Melee attacks as touch attacks

[LTwerewolf]

If I recall, there's something somewhere that let's you resolve melee attacks in some form as touch attacks, where would I find it?

[Lateral]

...There are lots of things that can do that. Do you want something specific, or just anything at all?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wraithstrike spell, SC and CV
Deep Impact feat, XPH
Eldritch Glaive, DM, limited usefulness
Brilliant Energy weapon, DMG

[Tvtyrant]

Emerald Razor maneuver, Tome of Battle

[lsfreak]

Heartseeker Amulet, 3/day as a swift action, 3000gp. Magic Item Compendium.

[BCOVertigo]

Hey... I don't mean to derail anything, but I saw a tactical feat in ToB that let you make touch attacks that dealt no damage to give yourself a bonus to hit on your next normal attack. (I sort of contributed. Yay?)

This leads me to two questions:
1. Would a weapon that had an effect on hit still apply said effect when the aforementioned touch attack hits?

2. If yes to 1., then is a feat really necessary for this or can you just elect to tap people with your shocking sword if their AC is beyond you? Away from books so if shocking deals damage on damaging an opponent then replace with another ability.

[Cespenar]

1. Yes. A successful touch attack is a successful hit, and triggers stuff with "on a successful hit" causes.

2. I'd assume so, actually, yeah. Funny.

[Andezzar]

The thing is you are normally not allowed to do touch attacks with weapons. So while a hit with a melee touch attack would trigger the elemental damage, you are not allowed to make such a touch attack.

[BCOVertigo]

The thing is you are normally not allowed to do touch attacks with weapons. So while a hit with a melee touch attack would trigger the elemental damage, you are not allowed to make such a touch attack.

I'm of the opinion that you're right.

I'd like to get a firm negative rule on this from somewhere, but it seems like we're just waiting on some special ability (like the tob feat) to give you an excuse to "baby strength" your attacks.

On the bright side, I found a use for that feat! I'll leave now though, don't want to derail.
Iwasneverhere

[TuggyNE]

The thing is you are normally not allowed to do touch attacks with weapons. So while a hit with a melee touch attack would trigger the elemental damage, you are not allowed to make such a touch attack.

What about trip attacks?

[Andezzar]

What about trip attacks?That is a specific exception for some weapons.

Emerald Razor from ToB is not a feat but a maneuver. You can use it only once per encounter unless you refresh your maneuver(s). There is no feat in ToB that makes weapon attacks into touch attacks.

[TuggyNE]

That is a specific exception for some weapons.

My apologies, I was referring specifically to making trip attempts with e.g. a flaming/frost/shock/holy guisarme.

[Andezzar]

My apologies, I was referring specifically to making trip attempts with e.g. a flaming/frost/shock/holy guisarme.This might work, at least I can't think about a rule why it wouldn't.

Let's look at the other special abilities:

Anarchic/Axiomatic/Holy/Unholy may not work as they refer to extra damage. I'm not sure you can get extra damages on an attack that does not do damage normally.

The elemental special abilities should all work as they are worded similarly to Shocking.

Wounding would also work.

[Endelehia]

Find the Gap (SC),works only for the first attack each round

[Lostbutseeking]

The tactical feat is Stormguard Warrior from ToB. One of it's options is to make melee touch attacks, that do no damage, in place of any number of normal attacks to gain +5 to damage rolls per touch attack that hits on your next turn.

[mattie_p]

Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) permits this, there is no reason why being visible should prevent it.


A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location.

Close your eyes and blindfight if necessary?


This might work, at least I can't think about a rule why it wouldn't.

Let's look at the other special abilities:

Anarchic/Axiomatic/Holy/Unholy may not work as they refer to extra damage. I'm not sure you can get extra damages on an attack that does not do damage normally.

The elemental special abilities should all work as they are worded similarly to Shocking.

Wounding would also work.

Shocking, Frost, Flame all specify extra damage as well. Wounding specifies simply hitting a creature and should work fine.

[Andezzar]

Woops, I really don't know how I missed the extra in all four of them.

The thing is, trip attempts and some other touch attacks simply don't mention an order to roll damage, the groping for an invisible creature and Stormguard Warrior explicitly state that the attack does no damage. If that is the case, extra damage, whether it is classified as extra or not should not apply, as this would contradict the rule for no damage.

[Telonius]

The Unavoidable Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#unavoidableStrike) (SRD) feat lets you expend psionic focus to resolve an unarmed strike as a touch attack.

The Stormguard Warrior feat (from ToB) Combat Rhythm lets you make melee touch attacks one round (dealing no damage) in return for bonus to damage the next round.

[LTwerewolf]

Wraithstrike should work. The reason I ask is because our group is relatively low op, and tends to go for the "bash it til it's dead" method. Our wizards like blasting, and our cleric spends his time buffing and triage. Our dm gives monsters very high ac/flatfooted ac, but very low (as in 8-10) touch ac. I want to give our fighter a bit more of a chance to do something more than get hit.

Just need to make an item that gives it on swift action command and make it affordable (we're lvl 10).

[prufock]

The skill trick Spot the Weak Point lets you do one per encounter (more if you go into Battle/Magical/Uncanny Trickster).

[Dusk Eclipse]

A wand of wraitshtrike is 1500 GP and will last for 50 rounds of combat.

[LTwerewolf]

A wand of wraitshtrike is 1500 GP and will last for 50 rounds of combat.

But that would then require 2 rounds to make an attack.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A per Rules Compendium activating a Wand is the same type of action as the spell.

[LTwerewolf]

My mistake, thank you.

[Curmudgeon]

2. If yes to 1., then is a feat really necessary for this or can you just elect to tap people with your shocking sword if their AC is beyond you? Away from books so if shocking deals damage on damaging an opponent then replace with another ability.

Shock

Upon command, a shock weapon is sheathed in crackling electricity. The electricity does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A shock weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of electricity damage on a successful hit. As far as I know, all such magic weapon enhancements deal extra damage like this. You can't ever have extra damage if you do no damage to start with.

[Kholai]

As far as I know, all such magic weapon enhancements deal extra damage like this. You can't ever have extra damage if you do no damage to start with.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm

Mucking around with this as a Gish (admittedly unarmed unless you channel spells through your weapon somehow), this has some interesting applications.

Take a level 1 Sorcerer, Abjurant Champion and complicated mess of other initiator classes and prestige classes to get, ideally, 16+ BAB.... And Practiced Spellcaster, for the full 20 CL. Use a +5 Gauntlet, because that means you save a feat and can still apply the touch attacks.

Chill Touch, next turn Avalanche of Blades with Stormguard Warrior. Every time you touch your target they take 1D6 negative energy damage and lose 1 point of Strength. Hit a full twenty times and that's 20D6 damage with no save (save is only on the Str loss), and potentially leaving them Helpless (which doesn't stop AoB by RAW, since they're not on -1 Health, but the inability to move gives a nice boost to your to-hit chance).

Granted you'll probably critical fumble before then, but against a high threat, low AC target like an Old Red Dragon, making like E Honda gives damage, strength damage, and +5 damage next turn per hit you made this turn, which you can always use with an Emerald Razor for an almost guaranteed Massive Damage check (and, incidentally, can be with your Gauntlet again for yet another +1D6 from Chill Touch).

[Andezzar]

Use a +5 Gauntlet, because that means you save a feat and can still apply the touch attacks.I'm not sure which feat you are trying to save. If it is improved unarmed strike, the gauntlets won't help. You are still considered unarmed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet), What you are looking for is the spiked gauntlet, but then I don't see where the difference is between being armed with a spiked gauntlet and with a held weapon. Without some way to channel the spell thorugh a weapon the gauntlets will prevent you from using chill touch.


Chill Touch, next turn Avalanche of Blades with Stormguard Warrior. Every time you touch your target they take 1D6 negative energy damage and lose 1 point of Strength. Hit a full twenty times and that's 20D6 damage with no save (save is only on the Str loss), and potentially leaving them Helpless (which doesn't stop AoB by RAW, since they're not on -1 Health, but the inability to move gives a nice boost to your to-hit chance).I don't know how you assume to hit on all 20 attacks. It's -4 for each attack after the first, so -80 for the last one. You don't even get an extra chance at the first attack through haste. Strength or lack thereof only affects movement if the creature is carrying gear.

[BCOVertigo]

Every time you touch your target they take 1D6 negative energy damage and lose 1 point of Strength.

Would the caveat against damage also kill the ability damage? I'm inclined to say so since it doesn't specify and most other ambiguous instances of 'damage' seem to treat them interchangeably.

[Piggy Knowles]

I made a similar thread on the old BG boards, collecting all the ways one could make full attacks as touch attacks. Here is what I had before the boards died... I know there's a fair bit I can add to it:

SPELLS:

Allows a regular set of attacks to be treated as touch attacks:
Wraithstrike (Wizard 2, Assassin 3) - SpC
Brilliant Blade (Cleric 7, Druid 7, Wizard 6) - SpC
- Gives one weapon the Brilliant Energy enhancement - see notes under "Items"
Brilliant Aura (Cleric 8, Druid 8, Wizard 7) - SpC
- Gives multiple weapons the Brilliant Energy enhancement - see notes under "Items"

Creates a "weapon" that only requires a touch attack to hit:
Belker Claws (Wizard 2) - SpC
Blade of Pain and Fear (Wizard 3, Cleric 3, Assassin 2, Blackguard 2) - SpC
Flame Blade (Druid 2, Shugenja 2) - PHB/SRD
Flame Dagger (Wizard 2) - SpC
Flame Whips (Wizard 4) - SpC
Fire Shuriken (Wu-Jen 2, Assassin 2) - SpC
Ice Axe (Cleric 3) - SpC
Moon Blade (Moon domain 3) - SpC
Spectral Weapon (Bard 4, Wizard 3, Assassin 3) - SpC

Gives a multi-use touch attack:
Chill Touch (Wizard 1) - PHB/SRD
Corrosive Grasp (Wizard 1) - SpC
Darkfire (Cleric 3) - SpC
Produce Flame (Druid 1, Shugenja 2, Fire Domain 2) - PHB/SRD
Scalding Touch (Wizard 7) - MoE
Storm Touch (Wizard 5) - MoE

POWERS:

Gives a multi-use touch attack:
Hammer (Psion 1, PsyWar 1) - XPH

INVOCATIONS:

Eldritch Glaive (Warlock Least Blast Shape) - DrM
- Technically, a full round action rather than a full attack, which according to the Sage means that this cannot be combined with anything that requires an attack action. However, it does give iterative attacks.

CLASS ABILITIES:

Fire Lash (Pyrokineticist 1) - XPH/SRD
Weak Spot (Master Thrower 5) - CWar

ITEMS:

Brilliant Energy weapon enhancement (+4 bonus) - PHB/SRD
- Allows weapons to ignore nonliving material. This is effectively the same as making the attack a touch attack for many opponents. However, this does not ignore natural armor.
Alchemical items (Acid, Alchemist's Fire, etc.) can be thrown, and benefit from a full attack - PHB/SRD

[Curmudgeon]

Brilliant Energy weapon enhancement (+4 bonus) - PHB/SRD
- Allows weapons to ignore nonliving material. This is effectively the same as making the attack a touch attack for many opponents. However, this does not ignore natural armor.
No, this really isn't "effectively the same", and you can't determine whether Brilliant Energy would be effective against particular opponents except by trying it. Bracers of Armor, Robe of the Archmagi, or any other Body or Arms slot items with armor enhancements (see Magic Item Compendium, page 234) will still boost AC without any physical armor. These can be worn in addition to normal armor, and you won't be able to tell whether the AC bonus is primarily from the armor or another item. (You could have spiffy armor and wear Bracers of Armor to get additional enhancements like Death Ward at a lower price. Or your robe could provide your primary AC bonus, and your armor is worn because it's made of a special material which provides fire or sonic resistance.) The Shield or Deflect (Player's Handbook II) spells will give a shield bonus without any physical shield. Brilliant Energy also does nothing against fortification, regardless of whether that's tied to physical armor. (Though you can, and should, get a Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) for fortification independent of armor anyway. Not only does it forestall arguments on the subject, it's also cheaper than as an armor enhancement.) Some special armors and shields are also made of living material (like Livewood), and again Brilliant Energy will have no effect.