Gestalt E6 Arcane Genius help

[Ammutseba]

I'm trying to build a particular concept I've got in mind. It's not really for anything but to find out if it can be done. This concept is a young wizard attending one of those "magic schools" who will be capable of casting spells beyond the normal limits.

At level 6, I'd like her to be able to cast 5th level spells, but I just can't figure out how to do it. Versatile Spellcaster seemed like an obvious choice, but it turns out that spending two spell slots to cast a spell of a level higher is not the same as spending two spell slots to gain a spell slot of a level higher. It can't be used to recombine slots into increasingly powerful spells because it doesn't create slots, it just casts a spell.

Heighten spell doesn't seem like it can do it, either, because just being able to make a spell into level 4 doesn't mean you also gain a 4th level spell slot to use it; you'd have to already have such a slot.

Since this concept character goes to a "magic school," one of her classes must be some form of wizard. I will probably opt for a specialist with 5 levels, and dip into something else for 1 level. For her other class, I'm thinking of going with dread necro 6. I know this choice creates a casting stat disparity, but I'm alright with that because I really like necromancy effects, unlimited self-healing is boss, and the class makes choosing necromancy as a barred school an okay thing to do (especially from a fluff standpoint).

So now I'm back to the part where I'm stuck. How do I cast 5th level spells with her?

Edit: Oh hey. I should probably toss this in here, too. I'll be snagging a bloodline feat for the bonus spells known so that I can make full use of the advanced learning feature. Can anyone suggest a few spells that should be considered with it?

[HunterOfJello]

A White Dragonspawn Kobold who has taken the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage feat can cast spells as a sorcerer 2 levels higher than they are. That would give you 4th level spells. Then again, this assumes LA buyoff and the fact that your DM would let you use a template like White Dragonspawn.

After that you could use Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster, but that would only allow you to cast 4th level spells that would count as a 5th level spells. It wouldn't let you learn any 5th level spells.

I'm not even going to bring up Loredrake, because it doesn't work with White Dragonspawn, so it wouldn't get you enough levels to get 5ths, just more 4ths.
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Ummmmm.....

I can't think of any real arcane ways to doing that other than going the Pun-Pun route.

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If you wanted to get 6th level Divine Spells, then you could gain access to them as an Archivist by gaining them from other spellcasting classes with different spell progression lists. For instance, Command Plants is a 3rd level spell for Rangers, but a 4th level spell for Druids. This does, of course, assume that there are higher level spellcasters in the world to learn spells from even though your party is limited to level 6.

[Gnorman]

It's E6. Fifth level spells don't exist.

And shouldn't, honestly - the whole point of the system is to avoid the overpowering nature of those spells. Why re-open Pandora's box?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard), Spontaneous Divination ACF, Versatile Spellcaster. With any of Sanctum Spell or Improved Sigil: Krau or Earth Spell you can spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level spell that counts as a 5th level spell. You could skip that second part since it's E6, just spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast your 4th level Domain Wizard spell, and get the E6 capstone feat Expanded Casting: "You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast." That will give you a 4th level spell slot, and with Int 18+ you'll get a bonus slot and can spend your two 4th level spell slots to cast your 5th level Domain Wizard spell. Gain Expanded Casting again for a 5th level spell slot, Int 20+ gives you a bonus slot, etc. all the way to 9th level spells. If your Int isn't high enough for a bonus slot you'll need Expanded Casting twice for that level, but it still works. If you use the Elf Generalist 1 substitution level you won't even need a bonus spell from a high ability score for any of those spell levels.

[Ammutseba]

It's E6. Fifth level spells don't exist.

And shouldn't, honestly - the whole point of the system is to avoid the overpowering nature of those spells. Why re-open Pandora's box?

You and I clearly have different definitions of what "shouldn't exist" means. I always thought it was a challenge.


Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard), Spontaneous Divination ACF, Versatile Spellcaster. With any of Sanctum Spell or Improved Sigil: Krau or Earth Spell you can spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level spell that counts as a 5th level spell. You could skip that second part since it's E6, just spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast your 4th level Domain Wizard spell, and get the E6 capstone feat Expanded Casting: "You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast." That will give you a 4th level spell slot, and with Int 18+ you'll get a bonus slot and can spend your two 4th level spell slots to cast your 5th level Domain Wizard spell. Gain Expanded Casting again for a 5th level spell slot, Int 20+ gives you a bonus slot, etc. all the way to 9th level spells. If your Int isn't high enough for a bonus slot you'll need Expanded Casting twice for that level, but it still works. If you use the Elf Generalist 1 substitution level you won't even need a bonus spell from a high ability score for any of those spell levels.

Perfect, Furiou. I knew I kept going back to look at those things for a reason. I just wasn't putting the pieces together, but you did it easily. :smallbiggrin: And thank you!

On that advanced learning, then. The bloodline feat makes it capable of adding in any necromancy spell to my list. Is Kelgore's Grave Mist my #1 option, or would something else be better?

[Gnorman]

You and I clearly have different definitions of what "shouldn't exist" means. I always thought it was a challenge.

A challenge, sure, I'll grant you that. But an intentional one? I seriously doubt it.

It just seems odd to ask "How do I break a system that was devised to intentionally limit the exact thing I want to break it for?," except as a thought exercise.

EDIT: Which it obviously is. Never mind, carry on, pay no attention to me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On that advanced learning, then. The bloodline feat makes it capable of adding in any necromancy spell to my list. Is Kelgore's Grave Mist my #1 option, or would something else be better?

With Versatile Spellcaster you should be able to pick a 3rd level spell for your Advanced Learning, which means Shivering Touch.

Don't forget about using Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) to mimic spells of any level, particularly for item creation. You could also go Necropolitan and use Incantations to Spellstitch yourself with 5th and 6th level spells, but it would take Wis 19. Be sure to do that with a race that can take Magic in the Blood to use those 3/day.

[Ammutseba]

With Versatile Spellcaster you should be able to pick a 3rd level spell for your Advanced Learning, which means Shivering Touch.

Don't forget about using Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) to mimic spells of any level, particularly for item creation. You could also go Necropolitan and use Incantations to Spellstitch yourself with 5th and 6th level spells, but it would take Wis 19. Be sure to do that with a race that can take Magic in the Blood to use those 3/day.

With any of the bloodline feats, I can choose a spell of up to 9th level. Is Shivering Touch still the way to go?

Edit: Delay Death, for instance. Seems like an immediate action to preserve your own life might be pretty cool. But then again, what seems cool to me might actually be pretty bad. That's why I have to ask.

Second Edit: Am... am I reading this right?


Power in the Blood [Bloodline]
Prerequisites: Any bloodline feat, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Benefit: You may cast one additional spell per day, over and above your allotment for the class that qualified you for your base bloodline feat. The additional spell must be one granted by that feat.

That's all it says. This might be the 4 in the morning talking, but I'm pretty sure that says I'm allowed to cast a single spell from the bloodline spells provided, beyond what my class gives me. As in... it doesn't even matter that I shouldn't be able to cast spells of that level. Just, "Oh hey. I haven't done this yet today. Power Word Kill." That seems like it should be wrong...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With any of the bloodline feats, I can choose a spell of up to 9th level. Is Shivering Touch still the way to go?

Edit: Delay Death, for instance. Seems like an immediate action to preserve your own life might be pretty cool. But then again, what seems cool to me might actually be pretty bad. That's why I have to ask.

You get Advanced Learning at 4th level, but you won't be casting those higher level spells until after you hit 6th level. That means with Versatile Spellcaster and knowledge of one 3rd level spell at 4th level, you'll be able to get a 3rd level spell via Advanced Learning.



Power in the Blood [Bloodline]
Prerequisites: Any bloodline feat, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Benefit: You may cast one additional spell per day, over and above your allotment for the class that qualified you for your base bloodline feat. The additional spell must be one granted by that feat.

That's all it says. This might be the 4 in the morning talking, but I'm pretty sure that says I'm allowed to cast a single spell from the bloodline spells provided, beyond what my class gives me. As in... it doesn't even matter that I shouldn't be able to cast spells of that level. Just, "Oh hey. I haven't done this yet today. Power Word Kill." That seems like it should be wrong...

You don't know a Bloodline spell of a given level until you're able to cast it. That will basically give you one additional spell per day of up to the highest level you can cast. It's not an actual spell slot, or if it is then it's not of a specific level, it's just the ability to cast one spell from a set list up to the highest level spells you can cast. You can't use it to power Versatile Spellcaster, so I don't think it really adds anything to the build apart from an additional casting of the highest spell level you've chained access to.

[Ammutseba]

You don't know a Bloodline spell of a given level until you're able to cast it.

I've just read through everything I can find about bloodlines in Dragons 311, 325 and 335, but I can't find a part that says what you're saying. They all say that "Each base feat in this category grants a character the bloodline of a particular kind of creature, plus a specific set of arcane spells known." As far as I can see, though, there's nothing here to indicate that you have to be able to cast a spell before you're allowed to know it. Is that information taken from another source in the game?

[Axier]

I tend to like the ideas people come up with to get better spellcasting in E6, because at the end of the day, you are usually dumping so many feats into your spellcasting, it doesn't make you superbly OP in the end, because you have to work at it a lot while the rest of you isn't getting much better.

Also, talk to your DM, because if you can get higher level spell slots, you could technically "develop" more spells if you are a wizard, because I know there is a place somewhere in one of the books that tells you how you can "develop" (More accurately learn) new spells through arcane experimentation. Remember to tell your DM that this method requires an investment of both time and money, and he has full arbitration over it for the most part. It is an interesting way to avoid the cheese that is starting to ooze aroud in this thread should you start having to dodge books.

If that doesn't work, there are Incantations as noted by Biffoniacus_Furiou, which provide a flavorful, if risky way to mimic spells. It doesn't help in combat much, but you could mimic long term buffs as incantations and make buffing rituals!

[ahenobarbi]

Make 5th level spells 4th level spells by using Sanctum Spell and cast them using Versatile Spell Caster?

[Ammutseba]

I tend to like the ideas people come up with to get better spellcasting in E6, because at the end of the day, you are usually dumping so many feats into your spellcasting, it doesn't make you superbly OP in the end, because you have to work at it a lot while the rest of you isn't getting much better.

I completely agree with this sentiment, here. If it weren't for the fact that specializing like this practically requires a character to gouge out their own eye for knowledge, I probably wouldn't have bothered at all.


Also, talk to your DM, because if you can get higher level spell slots, you could technically "develop" more spells if you are a wizard, because I know there is a place somewhere in one of the books that tells you how you can "develop" (More accurately learn) new spells through arcane experimentation. Remember to tell your DM that this method requires an investment of both time and money, and he has full arbitration over it for the most part. It is an interesting way to avoid the cheese that is starting to ooze aroud in this thread should you start having to dodge books.

If that doesn't work, there are Incantations as noted by Biffoniacus_Furiou, which provide a flavorful, if risky way to mimic spells. It doesn't help in combat much, but you could mimic long term buffs as incantations and make buffing rituals!

Well, as Gnorman pointed out, this is just a thought exercise. I'll probably be building the character just so I have the result on record, but it's not presently for any game, so there isn't a DM to speak to. I do love Incantations, though.


Make 5th level spells 4th level spells by using Sanctum Spell and cast them using Versatile Spell Caster?

Huh. I've always heard it was a doozy, but I've never actually read Sanctum Spell. It's a bit weird, because I've read the anti-feat for that spell, when trying to power out reserve feats, but wow. That is one seriously poorly-worded feat.

It occupies a slot of the spell's normal level, though... hmm. I think this does mean if I can somehow know a spell of higher level than I would normally be allowed to, I could memorize it as a sanctum spell, though. As such it would be limited to an extremely specific spell list... so, that's probably okay, huh? Oh wait no. That's stupid. This is spontaneous casting. Jeez, I really need to get my head back in the game.

[TiaC]

Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage boost your Sorcerer casting to 9th level. Spellhording exchanges your Sorcerer casting for Wizard casting of the same level. Done.