Obesity in D&D [3.5] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 04:14 PM

I haven't really found any statistics for obesity in D&D. I know it's supposed to be rare in a fantasy setting due to the lack of easily available high-fattening foods.

But, for the few adventurers that do have a lot of money to buy fattening foods, what would happen to them if they got fat? I know magical clothing and armor would grow to fit their new girth, but what penalties and/or bonuses should they receive in game?

Strength penalty? Increased Constitution? Charisma penalty? Charisma bonus (since being fat was seen as a sign of wealth)? Intimidate penalty/bonus? Diplomacy penalty/bonus? Speed penalty?

Plus, how fat does someone have to get in order to receive these bonuses/penalties? Are there varing degrees of fatness that would increase the penalties/bonuses?

Lastly, are there some races/classes in D&D that can pack on the pounds easier than a human? Is it even possible for elves to put on weight? Do Orcs gain 5 pounds just by looking at a chocolate cake? Since Wizards spend a lot of time reading books and not doing a lot of excersize, do they have spells that can help shed the pounds or do they just not care when they put on 50 pounds?

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 04:16 PM

IIRC book of vile darkness has a vile feat for obesity.

edit: found it- Deformity (obese) [vile] +2 con, -2 dex, +2 intimidate, prereq willing deformity

Morithias

2012-09-12, 04:17 PM

Strength penalty? Increased Constitution? Charisma penalty? Charisma bonus (since being fat was seen as a sign of wealth)? Intimidate penalty/bonus? Diplomacy penalty/bonus? Speed penalty?

I believe the "Willing Deformity Obese" Feat, boosts your con by 2, reduces dex by 2, and makes your weight "3 times" the normal amount.

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 04:17 PM

IIRC book of vile darkness has a vile feat for obesity.

Wait, wait, wait. You mean you have to spend a feat in D&D to get fat?

Hirax

2012-09-12, 04:20 PM

There's a feat tax for so many things in D&D, that doesn't really surprise me. There's a stout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#stout) trait in Unearthed Arcana, too.

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 04:20 PM

Wait, wait, wait. You mean you have to spend a feat in D&D to get fat?

Yep. Intentional gorging and gluttony not only requires a feat, but makes you evil as well.

Alabenson

2012-09-12, 04:22 PM

Well, you could rule that overweight character's get Obese as a bonus feat, but then you run the risk of feat-starved characters overeating so that they can Chaos Shuffle it into something better. :smalltongue:

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 04:24 PM

Yep. Intentional gorging and gluttony not only requires a feat, but makes you evil as well.

LOL

So, the Book of Vile Darkness is saying that all fat people are evil?!

That's soo stupid. So when we meet someone in D&D and they are overweight, there is no need for the Paladin to cast detect evil. We automatically know they are evil since they had to "willingly deform" themselves and purchase vile feats.

kitcik

2012-09-12, 04:25 PM

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 04:27 PM

Ignoring the feat and trait for a sec, just apply the difference between the character's actaual weight and the maximum "normal" weight for their race and count that toward encumbrance, which has its own penalties...

That's not a bad idea. It's simple and it doesn't make you evil.

The thought that there are no fat good people in the D&D universe is just mind boggling.

Flickerdart

2012-09-12, 04:33 PM

"Obese" is also a flaw that Small characters can take. It basically eliminates all the advantages of being Small,

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 04:33 PM

As said before, there's the stout feat which makes just a bit overweight, but obesity is in fact ruled as evil.

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 04:34 PM

"Obese" is also a flaw that Small characters can take. It basically eliminates all the advantages of being Small,

I rarely ever play small characters. Also, most of my DM's don't let me take Flaws, so I've normally just skipped reading them.

As said before, there's the stout feat which makes just a bit overweight, but obesity is in fact ruled as evil.

I think that's just ridiculous.

"I'm sorry Timmy. You can't play the Kung Fu Panda as a good character. In order to be an obese character, you'd have to be evil."

Lord Il Palazzo

2012-09-12, 04:46 PM

Ignoring the feat and trait for a sec, just apply the difference between the character's actaual weight and the maximum "normal" weight for their race and count that toward encumbrance, which has its own penalties...I'll agree that this seems like the best way to do it. I'd be inclined to make it a trait with some slight mechanical upside though, like maybe a +1 on fortitude saves (since it takes more of a poison to have the same effect on a larger target.)

awa

2012-09-12, 04:48 PM

now technically to be fair this is not you need a feat to be fat this is some kind of unnatural alteration to the body (also i believe that you need to take a junk feat before your allowed to take the obesity one) in real life being obese is not going to make you a long distance runner and give you resistance to disease in fact obese people tend to be less healthy and tire far more easily best represented by a con penalty.

personally i think adventuring is far to strenuous a life style to ever become obese healthy layer of fat sure but obese no way. That said i would first give them all the penalties of a heavy load plus a small penalty to strength and a large penalty to dex and con.
also they would be unable to run and may become fatigued after a minute or so of strenuous activity

Venger

2012-09-12, 05:07 PM

Yep. Intentional gorging and gluttony not only requires a feat, but makes you evil as well.

It actually requires 2 feats. first willing deformity, then deformity (obese) which, as said, confusingly makes you healthier.

wotc hates fat people. we learn something every day

the real question though, is what would happen if someone took obese and gaunt. unlike most feats like this,there is no proviso in either that says you can't take the other. would they be split vertically? horizontally? at random? would they have a beer belly but little chicken legs? would they have hammy thighs but clearly visible ribs?

honestly, your character's level of physical fitness is one of the few things that this game lets you actually choose instead of roll/pay for, so I say just enjoy it. if being overweight is important to your guy/gal's backstory/concept, then just put it in, you shouldn't be penalized for something that will give you no benefit. on the same logic that the -4 str penalty for women isn't a rule in 3.5, I don't think it's really very fair to say that people should take penalties because their characters are fat.

lsfreak

2012-09-12, 05:08 PM

I'll agree that this seems like the best way to do it. I'd be inclined to make it a trait with some slight mechanical upside though, like maybe a +1 on fortitude saves (since it takes more of a poison to have the same effect on a larger target.)

I would give save bonuses versus poison, rather than a flat +Fort, since that would also make an extremely overweight person better than long-distance running than a thin person.

I could see them taking a penalty to all the Physical scores. An obese person is not going to be able to swing a sword with the speed and agility necessary to keep it from being easily blocked or dodged, and may even lack the flexibility to do certain basic attacks (such as a really strong, arms-behind-the-head overhead attack). Of course, when you're running around with two extra sets of plate gear strapped to your back, that's unlikely as well.

I'd say it could be assumed wizards burn the same amount of calories as any physical-based warrior, but that they simply burn them differently.

Really though, most adventurers are not going to be obese. It's far too active and far too dangerous a lifestyle for an obese person to do well in, and adventuring is a profession where if you don't do well, you end up dead. A strict party face or spellcaster could be a possible exception, but even then I find it unlikely.

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 05:17 PM

It actually requires 2 feats. first willing deformity, then deformity (obese) which, as said, confusingly makes you healthier.

wotc hates fat people. we learn something every day

the real question though, is what happens if someone took obese and gaunt. unlike most feats like this, there is no proviso in either that says you can't take the other. would they be split vertically? horizontally? at random? would they have a beer belly but little chicken legs? would they have hammy thighs but clearly visible ribs?

Actually the feat DOES specify under special that you cannot take gaunt.

Venger

2012-09-12, 05:20 PM

Actually the feat DOES specify under special that you cannot take gaunt.

whoops!

as is my custom, I'll strikethrough my earlier post's mistakes but not delete them so I don't give the impression of trying to hide my wrongness.

Zombimode

2012-09-12, 05:21 PM

LOL
So, the Book of Vile Darkness is saying that all fat people are evil?!

No, it doesn't.
Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony -> vile
and
Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony -> fat

From those two, (fat -> vile) does not follow.

You can be fat for other reasons then Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony.

Lord Il Palazzo

2012-09-12, 05:34 PM

I would give save bonuses versus poison, rather than a flat +Fort, since that would also make an extremely overweight person better than long-distance running than a thin person.Actually, it's CON checks, not fort saves that are used to keep running, swimming and things like that which is why I went with fortitude over a flat bonus to constitution. Still, valid points otherwise.

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 05:35 PM

No, it doesn't.
Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony -> vile
and
Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony -> fat

From those two, (fat -> vile) does not follow.

You can be fat for other reasons then Intentional and Unrestrained Gluttony.

So, if you don't have to be evil or take the feats, then what would be the game statistics for a non-vile, non-evil, fat person?

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 05:41 PM

So, if you don't have to be evil or take the feats, then what would be the game statistics for a non-vile, non-evil, fat person?

There's the problem, there aren't any rules for it other than that.

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 05:44 PM

There's the problem, there aren't any rules for it other than that.

That sucks more than the Dyson Vacuum Cleaner. :smallannoyed:

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 05:47 PM

That sucks more than the Dyson Vacuum Cleaner. :smallannoyed:

Remember Rule #1

Ravens_cry

2012-09-12, 05:48 PM

As said before, there's the stout feat which makes just a bit overweight, but obesity is in fact ruled as evil.
I think the willing deformity: Obeasity is meant to be more than fat, but glutinous morbid obesity.
Don't think Santa Claus, think Mr. Creosote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v29QfOyuZ3Y). (Not Safe for Weak Stomachs)
Stout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm)covers more typical levels of overweightness.

Kalirren

2012-09-12, 06:03 PM

Obesity isn't evil in D&D. What is evil is the praxis of gluttony as a form of spiritual devotion to that particular sin. Deformity(gaunt) also exists like this. That wouldn't be simple anorexia, it would be religious anorexia.

The mechanics for generating height and weight are given, and they encompass pretty most of the variability in people.

Say you're making a male human. First you roll for height, 4'10" + 2d10 in., then you roll the weight, 120 lbs. +(2d4) which is 2d4 * whatever you rolled on the 2d10. That can be as high as 160 extra pounds. A 6'6", 280-pound person is pretty hefty, and certainly obese by even modern standards, but height and weight alone don't tell you much about muscle mass or cardiovascular health. I can imagine a 6'6", 280 lb. person with high Str and high Con, and I can imagine a 6'6", 280 lb. person with low-ish Str and horrible Con.

So I would think that the rules have it covered pretty well. It's ability attributes that really matter in pretty much every case, except for pressure plates. :smallamused:

Venger

2012-09-12, 06:12 PM

I think the willing deformity: Obeasity is meant to be more than fat, but glutinous morbid obesity.
Don't think Santa Claus, think Mr. Creosote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v29QfOyuZ3Y). (Not Safe for Weak Stomachs)
Stout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm)covers more typical levels of overweightness.

because, of course, all fat people choose to be fat.

your typo of "glutinous" is hilariously apt given the situation, and I do indeed see your point.

that video was awesome. I feel like saying it made me bust a gut, but that seems a little too obvious.

for reference, deformity (obese) says that you're "at least" triple the weight for creatures of your kind and doesn't place a maximum cap on it, which has great potential for hilarity, but let's go "by the book" as it were.

while I don't know anyone who's actually rolled for height/weight instead of just kind of choosing it, the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm) for say, a human male, will give you a weight between 372 pounds at an even 5'0" and a hilarious 840 pounds at 6'6". you'd be barely recognizable as whatever your original species was at that point.

ericgrau

2012-09-12, 06:19 PM

It doesn't exist (in a mundane, non-vile form) because it's nothing but penalties and presumably adventurers would want to keep themselves fit before engaging in life threatening activities.

But as part of a background you might give a con penalty (-1 or -2 most likely, depending on the level of obesity), and have X number of pounds put towards the PC's carrying capacity. I don't think a str penalty is appropriate because of all the counterexamples that exist and I think str/dex/skill issues are already covered by the encumbrance rules. I think the thought behind a con bonus comes from the fantasy stereotype that bigger = more hp, when really you're less healthy and less able to take a hit. The only thing I might give a bonus to would be resisting bull rush attempts and maybe resisting trips, similar to a dwarf or sumo wrestler.

If you didn't want to penalize a player for having an interesting concept, you might make it into a flaw. But beware of taking it too far and inviting min-maxing: "Thank you team of nothing but morbidly-obese-heroes, I don't know how you overcame a dungeon with stairs in it, but once again you were the greatest there is!"

Answerer

2012-09-12, 06:28 PM

1. D&D does not really have a lot of rules regarding obesity because that thing is below its abstraction threshold. Those sorts of differences, for the most part, are simply ignored in favor of streamlining the game. Lots of things in D&D are abstracted. This is generally a good thing. Personally, I don't consider someone's weight relative their height to be particularly meaningful in the context of their role as a fantasy hero/villain. That's a plot point or character trait, for roleplaying, not (generally) a mechanical thing.

2. The Book of Vile Darkness does not state that obesity is evil or that obese people are evil.

Rather, it provides a particular feat for modeling an evil character who ritualistically gorges himself and attempts to deform his body by increasing its fat content. This is generally a religious activity done to worship/appease some arch-devil or demon lord associated with gluttony.

The feat doesn't make you evil, it requires that you be evil, because it's the result of engaging in this worship of an evil being.

Flickerdart

2012-09-12, 06:29 PM

"Thank you team of nothing but morbidly-obese-heroes, I don't know how you overcame a dungeon with stairs in it, but once again you were the greatest there is!"
A series of morbidly obese mages, daisy chaining Tenser's Floating Disks - the first disk is cast by someone who can actually walk, the first fat mage sits on it, casts the spell, the next mage sits on that disk and so forth. It wouldn't be very manoeuvrable, but you could definitely make it work.

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 06:39 PM

Doesn't tenser's disk have a rather low weight limit?

Edit: my mistake. Its 100 per caster level, so they'd need to be like lvl 5 or 6 at least

awa

2012-09-12, 06:49 PM

i don't know about resisting bull rushes all the very heavy people i know (admittedly an extremely small sample size) were prone to falls and seemed generally unstable

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 06:54 PM

The reason I ask is because my DM likes to abuse grapple checks. This last game session, the bad guy could fly and he was large.

The bad guy grappled some people, flew up as far as he could go, then dropped us. He could only fly if he was not carrying more than his weight limit.

My next character I want to play will be a Half-Minotaur that is slightly if not morbidly obese. I want my weight to top around 2,000 pounds to prevent large flying bad guys to pick up my character.

Flickerdart

2012-09-12, 06:55 PM

i don't know about resisting bull rushes all the very heavy people i know (admittedly an extremely small sample size) were prone to falls and seemed generally unstable
That would be Trip, not Bull Rush.

Ravens_cry

2012-09-12, 07:05 PM

because, of course, all fat people choose to be fat.

If you are taking two feats in order to become grotesquely overweight, I would say you chose to be fat.

Doesn't tenser's disk have a rather low weight limit?

Edit: my mistake. Its 100 per caster level, so they'd need to be like lvl 5 or 6 at least
Very . . .Harkonnen.:smallamused:

LTwerewolf

2012-09-12, 07:08 PM

A minotaur (you can argue your character takes more after that side) averages 700 lbs. Could easily get to 1000 as overweight without changing anything. Full plate adds 100 lbs. Large tower shield another 90. You don't even have to equip them. Also creatures can't fly with a medium load, not heavy. That puts you at almost 1200 lbs before any other gear.

ericgrau

2012-09-12, 07:12 PM

That would be Trip, not Bull Rush.

I brought up both though. Some googling revealed a lot of info on sumo "bull rush" but nothing on tripping. So maybe only give a bonus to resist bull rush.

As for extra instability, I think the encumbrance penalties to balance and so on already cover this as it only applies to those who have trouble carrying their own weight. I also suspect his obese friends have low strength. This is not always the case, especially on athletes or adventurers I'd think. It seems more like one common issue (being sedentary) causing two different problems.

A series of morbidly obese mages, daisy chaining Tenser's Floating Disks - the first disk is cast by someone who can actually walk, the first fat mage sits on it, casts the spell, the next mage sits on that disk and so forth. It wouldn't be very manoeuvrable, but you could definitely make it work.
The bigger issue is not whether they pull it off, but that they actually do it better than the skinny can. Such is the result in D&D of giving too much of a bonus for a flaw if you're not careful :smallbiggrin:. For other flaws this turns into Charles Xavier / Daredevil syndrome... and pretty soon the greatest heroes in the world are a bunch of cripples.

Scow2

2012-09-12, 07:52 PM

I'd like to clarify something: The "Willing Deformity: Obese" Vile Feat is NOT for or representative of every fat person. The Stout trait works for that for the most part, and for NPCs, natural stat spreads, some feats, certain flaws (Such as Feeble), and the upper end of the weight limit can all be used to flavor natural obesity.

The "Willing Deformity: Obese" vile feat is for people like Jabba/Pizza the Hutt from Star Wars/SpaceBalls or Fat Bastard from Austin Powers: physical manifestations of the Mortal Sin of Gluttony. You know the archetype - trying to be "politically correct" about it makes you look like a fool.

It doesn't exist (in a mundane, non-vile form) because it's nothing but penalties and presumably adventurers would want to keep themselves fit before engaging in life threatening activities.

But as part of a background you might give a con penalty (-1 or -2 most likely, depending on the level of obesity), and have X number of pounds put towards the PC's carrying capacity. I don't think a str penalty is appropriate because of all the counterexamples that exist and I think str/dex/skill issues are already covered by the encumbrance rules. I think the thought behind a con bonus comes from the fantasy stereotype that bigger = more hp, when really you're less healthy and less able to take a hit. The only thing I might give a bonus to would be resisting bull rush attempts and maybe resisting trips, similar to a dwarf or sumo wrestler.

If you didn't want to penalize a player for having an interesting concept, you might make it into a flaw. But beware of taking it too far and inviting min-maxing: "Thank you team of nothing but morbidly-obese-heroes, I don't know how you overcame a dungeon with stairs in it, but once again you were the greatest there is!"
Actually, fat people actually are capable of taking more 'damage' from my observations - Extra padding against bludgeon attacks, and extra space piercing and slashing weapons have to penetrate before they threaten any vital organs - Fat people also have more blood than thinner people, to accommodate the greater body volume. In fact, Roman Gladiators were usually at least slightly overweight because the extra fat allowed them to bleed more spectacularly and recieve harsher blows before their lives were actually seriously at stake (Most gladiator fights weren't to the death: a dead gladiator can't develop a fan followings to fill the stadiums)

INoKnowNames

2012-09-12, 08:24 PM

I think that's just ridiculous.

"I'm sorry Timmy. You can't play the Kung Fu Panda as a good character. In order to be an obese character, you'd have to be evil."

It is -always- Little Timmy asking for things... none of the other kids try to shake things up; it is -always- Timmy.

Also, Po was a big big for the general public, but he was not only losing weight by the second movie, but wasn't too much bigger than any of the other pandas we saw. I'd say he's just got a different race than the rest of the characters... which is in fact, true.

And as mentioned, the Vile Feat is more for the people that... well, look like this:

http://blog-imgs-23.fc2.com/s/i/m/simplydead/futurama_human_bender.jpg

awa

2012-09-12, 08:30 PM

Venger

2012-09-12, 08:35 PM

And as mentioned, the Vile Feat is more for the people that... well, look like this:

WOO!

(I didn't say anything, it was just gas escaping)

Kansaschaser

2012-09-12, 08:42 PM

It is -always- Little Timmy asking for things... none of the other kids try to shake things up; it is -always- Timmy.

Also, Po was a big big for the general public, but he was not only losing weight by the second movie, but wasn't too much bigger than any of the other pandas we saw. I'd say he's just got a different race than the rest of the characters... which is in fact, true.

And as mentioned, the Vile Feat is more for the people that... well, look like this:

theirs a difference between having fat on you and being obese. a good layering of fat is good for you in many types of athletic endeavors and can be used as fuel for long term endurance. but obesity is not just having fat it's having so much fat that it hinders your health. if you have a lot of fat but so much muscle underneath that you can still move around reasonably well and engage in intense physical activity (like combat) then you may be heavy but your not obese.

my moms teach nutritional science and I'm going over to her house for dinner tomorrow so when I'm their ill ask her.

Let me ask you this. Are Sumo wrestlers in the Heavy Weight and Super Heavy Weight considered obese? Also, do you consider Sumo Wrestling an "intense physical activity"?

On another note: I now have an idea for a Swordsage that uses Setting Sun and is a Sumo Wrestler. As big as E. Honda from the Street Fighter series.

awa

2012-09-12, 09:06 PM

according to wikipedia sumo matches typically last less than a minute
compare that to the queens berry boxing rules (the first boxing type i could find round length for) and the fighters fought 3 minute rounds and potential a much larger number of them. in addition boxer do exponentially more dodging around then sumo wrestlers.

So that fits the start to weaken fairly quickly due to heavy weight hypothesis. I imagine if you asked a sumo do doge sword blow they would tire exponentially faster.
(also don't get me wrong im not saying their not athletes im just saying they are not in an endurance sport)

edit the point isnt about weight its about the fact that obesity is defined by the fact that it's unhealthy. a man who weighed 600 pounds would not be obese if most of that was muscle

INoKnowNames

2012-09-12, 09:07 PM

Let me ask you this. Are Sumo wrestlers in the Heavy Weight and Super Heavy Weight considered obese? Also, do you consider Sumo Wrestling an "intense physical activity"?

On another note: I now have an idea for a Swordsage that uses Setting Sun and is a Sumo Wrestler. As big as E. Honda from the Street Fighter series.

Considering they don't usually require special help just to walk, I'd give them a pass. Not to mention they're getting healthier.

And Sumo Wrestling is pretty damn intense, yeah.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-12, 09:29 PM

awa

2012-09-12, 09:33 PM

okay so just watched a video about sumo weight gain sumo wrestlers have their fat layer just under the skin rather then through out the body dramatically reducing the normal health concerns of being heavy.

i will concede that some one who deliberately gains weight under a regime akin to that of a sumo wrestler may be technically obese by the methods used to measure such things and still be fairly healthy (at least compared to a normal obese person or non athlete.)

edit the problem is the way obesity is currently measured sumo are often technically obese although that just goes to show that the system used to determine obesity is flawed.

INoKnowNames

2012-09-12, 09:51 PM

although that just goes to show that the system used to determine obesity is flawed.

Here's a good measure: Can you move around your house without another person or device needed to help you support your weight?

That's the kind of thing that's really obese. Fat people are fat. Obese people are obese. The current main thing is Body Mass Index, but given all the things that go into your body's -mass-, especially muscle, it's not fair to compare it to weight.

Another good scale, provided by Fluffy Gabriel Iglacias (spell check needed)

Normal
Healthy
Husky
Fluffy
DAMN!
AWW HELL NAW!

Obesity is more in the DAMN! and AWW HELL NAW! levels. You have to actually -try- to be that kinda big, that people weigh getting off the elevator / blocking you from getting in.

Ravens_cry

2012-09-12, 11:08 PM

Sumos are a terrible example for obesity. Have you ever seen those guys move? It's shocking how quickly they can shift that much weight, and just as shocking how quickly they can stop. There's a crap-ton of muscle under all that flab.

Sumos are definitely "overweight" but they are -not- obese.
From a medical standpoint I would say they are. All that weight still puts a huge strain on their bodies, though there is also a tremendous amount of muscle under all that adipose tissue.
Same with many weightlifters as opposed to body builders.
That being said, I agree that sumo wrestlers are not a good example of the weakness of obesity.

ThiagoMartell

2012-09-12, 11:39 PM

LOL

So, the Book of Vile Darkness is saying that all fat people are evil?!
No. Willing Deformity is about twisting your body in certain ways to please/emulate certain creatures/concepts. It's not just "being fat".

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-12, 11:57 PM

No. Willing Deformity is about twisting your body in certain ways to please/emulate certain creatures/concepts. It's not just "being fat".

It's also not just obese, but morbidly obese. A character that takes willing deformity and obese triples his body weight. An average human male, according to the PHB is 5'9" and 175lbs. After taking the vile feats, he's 5'9" and 525lbs. He looks more like some sort of underinflated balloon figure than a human being at that point, and he did this to himself deliberately to please some dark power.

...... is it even possible for someone with a frame that small to get that big?

Ravens_cry

2012-09-13, 12:17 AM

Given some of the weights and heights listed here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_heaviest_people), I would say yes.

Malroth

2012-09-13, 12:40 AM

Makes me want to start a focused specalist conjurer with willing deformity obese who uses benign transportaton to swap places with his humming bird familliar hovering above the enemies heads

Knaight

2012-09-13, 12:41 AM

theirs a difference between having fat on you and being obese. a good layering of fat is good for you in many types of athletic endeavors and can be used as fuel for long term endurance. but obesity is not just having fat it's having so much fat that it hinders your health. if you have a lot of fat but so much muscle underneath that you can still move around reasonably well and engage in intense physical activity (like combat) then you may be heavy but your not obese.
Obesity is defined by BMI 30+, which is nowhere near enough to innately prevent being able to fight. At 6 feet, that is only 221 pounds, which is entirely within the range of muscular with a body fat percentage in the low single digits. Putting aside how BMI is a bit of a mess, and how it breaks down badly enough with modern athletes and would only be much worse when dealing with people marching around, getting in deadly skirmishes frequently, and doing various other adventuring stuff.

Kansaschaser

2012-09-13, 06:36 AM

Makes me want to start a focused specalist conjurer with willing deformity obese who uses benign transportaton to swap places with his humming bird familliar hovering above the enemies heads

That would only get really bad if you could cast Ironbody first. Then you'd be a massive chunk of solid iron.

Andorax

2012-09-13, 05:59 PM

I haven't really found any statistics for obesity in D&D. I know it's supposed to be rare in a fantasy setting due to the lack of easily available high-fattening foods.

I suppose if one wanted to package up obesity conveniently...one could hit them with both the Stout flaw AND let them have the Willing Deformity: Obese feat as the bonus feat for it (yes, that ignores pre-requisites of both another feat and alignment).

A flaw for a feat is considered balanced, the benefits and drawbacks seem reasonable.

Ravens_cry

2012-09-13, 06:03 PM

I suppose if one wanted to package up obesity conveniently...one could hit them with both the Stout flaw AND let them have the Willing Deformity: Obese feat as the bonus feat for it (yes, that ignores pre-requisites of both another feat and alignment).

A flaw for a feat is considered balanced, the benefits and drawbacks seem reasonable.
Stout isn't a a Flaw, it's a Trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm); it gives bonuses as well as negatives.

awa

2012-09-13, 07:16 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-13, 07:24 PM

Having now reviewed it, I'm gonna toss my vote in for just picking up the stout trait.

Willing deformity obese, almost certainly represents a -much- fatter character than you're actually looking for, while the stout trait's fluff description is describing a more normal degree of fat: big enough to have some effect on your physical ability and personality, but not so big you're a human blob.

INoKnowNames

2012-09-13, 07:41 PM

the thing is the body mass index is used to try and identify obesity and for the general population it works well its easy to use and usually works. but it does not work with extreme situations like large athletes (such as foot ball players or sumo).

but all that means is that the testing method used to determine if some one is obese is not perfect and can have false positives.

... (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439) you should (http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/how-accurate-body-mass-index-bmi) do some (http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2012/02/10/why-the-body-mass-index-bmi-is-a-poor-measure-of-your-health/) reading.

It doesn't account for your body's proportions, age, gender, body shape, or any other factor that could account for your weight. Just height and weight. That's a hell of a lot of outliers to miss out on. Really, a physician and a physical check of yourself is the best way to determine how healthy you are. Some people are naturally bigger, but not actually in any way fat.

Some fat people, due to bodily proportions, don't ring as high on the BMI as they should. And of course, people with muscles ring as obese when they're much more healthy than the average population. I love how they include Micheal Jordon as an example of an "overweight" person by the BMI scale. It'd be kinda hard to call Micheal freaking Jordon fat.

or some one who is extremely stocky but has a large amount of muscle underneath, if that's what your trying to depict then i would probably not add any modifiers just represent it with a character with low dex and high strength and con.

There's an entire tropeset of characters that are fat, but also incredibly strong, dextrous, and bulky, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Acrofatic)with such traits having no bearing on their mental stats (so you wouldn't necesarally dump them to get the rest of the build). How would one represent them?

I additionally support the Stout trait.

Khatoblepas

2012-09-13, 08:21 PM

That would only get really bad if you could cast Ironbody first. Then you'd be a massive chunk of solid iron.

Well, there is a specific build I was throwing around ages ago:

Dragonborn Half Ogre Cloistered Cleric (Pride, Sloth) 1/ Crusader 8/Divine Crusader (Competition)1/Contemplative (Earth) 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator (Fluff Stripped) 9

Get beholden to an elder evil for Deformity (Obese) and get persistant metamagic because yes.

Next, Persist Giant Size (competition) and Iron Body (Earth).

Your weight is:
240lbs (base)
x8 (base multiplier, 2d4)
x3 (Obese)
+10% (Dragonborn)

{ Using x8 per size catagory as per Enlarge Person
x24 (>Huge>Gargantuan>Colossal)
x10 (Iron Body)
=1,520,640lbs.
}
{Using real math,
6,424,821lbs ( 86 inches > 864 inches)
x10 (Iron Body)
= 64,248,210lbs
}
86
864

That's approximately 7603d6 (321,241d6 for real math mode) worth of damage if you use the falling object damage rules (object weight isn't capped, unlike fall distance. You'd only take fall distance d6s). Of course, this is very, very silly and would never fly in a real game, and someone will probably pick at my math, which was never very good.

On the other hand, you're a giant monster! Rejoice!

----------------

On the subject of modelling more reasonable fat people, I wouldn't give them any particular maluses or bonuses, I'd just say they're fat. If they're really fat, Stout + Slow Traits. I've played plenty of fat adventurers, it's mostly an aesthetic thing.

And it's incredibly easy to get fat once you've gained a few levels and eat nothing but Hero's Feast and forget to take off your Ring of Sustenence. It says it gives you life giving nourishment, not that it takes it away if you also eat. It's a danger!

Knaight

2012-09-13, 08:44 PM

It doesn't account for your body's proportions, age, gender, body shape, or any other factor that could account for your weight. Just height and weight. That's a hell of a lot of outliers to miss out on.

Shoulder breadth to height ratios alone mess with BMI, as does BMI using a weight/height squared based formula, where weight and height don't follow that normally (they don't follow cubed either as proportions generally change, but that's a different matter). It's really a pretty terrible indicator.

awa

2012-09-13, 08:56 PM

... (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439) you should (http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/how-accurate-body-mass-index-bmi) do some (http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2012/02/10/why-the-body-mass-index-bmi-is-a-poor-measure-of-your-health/) reading.

It doesn't account for your body's proportions, age, gender, body shape, or any other factor that could account for your weight. Just height and weight. That's a hell of a lot of outliers to miss out on. Really, a physician and a physical check of yourself is the best way to determine how healthy you are. Some people are naturally bigger, but not actually in any way fat.

Some fat people, due to bodily proportions, don't ring as high on the BMI as they should. And of course, people with muscles ring as obese when they're much more healthy than the average population. I love how they include Micheal Jordon as an example of an "overweight" person by the BMI scale. It'd be kinda hard to call Micheal freaking Jordon fat.

There's an entire tropeset of characters that are fat, but also incredibly strong, dextrous, and bulky, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Acrofatic)with such traits having no bearing on their mental stats (so you wouldn't necesarally dump them to get the rest of the build). How would one represent them?

I additionally support the Stout trait.
now i only skimmed it extremely briefly But one of your own sources says many professionals use it and the other says that it works well for large portions of the population

"Before I get into the various limitations of BMI, I must point out that the measure is quite useful across large populations, as it is well correlated with the degree of adiposity, and of course it is extremely simple to measure in clinical practice." that was from the source you cited

is it a perfect by all means no is it completely useless also no. I only specified athletes breaking the body mass index and not the other things that can do it because the discussion was centered around athletes sumo in particular.

Knaight

2012-09-13, 09:09 PM

now i only skimmed it extremely briefly But one of your own sources says many professionals use it and the other says that it works well for large portions of the population

"Before I get into the various limitations of BMI, I must point out that the measure is quite useful across large populations, as it is well correlated with the degree of adiposity, and of course it is extremely simple to measure in clinical practice." that was from the source you cited

That doesn't say it works for large portions of the population, it says it is useful across large populations. Saying that one person has a BMI of 27 doesn't mean much, saying that the average BMI is 27 in a particular geographic region or among a particular population demographic does. Those are two very different things.

INoKnowNames

2012-09-13, 09:35 PM

now i only skimmed it extremely briefly But one of your own sources says many professionals use it and the other says that it works well for large portions of the population

Cute that you skimmed it briefly enough to try to find one polite comment amist a wave of negative fact about its worthlessness.

is it a perfect by all means no is it completely useless also no.

Considering it's over 200 years old and based not only on a formula completely irrelevant to the subject material, but a formula that might not have actually fit the study it was based on (instead being outright forged to fit the study so the scientist could save face), and it doesn't factor in far more than enough variables that would easily discredit any other scientific theory or item, I feel valid in saying it's completely useless.

Venger

2012-09-13, 09:59 PM

Considering it's over 200 years old and based not only on a formula completely irrelevant to the subject material, but a formula that might not have actually fit the study it was based on (instead being outright forged to fit the study so the scientist could save face), and it doesn't factor in far more than enough variables that would easily discredit any other scientific theory or item, I feel valid in saying it's completely useless.

your assessment is indeed correct. doctors do not use this for precisely this reason. my mom's a pediatrician, and indeed confirms that when it's time to check weight, BMI doesn't make any sense, when they're young or ever, really

further reading (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439)

*maths*

that falling damage calculation was quite the doozy. you could squash just about anything vulnerable to HP damage with that

Kelb_Panthera

2012-09-13, 10:52 PM

Well, there is a specific build I was throwing around ages ago:

Dragonborn Half Ogre Cloistered Cleric (Pride, Sloth) 1/ Crusader 8/Divine Crusader (Competition)1/Contemplative (Earth) 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator (Fluff Stripped) 9

Get beholden to an elder evil for Deformity (Obese) and get persistant metamagic because yes.

Next, Persist Giant Size (competition) and Iron Body (Earth).

Your weight is:
240lbs (base)
x8 (base multiplier, 2d4)
x3 (Obese)
+10% (Dragonborn)

{ Using x8 per size catagory as per Enlarge Person
x24 (>Huge>Gargantuan>Colossal)
x10 (Iron Body)
=1,520,640lbs.
}
{Using real math,
6,424,821lbs ( 86 inches > 864 inches)
x10 (Iron Body)
= 64,248,210lbs
}
86
864

That's approximately 7603d6 (321,241d6 for real math mode) worth of damage if you use the falling object damage rules (object weight isn't capped, unlike fall distance. You'd only take fall distance d6s). Of course, this is very, very silly and would never fly in a real game, and someone will probably pick at my math, which was never very good.

On the other hand, you're a giant monster! Rejoice!

----------------

On the subject of modelling more reasonable fat people, I wouldn't give them any particular maluses or bonuses, I'd just say they're fat. If they're really fat, Stout + Slow Traits. I've played plenty of fat adventurers, it's mostly an aesthetic thing.

And it's incredibly easy to get fat once you've gained a few levels and eat nothing but Hero's Feast and forget to take off your Ring of Sustenence. It says it gives you life giving nourishment, not that it takes it away if you also eat. It's a danger!

I actually got 32,440,320lbs, but that doesn't really make much difference. 3500d6 is just as good as 7000d6 when nothing outside of the epic handbook, except maybe a couple of gods, would survive if they all came up 1's.

That's 240X8X3X1.1 = 6336 lbs before magic.

then 6336 X8 X8 X8 = 3,244,032 for giant size (every time an objects dimensions double it's volume increases 8 fold. large-huge 1 doubling, huge-gargantuan 1doubling, garg-colossal 1 doubling. 3 doublings = 512X base weight.

X10 for iron body and you get 32,440,320 divide by 200 for falling object damage and you get 162,201d6 damage, an average of 567,703.5 damage.

...... That's alot more than 7000d6.

Andorax

2012-09-14, 07:56 AM

Stout isn't a a Flaw, it's a Trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm); it gives bonuses as well as negatives.

Ah...missed it. And found it:

Obese the flaw in Dragon 328.

It's stretching a few rules, but I can readily see the Obese flaw and the Obese feat combined together (though I wouldn't add the weight multipliers together...that's a bit much).

Flickerdart

2012-09-14, 09:08 AM

Ah...missed it. And found it:

Obese the flaw in Dragon 328.

It's stretching a few rules, but I can readily see the Obese flaw and the Obese feat combined together (though I wouldn't add the weight multipliers together...that's a bit much).
Why not? Only small creatures can be Obese (flaw). The fattest possible Obese (flaw) gnome is only 98 pounds, which is 22 pounds lighter than the skinniest possible human.

Cwymbran-San

2012-09-14, 09:23 AM

Obesity isn't evil in D&D. What is evil is the praxis of gluttony as a form of spiritual devotion to that particular sin. Deformity(gaunt) also exists like this. That wouldn't be simple anorexia, it would be religious anorexia.

The mechanics for generating height and weight are given, and they encompass pretty most of the variability in people.

Say you're making a male human. First you roll for height, 4'10" + 2d10 in., then you roll the weight, 120 lbs. +(2d4) which is 2d4 * whatever you rolled on the 2d10. That can be as high as 160 extra pounds. A 6'6", 280-pound person is pretty hefty, and certainly obese by even modern standards, but height and weight alone don't tell you much about muscle mass or cardiovascular health. I can imagine a 6'6", 280 lb. person with high Str and high Con, and I can imagine a 6'6", 280 lb. person with low-ish Str and horrible Con.

This.

As an addition, i think a 6'6, 280 pounds human male would make a great linebacker. Or a road block for that matter.
As the quoted posting said, the feat is for those chars who choose to follow a sinful path (and gain advantages from that).

Kansaschaser

2012-09-14, 10:02 AM

Why not? Only small creatures can be Obese (flaw). The fattest possible Obese (flaw) gnome is only 98 pounds, which is 22 pounds lighter than the skinniest possible human.

Thanks for that. Now I have a concept for an Overweight Oriental Gnome Swordsage that uses setting sun maneuvers to knock his opponents to the ground. He wears jet black armor with his weight painted in white on his chest to intimidate his opponents. His name is Bo Ling Bali. :smallcool: