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Xaragos
2012-09-14, 09:11 AM
I just wanted to get some clarification on the knockback feat as it pertains to weapons.

Knockback

( Races of Stone, p. 142)

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush
First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

The questions are:
1. Can you execute a Knockback with a reach weapon?
2. If so, do you have to be adjacent to the enemy since it triggers a bull rush and per the definition, you must move "into the defender's space"

This has some mechanical issues here because if you have to be adjacent, then reach weapons like halberds and the like that cant attack adjacent characters cannot be used for knockback. I appreciate the help.

EDIT: I removed the Knockback feat due to concerns about the ability to post that info here. But the Bull Rush information is found in the SRD, so...hopefully that isn't an issue. If it is...I can remove that as well.

JBento
2012-09-14, 09:31 AM
First: I don't think you can post those things, unfortunately. They're not OGL and doing so may be a breach of copyright (possibly; I don't have a law degree).

Second: Note that Knockback specifically states that you don't move with your opponent. Yes, you can KB with a reach weapon, and you stay put (you stay put while KB'ing with any weapon).

Xaragos
2012-09-14, 10:25 AM
First: I don't think you can post those things, unfortunately. They're not OGL and doing so may be a breach of copyright (possibly; I don't have a law degree).

Second: Note that Knockback specifically states that you don't move with your opponent. Yes, you can KB with a reach weapon, and you stay put (you stay put while KB'ing with any weapon).

I agree. But the DM counter argument, that I have been presented with, is that in order to actually execute the free Bull Rush..."First, you move into the defender’s space" and after opposing str rolls Knockback only absolves you of the following: "If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit."

Andreaz
2012-09-14, 10:58 AM
The bull rush is not tied to a weapon, so a reach weapon is useless for that.
Now if you have reach before applying any weapon, it should be fine.

LanSlyde
2012-09-14, 11:09 AM
I agree. But the DM counter argument, that I have been presented with, is that in order to actually execute the free Bull Rush..."First, you move into the defender’s space" and after opposing str rolls Knockback only absolves you of the following: "If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit."

Your DM is being silly then. Knock back implies that your not actually using a bull rush to push back your target so much as using the force behind your attack to blow them away from you through the momentum of your swing.

Make a mental image out of it, you have to take a swing at your target with Power Attack, if you hit, you get a free BR attempt. The fact that you deal damage along with the BR shows that your not using your own body to push the target back. Your letting the momentum of your swing bast him away from you. Hell the fact that you even get a bonus using a two-hander should solidify what I just said. |-_-|

If he's still being silly and insists on ruling like that. Cry until he lets you retrain that feat and then throw Brutal Surge on your weapon.

LanSlyde
2012-09-14, 11:11 AM
The bull rush is not tied to a weapon, so a reach weapon is useless for that.
Now if you have reach before applying any weapon, it should be fine.

A standard BR isn't tied to a weapon, but look at the feat, you are clearly using the power behind your attack to knock back your opponent. So in this case yes, yes the BR is tired to the weapon.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2012-09-14, 11:34 AM
The feat does not specify that it excludes any type of weapon at all, so one of two things happens:
1. You don't move at all when using Knock-Back, the weapon itself moving into the opponent's space is what knocks them back, not your character's body. This is in accordance with the feat's flavor text and is solid RAI.
OR
2. You move into your opponent's space, regardless of distance, in accordance with both what the feat grants you and your DM's ruling. "...you can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe you hit..." That means you get to do everything involved with making a bull rush attempt for free, regardless of what other actions you're taking that turn, because free doesn't cost you any actions. This would be hilarious with a Bloodstorm Blade.

LanSlyde
2012-09-14, 11:37 AM
You move into your opponent's space, regardless of distance, in accordance with both what the feat grants you and your DM's ruling. "...you can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe you hit..." That means you get to do everything involved with making a bull rush attempt for free, regardless of what other actions you're taking that turn, because free doesn't cost you any actions. This would be hilarious with a Bloodstorm Blade.

... YES! If your DM rules like this become a Bloodstorm Blade, warp across the battlefield! You must do this!

IthroZada
2012-09-14, 11:47 AM
... YES! If your DM rules like this become a Bloodstorm Blade, warp across the battlefield! You must do this!

As a DM, I think I'd have to allow this just for the cool factor. I might make the whole thing a supernatural or extraordinary effect (depending on how they wanted to fluff it), but it'd be interesting to see.

Frosty
2012-09-14, 12:49 PM
Hmm, if you add the Dungeoncrasher ACF to this...

LanSlyde
2012-09-14, 02:09 PM
Hmm, if you add the Dungeoncrasher ACF to this...

Yeah, I think we have come up with some viable shenanigans if thats how the DM is going to rule.
:smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2012-09-14, 02:58 PM
Don't forget, Whirling Blade its a melee attack. You can PA with it, therefore you can Knockback with it. Up to 60' teleports, 120' with Enlarge Spell. Take that, Lightning Leap!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2012-09-14, 03:34 PM
Don't forget, Whirling Blade its a melee attack. You can PA with it, therefore you can Knockback with it. Up to 60' teleports, 120' with Enlarge Spell. Take that, Lightning Leap!

Don't forget, you get to Knock-Back every time you hit, so you throw your weapon and then follow it to each opponent, or rather you throw it and then appear next to each opponent as it strikes them. Add on Sculpt Spell and call it Omnislash.

Keld Denar
2012-09-14, 04:06 PM
Omnislash was exactly what I was thinking. JUGERNAUGHT!

Hiro Protagonest
2012-09-14, 04:22 PM
This is why WotC should just cut D&D's tenuous ties with fantasy and admit that it's a shonen RPG (superhero ups the power level more slowly).

Person_Man
2012-09-14, 07:06 PM
Have you seen Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) or the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646)?

Xaragos
2012-09-17, 07:10 AM
Have you seen Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) or the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646)?

Wow both of those are pretty awesome. And Bloodstorm blade...that would be insane with the free movement variant. ACF Dungeoncrasher...nice synergy. Shocktrooper a nice feat too.

I wonder, since if you power attack in a round, that stays with you until the next round. Does that mean if someone was coming at you, your AoO could then knock that guy back?