OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

And before anyone says anything:

Yes, I know Keoghtum's Ointment doesn't normally remove deafness. That's why this is Extra Strength. :smalltongue:

[Delusion]

Nothing better to make my day after week of flu. Awesome as always :smallbiggrin:

[AgentofOdd]

There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.

[Sunken Valley]

New comic is up.

And before anyone says anything:

Yes, I know Keoghtum's Ointment doesn't normally remove deafness. That's why this is Extra Strength. :smalltongue:

Doesn't matter. Deafness from Holy Word is only 1d4 rounds. Which has happened

[Jaffo]

I love it when these get meta. Seriously, when's the last time a group of good guys just did a great job and WON a fight?

My friends roll their eyes at me when I treat this comic like literature, but I love it when Giant screws around with narrative conventions.

This is the same reason people love Joss Whedon - defying convention in ways that make the story better.

[Chess Tyrant]

There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.

I have to admit, I found that panel really weird myself. I mean, we've seen him(?) with an evil smile on his face, and that's not at all strange. But an actual, genuine, not-grinning-at-someone-else's-suffering smile is very striking, coming from him.

[The Giant]

Doesn't matter. Deafness from Holy Word is only 1d4 rounds. Which has happened

Ugh. This is what I get when I script by hand instead of at the computer, I mess up all the spell details. Oh well, the end result is the same.

[Hallavast]

Aww.

My dad refers to me as "my idiot son" all the time. So touching.

[Mike Havran]

I roared with laughter when I read the "Inactive Ingredients" part. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, Giant!

[AbuSpud]

Ugh. This is what I get when I script by hand instead of at the computer, I mess up all the spell details. Oh well, the end result is the same.

I'm not even gonna ask how you cure cancer by applying to the affected area....:smalleek:

[Mike Havran]

I roared with laughter when I read the "Inactive Ingredients" part. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, Giant!



Second thought: Maybe that's why Tarquin got so many wives... Then again, that's a pretty creepy explanation.

[Xan499]

If Malack is in the room with all the corpses, my first guess would be that he's going to make more undead, but, what would he do with more undead? Maybe we will get to find out what else his staff does soon.

[Orzel]

Haha!

Poor Elan.
The fight was made too easy.
Overshadowed by the cleric.
The tiers list strikes again!

[oppyu]

So that's what Elan was going to do. Poor guy.

First the Order succeeds in rescuing V without his dramatic conventions, and now this? It's almost as if they've accumulated experience from their adventures, and have evolved into a talented, capable adventuring party.

EDIT: Is anyone else excited by the idea of Tarquin with a whip? Referring to his combat abilities of course, not any disturbing long-term daddy issues.

[Edhelras]

Huh. I just yesterday got my hands on the sourcebook Dungeonscape (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeonscape-Essential-Adventuring-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786941189), which Rich co-authored, where I read a list of dungeon item packages, which included this "Keoghtum's ointment". But I could not discover where it was from. Couldn't find it in the DMG. Does anyone know? Strange to see it resurface here...

EDIT: Actually, now I discovered that this is the same as Restorative Ointment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#restorativeOintment), just with a cooler name...

2nd EDIT: And now I found out about Keoghtum too: "And Keoghtom is a quasi-deity of Oerth, detailed in the 1983 World of Greyhawk set and featuring in Gary Gygax's Gord novels as Lord Keogh." (from Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12351) forum).

3rd EDIT: So, I guess this might be called the second time (that I discovered) where Rich draws on his sourcebook, then, the other being the acidborn shark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html).
But now that I actually own a copy of the Dungeonscape book, I'll certainly look more closelier to see other instances where it's referenced in the OOTS!

[Emperordaniel]

Hey, in the first panel you can see Girard's Pyramid in the background. Nice touch. :smallbiggrin:


Is anyone else excited by the idea of Tarquin with a whip? Referring to his combat abilities of course, not any disturbing long-term daddy issues.

I am, and I've now got this image in my head of Tarquin swinging the whip around Indiana Jones-style... :smalltongue:

Also, I agree that Zz'dtri smiling like that is pretty neat. :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

Poor Elan.


There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.

I thought it was creepy. :smalleek:

[AgentofOdd]

I'm not even gonna ask how you cure cancer by applying to the affected area....:smalleek:I imagine it's a lot like stabbing someone with a poisoned dagger, only this time you should get a net positive effect if you use enough of the goop.

[B. Dandelion]

There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.

I thought so too! He's all smiling and happy to be healed. Then I was a little weirded out by my own reaction. I wonder if it's a sign Tarquin has endeared himself to the guy a little. I mean, not like that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html), but that he's preferring Tarquin's leadership style to Nale's, and will wind up siding with him over his son if it comes to that. But in any case, it did just seem oddly cute to me.

[Pronounceable]

That must be the best medicinal product ever made, mainly because of the directions.

[warmachine]

There's one major flaw with Roy's plan, which was Durkon was surrounded by the enemy, included a really good fighter. How would Durkon escape?

[shamgar001]

I love how this thread was posted right before the evening backups.

My roommate and I have been puzzling for weeks what Elan was going to do. This was way better than any of my theories.

[Savil]

That ointment description is so full of awesome :smallbiggrin:

[dtilque]

I am, and I've now got this image in my head of Tarquin swinging the whip around Indiana Jones-style... :smalltongue:



I foresee some Indiana Jones-themed jokes...

It looks like Tarquin's axe was not recallable. So who gets to use it? Durkon would be the obvious choice, since he's the only one without a magically enhanced weapon (not counting V, of course).

Nale's bastard sword (I think that's what it is) was also left behind. Roy should keep it as a backup weapon (don't want to see him reduced to using a club again). That would give everyone (except V) two weapons.

[Emperordaniel]

There's one major flaw with Roy's plan, which was Durkon was surrounded by the enemy, included a really good fighter. How would Durkon escape?

I believe Meld into Stone allows you to move in and out of the stone at will until the duration is up; there's also the fact that Roy was charging forward, only delayed by the mummies.

[Edhelras]

I believe Meld into Stone allows you to move in and out of the stone at will until the duration is up; there's also the fact that Roy was charging forward, only delayed by the mummies.

The duration is 10 minutes/level: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meldIntoStone.htm

But, according to the text, "When the casting is complete, you and not more than 100 pounds of nonliving gear merge with the stone." The spell "enables you to meld your body and possessions into a single block of stone". And "The stone must be large enough to accommodate your body in all three dimensions."

It seems to me that when casting the spell, you must designate a fitting stone, and meld into that stone and remain in it. It's not like you gain incorporality and can move about in solid walls, or out of/into stone material.

[Killer Angel]

That ointment description is so full of awesome :smallbiggrin:

It's pure comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:

Well, and now we know why Elan wasn't contributing to the fight. :smalltongue:

[snikrept]

Active ingredient : magic is pretty hilarious!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I think I know who is goinv to end up with Tarquin's Axe!
Thog!

[Adeptus]

Of the sausage variety :elan: priceless!

[coineineagh]

(re)treat and regroup...:smallwink:

[thumbprince]

Huh. I just yesterday got my hands on the sourcebook Dungeonscape (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeonscape-Essential-Adventuring-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786941189), which Rich co-authored, where I read a list of dungeon item packages, which included this "Keoghtum's ointment". But I could not discover where it was from. Couldn't find it in the DMG. Does anyone know? Strange to see it resurface here.

....

So, I guess this might be called the second time (that I discovered) where Rich draws on his sourcebook.

Not exactly - you can find it in the very first DMG, from 1978!

[Chantelune]

Nice strip. Happy drow is surpising and a bit creepy. So he can feel happyness, even in such a fleeting manner ?

And loved the "make it believable" line answering the "but then we won". Priceless. XD

[pikeamus]

Liked the strip. I hope there were a sufficient amount of things going imperfectly for Tarquin to mollify his haters. Personally I think he seems like the right sort of level of competant and threatening for the order to really learn something from facing him without it seeming like a hopeless mismatch (though I do suspect it'll be Xykon that knocks Tarquin down in this arc).

[Musta Nuoli]

I sure could have used some Keoghtum's Ointment a week ago, I had a terrible flu. It probably would have helped also to some long-term medical conditions. Hey, if it cures cancer, it can probably deal with a migraine and asthma.

Now all we need to do is to mass-produce the ointment. Of course, getting the hearts of the virgins (taken on their wedding night) might be slightly problematic. Maybe we could replace it with Virgin Oil taken from some chef's kitchen?

[Kareasint]

I laughed at the "Cleric-in-a-can" statement. Good comic.

[Sweet_Goddess]

I'm not even gonna ask how you cure cancer by applying to the affected area....:smalleek:

Depends on the cancer... skin cancer is easy, lung cancer you have to aerosolize it.


So that's what Elan was going to do. Poor guy.

First the Order succeeds in rescuing V without his dramatic conventions, and now this? It's almost as if they've accumulated experience from their adventures, and have evolved into a talented, capable adventuring party.

EDIT: Is anyone else excited by the idea of Tarquin with a whip? Referring to his combat abilities of course, not any disturbing long-term daddy issues.

Hey, in the first panel you can see Girard's Pyramid in the background. Nice touch. :smallbiggrin:

I am, and I've now got this image in my head of Tarquin swinging the whip around Indiana Jones-style... :smalltongue:

Also, I agree that Zz'dtri smiling like that is pretty neat. :smallsmile:

Boulder Trap? Definite Possibility.
Snakes? Rats? Or some other fear for Tarquin (how about Roy pulls out the Bag of Tricks and lets loos the... um... Squirrels? Beavers? Mongooses... Mongeese... what is the plural of Mongoose... well... whatever... the good counterpart to Snakes)? Why not.
But in Halfling Ehlonna is spelled with an Y... or was it in Elvish Ehlonna is spelled with an A... Wait, in Dwarvish it is spelled with a Belch... what the heck letter is a Belch? Hmm, okay might be too tricky a joke and too obscure a reference.


Huh. I just yesterday got my hands on the sourcebook Dungeonscape (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeonscape-Essential-Adventuring-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786941189), which Rich co-authored, where I read a list of dungeon item packages, which included this "Keoghtum's ointment". But I could not discover where it was from. Couldn't find it in the DMG. Does anyone know? Strange to see it resurface here...

EDIT: Actually, now I discovered that this is the same as Restorative Ointment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#restorativeOintment), just with a cooler name...

2nd EDIT: And now I found out about Keoghtum too: "And Keoghtom is a quasi-deity of Oerth, detailed in the 1983 World of Greyhawk set and featuring in Gary Gygax's Gord novels as Lord Keogh." (from Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12351) forum).

3rd EDIT: So, I guess this might be called the second time (that I discovered) where Rich draws on his sourcebook, then, the other being the acidborn shark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html).
But now that I actually own a copy of the Dungeonscape book, I'll certainly look more closelier to see other instances where it's referenced in the OOTS!

My only issue is... Rich is making fun of himself via the demon roaches by calling himself a hack in the Acid Breathing Shark scene. Otherwise, why the heck not reference his own source material?




Active ingredient : magic is pretty hilarious!

71% Magic, that's a lot of magic...


That ointment description is so full of awesome :smallbiggrin:

I wonder if it comes in unscented, or with alternative ingredients... cause the fragrance or petroleum jelly could cause some allergic reactions, and what if the heart from the virgin on his/her wedding night isn't O- Bloodtype... or a different species... there could be rejection issues. Well, I guess if those are complications... add more ointment as per the directions... right?


It's pure comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:

Well, and now we know why Elan wasn't contributing to the fight. :smalltongue:

Yes, in the photo there's me and Gygax and no, is not photoshopped. ^_^

Awesome picture... sad that no one can get a new one with him unless they do photoshop (or GIMP, or some other alternative image editor) it. Thanks for sharing it.

Hey, anyone know where we can find a Cleric who can due True Resurrection... and a big Diamond? We could bring back Gygax...


Nice strip. Happy drow is surpising and a bit creepy. So he can feel happyness, even in such a fleeting manner ?

And loved the "make it believable" line answering the "but then we won". Priceless. XD

I think it is less happiness and more relief. Try depriving yourself of sight and read a few comics, or go listen to your favorite CD muted with headphones on so you hear nothing from it nor even your own breathing... do this for... 5 or 10 minutes... don't pretend, really try reading without sight or listening without hearing, have someone else keep track of the time, tell them to return after 10 or more minutes... stipulate they can wait longer (this is even better if you have a mischievous friend, as they may really make you wait a while, or even leave), and keep trying until they return, and see how relieved your are when you're allowed to see or hear again (obviously if you have the mischievous friend, that could be days, at which pint you'll be really relieved to get your sense back, and royally angry with your so called friend... also a good way to gauge how good a friend they are).

As for Elan, I feel bad, cause he's genre savvy enough to know he got left out, meanwhile I think it is great that Tarquin thinks of Nale as the idiot while thinking Elan is a real threat... though it does seem that Tarquin realizes that Elan is not the leader and knows Roy is in charge (or at least thinks Elan is the leader, but thinks Elan was smart enough to differ to Roy's tactical expertise and let Roy field command).

[Calintares]

This is the first time Tarquin has acknowleged alignments, and he also refered to a group he is part of as "evil."

[Morph Bark]

I'm not even gonna ask how you cure cancer by applying to the affected area....:smalleek:

Imagine prostate cancer.

[taragui]

There seems to be a typo in panel 9: ‘tissure paper’ for ‘tissue paper’.

I know ‘tissure’ is French for texture, but it doesn't seem right… unless the Giant was making a very indirect stab at the “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” stereotype.

[talkamancer]

Looking for (re)group ? But where's Richard ?

[theinsulabot]

not that I am a huge Nale fan and all, but it seems like Tarquin is being a bit tough on him. dude gets hit with a death trap, riddled with arrows, and then ambushed by Ceiling Belkar. thats a lot of damage in a couple of rounds.

[HandofShadows]

Nales deserves worse than what he just got.

[theinsulabot]

how much worse can you get then getting repeatedly shanked by Ceiling Belkar who actually, through genetics, has a primary strike zone of ball level?

[Tykopulus]

Elan: "If you´re going to fib, Roy, at least make it belivable"

Hohoho has Elan just made a Level up and spend a point in Wisdom :smallbiggrin:

[Nephrahim]

Does anyone else see Nale's list of allies growing smaller and smaller? Not only is Sabine gone, but I've never been that clear on why Zz'dtri followed Nale, but as a smart Drow, I have to imagine he can tell how much better a leader Tarquin is, and one that helps heal him to boot.

[Emperordaniel]

Imagine prostate cancer.

Gah! :eek:

[Der_DWSage]

how much worse can you get then getting repeatedly shanked by Ceiling Belkar who actually, through genetics, has a primary strike zone of ball level?

That is so going into my quote list. I'll have to remember that the next time I play a Dwarf.


Anyway, Tarquin could be making fun of the fact that he got his arse pretty solidly handed to him by a Halfling with a racial strength penalty, a small weapon penalty, and a mild tactical disadvantage (He couldn't hear, so Elan could have held him off quite deftly with some kind of sight-blocking spell or even just ducking deeper into the smoke) and a suboptimal class combination, since it really didn't seem like Belkar was raging. All while he single-handedly dealt with the one factor that had shut down the entire group.

Of course, he could also be calling him an idiot son because Elan actually remembered to get him something for Evil Tyrant day, while Nale tried to invade with three woodchucks, Thog on rocket boots, and a Kobold that had three levels of Bard.

[Ron Miel]

Of the sausage variety :elan: priceless!

Does this mean that Z is explicitly male?


Now all we need to do is to mass-produce the ointment. Of course, getting the hearts of the virgins (taken on their wedding night) might be slightly problematic. Maybe we could replace it with Virgin Oil taken from some chef's kitchen?

Not just problematic, it's also not necessary. Virgin's heart is an inactive ingredient. It can be left out altogether.

[Burner28]

I liked this strip, as well as the fact that Tarquin was shown to be capable of human error in order to quell the criticism that he seemed impossibly knowledgeable.

[Emperordaniel]

Does this mean that Z is explicitly male?

I believe he's been explicitly male for some time already.

[pendell]

I'd never heard of Keoghtom's ointment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keoghtom#Keoghtom.27s_ointment) before. There's no indication that it's an evil item requiring the heart of a virgin. I suppose that's humor, and perhaps an alternate recipe which Tarquin got from Evil Pharmacy, Inc.

As expected, Tarquin proves to be the Adam-West style Batman hero, who's got something for every occasion on a utility belt. Which may explain why he's stayed alive so long and reached such high levels.

*Chuckle* But he still doesn't understand that Elan experience great competence swings. When he got his level in dashing swordsman, he proved quite effective. But now that he's back with Roy he's reverted to being useless. It's almost like Roy infantilizes him some how.

And of course the last panel brings the funny :). Here's hoping Elan can prove more useful in the near future.

ETA: The result of this encounter is that the LG is deprived of Sabine for 24 hours, just as the OOTS has been temporarily deprived of Vaarsuvius. So for the next 24 hours, they will encounter each other at near parity.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Julian84]

:smallwink: I see what you did there, giant. Great comic.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Hopeless]

Well at least Tarquin didn't try to believe Elan planned the entire ambush...

He has to agree Roy is keeping his word by protecting Elan though I am wondering how long before Nale actually points out whose actually leading Elan's group of course there is an odd chance he doesn't know... nah!

[UtimaII]

Once again I wonder what Tarquin's reaction will be once he is shown that Elan is not the great super-warrior he wants him to be. He seems to go to great lengths to ignore that fact. Certainly Nale realize's his father's naivety about it.

[MReav]

Does this mean that Z is explicitly male?

Hey, unlike drow males, drow females leave absolutely nothing to the imagination. So their genders look like "androgynous" and "'literally killer' bombshell"

[Commander672]

Ok, now they're literally dragging kilkil around behind them. I'm SURE he's destined for something. Mentioned it once, calling it now: Kilkil kills Belkar.

[Joe the Rat]

That is so going into my quote list. I'll have to remember that the next time I play a Dwarf.

Dwarves swing for the kidneys. Halflings hit below the belt.

The most feared warrior is not a hulking brute with a greataxe, or a swift and deadly swordsman, but a halfling with a spiked mace.

[McDouggal]

The most feared warrior is not a hulking brute with a greataxe, or a swift and deadly swordsman, but a halfling with a spiked mace.

Can I sig this? This is awesomesauce.

[EvilAvocado]

I need me some of that ointment for this flu...

*rereads comic*

*notices ingredients list*

*laughs maniacally*

*grabs a cleaver and runs out the door*

:smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

He has to agree Roy is keeping his word by protecting Elan though I am wondering how long before Nale actually points out whose actually leading Elan's group of course there is an odd chance he doesn't know... nah!

Nale thinks Elan is the leader.
Panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

[Calimehter]

Dwarves swing for the kidneys. Halflings hit below the belt.

The most feared warrior is not a hulking brute with a greataxe, or a swift and deadly swordsman, but a halfling with a mancatcher.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[sims796]

The funny thing is, Roy most likely isn't lying about his escape plan, given their track record of running away.

I especially appreciate the fact that Roy is oblivious to Tarquin's Ring of True Seeing. After all, how could he know that Tarquin possessed that item? A mark of a poor story teller is when the characters have knowledge that only the reader should possess.

[t209]

Tarquin forgot to rescue marlek and qarr. So will the prophecy of
both durkon's death and bringing "death and destruction" (God of Marlek) to his home.

[dps]

The pterodon seems well trained. Is it possible that Tarquin has ranks in ranger, and it's his animal companion?

[Emperordaniel]

I'd never heard of Keoghtom's ointment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keoghtom#Keoghtom.27s_ointment) before. There's no indication that it's an evil item requiring the heart of a virgin. I suppose that's humor, and perhaps an alternate recipe which Tarquin got from Evil Pharmacy, Inc.

As The Giant pointed out in the very first post, this is Keoghtom's Ointment: Extra Strength, which, unlike normal Keoghtom's Ointment, presumably requires such an ingredient. :smallwink:



Tarquin forgot to rescue marlek and qarr. So will the prophecy of
both durkon's death and bringing "death and destruction" (God of Marlek) to his home.

Qarr teleported away, and Tarquin just said that they are going back now to get Malak. :smallconfused:

[Joe the Rat]

The wedding-night-virgin-heart isn't an active ingredient though. It's effectively there for flavor. Or maybe it's like menthol. Eeeevil menthol.


Can I sig this? This is awesomesauce.

Go for it.

@Calimehter: :smalleek:

[McDouggal]

Go for it.

Thanks! 10charactersFTW!

[Chantelune]

There seems to be a typo in panel 9: ‘tissure paper’ for ‘tissue paper’.

I know ‘tissure’ is French for texture, but it doesn't seem right… unless the Giant was making a very indirect stab at the “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” stereotype.

Nope, french for texture is texture :smalltongue: tissure is not a french word *is french* ^^

[Forikroder]

oh look who doesnt have a back up axe, looks like Tarquins offensive ability has been reduced quite a bit

[Chess Tyrant]

Thinking about it, the whip may actually be more useful. Tarquin hasn't been aiming for pure damage this whole time - he's been fighting defensively, and many of his attacks at the top of the pyramid were aimed at controlling his enemies, rather than wounding them. Even if it deals far less straight-up damage, the whip lets Tarquin make trip and disarm attacks more easily, which I fully expect to see exploited in an upcoming strip. :smallsmile:

That said, I can't imagine it'll do him any favors when if/when he runs into Xykon.

[pendell]

I need me some of that ointment for this flu...

*rereads comic*

*notices ingredients list*

*laughs maniacally*

*grabs a cleaver and runs out the door*

:smallbiggrin:

I wish there was a "like" button on this board. EvilAvocado, you've made my day :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rgrekejin]

Qarr teleported away, and Tarquin just said that they are going back now to get Malak. :smallconfused:

True, but just because Tarquin said it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen. We know that Malack is actively looking for a path around the door, as he doesn't yet know that the rest of the Guild has retreated. Maybe Malack will find a way around the door, and meet up with the Order before Tarquin can catch back up with him. The rest of t209's point is... highly speculative, but maybe going back and getting Malack won't be as easy as Tarquin thinks it will be.

[Forikroder]

Thinking about it, the whip may actually be more useful. Tarquin hasn't been aiming for pure damage this whole time - he's been fighting defensively, and many of his attacks at the top of the pyramid were aimed at controlling his enemies, rather than wounding them. Even if it deals far less straight-up damage, the whip lets Tarquin make trip and disarm attacks more easily, which I fully expect to see exploited in an upcoming strip. :smallsmile:

That said, I can't imagine it'll do him any favors when if/when he runs into Xykon.

Malack said that Tarquin was just messing with him so that probably wasnt his actual fighting style and was jsut being super defensive to see them fight

[Ron Miel]

Tarquin forgot to rescue marlek and qarr.

Nope, he trusted Malek to "head back to the room with the corpses."

[Ron Miel]

Tarquin forgot to rescue marlek and qarr.

Nope, he trusted Malek to "head back to the room with the corpses."

[Jay R]

So the argument over why Elan wasn't involved in the fight is not so much ended as transferred from the forum to the strip.


I'd never heard of Keoghtom's ointment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keoghtom#Keoghtom.27s_ointment) before. There's no indication that it's an evil item requiring the heart of a virgin. I suppose that's humor, and perhaps an alternate recipe which Tarquin got from Evil Pharmacy, Inc.

There's sort of a theme going here. In Tarquin's view, you can't make Keoghtom's Ointment without the heart of a virgin collected on his/her wedding night, for the same reason that you can't make a Ring of Regeneration without torturing somebody to death to give it magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), and you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html).

[Emperordaniel]

oh look who doesnt have a back up axe, looks like Tarquins offensive ability has been reduced quite a bit

I don't think so. Unless Tarquin's from some obscure fighting class and not Fighter, he still has a BAB of at least +17, i.e. Not Very ReducedTM. Even if that axe was +5, losing it does not really affect how well he can go on the offensive. Granted, whips only deal nonlethal damage, but that works out for him alright anyways, since he had promised not to kill Durkon (and doesn't want to kill Elan either), and the weapon has a 15-foot range - three times as far as Roy, Durkon, Belkar, or Elan can reach. Plus, there's always the +2 bonus a whip grants to Disarming your opponent, which is pretty nifty.

[Forikroder]

I don't think so. Unless Tarquin's from some obscure fighting class and not Fighter, he still has a BAB of at least +17, i.e. Not Very ReducedTM. Even if that axe was +5, losing it does not really affect how well he can go on the offensive. Granted, whips only deal nonlethal damage, but that works out for him alright anyways, since he had promised not to kill Durkon (and doesn't want to kill Elan either), and the weapon has a 15-foot range - three times as far as Roy, Durkon, Belkar, or Elan can reach. Plus, there's always the +2 bonus a whip grants to Disarming your opponent, which is pretty nifty.

none of which has anything to do with Tarquins offensive ability

your also forgetting all the feats he has to increase his damage with a 2 handed axe that he almost certainly doesnt ahve with his whip

Tarquin essentially has no offensive ability now although his defensive ability has increased

[Zubzub]

I dislike the fact Tarquin has gotten to the point of getting involved in pointless monologues about his axe and drow sign language, just to make it clear things dont always go his way because a bunch of people are unable to accept he's just extra prepared. The spoiler in Giant's first comment is probably only there so people wont go "HURR THAT OINTMENT DOESNT DO THAT DEM RAWRRRR".

[Kalrany]

Hey, in the first panel you can see Girard's Pyramid in the background. Nice touch. :smallbiggrin:

I am, and I've now got this image in my head of Tarquin swinging the whip around Indiana Jones-style... :smalltongue:


It will hopefully keep people from arguing if they can get back quick enough to be in anyway effective.

Well, we have had Star Wars with this group -- Indiana Jones has at least continuity of a shared leading actor... Makes sense, though. They went from the Evil Empire to hunting for an artifact in the middle of a desert. :smallwink:


Nice strip. Happy drow is surpising and a bit creepy. So he can feel happyness, even in such a fleeting manner ?

And loved the "make it believable" line answering the "but then we won". Priceless. XD

Agree on the Drow. Weird boarding on creepy. It shows we have not seen him genuinely happy in all the strips he has been in so far. The strip was written such that the ointment was needed to get rid of deafness, but it is possible that the return was slow (less than total) or if there was some lingering impairment i.e. I know if I am exposed to silence for an extended period, I have to process what I hear over very loud tinnitus. Or it could be that he (Z) prefers good ol' dad (T) to his son (N) and just appreciated helps from some he (Z)... respects? We really don't know what Z thinks of T, though. Eh, I am not sure if the source of the smile matters (and it doesn't until it does... :smalltongue:).

Elan.... Poor E. It seems he has trouble believing that The Order is actually learning from their experiences... (Or he has been reading the Forums.) I really like that they are winning against a competent and cleaver opponent. It is setting up the idea that they are more than semi-competent and that a real win against Team Evil is possible. Victory over a competent Linear Guild has much more meaning then the typical LG.


...Ceiling Belkar...

Can't...stop...giggling... Wish I had Photoshop (http://peckdrywall.com/images/ceiling-cat.jpg)on this computer... :smallbiggrin:



...Not just problematic, it's also not necessary. Virgin's heart is an inactive ingredient. It can be left out altogether.

The wedding-night-virgin-heart isn't an active ingredient though. It's effectively there for flavor. Or maybe it's like menthol. Eeeevil menthol....

Or it is a stabilizing component. Maybe it is only needed for the Extra Strength version. Something has to hold on to that 71% magic after all. Might be the usual stabilizer doesn't cut it.... Hey, you never know... :smallwink:


Ok, now they're literally dragging kilkil around behind them. I'm SURE he's destined for something. Mentioned it once, calling it now: Kilkil kills Belkar.

Ooooh, that would be hilarious! It's always the ones you least suspect (or a bunch of meddling kids...) so why not? A lucky shot might do it. We shall see...


I dislike the fact Tarquin has gotten to the point of getting involved in pointless monologues about his axe and drow sign language, just to make it clear things dont always go his way because a bunch of people are unable to accept he's just extra prepared. The spoiler in Giant's first comment is probably only there so people wont go "HURR THAT OINTMENT DOESNT DO THAT DEM RAWRRRR".

Eh, it is a personality type. He is very theatrical, we have seen it in everything from his preferred lighting system to his color coordinated cape. I find it amusing, but then I am good at tuning out people who like to expound ad nasum in real life anyway, and T seems like the type to hear himself talk. Yes, it does have the added benefit of informing the readers of info. And we know that the characters are aware that they are being watched by an audience as evidenced by breaking the 4th wall thought the strip. Maybe he is deliberately expounding to his reading audience. No matter the rational, I still don’t mind it.

I also am not sure I would agree with extra-prepared. Based on how my old DMs ran games, I would call him prepared enough. We tended to accumulate knowledge that translated into a number of precautionary details like T does... I look at it as just learning from prior experience. (Yikes, I hope this does not restart the arguments on T. Oh well. I am not a huge fan of evil dude, but I appreciate his precautions.)

[deimos3428]

Keoghtom's ointment has been around since 1E DMG (see pg. 149). This is probably why Tarquin knows of it; he's old. I believe Rich deliberately spelled it "Keoghtum" to make it sound more medicinal.

Keoghtom himself was a mage in the Greyhawk setting, originally played by Tom Keogh. I believe at one point he became a quasi-deity.

[EvilAvocado]

I wish there was a "like" button on this board. EvilAvocado, you've made my day :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

My PLEASURE!

Soooo using this in my signature :P

Seriously though, where has my cleaver gone to...

[FAD!]

Best part: "Magic 71%" :smallbiggrin:


The spoiler in Giant's first comment is probably only there so people wont go "HURR THAT OINTMENT DOESNT DO THAT DEM RAWRRRR".

The Giant said so.

[e1_conquistador]

"Dat axe...!"

I think it says a lot about what a loot whore I am that the only thing I could pay attention to in the whole strip was "Sweet, free high-powered axe!"

[Emperordaniel]

none of which has anything to do with Tarquins offensive ability

your also forgetting all the feats he has to increase his damage with a 2 handed axe that he almost certainly doesnt ahve with his whip

Tarquin essentially has no offensive ability now although his defensive ability has increased

And where, pray tell, is the proof that he has those "offensive" feats? As far as we know, Tarquin's entire build is centered around defensive combat - NOT offensive.

Just look at, say, every fight Tarquin has been shown participating in to see his defensive build in action.

[Crisis21]

The inactive ingredient list for Keoghtom's ointment EXTRA STRENGTH is probably the best argument in favor of pre-marital coitus in the D&D multiverse that I have ever seen.

[Forikroder]

And where, pray tell, is the proof that he has those "offensive" feats? As far as we know, Tarquin's entire build is centered around defensive combat - NOT offensive.

Just look at, say, every fight Tarquin has been shown participating in to see his defensive build in action.

just lookat, say, Malack telling Tarquin to stop messing around and fight seriously

besides even assuming that that is tarquins main fighting style it still doesnt change that without his axe hes completely reliant on the rest of his party to do the damage, with only a whip we wont take someone down in a million years

[Joe the Rat]

And where, pray tell, is the proof that he has those "offensive" feats? As far as we know, Tarquin's entire build is centered around defensive combat - NOT offensive.

Just look at, say, every fight Tarquin has been shown participating in to see his defensive build in action.

It wouldn't preclude him having some offensive feats folded in - he has been fighting defensively by choice (first encounter), or at a friend's request (vs. Durkon). That said, he does show strong defensive (and almost Monk-ish) abilities. Given his ridiculous preparedness, if he was heavily loaded on offensive axe-fighting, he'd probably have a magical way to retrieve his favorite axe, or an easily accessible backup, or an Amulet of Transmute Puppies and Kittens into Greataxes or something.

The whip thing does fit with the whole film allusion thing. Apparently, he thinks he's Harrison Ford. Which makes Nale (and possibly Elan) Shia Labeouf. Take that as you like.

[SteveDJ]

New comic is up.

And before anyone says anything:

Yes, I know Keoghtum's Ointment doesn't normally remove deafness. That's why this is Extra Strength. :smalltongue:

But if it is Extra Strength - surely it must cure E.D. :smallbiggrin: ... so I'm sad it wasn't in the list. :smallfrown:

[thumbprince]

The inactive ingredient list for Keoghtom's ointment EXTRA STRENGTH is probably the best argument in favor of pre-marital coitus in the D&D multiverse that I have ever seen.

"Mysterious circumstances" indeed!

[SteveDJ]

oh look who doesnt have a back up axe, looks like Tarquins offensive ability has been reduced quite a bit

Yea, until he uses that whip to snatch/retrieve the axe (Hollywood style) from whoever is wielding it when they next meet...

[Forikroder]

Yea, until he uses that whip to snatch/retrieve the axe (Hollywood style) from whoever is wielding it when they next meet...

assuming they dont jsut sunder it or toss it into a bag of holding or something

[AutomatedTeller]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?

[Forikroder]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?

looking for group is a popular webcomic

[Bulldog Psion]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?

Well, I'm not really sure how it's funny, either. It's a reference to the video game message "looking for group" (LFG) but I don't see how that's supposed to elicit a laugh, myself.

Mind you, I enjoy the strip, but I'm not sure why the title is supposed to be funny (or even if it is supposed to be).

[legomaster00156]

Too bad an illusion would've done jack squat, considering Tarquin's nifty ring.

[Edhelras]

I sure could have used some Keoghtum's Ointment a week ago, I had a terrible flu. It probably would have helped also to some long-term medical conditions. Hey, if it cures cancer, it can probably deal with a migraine and asthma.

Now all we need to do is to mass-produce the ointment. Of course, getting the hearts of the virgins (taken on their wedding night) might be slightly problematic. Maybe we could replace it with Virgin Oil taken from some chef's kitchen?

Mind you, the virgin hearts were among the inactive ingredients. They're not essential for the effect (but perhaps for the flavor...).
I'm sure they could be replaced with the more... well-used variety... :smallwink:

[Jolly Steve]

2nd EDIT: And now I found out about Keoghtum too: "And Keoghtom is a quasi-deity of Oerth, detailed in the 1983 World of Greyhawk set and featuring in Gary Gygax's Gord novels as Lord Keogh." (from Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12351) forum).

That's why the ointment is also known as Keogh medicine.

[Joe22c]

I don't know why, but something about Tar. patting Zz' with the ointment makes me go, "awww, cute!"

[homeslice]

There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.
I agree. That was probably the first thing that really caught my eye in this comic and I thought it was rather endearing as well.

[ManuelSacha]

Love how Tarquin is still convinced Elan is very powerful and an asset to his team.

Father's pride, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[Mantine]

Oh look, Tarquin having just the right tools to solve everything. Yawn.


Oh, and I think Tarquin meant "tissue paper".

[Jay R]

The whip thing does fit with the whole film allusion thing. Apparently, he thinks he's Harrison Ford.

Except that the Star Wars references were pretty explicit - an evil masked warlord serving an emperor/empress, having fathered twin children separated at birth, leading to the great reveal, "I am your father, Elan."

That ain't Han.

[Xelbiuj]

Oh look, Tarquin having just the right tools to solve everything. Yawn.


Oh, and I think Tarquin meant "tissue paper".

I feel the same way generally but a fighter carrying some sort of healing potion and a back up weapon is hardly deus ex machina.

At least Rich had him leave it with the dino instead of on his persons where he would have just used the whip to grab his axe.

Hopefully Tarq will die alone, forgotten and in an anti-climatic fashion. An off screen death, maybe getting stuck in a trap then forgotten for 20 strips, only to have it pan back to his skeleton, would be perfectly poetic and just.

[Anarion]

This comic made me feel a bit young and/or not as into the hobby as I had thought. I started D&D with Baldur's Gate and only got into the paper version with 3.0, and I had never heard the term Keoghtum before.

Interesting comic otherwise. Elan's reaction at the end reflected my own surprise. Of course, dramatically, this probably means that the Order will suffer a major reversal of some kind. Or maybe they'll have to team up with Tarquin to protect themselves from Xykon. It would be hilarious if Tarquin died a heroe's death saving both his children after all his speeches about how he wants to be the villain and enjoy his life until his own son overthrows him in climactic fashion.

[Riverdance]

Elan seems particularly perceptive in this one.

[Bluepaw]

This is the first time Tarquin has acknowleged alignments, and he also refered to a group he is part of as "evil."

That's interesting... is it just fluff in his usual wordy, sarcastic repartee, or is he signaling that even if alignment doesn't "exist" in an absolute sense, it's still a rhetorical tool to bind people together / manipulate people who believe in it...

#gradschool

[Brom]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?


Well, I'm not really sure how it's funny, either. It's a reference to the video game message "looking for group" (LFG) but I don't see how that's supposed to elicit a laugh, myself.

Mind you, I enjoy the strip, but I'm not sure why the title is supposed to be funny (or even if it is supposed to be).

http://lfgcomic.com/page/1

It's a shout out to another webcomic. Comic artists do that from time to time.

[SlyJohnny]

Huh. I just yesterday got my hands on the sourcebook Dungeonscape (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeonscape-Essential-Adventuring-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786941189), which Rich co-authored, where I read a list of dungeon item packages, which included this "Keoghtum's ointment". But I could not discover where it was from. Couldn't find it in the DMG. Does anyone know? Strange to see it resurface here...

EDIT: Actually, now I discovered that this is the same as Restorative Ointment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#restorativeOintment), just with a cooler name...\\

Keoghtum's ointment is the canon name. The SRD can't use "product identity", you see, which means that monsters like Beholders are omitted from its list and it can't use the names of specific D&D characters in the descriptions of spells or items. So Keoghtum's ointment becomes a more generic Restorative ointment, and we get artifacts like "The Saint's Mace", and the spell names are bereft of references to Tenser or Bigby. This occasionally causes confusion between people that use the SRD almost exclusively and those that don't.

That ointment is handy to have, although not very cost effective at all. You're much better off loading up on a much larger number of scrolls and potions for the same price. Still, having several healing options in one package that even the fighter can use to help his companions is alluring to some, and in low-magic campaigns, it means you can make a healing item with just Craft Wondrous Item and not have to worry about wands or scrolls or potions.

I guess that another way that the ointment is genuinely superior to potions of equivalent effect is that it doesn't necessarily require your character to do anything to receive the effect. You could command your hireling or your Unseen Servant to smear the stuff on you while you spent your own action casting a spell, rather then wasting a Standard Action on swigging some potion just to mitigate the enemies debuff.

[Warren Dew]

There's something about smiling Zz'dtri that so gosh darn adorable.
Agreed. It also illustrates how Tarquin has managed to keep his group going for so long.

[DaveMcW]

The inactive ingredient list for Keoghtom's ointment EXTRA STRENGTH is probably the best argument in favor of pre-marital coitus in the D&D multiverse that I have ever seen.

That strategy won't help if you're trying to avoid being sacrificed to an orc god (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html).

[AutomatedTeller]

Thanks for the explanations on the title. I had not heard of that one.

[sims796]

I also like how disappointed Tarquin was at Nale. He really was testing him, and Nale fell short.

[Hardcore]

I love it when these get meta. Seriously, when's the last time a group of good guys just did a great job and WON a fight?

My friends roll their eyes at me when I treat this comic like literature, but I love it when Giant screws around with narrative conventions.

This is the same reason people love Joss Whedon - defying convention in ways that make the story better.
+10!

:smallbiggrin:

[ManuelSacha]

Oh, and btw... Tarquin has started giving orders to his "idiot son".
And Nale is too shaken (and alone) to protest (for now).

[LadyEowyn]

Mostly a filler/exposition strip. That's the frustrating thing about this format - it's like reading a book that's released one page at a time. Hopefully things will start progressing soon (i.e.: movement forward in the V arc, something of interest happening with Malack, and Xykon and Redcloack and the MitD showing up). The whole battle was interesting in showing how the Order has improved, but it hasn't actually moved the plot forward at all.

Tarquin is once again prepared for everything. I'm okay with that provided that he is defeated by the end of this book and actually makes one or more visible and clear mistakes.

EDIT: Oh, and between the ancient pyramid and the whip, I'm expecting at least one Indiana Jones reference before this arc ends.

[kickassfrog]

I think I know who is going to end up with Tarquin's Axe!
Thog!

Yeah, for some reason I can't shake the feeling that
Thog is going to still be alive and return for revenge on nale's daddy


No idea why though, maybe I'm just wishing for it.

[SoC175]

Huh. I just yesterday got my hands on the sourcebook Dungeonscape (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeonscape-Essential-Adventuring-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786941189), which Rich co-authored, where I read a list of dungeon item packages, which included this "Keoghtum's ointment". But I could not discover where it was from. Couldn't find it in the DMG. Does anyone know? Strange to see it resurface here...

EDIT: Actually, now I discovered that this is the same as Restorative Ointment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#restorativeOintment), just with a cooler name...

2nd EDIT: And now I found out about Keoghtum too: "And Keoghtom is a quasi-deity of Oerth, detailed in the 1983 World of Greyhawk set and featuring in Gary Gygax's Gord novels as Lord Keogh." (from Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12351) forum).

3rd EDIT: So, I guess this might be called the second time (that I discovered) where Rich draws on his sourcebook, then, the other being the acidborn shark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html).
But now that I actually own a copy of the Dungeonscape book, I'll certainly look more closelier to see other instances where it's referenced in the OOTS!Keoghtum's ointment is a very classic D&D item. The Restorative Ointment is due to the SRD purging classic D&D names and replacing them with generic names.

There's one major flaw with Roy's plan, which was Durkon was surrounded by the enemy, included a really good fighter. How would Durkon escape? Thor's Might! Divine Power! ... how does the enemy fighters escape?

[Kish]

And where, pray tell, is the proof that he has those "offensive" feats? As far as we know, Tarquin's entire build is centered around defensive combat - NOT offensive.

Just look at, say, every fight Tarquin has been shown participating in to see his defensive build in action.
There is no indication at all that Tarquin is particularly dependent on the weapon he pulled out of storage. Forikroder is just insisting on it for some reason.

[WindStruck]

Nice strip! It's too bad there aren't any natives or some other type of mook guards running around the temple. Cause it would be really funny to see:

Guards angrily charging at Tarquin and company. :smallfurious:

Tarquin smirks and casually reaches for his magical doodad of annihilation. :smallamused:

Utter shock washes over Tarquin's face as he realizes he's lost it, then turns tail and runs! :smalleek:

[Sweet_Goddess]

Looking for (re)group ? But where's Richard ?

Riding his dragon, with a panther co-pilot, off over a the woods, with a half-troll female and an elven male... Sheesh, everyone should know that.

Though that brings up some interesting bits of ideas...

Richard vs Xykon?

Elan vs Cale? (Nale vs Cale would be more poetic, but paragons of innocent goodness goes to Elan and Cale)

Sooba vs Mr. Scruffy?

Lord Hctib Elttil vs Qarr?

Tim vs Thog?

Bunny vs Banjo?

Pella vs Durkon?

Krunch vs Roy?

Captain Tah'vraay vs Julio Scoundrél?

Ray'd vs O-Chul?

Maikos and the Villagers vs the Wights, Zombies, and Mummies?

Chief Engineer Toyk vs Lord Shojo?

Dnah vs... okay, I can't think of anyone in OotS for a giant walking hand to fight

Opinions? other match ups?

[Nightpenguin]

Dnah vs... okay, I can't think of anyone in OotS for a giant walking hand to fight

Bigby's Cat-retrieving (or other) Hand?

[Emperordaniel]

Except that the Star Wars references were pretty explicit - an evil masked warlord serving an emperor/empress, having fathered twin children separated at birth, leading to the great reveal, "I am your father, Elan."

That ain't Han.

The last obvious Star Wars references ended quite a while ago, so it isn't implausible for there to be an upcoming Indiana Jones reference. Add in the factor that this temple may still be heavily trapped in areas, and we could have a giant rolling boulder of doom coming our way soon. :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

There is no indication at all that Tarquin is particularly dependent on the weapon he pulled out of storage. Forikroder is just insisting on it for some reason.

Ironically, the only evidence we have to go on is that Tarquin's backup weapon ISN'T an axe, which argues directly against Fonkroder's claim that Tarquin's feat tree centers around his axe.

While, sure, Tarquin may prefer axes, the fact that he carries other weapons rather than dozens of spare axes indicates that his build ISN'T axe dependant.

[Mutant Sheep]

Riding his dragon, with a panther co-pilot, off over a the woods, with a half-troll female and an elven male... Sheesh, everyone should know that.

Though that brings up some interesting bits of ideas...

Richard vs Xykon?

Bunny vs Banjo?

Maikos and the Villagers vs the Wights, Zombies, and Mummies?

Chief Engineer Toyk vs Lord Shojo?

Dnah vs... okay, I can't think of anyone in OotS for a giant walking hand to fight

Opinions? other match ups?


Bigby's Cat-retrieving (or other) Hand?
Richard would win by sake of him being able to sing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g&feature=relmfu) :smallamused:

Banjo can smite. Bunny just has blue cult people. Shojo has acid trips, and whathis-name general-son-badass guy (I haven't read LFG in a while, all right? :smallsigh:) or his dad vs. Tarquin would be fun though. Maybe.:smalltongue:

[runeghost]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?

Looking For Group is the phrase used in World of Warcraft (and probably other MMOs) by someone searching for a group of players to do a dungeon run. It's also the name of an in-game chat channel used for the same purpose. And, as others have pointed out, it also served as inspiration for the title of the webcomic of the same name.

[Smolder]

Richard vs Xykon?


Richard and Xykon have very similar personalities. Until recently, they were basically the same person, but Richard has been going soft lately, only sadistically murdering cute baby animals for the greater good and not solely entertainment.

[rewinn]

I might agree with Tarquin in questioning Roy's decision to hold Elan out of the conflict. IIRC Elan's more lightly armored than Roy and therefore can move faster. In general, this would've been helpful in rushing help to Durkon in the middle of the enemy party, and as things worked out, Elan may well have been able to poke at Z and disrupt the teleport.

[Smolder]

D&D Question: Does Elan get XP for that battle? Is he mad because he didn't participate enough to get XP? I'd be mad too if that was the rule. He could have at least strummed his lute a couple times to buff Haley's archery a bit.

[zimmerwald1915]

D&D Question: Does Elan get XP for that battle?
Yes, he does.

[Smolder]

Yes, he does.

Great. Thanks!

[KillingAScarab]

Is anyone else excited by the idea of Tarquin with a whip? Referring to his combat abilities of course, not any disturbing long-term daddy issues.I am, definitely. I hear they are quite often used when a problem comes along. :)

More seriously, I am already aware of a few of the tricks which can be pulled off with a whip, but at least one of them tends to require spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm). I would love to see what Tarquin can do without any (known) spellcasting ability.

[lio45]

Nope, french for texture is texture :smalltongue: tissure is not a french word *is french* ^^

Yep, I don't know where he learned his French but I'd be asking for a refund.

What's ironic here is that the English word texture is one of these words that have been directly cribbed from French after the 1066 conquest. Texture in English is texture because, and only because, texture in French is texture.

[/off-topic]

That ointment label was pure gold. Nice work!!! :)

[Kish]

Ironically, the only evidence we have to go on is that Tarquin's backup weapon ISN'T an axe, which argues directly against Fonkroder's claim that Tarquin's feat tree centers around his axe.

While, sure, Tarquin may prefer axes, the fact that he carries other weapons rather than dozens of spare axes indicates that his build ISN'T axe dependant.
Indeed, he has an obvious reason to be using a greataxe that has nothing to do with him ever having taken a weapon-specific feat in his life: It's Thog's favored weapon, and he's posing as Thog.

Roy has a ton of feats devoted to a single weapon and he spent a period of the story completely weaponless because that weapon got broken. Tarquin has many backup weapons of different types, which suggests that he doesn't favor any particular weapon type, much less a single weapon.

[jere7my]

Oh look, Tarquin having just the right tools to solve everything. Yawn.

Except for the things he points out in this strip: he didn't pack a backup axe, Zz'd'tri's deafness prevented him from teleporting to his chambers instead of the middle of the desert, and he can't heal Kilkil with what he brought. That's not really "just the right tools to solve everything," is it? What he had was a healing item and a lesser backup weapon, which seems like pretty standard kit.

Moreover, he's expecting Malack to head back to the "room with the corpses", which Malack didn't show any sign of doing, last time we saw him. He was trying to find a way around the steel door, which makes it likely that he's going to have to wander deeper into the pyramid before he learns that the rest of his team has fled (if he ever does). It's possible that Tarquin will find Malack waiting for him by the entrance, but that's not what Malack said he was going to do.

Storywise, I predict that Tarquin's small errors will have major repercussions. But we'll have to wait and see.

[Emperordaniel]

Indeed, he has an obvious reason to be using a greataxe that has nothing to do with him ever having taken a weapon-specific feat in his life: It's Thog's favored weapon, and he's posing as Thog.

Roy has a ton of feats devoted to a single weapon and he spent a period of the story completely weaponless because that weapon got broken. Tarquin has many backup weapons of different types, which suggests that he doesn't favor any particular weapon type, much less a single weapon.

Pretty much this; now that we've seen the whip, that's what, like, four different weapons he's used in combat on-screen?

1: Sword and shield, when fighting Nale for the throne of the Empire of Blood
2: Dagger, when fighting Elan during the parade (and later wielding it against Nale briefly)
3: Greataxe, while posing as Thog during the battle in the pyramid
4: Whip, backup weapon for the greataxe

Who knows how many other weapons he's used over the years.

[Psyren]

There's one major flaw with Roy's plan, which was Durkon was surrounded by the enemy, included a really good fighter. How would Durkon escape?

Lots of smoke, they'd all be discombobulated by HW, and Durkon's a cleric (they're pretty tough, you know.) A few rounds of total defense would be all he needed for Roy and Belkar to close the gap.

[Glory of Arioch]

Tarquin's build, if it's optimized for any weapon, is probably for axes. He mentioned in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html that he was going to get his axe out of storage in panel 5. I do like the defensive combat thing, though -- it seems like he is very good at not taking damage. You can tell best in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html -- he seems to be focusing on disarming and haranguing his opponents rather than doing them any actual harm. This, however, could just be him holding back. It'll be harder to see until he's put into a situation that is actually dangerous to him.

Regarding the Zz'dtri smiling, it seems perfectly plausible to me. Imagine you're an outcast, living in a society that instinctively fears you and your kind. All of a sudden, you meet a person who not only knows your customs, and your sign language (is this even a thing it seems awfully goofy but w/e), but elects to triage you first instead of his own flesh and blood? That seems like it oughta endear him to the person in question awfully quick, no matter what Tarquin's actual intentions are.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't see any particular evidence that Tarquin's reliant on one specific weapon, but logic suggests that he is weakened by losing his axe, simply because a whip is less capable of doing serious damage than an axe, and an axe can be used to block other people's weapons while a whip cannot.

It's not a disaster for him, but it's a detriment.

[Jay R]

The last obvious Star Wars references ended quite a while ago, so it isn't implausible for there to be an upcoming Indiana Jones reference. Add in the factor that this temple may still be heavily trapped in areas, and we could have a giant rolling boulder of doom coming our way soon. :smallbiggrin:

Of course that could happen. I was responding to somebody saying that the whip plus the Star Wars references indicate that Tarquin thinks he's Harrison Ford. I was just showing that the Star Wars references do not support that notion.

[Incom]

Well, in any case, would it be fair to call Elan John Williams?:smallbiggrin:

[OoTLink]

Oh, and btw... Tarquin has started giving orders to his "idiot son".
And Nale is too shaken (and alone) to protest (for now).

hahaha good point. Somehow I'd still prefer Nale being the bad guy to Tarquin, because Tarquin seems to always have backups prepared and never misses a beat. Then again, what can you expect from a guy that runs an empire? XD

[Smolder]

Pretty much this; now that we've seen the whip, that's what, like, four different weapons he's used in combat on-screen?

1: Sword and shield, when fighting Nale for the throne of the Empire of Blood
2: Dagger, when fighting Elan during the parade (and later wielding it against Nale briefly)
3: Greataxe, while posing as Thog during the battle in the pyramid
4: Whip, backup weapon for the greataxe

Who knows how many other weapons he's used over the years.

It make senses that a person who has studied "how to defend against many obscure combat techniques (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)" would also be somewhat proficient with a wide range of weapons. Spending a lot of time specializing in any one thing would seem to work against his desired versatility.

[dtilque]

More seriously, I am already aware of a few of the tricks which can be pulled off with a whip, but at least one of them tends to require spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm).

Guess who happens to have that very spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html)..... Could make for an interesting encounter, if they happen to meet again.

[Sweet_Goddess]

Pretty much this; now that we've seen the whip, that's what, like, four different weapons he's used in combat on-screen?

1: Sword and shield, when fighting Nale for the throne of the Empire of Blood
2: Dagger, when fighting Elan during the parade (and later wielding it against Nale briefly)
3: Greataxe, while posing as Thog during the battle in the pyramid
4: Whip, backup weapon for the greataxe

Who knows how many other weapons he's used over the years.

Tarquin with Waraxe (First Appearance of Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) albeit unnamed and helmeted, but still identified as their father)
Tarquin fights unarmed (2nd Appearance of Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), still unnamed, but identified by rank)
Tarquin later in strips continued from 2nd Appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), including both usage of the Wareaxe and the Sword and Shield combination
Tarquin many appearances later armed with stiletto/dagger and sharp wit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html)
Tarquin with Throwing Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) vs Nale
Tarquin with an Axe to grind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html) with Roy
Tarquin deciding that when a problem comes along that you must whip it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html)

[Knaight]

There is no indication at all that Tarquin is particularly dependent on the weapon he pulled out of storage. Forikroder is just insisting on it for some reason.

There's evidence to the contrary - Tarquin has been portrayed with a sword and shield before, he fought Elan off with a dagger, it's implying that he can use a whip now, etc. That said, the whip is very different from the rest of these, and may well be a tool more than a real weapon.

[GSFB]

If Tarquin's PRIMARY weapon build was the axe, why would it be IN STORAGE? This, to me, indicates he rarely uses the axe - but in formulating a plan to impersonate Thog and possibly take on Roy, he knew he would need to go into storage for the "really good" axe has been hanging on to.

My speculation is that Tarquin really is built for defensive fighting - it's how he's stayed alive all this time. The whip is a good defensive weapon - and that is why he has the whip with him - it is what he KNOWS he can use, if he has to, should he not be able to use the axe.

[WindStruck]

If Tarquin's PRIMARY weapon build was the axe, why would it be IN STORAGE? This, to me, indicates he rarely uses the axe - but in formulating a plan to impersonate Thog and possibly take on Roy, he knew he would need to go into storage for the "really good" axe has been hanging on to.

My speculation is that Tarquin really is built for defensive fighting - it's how he's stayed alive all this time. The whip is a good defensive weapon - and that is why he has the whip with him - it is what he KNOWS he can use, if he has to, should he not be able to use the axe.

I think there is some misunderstanding. His axe wasn't in storage; he was using it. If he had other axes in storage, it would be because he most likely doesn't need more than one at a time!

I'm really lost at where you are coming from... :smallconfused:

[oppyu]

You know what? I could pile on with the host of people disagreeing with the one guy who said Tarq's offensive ability is critically impaired without his axe, but that would be boring.

We haven't seen Tarquin inflict serious damage with anything aside from his big freaking axe. With his dagger he just parried and disarmed, with his shield and sword we don't see him actually hitting anyone. It is possible that his build is centred around using a big freaking axe to inflict damage (notice how when he decided that he was rejoining the epic campaign fray, his first thought was to get his big freaking axe out of storage), but as a fairly inactive general, he finds it more practical to carry daggers, whips and other weapons he can utilise defensively while his big freaking army swarms in and finishes the job.



I think there is some misunderstanding. His axe wasn't in storage; he was using it. If he had other axes in storage, it would be because he most likely doesn't need more than one at a time!

I'm really lost at where you are coming from... :smallconfused:
When was Tarq using his axe before inferring that his axe was in storage? #822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

[rrgg]

Oh great, kilkil is back with team evil now. The order of the stick can't even tie their shoes without it coming back around to bite them in thethe behind can they?

[ManuelSacha]

Oh great, kilkil is back with team evil now. The order of the stick can't even tie their shoes without it coming back around to bite them in thethe behind can they?

I'm guessing you mean the Linear Guild, and not Team Evil.
If that's the case... Kilkil never left it, he was only (momentarily) impaired.
However... I don't see where all the crying is coming from. Are you really that worried about underpowered cannon-fodder Kilkil? :smallconfused:

[Edhelras]

Regarding the Zz'dtri smiling....
...and your sign language (is this even a thing it seems awfully goofy but w/e)...

The drow sign language (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Drow_Sign_language)was a cool feature of the drow in earlier editions and in particular in RA Salvatore's novels.
It allowed quite precise, soundless, sight-dependent communication, and when coupled with the previous infravision (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Infravision#cite_ref-0)that drow and other Underdark creatures possessed, it allowed drow ambushers to coordinate their attacks while operating in total darkness. Because their hands gave off heat - so the hand movements used in the sign-making could be seen.
I think this was a really cool concept, contributing to the terrifying powers of the malevolent drow. But I can see that it was a difficult game mechanic, which is why it's been focused less on in later editions (is it still in at all?) and why infravision was replaced by the more bland darkvision property.

I wonder if this really stems from making drow playable characters? If they had remained NPC monsters, perhaps the issues with the sign language and even the infravision wouldn't have been that disruptive to game mechanics? Anyway, I feel that the need for balance that comes from drow becoming PCs, has kind of ruined some of that horrible, nightmarish, unpredictable, overwhelming evilness that the drow signified before.

My first encounter with the drow was actually in Baldur's Gate II (except from the first appearance of Drizzt in BG1), which I think created a very strong feeling of boundless evil and danger. And I also remember well the first reaction of the surface dwellers when Drizzt first came to the surface world, in Salvatore's novels. The alien-ness and horror - that's what I think drow should represent in the D&D game - and I think having them as PCs goes contrary to that.

[Killer Angel]

You know what? I could pile on with the host of people disagreeing with the one guy who said Tarq's offensive ability is critically impaired without his axe, but that would be boring.


Long story short: a whip does less damage than an axe. The axe was Tarquin's first weapon of choice, while the whip... the third one.
This doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't no more dangerous, but certainly his approach will be different.


Ironically, the only evidence we have to go on is that Tarquin's backup weapon ISN'T an axe, which argues directly against Fonkroder's claim that Tarquin's feat tree centers around his axe.


But he's also regretting for not having packed a spare axe. So, his backup weapon would have been another axe.

The emergency pouch is for unusual circumstances, and probably wasn't "upgraded" for the mission.

...but sure as hell, Tarquin knows some nasty whip-trick.

[sims796]

I always thought that his primary weapon was an axe, and he was skilled in a variety of back-up weapons.

[Reaver225]

Zzd'ti's smiley face just makes me want to smile too. He looks so happy!

[Bundin]

My reply in the #862 thread:

After my first reading I though "that sure is anti-climactic, howmany easy escapes are going to prolong this drawn out storyline?"

After the second reading, I realised that I haven't seen where they ended up though. "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" is very much an option here. If they end up somewhere safe, able to regroup/recover then yes, it'll be another boring escape from the LG. But I'll hold off judgement until I've seen the next few comics though :) Can't judge a story-writing decision without seeing at least part of the followup happenings.

Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.

[taragui]

Nope, french for texture is texture :smalltongue: tissure is not a french word *is french* ^^

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/tissure).

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.

[Kish]

I'm guessing you mean the Linear Guild, and not Team Evil.
If that's the case... Kilkil never left it, he was only (momentarily) impaired.
However... I don't see where all the crying is coming from. Are you really that worried about underpowered cannon-fodder Kilkil? :smallconfused:
Guessing rrgg has Kilkil confused with Yukyuk.

[theinsulabot]

My reply in the #862 thread:


Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.

the last strip was funny, kinda, but I will admit that it seemed like a buzzkill. reminds me of one of the kids shows in the 90's where the villain crawls off stage at the end of the show to avoid any meaningful plot development.


Status Quo is God

[hakflem]

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/tissure).

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.
You're partially right on this one,

But being a native allows you though to know whether a word is still in use or not. And as a fairly educated 39 yo french person, I can assure you I've never ever heard or read "tissure" in my life. And I can also assure you that french for texture is texture.

I also looked up that "tissure" word earlier today and I would probably say it's a very specific term used in very particular conditions/ or only used in a few rare jobs.

[Tundar]

Looking for (re)group ? But where's Richard ?

He's flying around on the back of a dragon, you know :)


This strip is pure awesome!
Even I got the hidden references.

[FujinAkari]

Dictionaries happen to disagree with you (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/tissure).

Being a native speaker doesn't mean you know the entire vocabulary of a language.

that's because you're using the wrong dictionary. Looking at an English to French dictionary will tell you that The French word for Texture is Texture (http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/texture)

[hakflem]

Long story short: a whip does less damage than an axe. The axe was Tarquin's first weapon of choice, while the whip... the third one.
This doesn't mean that Tarquin isn't no more dangerous, but certainly his approach will be different.



But he's also regretting for not having packed a spare axe. So, his backup weapon would have been another axe.

The emergency pouch is for unusual circumstances, and probably wasn't "upgraded" for the mission.

...but sure as hell, Tarquin knows some nasty whip-trick.
I'd wager that being an epic level warrior Tarquin will have a truckload of Feats (Spring Attack, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Trip/ Sunder/ Disarm, Combat Reflexes) that will allow him some fancy tricks with a whip's reach and Rich's imagination :)

I'm a little rusty on D&D v3.5, so forgive me if I make a mistake here, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him make a lot of Attacks of Opportunity on V or D (more so since V doesn't seem to have that great a Concentration skill and will possibly fizzle should the two eventually meet), and possibly Halley while she's sniping the LG.

On the other hand, I just checked on the D20srd website, and AoO with whips (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip) is a big no no (you don't seem to threaten the area), so off goes my theory !

Back to Indiana Jones references then I suppose or the whip he'll be using stores a few nasty surprises

[hakflem]

looking for group is a popular webcomic

To each his own I guess, but after reading 100ish pages I got fed up with it. I couldn't draw even if my life depended on it, but I'm not trying to make a living out of it, but the guy(s) who draw LFG would really need to learn what perspectives mean...

It's just yet another badly drawn copy of several GOOD webcomics (OOTS, /gu..., Noddwick), set in a very WoW flavoured universe (you know: gaudy colours, huge weapons & armours, classes), some D&D (beholder), Everquest(LFG, hail jokes), Star Wars, a Song of Ice & Fire among others "very subtle, funny" references, filled with the most ridiculous heroic fantasy/ RPGs clichés you could find.

Move along, this is not the webcomics we're looking for.

[JCAll]

I guess this comic guarantees that T is fighting Xykon at some point. If there's one thing I know it's that guys with whips are the natural enemy of the undead.

[Jay R]

Well, in any case, would it be fair to call Elan John Williams?:smallbiggrin:

Elan is one of the twins separated at birth, whose father is the masked and armored warlord of the empress.

Adding this one other piece of data (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html) (last panel), I conclude that he is Leia.

[FujinAkari]

I'd wager that being an epic level warrior

We should note that neither epic level nor warrior are anything more than speculation and certainly not reinforced by anything in the comic.

All that we KNOW abotu Tarquin is that he is at least 17th level.

[Finagle]

It is possible that his build is centred around using a big freaking axe to inflict damage (notice how when he decided that he was rejoining the epic campaign fray, his first thought was to get his big freaking axe out of storage)
Mmmmm, that doesn't mean it was his #1 weapon. It just meant that he needed to impersonate Thog, whose primary weapon is an axe. "My axe" can refer to any possession, like "my sword", "my whip", or "my bec-de-corbin". It doesn't necessarily mean that this particular axe is Tarquin's favored weapon.

[Mr. Pants]

It's too bad that Tarquin doesn't realize that Malack is trapped behind an iron door and therefore doesn't realize what's going on...:smallfrown:

[Snails]

I wonder if this really stems from making drow playable characters? If they had remained NPC monsters, perhaps the issues with the sign language and even the infravision wouldn't have been that disruptive to game mechanics? Anyway, I feel that the need for balance that comes from drow becoming PCs, has kind of ruined some of that horrible, nightmarish, unpredictable, overwhelming evilness that the drow signified before.

My first encounter with the drow was actually in Baldur's Gate II (except from the first appearance of Drizzt in BG1), which I think created a very strong feeling of boundless evil and danger. And I also remember well the first reaction of the surface dwellers when Drizzt first came to the surface world, in Salvatore's novels. The alien-ness and horror - that's what I think drow should represent in the D&D game - and I think having them as PCs goes contrary to that.

I like the idea of the sign language. Regarding Infravision, that was just a cheesy pseudo-scientific explanation that created more questions than it answered. Things underground are all extremely close to the exact same temperature. Infravision does not explain why those Drow just do not fall into open pits all the time.

The drive to standardize Drow was well underway in the timeframe in 1e, and became ever greater over time. IMNSHO the underlying problem was the economic drive to pump out material for a popular concept, that resulted in a growing volume of depressingly unoriginal material. Playing Drow as PCs was just the end result of Drow that were already merely elves with an evil paintjob and a few magic tricks.

The original material for Drow in G3/D1-3/Q1 suggests that Drow worship many Demonlords -- it only so happens that the plot the PCs care about primarily concerns Lolth. In Deities & Demigods we see Correllian and Lolth given primacy over all elvish existence, which is contrary to the spirit of Gygax's original notes. Once we hit 2e, it all goes rapidly down hill...

[THeBigZ]

Great Comic! Can't Wait For The Next One! Haha, And Now We Know Where Elan Was!!

[loser0ll]

Huh... Does anyone else feel like this comic just gave us a bit of a hint that Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is most likely a man? Or is it just me? I realize it isn't foolproof evidence, I will admit, but it does seem to indicate that either the father is incompetent in gender discrimination, or Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is breaking the usual gender-based policies that seem to be followed by characters in this comic, or Vaarsuvius is a male. Does anyone else know what I mean here?

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh... Does anyone else feel like this comic just gave us a bit of a hint that Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is most likely a man? Or is it just me? I realize it isn't foolproof evidence, I will admit, but it does seem to indicate that either the father is incompetent in gender discrimination, or Vaarsuvius(spelling?) is breaking the usual gender-based policies that seem to be followed by characters in this comic, or Vaarsuvius is a male. Does anyone else know what I mean here?
First, you're spelling Vaarsuvius correctly.

Second, Tarquin is referring to the Linear Guild as "this evil adventuring party", and Vaarsuvius - despite some, including me, insisting before the Giant inscribed "Vaarsuvius is True Neutral" on tablets of sapphire alongside "Belkar is Chaotic Evil," "Durkon is Lawful Good," and "Tarquin is Lawful Evil" - that Vaarsuvius was some variety of evil, is not with the Linear Guild. By no stretch of the imagination is Tarquin referring to Vaarsuvius at any point in this strip.

Third, even if Tarquin was referring to Vaarsuvius, it wouldn't make a difference. Characters have applied gendered pronouns to Vaarsuvius before, reflecting nothing more than their own perceptions and biases, rather than the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. Tarquin might sometimes seem omniscient and omnipotent, but really, he isn't, and his opinion on this subject especially, which he has studied with much less care than, say, the art of mollifying a petulant dragon, is no more valid than any other character's.

[loser0ll]

First, you're spelling Vaarsuvius correctly.

Second, Tarquin is referring to the Linear Guild as "this evil adventuring party", and Vaarsuvius - despite some, including me, insisting before the Giant inscribed "Vaarsuvius is True Neutral" on tablets of sapphire alongside "Belkar is Chaotic Evil," "Durkon is Lawful Good," and "Tarquin is Lawful Evil" - that Vaarsuvius was some variety of evil, is not with the Linear Guild. By no stretch of the imagination is Tarquin referring to Vaarsuvius at any point in this strip.

Third, even if Tarquin was referring to Vaarsuvius, it wouldn't make a difference. Characters have applied gendered pronouns to Vaarsuvius before, reflecting nothing more than their own perceptions and biases, rather than the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. Tarquin might sometimes seem omniscient and omnipotent, but really, he isn't, and his opinion on this subject especially, which he has studied with much less care than, say, the art of mollifying a petulant dragon, is no more valid than any other character's.

1) Thanks for clarifying that my spelling was correct.
2) I realized in advance that nobody was referring to Vaarsuvius directly.
3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

[hakflem]

We should note that neither epic level nor warrior are anything more than speculation and certainly not reinforced by anything in the comic.

All that we KNOW abotu Tarquin is that he is at least 17th level.

Sigh....

Ok then, so let's call it educated guesses. Does that suit you better ?
Considering Tarquin must have been adventuring for far longer than The OOTS have, seems to have been be very succesful at staying alive despite a lot of opposition, monsters, PCs, assassins, that he's been the ruler of an empire of doom for a long time, and that said OOTS members are around level 15 by the end of the latest book IIRC, I'd even bet he's to lvl 30 than lvl17.

Now considering everyone sees T as a very defensive NPC, what better class than fighter can provide him with the proper list of skills (guess who's got heaps of skill points to spend on Handle Animal to teach his mount handy tricks and Ride (dragon/ dinosaur/ horse) and feats ?

10 gp says he's got Infinite Deflection and/ or Exceptionnal Deflection,
25 pp says he's also got an impressive array of other offensive feats:
Combat Expertise (speculation again but he looks like a smart guy in my book just like Roy except he's been doing it for 30 more years),
The whole series of Improved <XXXX> feats to avoid causing AoO,
Deflect/ Snatch Arrows,
Dodge -> Whirlwind Attack,
Epic/ Greater Weapon Spec. (Great Axe),
Epic/ Greater Weapon Focus (Great Axe),
Improved critical (Great Axe),
Power Attack,
(Great) Cleave,
Dire Charge,
Overwhelming/ Devastating Critical (Great Axe),
Damage Reduction (with Epic Feats & armour ?) ?

Add in a huge stack of HPs to be able to toy with the OOTS on top of the pyramid for a few rounds without any major trouble even when Haley backstabs him, and there you go.

Don't let his fleeing and defensive fighting deceive you, he can single handedly kick the OOTs' butt any time he wants just like Xykon would, and he will do so when he's done playing with both his sons.

He's definitely not a Barbarian (not thick enough), nor Ranger, or Paladin (yeah right) so I guess Blackguard is also out of the way too. What's left ? Assassin ? Dwarven Defender ? Eldricht Knight ? Marshal ?

With such a high BAB, fighter is the only answer we have left IMO, but who am I to make such dumb asumptions ?

[jere7my]

3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sigh....

Ok then, so let's call it educated guesses. Does that suit you better ?
"Rabid fanboying leading said rabid fanboy to make up evidence to fit a preconceived notion" would suit just fine. :smallsmile:


Considering Tarquin must have been adventuring for far longer than The OOTS have, seems to have been be very succesful at staying alive despite a lot of opposition, monsters, PCs, assassins, that he's been the ruler of an empire of doom for a long time, and that said OOTS members are around level 15 by the end of the latest book IIRC, I'd even bet he's to lvl 30 than lvl17.
Shojo's sixty or so years on the throne, dealing with precisely the sort of problems you mention (opposition, monsters, PCs, and especially assassins) were worth fourteen levels of an NPC class. Redcloak's four months of ruling a city and dealing with these threats, but also surviving an attack by an uber-wizard with an ECL so high that defeating the ABD didn't give her XP, got him one level in his preexisting PC class. Tarquin has put twenty years into his little scheme, so let's be generous and give him five levels for it, more than Shojo's fairly ruler-average tenure would suggest, but less than Redcloak's outlier of a tenure.

Twenty years ago, when Tarquin came to the Western Continent, he was strong enough to conquer a kingdom and kill its king, but weak enough to get sent packing and literally, from what we're shown, running for his life, by a coalition of rival powers. He was also low-level enough that he and his party had to raid a dungeon for startup cash to fuel his scheme, rather than, say, simply selling a magic item or two that they owned. This sounds about commensurate with level 12. Incidentally, Tarquin compares his image of himself in his adventuring days to Roy, who is at least a level 12 fighter and is probably not more than level 15.


10 gp says he's got Infinite Deflection and/ or Exceptionnal Deflection,
25 pp says he's also got an impressive array of other offensive feats:
Combat Expertise (speculation again but he looks like a smart guy in my book just like Roy except he's been doing it for 30 more years),
The whole series of Improved <XXXX> feats to avoid causing AoO,
Deflect/ Snatch Arrows,
Dodge -> Whirlwind Attack,
Epic/ Greater Weapon Spec. (Great Axe),
Epic/ Greater Weapon Focus (Great Axe),
Improved critical (Great Axe),
Power Attack,
(Great) Cleave,
Dire Charge,
Overwhelming/ Devastating Critical (Great Axe),
Damage Reduction (with Epic Feats & armour ?) ?

Add in a huge stack of HPs to be able to toy with the OOTS on top of the pyramid for a few rounds without any major trouble even when Haley backstabs him, and there you go.

Don't let his fleeing and defensive fighting deceive you, he can single handedly kick the OOTs' butt any time he wants just like Xykon would, and he will do so when he's done playing with both his sons.
I think the disconnect we have here is that you severely overestimate the power needed to achieve what Tarquin has actually achieved. You don't need to be Epic to be awesome. You don't need to be Epic to be staggeringly competent. You don't need to be Epic to have crazy amounts of resources and, if you're a fighter anyway, crazy amounts of feats. Most people in OOTSworld, as illustrated by Celia, Evisceratus, Solt, etc. have very few levels in NPC classes. PC classes are the exception. As Qarr points out, reaching double digits in a PC class is a rare and special thing.

Of the feats you attribute to Tarquin, only Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and probably some of the improved combat maneuvers feats are necessary to explain his actual, observed feats. The rest? That's all out of your head, buddy. Sure, if he's level 30 he would have a lot of feats unaccounted for, and maybe some of them would be on your list. But if he's level 17 and a fighter he'd still have a lot of feats unaccounted for. Either way, there's no real reason except rabid fanboyism to believe that any of those feats you mention, besides those he's demonstrated, have made the cut.

Coda: I agree with you that he's probably a fighter. We disagree on his probable level. I don't think Tarquin needs to be Epic to make his exploits believable. I further believe that making him Epic would diminish Epicness as a quality. As far as we know, the only Epic characters in the setting have been the Order of the Scribble, the precursors whose actions set up the main plot, and Xykon, the Big Bad whose actions drive the main plot. Making Tarquin, a side-plot antagonist, Epic decouples Epicness from relevance to the arc of the story.


We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.
This.

[ti'esar]

3) I was basing it off of the fact that everyone else matched the gender of their comparative opposite, so I assumed that since he had referred to in a way that clearly indicated that every member was a male now that Nale's focus was Banished for 24 hours, it made it seem likely that Vaarsuvius also matched the gender of the Drow there - male, unless the father was incorrect in his assumptions.

If we take this assumption as granted, then Durkon is female.

Edit: Which I see a few people have already pointed this out.


To each his own I guess, but after reading 100ish pages I got fed up with it. I couldn't draw even if my life depended on it, but I'm not trying to make a living out of it, but the guy(s) who draw LFG would really need to learn what perspectives mean...

It's just yet another badly drawn copy of several GOOD webcomics (OOTS, /gu..., Noddwick), set in a very WoW flavoured universe (you know: gaudy colours, huge weapons & armours, classes), some D&D (beholder), Everquest(LFG, hail jokes), Star Wars, a Song of Ice & Fire among others "very subtle, funny" references, filled with the most ridiculous heroic fantasy/ RPGs clichés you could find.

Move along, this is not the webcomics we're looking for.

While I have no intention of getting into an argument about the relative merits of webcomics (or any other works of fiction), I'm very confused as to how anything you say here invalidates the claim that "Looking For Group is a popular webcomic". I don't like it very much either, but that hardly equates to it being unpopular.

[lio45]

Elan is one of the twins separated at birth, whose father is the masked and armored warlord of the empress.

Adding this one other piece of data (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html) (last panel), I conclude that he is Leia.

#0760 to #0763 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) are a lot more evidence pointing to him being Luke. (Plus, the "I am your father" line was directed at him.)

Since Nale isn't Leia either, we can see that the "SW parallel" comparisons don't apply much further.

[Turgon9357]

Ah, the whip. The perfect weapon the warrior who has everything. Well, every feat at least, the way things are looking.

[Bulldog Psion]

Aren't warriors automatically proficient with ALL simple and martial weapons?

[KillingAScarab]

Aren't warriors automatically proficient with ALL simple and martial weapons?Fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, yes (as are the warrior and aristocrat NPC classes). If you're inquiring in regard to a whip, though, that is an exotic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), so most characters require an exotic weapon proficiency feat to be proficient with it. Appropriately enough for Tarquin as someone who thinks "bards are underpowered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)," bards are proficient with it. Even if Tarquin isn't proficient, he would be suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but could still attempt everything you can do with a whip (in the SRD, at least).

[Kish]

He's definitely not a Barbarian (not thick enough), nor Ranger, or Paladin (yeah right) so I guess Blackguard is also out of the way too.

This sentence belongs in the dictionary under "non-sequitur."

You also originally asserted Tarquin was an epic-level warrior, which is an NPC class, not fighter. And other than "he's been adventuring for a lot longer than the OotS," which is evidence although not very compelling evidence (how many levels do you figure Roy's gained in the past, oh, five years or so? Adventurers level in bursts, not steadily), there seems to be a marked lack of evidence in your post that he's epic-level.

I agree with you about the Looking for Group thing, though. (The statement "Looking for Group is a popular webcomic" is inaccurate if Looking for Group is not actually a webcomic; based on my observation of it I'm pretty sure it's a screed. Disguised as a webcomic. And it would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the meddling kids.)

[Forikroder]

Fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, yes (as are the warrior and aristocrat NPC classes). If you're inquiring in regard to a whip, though, that is an exotic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), so most characters require an exotic weapon proficiency feat to be proficient with it. Appropriately enough for Tarquin as someone who thinks "bards are underpowered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)," bards are proficient with it. Even if Tarquin isn't proficient, he would be suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but could still attempt everything you can do with a whip (in the SRD, at least).

i assume since hes carrying it around he has the feat

unless the whip is for the pterodn but it seems so well trained i find it unlikely

[Cynric]

Sure, people complain about the virgin heart, but it's the "fragrance" chemicals that will get you in the end.

[Deepbluediver]

I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?
looking for group is a popular webcomic

And the phrase itself, "Looking for Group" or just "LFG", mostly comes from MMORPG's, where people spam it in whenever they need help to run a dungeon, kill a particular moster, beg for gold, etc.

[ti'esar]

I agree with you about the Looking for Group thing, though. (The statement "Looking for Group is a popular webcomic" is inaccurate if Looking for Group is not actually a webcomic; based on my observation of it I'm pretty sure it's a screed. Disguised as a webcomic. And it would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the meddling kids.)

:smallconfused: A "screed" how? Like I said, I don't like it very much, but that wouldn't have been the first - or the second, or the fifth - criticism I would have made.

[Deepbluediver]

Love how Tarquin is still convinced Elan is very powerful and an asset to his team.

Father's pride, I guess. :smallbiggrin:
Ok, why is everyone down on Elan all of a sudden? Yes he's not quite the mental powerhouse V is and he lacks Roys commanding presence, but he's not exactly useless. He's beat Nale one-on-one and gone toe-to-toe with Tarquin, and he's getting better with both illusions and spell selection.
Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.

I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!


Tarquin is once again prepared for everything. I'm okay with that provided that he is defeated by the end of this book and actually makes one or more visible and clear mistakes.

Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.

[Sorator]

:smallconfused: A "screed" how? Like I said, I don't like it very much, but that wouldn't have been the first - or the second, or the fifth - criticism I would have made.
Agreed - mostly due to not knowing that term and being unable to find anything relevant via Google.



Ok, why is everyone down on Elan all of a sudden? Yes he's not quite the mental powerhouse V is and he lacks Roys commanding presence, but he's not exactly useless. He's beat Nale one-on-one and gone toe-to-toe with Tarquin, and he's getting better with both illusions and spell selection.
Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.

I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!
I think it's more that he doesn't have high intelligence (and since most people on this board presumably do, it's something we as a whole tend to disproportionately dislike) and doesn't have the redeeming factors of, say, Belkar or Thog (badassery and cute-innocence-while-dismembering-enemies). And, to be fair, he's been getting progressively effective since the start of the comic, as opposed to the others who tend to be effective (if only in combat) throughout the comic.

But I agree that some are discounting him too much.


Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.

I also agree with this - while Xykon & Team Evil is clearly still the BBEG, Tarquin has taken the secondary position in my mind. Even if the rest of the LG doesn't stick around, Tarquin is still a force to be reckoned with. (And I'd like to see him beaten by the OOTS fair and square.)

[BriarHobbit]

Another winner. I guess that the kobold really isn't a front line fighter/high level character in disguise, but he was high enough level to avoid dying from the Holy Word.

[loser0ll]

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.

Aww... crud. I was hoping that I had least found a strong inclination that it was most likely a Male. It'll still take a bit longer I guess. :smallfrown:

[Knaight]

Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.

You're assuming that nobody else is going to show up; it's high time for Xykon to do exactly that. Then there is the matter of where V and Malack are.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ok, why is everyone down on Elan all of a sudden?
People are down on Elan? I don't think that's the case in the sense that people have stopped liking him as a character. Rather, he was called out as not being as powerful and as much an asset to his team as Tarquin thinks, if at all. And, strictly speaking, he's not. He is, by his own admission, a halfway competent melee fighter, something that doesn't scream "powerful" by any means. And he's sometimes an asset to his team and sometimes a liability. In this arc alone he's been both an asset and a liability, getting Haley and V ambushed by bounty hunters but then getting the team the information they need to track down the Gate.


Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.

I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!
The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

You're arguing against a position no one has taken.


Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.
Ultimately, it comes down to believability. Is it more believable that Tarquin will screw up, or that the Order will get over that physical weakness, mental insecurity, and spiritual bankruptcy that you brought up in your last paragrph, not to mention the incompetence they have exhibited since strip 1 panel 1 when Durkon was going to let a goblin, of all things, "knock him on his ass"? Are the Order really meritorious enough that we can believe them succeeding on their own merits rather than the incompetence (or, depending on which antagonists we're talking about, untrusting relationship destined to end in betrayal) of their foes? Really, that's a matter of taste, but I can see why, to some, it is more believable that a character we've seen for one arc will act against their established type than that the ensemble of protagonists we've seen from the start of the comic will act against type. There is a substantial body of opinion on this board that believes it will be Redcloak who destroys Xykon, for instance, because they find the idea of the Order doing so just that unbelievable.

[Sweet_Goddess]

The Truth about Tarquin:

He is higher level then Durkon (I doubt he is epic. Epic is a major deal, Epic requires far more dedication and focus then Tarquin has had time for)

He is crazy prepared (He's Genre Savvy, this goes with the territory. Elan is generally considered a fool, but he was savvy enough to keep the girdle of masculinity/femininity stashed, knowing that if it was acquired with the knowledge of its effects before accidentally cursing a member of the party, then it was meant to be of great use at later time. So if the Genre Savvy Fool is prepared, why wouldn't his Magnificent Bastard Genre Savvy Evil Father be even more prepared)

He is Evil (Well, Duh, it isn't like we needed it spelled out in giant flaming letters... but we pretty much had that happen anyway... either that, or he really likes custard)

I'd put odds he does have the feat to use the whip.

I wouldn't put odds he has as many Axe focused feats, especially Greataxe, since he uses a Waraxe, not a Greataxe... Thog originally used a Greataxe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) (Which was also the one he was depicted as using in the Gladiator Posters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html)) while Tarquin uses a Waraxe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)/War Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), similar to the one Thog actually used when he fought (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) Roy.

As for the catching arrows, their are magic items that allow that, so why waste feats on that when we already know Tarquin loves to have loads of magic items to augment his capabilities (The guy has Glamoured Armor so he can change allegiances with a thought instead of multiple sets of armor, why would he waste valuable feats that he could use on things magic items have trouble emulating when a magic item can do it for him and he can use that feat on something like taking a unique weapon proficiency, making cross-class skills into class skills, or gaining loads of free attacks/actions)

Tarquin had the Axe in Storage, which implies it is not his go to weapon... storage is where you put something you don't use almost ever, not something you're specialized in. If he'd said, "I'll use my 3rd best Axe for this, don't want to obliterate them with a single slash" instead of "I may even get my axe out of storage for the occasion" I could believe he has a specialization with axes (Someone that specializes heavily might not keep multiple backups with them, but they'd have one close at hand unless some circumstance made that not possible, and they'd have a backup somewhere, and they definitely wouldn't have only the one of the item which they keep in storage except on rare occasions.)

If Tarquin was Epic level, with so much specialization, he'd have done far more damage with any strike... (Seriously, check what Thog used to do with his Greataxe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html), and try to argue that an Epic character with specializations with one would not be able to one shot most foes)

[Ron Miel]

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male. It doesn't mean anything — Hilgya, Durkon's original counterpart, was female.

Have we known that? Where was this shown?

[Messenger]

I don't get the sausage expression. :smallconfused:

[dtilque]

I don't get the sausage expression. :smallconfused:

He means it's going to be an all-male party until Sabine's banishment wears off.


Since we're doing these, I don't quite get why Elan says "Without an elaborate turnaround?"

[oppyu]

I don't get the sausage expression. :smallconfused:
Sausage party is a term that describes an all-male gathering.

[hakflem]

This sentence belongs in the dictionary under "non-sequitur."
Come again ?


You also originally asserted Tarquin was an epic-level warrior, which is an NPC class, not fighter. And other than "he's been adventuring for a lot longer than the OotS," which is evidence although not very compelling evidence (how many levels do you figure Roy's gained in the past, oh, five years or so? Adventurers level in bursts, not steadily), there seems to be a marked lack of evidence in your post that he's epic-level.
My bad about this typo, I really meant fighter.

On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate how far they've gone since the time they had to flee from a dozen goblins or a couple ogres. Trying to guess their lvl according to their number of attacks or highest level of spells cast can be done but won't be very accurate. Just like stating that according to my experience as a RPG player, when Roy came in possession of a +5 sword a very long time ago I will guess that he must have been lvl 13-14 at the very least at the time.

And as I pointed in a previous post, you need to be fairly powerful/ high level to be able to handle almost on your own a whole group of lvl 15-16ish PCs, and a couple levels over them won't be enough, which is why I wrote I thought Tarquin's epic level. Did yo usee how easily he passed saves against D spells (want to try & estimate the DC of that Will Save which as everyone knows is the forte of Fighters? and how he got rid of R and B ? got mildly annoyed by H's backstabs which must pack quite a punch, how easily he avoids/snatches H's arrows?

As Xykon taught V, "Power is Power". Do you think you've seen the real power of even a lvl17 fighter yet in any fight ? I don't think so, but we soon will when he gets bored of playing with Nale and the OOTS.

[hakflem]

"Rabid fanboying leading said rabid fanboy to make up evidence to fit a preconceived notion" would suit just fine. :smallsmile:


Shojo's sixty or so years on the throne, dealing with precisely the sort of problems you mention (opposition, monsters, PCs, and especially assassins) were worth fourteen levels of an NPC class.
Errmmmmm, I beg to differ, he pretended to be a senile old man talking to his cat to avoid being a target. Or am I thinking of someone else ?


Redcloak's four months of ruling a city and dealing with these threats, but also surviving an attack by an uber-wizard with an ECL so high that defeating the ABD didn't give her XP, got him one level in his preexisting PC class.
Dealing with the low lvl scum resistance will hardly get him any xp IMO, but on the other hand we've got the evidence that this secondary villain is already lvl17 since he can cast "Gate".

So you really think Tarquin who's a major villain in the story arc is only as powerful, or even less so since he's not a spell caster (or is he ?) as Xykon's lieutenant ? Good one but I really don't think so :)


Of the feats you attribute to Tarquin, only Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and probably some of the improved combat maneuvers feats are necessary to explain his actual, observed feats. The rest? That's all out of your head, buddy. Sure, if he's level 30 he would have a lot of feats unaccounted for, and maybe some of them would be on your list. But if he's level 17 and a fighter he'd still have a lot of feats unaccounted for. Either way, there's no real reason except rabid fanboyism to believe that any of those feats you mention, besides those he's demonstrated, have made the cut.
Wow, you do like that "rabid fanboyism" thing, don't you ?
If you're a meatshield, with high AC, high INT, the best defensive tools out there are Combat Expertise & Defending Weapon. YMMV.

Then again, please tell me what kind of feats a high lvl fighter might want aside from the PA/GCleave, weap focus, imp crit, weap spec/and the dodge series ?

Natural Spells ? Nimble Fingers ? Negotiator ? Spell focus ?

Yes I'm supposing T's an epic level fighter with lots of flashy Feats he'll use soon.

Do we need to send Rich emails untill he sends us the complete PC and NPCs sheets so you can shove it in our face screaming "haha, stupid rabid fanboy, I was right from the beginning ?".

[ti'esar]

Aww... crud. I was hoping that I had least found a strong inclination that it was most likely a Male. It'll still take a bit longer I guess. :smallfrown:

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[snikrept]

r.e. Tarquin being super prepared: Were he a PC, Tarquin would be *normally* prepared by the standards of many campaigns. Or even underprepared. All he brought for healing options is that jar of ointment that effectively does CLW, at his level of resources? And he didn't even bring it with him into the dungeon? And he has no backup damage weapon?

He's shown against a backdrop of other characters who are almost universally underprepared or underoptimized, because incompetence is funny and this is a humorous comic. So he looks really prepared by comparison.

[luc258]

Have we known that? Where was this shown?
Because female drows are completely unbalanced - in all the best ways.

[raymundo]

r.e. Tarquin being super prepared: Were he a PC, Tarquin would be *normally* prepared by the standards of many campaigns. Or even underprepared. All he brought for healing options is that jar of ointment that effectively does CLW, at his level of resources? And he didn't even bring it with him into the dungeon? And he has no backup damage weapon?

He's shown against a backdrop of other characters who are almost universally underprepared or underoptimized, because incompetence is funny and this is a humorous comic. So he looks really prepared by comparison.

Yep, people complain about Tarquin being prepared, while other people complain that the Order isn't as prepared.. Okay..

[ManuelSacha]

If we take this assumption as granted, then Durkon is female.

Are there still people arguing about this?

Look, guys, it's very simple: Vaarsuvius' gender is now officially "unidentified".
After a few strips, Rich Burlew realized that people couldn't tell what V was, and decided to catch up on the joke, spreading several conflicting hints, and letting the characters in the strip itself divide on the subject.

However, V was originally intended to be one or the other.
Rich Burlew never said which one, but a few hints indicate that V was meant to be male:

Early on, Rich Burlew was surprised to see appreciation comments on having a D&D party with two females;
You know how many of us say "s/he" referring to Vaarsuvius? Or how others just say "he" or "she" depending on what they think V is? Well, Rich Burlew usually goes with the politically correct "s/he" expression. Except once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081920&postcount=13), when he said "he". A slip, for sure, but quite a revealing one.
For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.



NOT THAT IT MATTERS, THOUGH.
Because an author has every right to ret-con what he sees fit (and in this case, since V's gender was never openly stated, it's a very mild ret-con), and what it was meant to be at the beginning has no effect on what it is now.

[Jay R]

Aww... crud. I was hoping that I had least found a strong inclination that it was most likely a Male. It'll still take a bit longer I guess. :smallfrown:

Given that the person you're getting your clues from has publicly stated it won't be revealed, yes, it will take quite a bit longer...

... unless you read ManuelSancha's excellent summation.

[Emperordaniel]

And he has no backup damage weapon?

He does have one or two daggers; there's the one he used in the clash with Elan, and he threw one (possibly the same one) at Nale the following day to pinpoint his location for Malack's Invisibility Purge. However, daggers don't really do a lot of damage in combat, and aren't good defensive weapons. :smallwink:

[Kish]

Come again ?

"He is not a barbarian, or ranger, or paladin, so he's not a blackguard."

The conclusion in no way derives from, or even relates to, the premise.


On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate
[...]

...Once again, not really a reply to what it's claimed to be. Your original argument was that Tarquin must be epic level because he'd been adventuring so much longer than the Order. I said that how long he'd been adventuring was not strong evidence, since adventurers level in bursts, not steadily. The Order has, indeed, gained a large number of levels in a relatively short amount of time. That's the point.


And as I pointed in a previous post, you need to be fairly powerful/ high level to be able to handle almost on your own a whole group of lvl 15-16ish PCs, and a couple levels over them won't be enough

So I take it you're a member of the "Miko was much higher level than the Order when she beat them up" club.

I'm not. Tarquin hasn't done anything that couldn't be done by a fighter the same level as Roy who focused on defensive rather than offensive feats, except possibly the Will saves, which are most likely explained by some manner of item (even if he's epic level, if he doesn't have any kind of item that boosts his Will saves in some way, he's making absolutely no effort to cover his Achilles heel, which would be odd).

(For the benefit of anyone reading this who remembers a certain old argument: Yes, I argued against someone's blithe assertion that Tarquin has a Ring of Mind Blank. And I'd do it again, because "the ring on Tarquin's not-committed-to-the-Ring-of-True-Sight finger is a not-from-D&D-books*, epic** item permanently enchanted with this eighth-level spell" is both an oddly specific claim, and an even more extreme one than simply "Tarquin is epic level." That's not the same as arguing that Tarquin has nothing that boosts his Will save in any way.)


As Xykon taught V, "Power is Power". Do you think you've seen the real power of even a lvl17 fighter yet in any fight ? I don't think so, but we soon will when he gets bored of playing with Nale and the OOTS.
So wait. Are you saying Tarquin is epic level, or that he's level 17?

*There's no Ring of Mind Blank in any D&D book. There are rules for creation of items, but...
**...the cost of a Ring of always-on Mind Blank comes out to an epic item, before we get to the whole question of who made it; I guess the wizard or sorcerer in Tarquin's adventuring party is epic whether Tarquin is or not, and only too eager to spend his or her XP on Tarquin.

[Smolder]

For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.


The gender-neutral form would be Vaarsuvium.

[lio45]

On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate how far they've gone since the time they had to flee from a dozen goblins or a couple ogres. Trying to guess their lvl according to their number of attacks or highest level of spells cast can be done but won't be very accurate. Just like stating that according to my experience as a RPG player, when Roy came in possession of a +5 sword a very long time ago I will guess that he must have been lvl 13-14 at the very least at the time.

I think you don't understand one fundamental trait of "OOTS leveling": NPCs don't need to actually level up. They can be paradropped in front of the PCs any time and when that happens, they'll magically be at the "right" level, appropriate for the story and challenge.

So, regardless of what we do or do not know about Tarquin's background, he's clearly a fair bit higher level than the Order. I had called that before we knew Durkon's Holy Word hadn't affected him -- that piece of confirming evidence wasn't even needed to know it, because it's so obvious that it (should normally) go without saying: when the PCs meet a new big bad villain, the said big bad villain is more powerful than them, no matter how many years of adventuring he's got under his belt.

[AgentofHellfire]

just lookat, say, Malack telling Tarquin to stop messing around and fight seriously

besides even assuming that that is tarquins main fighting style it still doesnt change that without his axe hes completely reliant on the rest of his party to do the damage, with only a whip we wont take someone down in a million years



Without the Axe, yes, he can't do things like Power Attack and Cleave very well.

He could pretty easily, however, disarm someone with a weapon that can, and then just use that. So...

[lio45]

Are there still people arguing about this?

Look, guys, it's very simple: Vaarsuvius' gender is now officially "unidentified".
After a few strips, Rich Burlew realized that people couldn't tell what V was, and decided to catch up on the joke, spreading several conflicting hints, and letting the characters in the strip itself divide on the subject.

However, V was originally intended to be one or the other.
Rich Burlew never said which one, but a few hints indicate that V was meant to be male:

Early on, Rich Burlew was surprised to see appreciation comments on having a D&D party with two females;
You know how many of us say "s/he" referring to Vaarsuvius? Or how others just say "he" or "she" depending on what they think V is? Well, Rich Burlew usually goes with the politically correct "s/he" expression. Except once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081920&postcount=13), when he said "he". A slip, for sure, but quite a revealing one.
For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.



NOT THAT IT MATTERS, THOUGH.
Because an author has every right to ret-con what he sees fit (and in this case, since V's gender was never openly stated, it's a very mild ret-con), and what it was meant to be at the beginning has no effect on what it is now.

Thanks for summing this up!

You actually forgot a couple other elements that are also pointing to V having been created male (for example, off the top of my head, there's RawBearNYC's opinion on the ways Rich invariably made male/female bodies different in his very early stick figure style, and from memory there's also another thing Rich said somewhere in 2003 which is quite revealing when you read between the lines), but getting into the details of these would belong in the (currently dormant, as no other evidence ever surfaces as the years pass) V's gender discussion thread.

[AutomatedTeller]

It's hard to see Tarquin as 17th or so, if we assume that the OOTS is 13-15 or so. He talks about them as mid-level and about how things were back when he was their level. that could just be Tarquin, but he seems to tolerate them the way that Xykon does, as a nuisance as opposed to a threat. I'd guess he's significantly more powerful than any OOTS character.

As for Elan - there's a very good reason why he would be bad in this fight, which is that his competence is tied to his puns. I'm guessing that if the opponent cannot hear the pun, he is no longer oddly effective Elan, but just a guy singing a song Elan.

[KillingAScarab]

i assume since hes carrying it around he has the feat

unless the whip is for the pterodn but it seems so well trained i find it unlikelyTarquin is the ruler of an empire built upon slavery. Even if he isn't training dinosaurs, in the past there might have been plenty of humans to use it upon without trying to fight them. He has slavedrivers to do that for him now, when they aren't on strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html).

[Kish]

I would be surprised if Tarquin didn't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip.

('Course, Forikroder, if he does that's evidence against Tarquin having a ton of feats around using a greataxe, and flat-out refutation of the idea that Tarquin has no feats that are about using another weapon.)

[Snails]

Tarquin could be as low as level 15-16 or as high as Epic. More likely somewhere in between.

I have two quibbles with Tarquin being Epic level:
(1) It is impressive to toy with a group of opposing characters just 2 or 3 levels lower than you, because it can easily go wrong. If Tarquin is 21st+ level, it is just toying with outright inferiors. That is not impressive at all. It is just a DM Pet peeing on the PCs with impunity (yet again).

(2) I have suspension of disbelief difficulties with Epic NPCs lying around. The OotsVerse doesn't feel (to me) like a world where there are many challenges around to actually push past the mid-teens. IMHO, of course.

Obviously there is some significant degree of wiggle room on both points. But "wow, Tarquin must be Epic" is not really a positive point for how I would rate Tarquin, both as a character and the quality of writing for his character.

And the same points apply to Xykon, albeit to a much lesser degree. "Wow, Xykon is probably 27th level" makes me first and foremost think how amazingly incompetent he is, not how impressive or interesting his is.

[Krim]

If Malack is in the room with all the corpses, my first guess would be that he's going to make more undead, but, what would he do with more undead? Maybe we will get to find out what else his staff does soon.

Basically? Have them one-shotted. But more to the point, Malack is not really into necromancy, and not even into fighting the OOTS. Flee or Talk are his options.

[Kish]

It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.

[Snails]

Basically? Have them one-shotted. But more to the point, Malack is not really into necromancy, and not even into fighting the OOTS. Flee or Talk are his options.

Malack holds his cards close to his chest, something to be commended in a Maybe Major Villain. He is fun to speculate about (and I my own fun and outlandish speculations about Malack, which I will not go into here), but really we do not know what makes Malack tick yet.

I look forward to seeing him play his cards on the table.

[Smolder]

Tarquin could be as low as level 15-16 or as high as Epic. More likely somewhere in between.


Agreed. A more constructive discussion would be on Tarquins maximum level. I think we can safely conclude Tarquin's level < Xykon's. I think there is a lot of evidence that Tarquin's level >= Durkon's level + [1d4 + 1], somewhere in that range. I don't see any justification for going much higher.

[Krim]

Isn't it very established by now that Tarquin favours pre-marital sex? He certainly didn't mind it with the Captain of the Free City of Doom. It seems almost certain that the oinment is not the reason for all his wives dying, after all, remember we all thought he had killed Penelope, and look who was actually the killer :P.

[Snails]

It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.

On the nose.

To add insult to injury, the objectionable part is an inactive ingredient, that is rifting on a classic D&D non-evil magic item. It could have been heart of a pig. Or olive oil. It so happens that Tarquin simply likes it better when it includes heart of a virgin.

[Mantine]

Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.

Because Xykon is near-omnipotent following the plot, while Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is due to the Plot.

[Water_Bear]

Tarquin doesn't really seem unusually prepared, or particularly 'broken' in terms of what he can do.

I would expect a high-level Factotem with roughly infinite WBL, in a universe where rolled stats can and do produce anti-MAD monsters like Miko, to be more than capable of doing everything he has*. By the same token, his preparations are general precautions rather than Batman-style "aha, but I secretly fed you paralyzing poison in your hotel chocolates, which are activated by the adrenaline of our fight**" shenanigans.

Personally though, I still like Nale much much more than Tarquin. He is funny, actually pretty successful as antagonists go, has connections to every major player in the plot, and the Nale/Sabine relationship is interesting. If Nale doesn't kill Tarquin and take back the "recurring secondary villain" mantle by the end of this arc I would be very surprised.

*Heck, with the right items even a high-Int Fighter could pull off most of his tricks; slap some Gloves of Arrow Snatching, a used-up Luck Blade or three, the item which gives Mettle + a Ring of Evasion, standard Save and AC boosting items, even something like a Tome of Clear Thought +5 if he needs extra skill points/languages known.
**Actually a real Batman plan, though it was **** Grayson instead of Bruce himself.

-Edit-
Seriously? THAT got auto-censored?

[Sorator]

It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.

Very good observation!

[Gift Jeraff]

Personally though, I still like Nale much much more than Tarquin. He is funny, actually pretty successful as antagonists go, has connections to every major player in the plot, and the Nale/Sabine relationship is interesting. If Nale doesn't kill Tarquin and take back the "recurring secondary villain" mantle by the end of this arc I would be very surprised.

These are my thoughts as well.

For some reason, I see Nale teleporting and leaving Tarquin by himself in a collapsing pyramid, near an exploding Gate, and/or near a bored Xykon.

[AgentofHellfire]

Because Xykon is near-omnipotent following the plot, while Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is due to the Plot.

Honestly, hisknowing Drow sign language was the only really questionable thing he did, and it's at least conceivable that a really, really experienced adventurer such as himself would take the time to learn a silent form of communication, as he'd know that there would be at lesat some situations where verbal communciation would be impossible.

Hell, I thought of this in a totally unrelated situation, so...

[MartectX]

Hell, I thought of this in a totally unrelated situation, so...
You or a character of yours? :smallconfused:

[AgentofHellfire]

You or a character of yours? :smallconfused:


Me, for a character of mine. I ultimately discarded the idea because practically no one else knows Drow Sign Language, so the communication wouldn't be effective, but Tarquin's been in a position to train armies. He could easily have taught some of his elite goons the language, and thus found a use for it.

[AgentofHellfire]

These are my thoughts as well.

For some reason, I see Nale teleporting and leaving Tarquin by himself in a collapsing pyramid, near an exploding Gate, and/or near a bored Xykon.

...with Zzt'dri, the one who can teleport, at least possibly warming to Tarquin?

Debatable...

[zimmerwald1915]

Nale, by virtue of knowing Dimension Door, can teleport. Granted, he can only go a few hundred feet at a time, but he's a sorcerer. He can do it again. And again. And again. You see the pattern.

Also, why are people assuming Z's going to consciously betray Nale for Tarquin? He's stayed loyal to Nale for over eight hundred strips, and has been working behind Tarquin's back, on Nale's behalf, for a significant part of that time. A small kindness by Tarquin is enough to persude him otherwise? Why? Because Tarquin has magical friendship powers? Now, I like MLP as much as the next guy, but this story is not that one.

[Bundin]

You're assuming that nobody else is going to show up; it's high time for Xykon to do exactly that. Then there is the matter of where V and Malack are.
Even if Xykon now gets the jump on Tarquin and co, the pace has been slowed considerably. I am indeed looking forward to seeing Malack again, as I posted before, but the LG getting away to regroup has been done before. More than once. As someone else commented in this thread, it feels like a children's show where the villain always miraculously escapes so he'll be around for the the next episode.

I'd love to see some definite progress, not yet another escape + replace the mooks.Even the loss of Sabine is very much temporary (although the time she's forcibly gone can be more than enough for a decent confrontation.

But hey, it's not my story, I definitely can't do better. But this is how I feel about this plot point :)

[Ron Miel]

We've known for a long time that Zz'd'tri is unambiguously male.
Have we known that? Where was this shown?
Because female drows are completely unbalanced - in all the best ways.

That may be true in other strips. Is that true in OOTS? Where is the unambiguously female drow in the strip?

Lirian is the only elf in the strip with an obvious gender, as far as I know.

[Gift Jeraff]

That may be true in other strips. Is that true in OOTS? Where is the unambiguously female drow in the strip?

Lirian is the only elf in the strip with an obvious gender, as far as I know.

This drow: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html

Drow are traditionally matriarchal, so them being less gender ambiguous makes sense.

[Yendor]

This drow: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html

Drow are traditionally matriarchal, so them being less gender ambiguous makes sense.

Here's another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html).

[KillingAScarab]

This drow: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html


Here's another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html).


Drow are traditionally matriarchal, so them being less gender ambiguous makes sense.All the more reason for those to be male drow in drag, scheming to usurp power. :smallwink: Nah, there are two male drow featured in On the Origins of the PCs. Both have boxy torsos and they are either wearing the trappings of wizards or come with the standard-issue scimitars. Zz'dtri does both. There was also at least one female elf in OOotPC, and a number of them in Start of Darkness, however none of those were Drow.

Some more clues for Ron Miel, which I don't think have been brought up. First, the Linear Guild recruited Pompey as Vaarsuvius' evil opposite; Pompey had a clearly-established gender identity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html). Also, Qarr is openly confused (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html) about V's gender, yet confident in using male pronouns for Zz'dtri. Z is too... terse to really establish that, but I think Qarr and Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) is enough. I also found it very funny when Vaarsuvius used Haley's catchphrase (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) - guess which part was the error.

[hakflem]

I think you don't understand one fundamental trait of "OOTS leveling": NPCs don't need to actually level up. They can be paradropped in front of the PCs any time and when that happens, they'll magically be at the "right" level, appropriate for the story and challenge.

So, regardless of what we do or do not know about Tarquin's background, he's clearly a fair bit higher level than the Order. I had called that before we knew Durkon's Holy Word hadn't affected him -- that piece of confirming evidence wasn't even needed to know it, because it's so obvious that it (should normally) go without saying: when the PCs meet a new big bad villain, the said big bad villain is more powerful than them, no matter how many years of adventuring he's got under his belt.

I agree with you as far as one shot vilains are concerned, but that would be silly for recurent ones like Red Cloak for exemple. You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions.

[Kish]

I agree with you as far as one shot vilains are concerned, but that would be silly for recurent ones like Red Cloak for exemple. You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions.
Really?

So you had questions when Nale went from Expeditious Retreat to Suggestion? Or when Redcloak summoned a fiendish elephant?

[Jay R]

As for Elan - there's a very good reason why he would be bad in this fight, which is that his competence is tied to his puns. I'm guessing that if the opponent cannot hear the pun, he is no longer oddly effective Elan, but just a guy singing a song Elan.

Excellent observation.

-----------------

By the way, I am reminded that Xykon can't remember Roy's name. Is there any chance that if he sees a party of adventurers a few hundred feet from the pyramid, he will assume it's that group that's been trying to pester them? Redcloak might "recognize" Nale as Elan, and they've just been conveniently separated from the obvious differences - the demon, the succubus, and the lizard cleric of death.

[hakflem]

"He is not a barbarian, or ranger, or paladin, so he's not a blackguard."

The conclusion in no way derives from, or even relates to, the premise.

Alright, I may not have been clear enough in my previous post. I meant that since most Blackguards seem to be former Paladins (sharing the same important stats like CHA and getting huge benefits from trading their ex PAL levels in) I assumed that Tarquin was not likely to be a Black Guard.


...Once again, not really a reply to what it's claimed to be. Your original argument was that Tarquin must be epic level because he'd been adventuring so much longer than the Order. I said that how long he'd been adventuring was not strong evidence, since adventurers level in bursts, not steadily. The Order has, indeed, gained a large number of levels in a relatively short amount of time. That's the point.

I've played RPGs for at least 15 years and I cannot say I've seen that burst progression you mention. With a good, coherent DM not giving his PC group silly (too hard/ too easy) challenges, I've always seen steady leveling (and I've played a lot of different games, thank you very much, before you argue that not every game XP system works the same) be it with D&D, Warhammer FRP, Star Wars, Rolemaster, CoChtulhu, Stormbringer, Reve de Dragons, Empires & Dynasties, etc.



So I take it you're a member of the "Miko was much higher level than the Order when she beat them up" club.

Nope, sorry to burst your bubble but I'm with you on this one. I assume she's a member of the "broken " Monk Class. Add some crazy good paladin features and I'd say you don't need a higher level Mikko to be much more efficient than the OOTS at their respective level.


(For the benefit of anyone reading this who remembers a certain old argument: Yes, I argued against someone's blithe assertion that Tarquin has a Ring of Mind Blank. And I'd do it again, because "the ring on Tarquin's not-committed-to-the-Ring-of-True-Sight finger is a not-from-D&D-books*, epic** item permanently enchanted with this eighth-level spell" is both an oddly specific claim, and an even more extreme one than simply "Tarquin is epic level." That's not the same as arguing that Tarquin has nothing that boosts his Will save in any way.)
Cloak of Protection +5 FTW
Doesn't T mention a Ring of Regeneration (my crazy bet would be he sports a Ring of Rapid Healing) in a conversation with Elan ?


So wait. Are you saying Tarquin is epic level, or that he's level 17?
Does my english suck so much that you seem to misread half of what I wrote ?
I was just stating that even in the very unlikely case that T was only a 17th fighter we hadn't seen half of his potential.

[hakflem]

Really?

So you had questions when Nale went from Expeditious Retreat to Suggestion? Or when Redcloak summoned a fiendish elephant?
Ooooooh, my turn to nitpick :)

Why do you assume he didn't have both spells in the first place ?

[Kish]

Alright, I may not have been clear enough in my previous post. I meant that since most Blackguards seem to be former Paladins (sharing the same important stats like CHA

Let's unpack this assumption a bit.

Set aside, for the moment, the argument that having levels in a class which shares stat dependencies with another class means you must necessarily have levels in that other class as well, so that every fighter is also a barbarian, every rogue also a ranger, every sorcerer also a bard.

Do you think Tarquin has poor Wisdom and Charisma?

If you don't, "Blackguards use Wisdom and Charisma" makes an odd argument that he would not be one, does it not?


and getting huge benefits from trading their ex PAL levels in)

This is a flat-out misunderstanding of the rules. An annoyingly common misunderstanding...but a misunderstanding nonetheless.

A blackguard who is an ex-paladin 9 (or below), or who has 10 levels of ex-paladin but chooses not to trade in all of them, or trades in some levels of ex-paladin but still has some left over, gets some trifling benefits for those nine (or however many) otherwise-useless trailing levels of ex-paladin. Such a blackguard is nowhere near as powerful as an otherwise-identical blackguard who is a fighter 9 instead.

A blackguard who has 10 or more levels of ex-paladin can trade those levels in for blackguard levels, one for one. If s/he does so, that is all s/he gets from them. A blackguard 5 who traded in five levels of ex-paladin for those five blackguard levels is in no way more powerful than a blackguard 5 who gained those five levels with XP.

Neither narratively, nor in terms of power, is being an ex-paladin more logical for a blackguard than being a fighter or fighter/rogue. "Tarquin was never a paladin" is a logical belief. "Therefore Tarquin has no blackguard levels" is not.


I've played RPGs for at least 15 years and I cannot say I've seen that burst progression you mention.

Really?

Take the character you've played who covered the most levels over the course of play. Might be a character who started at level 1 and leveled to 20, or a character who started at level 10 and leveled to 15, or a character who started at level 2 and leveled to 9, I don't know what characters you've played. But, for the one who covered the most levels over the course of play, how many years did that take? That is--assuming my first example above--how old was the character at level 1, and how old was the character at level 20? (If there were time-skips in the campaign, please mention them.)

In any case, in OotS, Roy has gone from level 7-9 to around level 16 since the comic started. How many years of in-comic time would you say have passed?


With a good, coherent DM not giving his PC group silly (too hard/ too easy) challenges, I've always seen steady leveling

You're not getting this. At least in OotS, the PCs are high level at this point, the spellcasters casting seventh and eighth-level spells. None of the human PCs is over the age of 30. That is a lot of leveling in a burst relative to their total lifespan. "I've always seen steady leveling over the course of a game" doesn't really relate to what I'm saying, because the "bursts" I'm talking about are "the course of a game."


Nope, sorry to burst your bubble but I'm with you on this one. I assume she's a member of the "broken " Monk Class. Add some crazy good paladin features and I'd say you don't need a higher level Mikko to be much more efficient than the OOTS at their respective level.

You're missing the point. You asserted that...let me find the words..."A couple levels over them won't be enough," for Tarquin being able to fight the entire Order.

Why is that the case for Tarquin but not Miko?


Doesn't T mention a Ring of Regeneration (my crazy bet would be he sports a Ring of Rapid Healing) in a conversation with Elan ?

Yes.


Ooooooh, my turn to nitpick :)

Why do you assume he didn't have both spells in the first place ?
No such assumption necessary. You said, "You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions." (Bolding mine.)

That is exactly what Nale did. First-level spell, then, the next time we saw him cast a spell, fourth-level spell. No way around it; Rich did exactly what you said he couldn't do. And, in fact, he does it all the time; having a character cast a new higher-level spell is his most common way of heralding, "This character is now high enough level to cast this spell."

[Forikroder]

Excellent observation.

-----------------

By the way, I am reminded that Xykon can't remember Roy's name. Is there any chance that if he sees a party of adventurers a few hundred feet from the pyramid, he will assume it's that group that's been trying to pester them? Redcloak might "recognize" Nale as Elan, and they've just been conveniently separated from the obvious differences - the demon, the succubus, and the lizard cleric of death.

pretty sure Xykon can tell the difference between an aging white man with a full head of hair and a youthful black man whos bald

[Emperordaniel]

pretty sure Xykon can tell the difference between an aging white man with a full head of hair and a youthful black man whos bald

Tarquin's wearing a helmet.

[rgrekejin]

By the way, I am reminded that Xykon can't remember Roy's name. Is there any chance that if he sees a party of adventurers a few hundred feet from the pyramid, he will assume it's that group that's been trying to pester them? Redcloak might "recognize" Nale as Elan, and they've just been conveniently separated from the obvious differences - the demon, the succubus, and the lizard cleric of death.

You know... that's a decent point. Tarquin is even dressed in predominantly purple armor now, same as Roy. The fact that none of the Order could tell he wasn't Thog would imply that his armor leaves none of his flesh visible, so it is kind of conceivable that someone could confuse him for Roy.

...although his armor is only purple because of a magical illusion. As Xykon and Redcloak are heading in to the stronghold of a known illusionist, it seems pretty unlikely that they wouldn't have the spells necessary to see through it constantly on.


I've played RPGs for at least 15 years and I cannot say I've seen that burst progression you mention. With a good, coherent DM not giving his PC group silly (too hard/ too easy) challenges, I've always seen steady leveling (and I've played a lot of different games, thank you very much, before you argue that not every game XP system works the same) be it with D&D, Warhammer FRP, Star Wars, Rolemaster, CoChtulhu, Stormbringer, Reve de Dragons, Empires & Dynasties, etc.

V is at least a hundred years old. I know a specific age is given in one of the books, but I don't have my copies at hand right now, so let's assume she is 100, which I know is probably an underestimation. According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, V started the comic at level 8. V is now a minimum of level 15, as a result of the events taking place in the comic. How long have those events taken? A year? Two? V gained 8 levels in the previous 100 years of her existence, and 7 over the course of the last 2. V had been gaining levels at a rate of .08 levels per year for the last 100 years, and is now gaining levels at a rate of 3.5 levels per year. I, for one, would consider that a tremendous burst of leveling.


Nope, sorry to burst your bubble but I'm with you on this one. I assume she's a member of the "broken " Monk Class. Add some crazy good paladin features and I'd say you don't need a higher level Mikko to be much more efficient than the OOTS at their respective level.

...you know that when people say the Monk is broken, they mean the bad kind of broken, not the good kind of broken, right?

Edit: Ninja'd. Almost completely.

[KillingAScarab]

As for Elan - there's a very good reason why he would be bad in this fight, which is that his competence is tied to his puns. I'm guessing that if the opponent cannot hear the pun, he is no longer oddly effective Elan, but just a guy singing a song Elan.While it is true that Elan's opponent must be able to hear his pun to be an effective dashing swordsman, Roy benched Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html) before he even knew Durkon wanted to cast holy word and deafen the Linear Guild.

[Palthera]

No such assumption necessary. You said, "You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions." (Bolding mine.)

That is exactly what Nale did. First-level spell, then, the next time we saw him cast a spell, fourth-level spell. No way around it; Rich did exactly what you said he couldn't do. And, in fact, he does it all the time; having a character cast a new higher-level spell is his most common way of heralding, "This character is now high enough level to cast this spell."

Suggestion is only third level. And there isn't really an equivalent 2nd ot 3rd level spell that would have served as well as an escape with the +12 to jump checks. He was probably pretty close to casting 3rd level spells at that first meeting and then went off for a while murdering and stuff.

So I didn't find anything like a jump there.

[Sorator]

You know... that's a decent point. Tarquin is even dressed in predominantly purple armor now, same as Roy. The fact that none of the Order could tell he wasn't Thog would imply that his armor leaves none of his flesh visible, so it is kind of conceivable that someone could confuse him for Roy.

...although his armor is only purple because of a magical illusion. As Xykon and Redcloak are heading in to the stronghold of a known illusionist, it seems pretty unlikely that they wouldn't have the spells necessary to see through it constantly on.

Ooh, now here's an interesting thought. (Though to be fair, I'd call Roy's current armor blue, not purple, but they are similar. *shrug*)

I doubt Xykon would give much thought to exactly who he was fighting, anyway - they're probably gonna get in the way regardless, so why not kill them even if they aren't exactly who he thinks they are? Wouldn't surprise me if Redcloak noticed the differences and rushed to tell Xykon, who then responded with exactly that thought and continued meteor swarming.