I Need to Make a Ruling About Weapon Proficiency

[inexorabletruth]

I want to be reasonable about this. I'm usually rules heavy when I make a DM call, but this had me going:
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/pffff.+yeah+right.+as+if+_41c440d1d53af31ce381cba1 d7abb6d1.jpg

A player in my low-tier game is playing a monk. He wants to use MW gauntlets, so he can later get them enhanced when he's got the money. By RAW, Monks aren't proficient with gauntlets. But seriously... they're metal gloves, and they still count as an unarmed strike. How proficient does one have to be to use them?

So I was thinking about giving this the green light and saying he can use gauntlets, but not spiked gauntlets. What are your thoughts?

I want to make sure of a few things before I give him the ok:

That this ruling doesn't come back to bite me with a hidden game-breaking loophole (this is a low tier game and I'd like to keep it that way).
Whether or not I should give some stipulations for their use
That there's not a darn good reason why monks can't use gauntlets.


I was thinking about prohibiting Stunning Fist, Ki Strike, and Quivering Palm while wearing gauntlets, implying that the metal inhibits the flow of ki, but I wonder if I'm being too harsh or too complicated with that ruling.

[Goldfly]

I want to be reasonable about this. I'm usually rules heavy when I make a DM call, but this had me going:
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/pffff.+yeah+right.+as+if+_41c440d1d53af31ce381cba1 d7abb6d1.jpg

A player in my low-tier game is playing a monk. He wants to use MW gauntlets, so he can later get them enhanced when he's got the money. By RAW, Monks aren't proficient with gauntlets. But seriously... they're metal gloves, and they still count as an unarmed strike. How proficient does one have to be to use them?

So I was thinking about giving this the green light and saying he can use gauntlets, but not spiked gauntlets. What are your thoughts?

I want to make sure of a few things before I give him the ok:

That this ruling doesn't come back to bite me with a hidden game-breaking loophole (this is a low tier game and I'd like to keep it that way).
Whether or not I should give some stipulations for their use
That there's not a darn good reason why monks can't use gauntlets.


I was thinking about prohibiting Stunning Fist, Ki Strike, and Quivering Palm while wearing gauntlets, implying that the metal inhibits the flow of ki, but I wonder if I'm being too harsh or too complicated with that ruling.

I'd certainly allow it. I can't see this having any negative side effects at all, and monks in general could really use the boost.

[Urpriest]

By RAW, they don't count as an unarmed strike, they've got their own, fixed damage. A Monk can't deal extra damage with them, regardless of proficiency. So there is no reason for your player to want to use them. If your player wants to enhance their unarmed strike they can use a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) like everyone else.

[BRC]

I want to be reasonable about this. I'm usually rules heavy when I make a DM call, but this had me going:
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/pffff.+yeah+right.+as+if+_41c440d1d53af31ce381cba1 d7abb6d1.jpg

A player in my low-tier game is playing a monk. He wants to use MW gauntlets, so he can later get them enhanced when he's got the money. By RAW, Monks aren't proficient with gauntlets. But seriously... they're metal gloves, and they still count as an unarmed strike. How proficient does one have to be to use them?

So I was thinking about giving this the green light and saying he can use gauntlets, but not spiked gauntlets. What are your thoughts?

I want to make sure of a few things before I give him the ok:

That this ruling doesn't come back to bite me with a hidden game-breaking loophole (this is a low tier game and I'd like to keep it that way).
Whether or not I should give some stipulations for their use
That there's not a darn good reason why monks can't use gauntlets.


I was thinking about prohibiting Stunning Fist, Ki Strike, and Quivering Palm while wearing gauntlets, implying that the metal inhibits the flow of ki, but I wonder if I'm being too harsh or too complicated with that ruling.
Having played in many games that use this rule, let me tell you it's perfectly fine. No special stipulations needed. The last thing you need to worry about is a Monk breaking the game.

[Blood Seriph]

*According to the rules he cant, since gauntlets fall under simple weapons.
*Gauntlets have a set damage and cant be changed from lethal to non-leathal without the normal penalty associated with weapons.
*Also he cannot add his monk damage to the set damage of the gauntlets, its one or the other.

make sure they know that they can enchant their fists later on in the same way one does for weapons, it uses magic fang instead of magic weapon though I believe

I see no reason to disallow it, but I also see no benefits in doing this to his character.

[Yora]

Just do it. Isn't any different than fighting with a kama.

However, I assume you want to damage to increase with level, as it does for unarmed strike? In that case, the easiest solution is the mentioned necklace of natural attacks.
And there is no reason at all not to make them Gloves of Natural Attacks, which probably feel more right than a necklace.

[HunterOfJello]

Gauntlets are weapons. A person wearing them is armed. Unarmed strikes are strikes that are specifically "not armed". He could attack with them, but they would not increase in damage or allow flurry of blows. That's the way the game was designed. An example of this is the fact that PCs will often equip gauntlets and spiked armor with enchants for increasing initiative on each of the gauntlets and spikes. They can do this because they're armed with those weapons and their DMs are weirdos.

Ruling that unarmed attacks are natural attacks and that monks can use the aforementioned necklace is likely the best way to deal with things.

[Yora]

I think it's now almost 10 years ago when Neverwinter Nights came out and we worked on a big multiplayer module, and we had such gloves right from the start.
It could even be, that they were already included in the game, and I think that was just a year or so after 3rd Edition was released. People have been handing it that way since very early on.

[Telonius]

My own houserule on the subject: Monks can "enchant" their natural attacks and unarmed strikes by spending GP/XP/time as though they were a spellcaster of their Monk level. Fluff-wise, it's done via a meditation ceremony. Crunch- and cost-wise, it's nearly identical to having your party Wizard make you the necklace.

[Yora]

Or you could have runes tattooed on the hands with special ink that can hold weapon enchantments.

[kitcik]

Having played in many games that use this rule, let me tell you it's perfectly fine. No special stipulations needed. The last thing you need to worry about is a Monk breaking the game.

Me too and agreed.

[inexorabletruth]

I've learned more. He wants Cold Iron Gauntlets so he can fight things with DR/Cold Iron.

But the general consensus is to allow the gauntlets, which I think seems reasonable, though I will recommend the Necklace of Natural Attacks and the Tattoos, for future reference. He's only Level 4, so he doesn't have a lot of GP.

BTW, I always thought that gauntlets count as unarmed strikes because of this:

PHB, pg. 112, line 2:
A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
:smallconfused:

[Medic!]

That only means they don't exempt you from provoking an AoO with a character without improved unarmed strike.

You might point your player at the Magic Item Compendium's Scorpion Kama. You can use it as a baseline and manipulate the price to add enhancements or change weapon material types. And it doesn't have to stay a Kama either!

[inexorabletruth]

I've learned more. He wants Cold Iron Gauntlets so he can fight things with DR/Cold Iron.

But the general consensus is to allow the gauntlets, which I think seems reasonable, though I will recommend the Necklace of Natural Attacks and the Tattoos, for future reference. He's only Level 4, so he doesn't have a lot of GP.

BTW, I always thought that gauntlets count as unarmed strikes because of this:

PHB, pg. 112, line 2:
A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
:smallconfused:

[Yora]

Unarmed Attack, but the special monk abilities aplly specifically to Unarmed Strikes, which are just one type of the category of Unarmed Attacks.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would

[BRC]

I've learned more. He wants Cold Iron Gauntlets so he can fight things with DR/Cold Iron.

But the general consensus is to allow the gauntlets, which I think seems reasonable, though I will recommend the Necklace of Natural Attacks and the Tattoos, for future reference. He's only Level 4, so he doesn't have a lot of GP.

BTW, I always thought that gauntlets count as unarmed strikes because of this:

:smallconfused:

Also reasonable.

The lack of Full BAB and the need for every ability on the character sheet mean that Monks are bad enough without depriving them of a non-caster's primary tool: Their weapon.

[kitcik]

Has your monk taken the feat Simple Weapon Proficiency so that he is proficient in unarmed strikes?

Because, RAW, he does not get this as a monk.

In other wirds, RAW can be stupid, let him do the gauntlets.

[Frosty]

Yep. Monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes by RAW. Very dumb.

Btw, if your player is worried about DR, I suggest giving the monk a pool of "chi" point every day that he can spend as free actions to enhance his unarmed attacks for the round (like being able to bypass certain DR).

[kitcik]

My DM gave me "+1 Gloves of Bashing" which bypass up to DR/5 and otherwise act as a Necklace of Natural Attacks (allowing my unarmed strikes to be enchanted).

They are now +1 Warning Gloves of Bashing.:smallsmile:

[Thiyr]

Unarmed Attack, but the special monk abilities aplly specifically to Unarmed Strikes, which are just one type of the category of Unarmed Attacks.

I was gonna argue against this by pointing out that unarmed strike isn't a category of unarmed attacks, and that they just used shifty terminolgy, but in reality it just looks like unarmed strike is the term they used for "the weapon which is how unarmed damage is figured" fairly consistently, so it all checks out.

That said, if I'm the only one who was tempted to make a bad pun about unarmed strikes and ToB, I'll be disappointed.

[ericgrau]

From a balance POV the gauntlets might be enchanted as magic weapons, which could be an issue in a low OP game. But then, why is he getting them?

[BRC]

From a balance POV the gauntlets might be enchanted as magic weapons, which could be an issue in a low OP game. If you don't allow that then you'll be fine. But then, why is he getting them?

The point is to enchant them as Magic weapons. Which really shouldn't be an issue unless you're not letting the fighter enchant his sword.

The difference is that the Fighter might actually hit things occasionally.

[ericgrau]

That's what monk weapons and ki focus monk weapons are for.

I see two dangers: First that assumptions about medium-high optimization leads the DM to give free things to the monk, and second that he absolutely refuses to use weapons as a matter of style in which case even with the buff his damage will be reduced.

Remember folks, unarmed strikes are only for the monk's first level ability: stunning fist or grapple. Weapons do more damage.

If he's hard set on fist style points then I'd give him gauntlets that don't channel ki (unless he gets ki focus) nor increase grapple damage and I'd actually increase the damage of the gauntlets to make them closer to other monk weapons. Give him 1d6 knuckle weapons or something. Even that's kinda low compared to quarterstaff shillelagh tricks or kama tripping.

If you mean to give him scaling unarmed damage with enchantments on top of that you won't notice any problem now, but later the damage will get out of hand. High level monk fists do more than greatswords except they get many more attacks. And power attack on competing two-handers actually reduces high level damage per round without splatbook feats, because the attack bonus becomes worth more than the damage per hit at high levels.

[Waddacku]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet


This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.
The implication is fairly clear: This is an add-on to your unarmed strike. Everything that works with it should still be working here. The reason the gauntlet is listed as 1d3 damage is because that's the normal unarmed strike damage. Monk unarmed strike should override that.
And yeah, while monks aren't proficient with gauntlets, they're not proficient with unarmed strikes, either. It'd be quite absurd to not let them hit people with their metal mittens.

Both are in the Unarmed Attacks category, too, if that has any particular importance for anybody.

[Novawurmson]

I would say just let him pay 300g to make his unarmed strikes "masterwork" and the increasing amount of money to give his unarmed strikes magic enhancements. In a low-optimization environment, it's the least you can do.

If he's going tashalatora monk/psychic warrior, I might make him pay a little more, but it depends on how the rest of the party is optimizing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm gonna jump on the "let him do it, it won't hurt anything" band-wagon.

If you're absolutely rabid about staying with RAW, there's the necklace of natural attacks. Though I'd get it as a set of bracers of natural attacks, just as a flavor concern.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He might want to start making them out of different materials to bypass item-based DR (Cold Iron, Silver), or enchant them with various effects (enhancement equivalents).

Quite bluntly, a Monk doesn't have proficiency in Unarmed Attacks either, so anything you do will be a houserule.

Personally, I'd allow them, seeing as how they take up the glove slot, so he can't wear them with something like Gloves of Dexterity or Gloves of Storing or a Gauntlet of Rust.

[inexorabletruth]

Thinking more deeply about it, I have no idea why he doesn't just dual wield some cold iron sai. But anyway, I passed the ruling along to him. Thanks for all the advice, friends!

[HunterOfJello]

Thinking more deeply about it, I have no idea why he doesn't just dual wield some cold iron sai. But anyway, I passed the ruling along to him. Thanks for all the advice, friends!

Monk weapons don't increase in damage over time like the unarmed strikes do. Then again, increasing damage by a hit die every once in a while and giving it an occasional boost really don't increase your damage by much. The average damage of a 1d6 is 3.5 while the average damage of a 2d10 is 11. That's a pretty sad increase over a 20 lever period of time.

That's why prestige classes and the psychic warrior exist.

[BShammie]

... Remember folks, unarmed strikes are only for the monk's first level ability: stunning fist or grapple...

The SRD doesn't specify that. I'm fairly certain that the monk's unarmed damage applies to all unarmed attacks, not just Stunning Fist or those made while grappling.

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm)

[kitcik]

Remember folks, unarmed strikes are only for the monk's first level ability: stunning fist or grapple. Weapons do more damage.

With Improved Natural Attack, a medium monk's unarmed strike does 4d8 at 20th.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The SRD doesn't specify that. I'm fairly certain that the monk's unarmed damage applies to all unarmed attacks, not just Stunning Fist or those made while grappling.


I'm pretty sure the guy you're answering meant that those options are the only thing the unarmed strike progression is good for, not the only things it can be used with. He can correct me if I'm mistaken about his intent, though.