Now your Mandalorian gets to shine, putting him in a situation where you want him to make use of his survivability.

Anxe
2012-09-11, 02:37 PM
I have used aid another in my D&D 3.5 campaign to make low level mooks into a threat as well. The players focused on the big bad dude who was getting all the bonuses. Fortunately, some of the mooks were aiding his defense as well. The bad guy became a recurring villain that the players are still a little scared of. Since it has worked well for me, I second (third? Nth?) that you use it as well.

RandomLunatic
2012-09-11, 03:59 PM
+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.
This gets better too. Add in an Imperial Officer to use Coordinate on them to make the aid another bonus +3. Then put it all together and you have...

Standard Imperial doctrine deploys Stormtroopers in 8-man squads. Split these squads into a pair of four-man fire teams, each consisting of a three regular and one heavy Stormtrooper. Two such squads, plus an Imperial Officer to lead them, comes to CL 9. Also, instead of Trust, give the officer a second instance of Coordinate. The officer uses Born Leader, then hides in back and uses Coordinate every turn, and the troopers either support their fire team's heavy, or an entire squad throws its support behind one of its heavies. The net result is either four attacks at +19, or two attacks at +35, each dealing 5d8+1 damage. This is likely to put a big dent in your PC's sense of invulnerability.

To be really mean, upgrade the heavy troopers's wimpy light repeaters to repeating carbines (KoTOR) or heavy assault blasters (Legacy), upping the damage to 5d10+1.

PairO'Dice Lost
2012-09-12, 05:30 PM
Standard Imperial doctrine deploys Stormtroopers in 8-man squads. Split these squads into a pair of four-man fire teams, each consisting of a three regular and one heavy Stormtrooper. Two such squads, plus an Imperial Officer to lead them, comes to CL 9. Also, instead of Trust, give the officer a second instance of Coordinate. The officer uses Born Leader, then hides in back and uses Coordinate every turn, and the troopers either support their fire team's heavy, or an entire squad throws its support behind one of its heavies. The net result is either four attacks at +19, or two attacks at +35, each dealing 5d8+1 damage. This is likely to put a big dent in your PC's sense of invulnerability.

Actually, stormtroopers come in 9-man squads (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Squad#Stormtroopers_and_scout_troopers), 8 standard troopers and one sergeant. That means your proposed two-squad setup would have two officers instead of one, giving you a second officer to use for more offense, more defense, positioning your main shooters, or whatever else works.

Ranting Fool
2012-09-13, 02:44 AM
I have used aid another in my D&D 3.5 campaign to make low level mooks into a threat as well. The players focused on the big bad dude who was getting all the bonuses. Fortunately, some of the mooks were aiding his defense as well. The bad guy became a recurring villain that the players are still a little scared of. Since it has worked well for me, I second (third? Nth?) that you use it as well.

Same, also I just used the "Mob" template for little undead. Gives the players some feel or risk when being outnumbered 100-1 and makes hordes of monsters viable without having to roll a huge amount of dice :smallbiggrin:

GM.Casper
2012-09-15, 08:35 AM
They cant take over a Destroyer anyway. They have 37 000 crew. Even if the players have the skills to pilot the ship, they cant fight or do any maintenance without a large crew. And they cant kill all those crewmen- they would run out of ammo and stamina after the first thousand.

Use poison gas/vacuum to split the team. Once the Mandalorian is alone, sic some Sith at him.

JustIgnoreMe
2012-09-15, 10:05 AM
I remember, from a long time ago (pre-2000), a Dragon Magazine forum letter with exactly the same problem. Many solutions were proposed, most of them similar to the ones listed above. There are a few that haven't been mentioned yet though, mostly less "how do I hurt him?" and more "how do I challenge him?"

If you make it all about attack rolls, AC and damage, that's playing to his strengths. While that's ok sometimes, for a character to be challenged you sometimes need to go after their weaknesses.

Social: I can't imagine many peeple want to talk to a Mandalorian who always wears his battle-armour. Going to a social function? Not likely. Have to talk to the head of a cartel? Not in that get-up.

Environment: quicksand and rubble to trap him, freezing cold after immersion in water to freeze him, electrical storms (the lightning isn't going to miss).

And my personal favourite?

Magnets. Giant electro-magnets. See Robocop for further details.

AgentofHellfire
2012-09-15, 10:26 AM
Does the character have any loved ones, or people he cares about?

Have the Empire go after them once he screws up. :smallbiggrin:

Thrawn4
2012-09-15, 01:04 PM
for a character to be challenged you sometimes need to go after their weaknesses.


This.

Allow me to elaborate:
Diplomatic missions etc. with major importants will be crowded with many dangerous people (bodyguards, security...) where you are allowed to have a very high CR. This is viable if there are other ways to overcome these obstacles like deceit and diplomacy.
Another way to enforce subtlety would be a hostage that is executed at the slightest suspicion.
Some cities may have a problem with a walking death suit, so he will have to take it off in order to get access.
Space fights are also an important option. How are your characters getting away anyway now that the Imperial Fleet will be after them? Are they good enough to get away with their shuttle? (Star Destroyer needs a HUGE crew)
Bounty hunters might also become interested in people with such a high profile.

invinible
2012-09-15, 07:32 PM
How about using a scan system that only attacks guys it can't properly scan?

Vamphyr
2012-09-16, 05:04 PM
I would like to open by saying that I haven't ever played this system before, but I do have some suggestions to deal with a problem like this.

Going for the players weaknesses (diplomacy missions, etc) is all well and good, but if they are trying to take over an Imperial starship in the next couple of weeks then I would suggest besting him at his own game.

From what you've written it sounds like he has made himself more than a nuisance to the Empire. Why not send a straight us sith assassin after him. Have the other two players get stuck behind force walls and placed effectively out of the fight. The assassin wouldn't care if they lived or died if he was charged with only killing this uber tank.

At that point buff his to hit to the point where he can land a blow on an average roll. Buff his AC to the point where the player needs to roll semi-decently to hit him, and give the assassin hit points to spare.

If you stick the other players in portable force fields that the assassin threw at them, by the time things start looking grim for the player, simply have the battery die on the force fields and free the players. At this point have the sith swear he will return and disappear into an air vent, then over the intercom the players hear sirens and "Self Destruct set for..."

At this point you've shown you can keep pace with the character, you've stopped them from getting a ship that you don't want them to have, and you've set up a new recurring villain.

RandomLunatic
2012-09-17, 12:07 AM
I would like to open by saying that I haven't ever played this system before, but I do have some suggestions to deal with a problem like this.

Going for the players weaknesses (diplomacy missions, etc) is all well and good, but if they are trying to take over an Imperial starship in the next couple of weeks then I would suggest besting him at his own game.

From what you've written it sounds like he has made himself more than a nuisance to the Empire. Why not send a straight us sith assassin after him. Have the other two players get stuck behind force walls and placed effectively out of the fight. The assassin wouldn't care if they lived or died if he was charged with only killing this uber tank.

At that point buff his to hit to the point where he can land a blow on an average roll. Buff his AC to the point where the player needs to roll semi-decently to hit him, and give the assassin hit points to spare.

If you stick the other players in portable force fields that the assassin threw at them, by the time things start looking grim for the player, simply have the battery die on the force fields and free the players. At this point have the sith swear he will return and disappear into an air vent, then over the intercom the players hear sirens and "Self Destruct set for..."

At this point you've shown you can keep pace with the character, you've stopped them from getting a ship that you don't want them to have, and you've set up a new recurring villain.

No offense, but that is a terrible suggestion.

First off, it forces two players to sit on the sidelines and watch the third character play for what could very well be the better part of an hour.

Second, it is likely to come off to the players as a "grudge monster".

Thirdly, it does not solve the underlying issue that the PC in question thinks that knocking over Imperial garrisons and commandeering Star Destroyers constitute a good way to pass an afternoon. Using enemies tailored to fight him just shows that regular troops cannot handle him. Using a bunch of CL 1 and 2 mooks to wipe the floor with him should restore fear of large quantities of Stormtroopers.

Sidmen
2012-09-17, 02:28 AM
I would like to open by saying that I haven't ever played this system before, but I do have some suggestions to deal with a problem like this.

Going for the players weaknesses (diplomacy missions, etc) is all well and good, but if they are trying to take over an Imperial starship in the next couple of weeks then I would suggest besting him at his own game.
That doesn't really solve the core problem, though. All it does is give him one good fight, that the rest of the group will spend sitting on their tush flicking snot at each other.

The core issue boils down to "I can't hit this guy, how do I challenge him in his favored field - combat?"

Aid another boosted attacks solves this issue forever. Sure, you have to outnumber your PCs by quite a bit, but with Aid Another, even random CR 1 police officers can reliably hit the high defense character. It also lets you put 20+ actors on the field without having to do anything with most of them...

Ranting Fool
2012-09-17, 01:13 PM
Aid another boosted attacks solves this issue forever. Sure, you have to outnumber your PCs by quite a bit, but with Aid Another, even random CR 1 police officers can reliably hit the high defense character. It also lets you put 20+ actors on the field without having to do anything with most of them...

And also the joy the player gets when they DO defeat the force that is heavily outnumbering them and were a danger to them. :smallbiggrin:

Elvenoutrider
2012-09-17, 03:59 PM
One solution is simply raise the cr. Your players dont have to know the exact stat block of therir enemies. If this one player has become a huge thorn in the side of the empire It wouldnt be out of the question for the local Moff to call in an elite specialized team to take them out. Have them get aboard the star destroyer and have it seem like theri plan is working, only to have the captain seal off the pcs area while he sends in the elite team. The battle then becomes about escaping rather than attacking.

Thrawn4
2012-09-17, 05:54 PM
It just occurred to me that another way to challenge this tank would be an objective to inflict as much damage as possible in a short period of time, e. g. destroying different computers on different levels. As he is optimized for taking damage, he probably has a problem at dealing it.

Sidmen
2012-09-17, 06:34 PM
It just occurred to me that another way to challenge this tank would be an objective to inflict as much damage as possible in a short period of time, e. g. destroying different computers on different levels. As he is optimized for taking damage, he probably has a problem at dealing it.

Not really so in Star Wars Saga. I'm playing a soldier tank in Saga with the heaviest armor and talents related to it. I'm also perfectly capable of dual-wielding heavy blaster pistols, giving me two 3d8+5 damage attacks with an attack bonus of +7 (I'm only level 5).

To translate: in Saga you can be an effective tank without lacking in firepower. The only characters that can get more firepower is through the use of Force Powers.

The Dark Fiddler
2012-09-19, 08:53 PM
I want to preface this post by saying that the "talking to the player" and "using groups of troopers" ideas are much better than this, and are more likely to work long-term (especially the first). That said, what's stopping you from doing the same thing he's doing? I find it hard to believe (granted, I'm not an expert on SW lore) that he's the only Mandalorian with the secrets of apparently being nigh-invulnerable, and almost as hard to believe that the Empire wouldn't have hired a single one, or otherwise managed to employ them.

Logic
2012-09-19, 10:23 PM
Get creative with falling damage. Artificial gravity makes for interesting times. All it takes is one guy at the right terminal to see him coming, and he is a pancake.

Toofey
2012-09-19, 11:35 PM
Why not just blow a hatch, vacuum tends to take the fight right out of pretty much everyone... right?

Deathkeeper
2012-09-20, 04:28 PM
Why not just blow a hatch, vacuum tends to take the fight right out of pretty much everyone... right?

I believe he said his armor is sealed with 24 hours of life support.

Henlein_Kosh
2012-09-20, 05:03 PM
He wants to take over a star destroyer, I say let him.

If I was running the game I would let them try, and have one epic fight of it.
During this fight I would also have the crew disable some of the more critical systems: Hyperdrive, communications, sensors, shields are just a few suggestions.

Even if the party should succeed in repairing most of the systems, it would take time, and they don't have the crew to pilot the ship anyway.

Meanwhile have the crewmembers that evaded death or capture start a guerilla campaign angainst the characters.

After a while have another star destroyer (or more) show up to investigate, in their crippled state they shouldn't be able to do much against that than flee.

As an aftermath have the party hunted by imperial forces until the point where the other players deal with the problem player.

This is just my idea of a fun story arc, that will give the problem player utter success, and then show, that he didn't think it through to the end, while they still can accomplish the original mission and a bit more (crippling a star destroyer is quite the accomplishment).

One Step Two
2012-09-20, 06:25 PM
Many have suggested letting him play out his chance to take over the said Star Destroyer, and I am with him. However, people who play SciFi forget the fundamentals of being a better bastard. Cyberpunk.

Last time I checked, there aren't alot of staircases in a Star Destroyer, there's elevators though, and cutting the power, and cutting the cable is a deadly to any man, armour or not. This gives you a chance to send them running as the Star Destroyer Captain prooves a canny individual, well aware of how to stop armed assaults reaching the bridge. You can use this to negotiate with the players in character to bargain for their lives, or otherwise. Seal off the environment, and pump in some knock-out gas into the now sealed capsule, and wait it out, 24 hour life support or not. When they wake up two-days later with explosive collars installed, or even better, cranial bombs implanted, it can start a whole new dimenson of play. Sometimes, when a player gets too powerful, Just Waste Him Chombata.

... Sorry, I got into my Cyberpunk swing where death was a casual and fun experience, elevators are a deathtrap, and having direct control to the power and operation of them from the Bridge means you can stop the one man army in his tracks as he's stuck on lower levels. Of course, he might try and steal a Tie Fighter, or walk on the outside of the ship using his magnetic boots to reach the Bridge on foot, but it's at that point you should ask that he to assesses his motivations.

Sometimes the answer to a player doing something off the wall, is to be off the wall in return, not as a matter of one-up-manship (well maybe a little) but to create an interesting story when a player does something interesting, sane or not.

Toofey
2012-09-20, 06:49 PM
I believe he said his armor is sealed with 24 hours of life support.

24 hours is not that long in the middle of space.


Ultimately, if you want to take the power back you need to take the power back. Nothing is going to actually be anything other than DM Fiat, whatever it is you throw at him, is what you chose to throw at him.

Make something work because it works, handroll the die roll, whatever. You could even try talking to the player and see if you can come together with them on a different way to build out their **** that is less disruptive, you should also ask the player what would work against their character, they probably know.

Last Laugh
2012-09-24, 06:58 PM
And on autofire attacks, characters with evasion take half-damage from a successful area-effect hit, and none if it misses. Evasion is balls-out broken, always take a level in Scout for it! :p

I think that's improved evasion. There is nothing to stop you from putting him in a situation where he CANT evade. Doesn't matter how hard you are to hit, you can't dodge a stream of fire in a 5 ft corridor. If he has crazy high AC maybe you can try something that uses a touch attack? prefferably a debuff. I have no idea what option you have in saga.

A situation where evasion wouldn't help him:
The pcs run down a narrow corridor, there are 10-20 imperials waiting on the other side in ambush, as the PCs are ~ halfway down the corridor the imperials pop up from behind cover and try this auto fire thingy that was mentioned previously in the thread.

Of course this may punish the other characters harder than the tank...