Useful ways to improve our friend the Tarrasque without homebrew [3.5]

[TuggyNE]

Most of us know that Big T has serious weak points and lacks a number of critical abilities to be a decent challenge for his CR. There've been some good homebrews over the years to fix this, but is it possible to improve the Tarrasque-meister with nothing but stock templates, feats, and skills?

Using nothing but SRD, I'm thinking Paragon Half-White Dragon — wings!, greatly improved (touch) AC, an even larger HP buffer, immunity to shivering touch, and some miscellaneous spell-likes of varying utility. (Half-Fiend and Pseudonatural are also decent once you have the basics down, but not as efficient.)

If there's some handy way to get scintillating scales, that would shore up another defense.

Post more ideas and ways of improving efficiency, without messing up the flavor of the Tarrasque!


(Thread inspired by derail at Mage Killer Killers and following, in Homebrew.)

[ryu]

Make big T a player character la race with full wealth by level and ALL that implies. Because why not?

[metabolicjosh]

Paragon? Warbeast? Ring of firewall, Wand of Footsteps of the Divine, Rod of Persist metamagic? UMD ranks...

[Quietus]

I seem to remember some feat-based shenaniganery giving it several Incarnum-based soul binding abilities, which allowed it to overcome some of its more obvious shortcomings. Can't remember where, though.

[TuggyNE]

Make big T a player character la race with full wealth by level and ALL that implies. Because why not?

RHD is too high to do anything.

Unless you merely mean "give T full PC-style gear", which is a different matter.


Paragon? Warbeast? Ring of firewall, Wand of Footsteps of the Divine, Rod of Persist metamagic? UMD ranks...

Warbeast could work, I guess. (Footsteps of the Divine no longer works well with Persist, if you're thinking of the old Chuck E. Cheese build.) UMD is ... a little dubious, fluff-wise, but I suppose devoting nearly all 51 skill points to it could work. (T is a monster, a barely-intelligent monster, not like an Aboleth or even a Troll.)

Edit:

I seem to remember some feat-based shenaniganery giving it several Incarnum-based soul binding abilities, which allowed it to overcome some of its more obvious shortcomings. Can't remember where, though.

Right, I vaguely recall that too. I don't know MoI hardly at all though.

[Tvtyrant]

Using the unassociated levels rule, you could make it a full caster or Artificer coated in contingencies.

[metabolicjosh]

Using the unassociated levels rule, you could make it a full caster or Artificer coated in contingencies.

It doesn't have the stats to cast spells...
But UMD work perfectly

[Tvtyrant]

It doesn't have the stats to cast spells...
But UMD work perfectly

It has 14 charisma! It would only need one +5 item to use full sorc casting!

But yeah, Artificer would be pretty hilarious.

[gorfnab]

Make big T a player character la race with full wealth by level and ALL that implies. Because why not?
How about this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307)

[toapat]

Paragon Pseudonatural Half-White/Silver Dragon

This is the more sugested version, as it gets the Tarrasque 120'/Round run and fly speeds.

More templates for helping him out:

Half Celestial and Half Fiend: Combined for Hilarity. +a small bit to attributes is nice also.

Ghost: Because its mean to sick an enemy who is already highly spell resistant, immune to magic missiles, and then make them dodge every other spell.

oh, and make it have 20 Paladin Mystic Fire Knight Levels. With Underdark Knight.

you know, because it is completely fair to kill the entire party with a Tarrasque that can just pop up under you

[LordErebus12]

you are safe no where

http://i.imgur.com/e3334.jpg
http://myonseightstring.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/underwater-tarrasque.jpg

[kardar233]

I like the abilities that monster class gives.

I'm actually looking into this for future reference as I've had this persistent idea of running an Elder Evil-type campaign off the Pathfinder stories of Rovagug, and wanted a really badass Tarrasque as a final boss.

[TuggyNE]

Ghost: Because its mean to sick an enemy who is already highly spell resistant, immune to magic missiles, and then make them dodge every other spell.

I forgot about Ghost, actually. It would indeed be amusing. Unfortunately, it trashes the T's excellent natural armor, Con score, and worst of all it loses its incomparable regeneration. I don't think that'll synergize real well.

[Tvtyrant]

you are safe no where

http://i.imgur.com/e3334.jpg
http://myonseightstring.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/underwater-tarrasque.jpg

Hide your kids, hide your wives. Tarrasque is snapping up all the folks in here.

[lsfreak]

You want this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000) thread.

[TuggyNE]

You want this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000) thread.

Indeed! Although this thread is more about the template side of things, the feats are certainly relevant, and eventually re-allocating skill points too.

[Venger]

its primary (but by no means only) shortcomings is its lack of immunity to ability drain, and its inability to fly. an allip can down mr T in a matter of rounds.

if you want to make it a real pain, as far as class levels go, either bone knight 7 or pale master 7 both give immunity to nonlethal damage. in combination with regeneration, this can at least make him immune to HP damage (if he's fighting with uberchargers and mailmen)

[toapat]

I forgot about Ghost, actually. It would indeed be amusing. Unfortunately, it trashes the T's excellent natural armor, Con score, and worst of all it loses its incomparable regeneration. I don't think that'll synergize real well.

well, can you think of any other significant and convenient way to remove his need for Air, Water, Food, and Sleep, as well as granting him 50% evasion against everything else?

[awa]

first off in practice the knowledge check to find out the trasques weakness is almost impossible to make with out some heavy cheese.
it has has a ton of hit dice so the base dc is super high (58) but even if you hit that dc you only gain a little bit of knowledge for every 5 pnts you gain a little bit more. since its weakness is actually just not being immune to everything you will only discover it after you have learned every thing else so your actually looking at check with a dc of over a 100.

now that out of the way strong heart vest grants protection from ability drain when bound to the waist chakra. other incarnium binds grant air walking.
vow of poverty puts its defenses through the roof. and you can do all that just by dropping toughness (you'll even end up with more hp after the con increases)
the vow also gives us true sight and freedom of movement.

im certain their are some nifty epic feats as well
likely the most broken would be epic leadership an epic wizard as a cohort make every thing unfair

[TuggyNE]

if you want to make it a real pain, as far as class levels go, either bone knight 7 or pale master 7 both give immunity to nonlethal damage. in combination with regeneration, this can at least make him immune to HP damage (if he's fighting with uberchargers and mailmen)

Class levels on a barely-sentient monster seem ... really weird to me, although it's certainly RAW legal. I've edited the OP to note that stuff that changes the basic flavor of the T-ster is probably out.


well, can you think of any other significant and convenient way to remove his need for Air, Water, Food, and Sleep, as well as granting him 50% evasion against everything else?

Air, and perhaps water and food and sleep, could be removed with certain templates (anything that grants Air subtype, for example). However, I don't know precisely.


now that out of the way strong heart vest grants protection from ability drain when bound to the waist chakra. other incarnium binds grant air walking.

Excellent, yes.


vow of poverty puts its defenses through the roof. and you can do all that just by dropping toughness (you'll even end up with more hp after the con increases)
the vow also gives us true sight and freedom of movement.

How does a TN creature qualify for an Exalted feat? (It doesn't.)


im certain their are some nifty epic feats as well
likely the most broken would be epic leadership an epic wizard as a cohort make every thing unfair

Well, there's not much point for Big T to cart a humanoid cohort around, now is there? So epic leadership probably wouldn't work too well.

Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Epic Speed, Superior Initiative, and perhaps Epic Will, Improved Spell Resistance, and Legendary Leaper (after Jump optimization). Might be some others, but those stood out to me (with more effort, it's probably possible to deflect/reflect arrows and so on, which would be amusing but not terribly important).

[Jeff the Green]

How does a TN creature qualify for an Exalted feat? (It doesn't.)

By becoming NG? It's not an animal and it's not mindless, so it can certainly change alignments. There are even rules in BoED for forcibly changing a creature's alignment to Good by talking to it; creatures that are "always" something get a +4 bonus on their Will save to resist, but neutral creatures also take a -2 penalty.

If it's really that big of a sticking point, throw on the Celestial template.

[TuggyNE]

By becoming NG? It's not an animal and it's not mindless, so it can certainly change alignments. There are even rules in BoED for forcibly changing a creature's alignment to Good by talking to it; creatures that are "always" something get a +4 bonus on their Will save to resist, but neutral creatures also take a -2 penalty.

If it's really that big of a sticking point, throw on the Celestial template.

Fair enough.

[Runestar]

Why not just give him spellcaster support? If we play it such that a cabal of evil and misguided wizards want to use it as a doomsday weapon of sorts, they may likely hang around it and/or support it with buffs.

[toapat]

Fair enough.

so:

Paragon Pseudonatrual Half-White/silver Dragon Half-Celestial Ghost Tarrasque who has taken a vow of poverty, replacing all remaining ranks of Toughness with Improved Toughness

so, how do we get will saves? how do we restore his Fort save after the massive hit that his loss of Con would be?

[Man on Fire]

How about templates? Monster of Legend (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/monsterlegend.shtml) or Shadow Creature (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/shadowcreature.shtml) or even both?

[toapat]

How about templates? Monster of Legend (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/monsterlegend.shtml) or Shadow Creature (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/shadowcreature.shtml) or even both?

So Paragon Pseudonatural Monster of Legend (Cold type, Immune to Acid and Mind Effecting) half Blue/Bronze Dragon Half-Celestial Ghost Tarrasque, Subbing Toughness x6 for Improved Multiattack, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Shock Trooper, whatever makes ghosts not suffer their own 50% miss chance, and Improved toughness.

Have fun, hes only really vulnerable to Bladebarrier.

Holy Word with CL 48, 1/day. everything dies wait, the Tarrasque is larger then the AoE of the spell, lame

is there a way to key fort saves off of not-constitution?

[Telonius]

There was a very old thread about this a few years ago (not sure if it survived the Great Purge, and google-fu is failing me). But iirc it stacked templates on it something like toapat mentioned.

In the old version, I think the only thing it ended up being vulnerable to was a Warlock's Vitriolic Blast.

[toapat]

There was a very old thread about this a few years ago (not sure if it survived the Great Purge, and google-fu is failing me). But iirc it stacked templates on it something like toapat mentioned.

In the old version, I think the only thing it ended up being vulnerable to was a Warlock's Vitriolic Blast.

Here is the thing, we arent relying on Munchkinry like typical Invincible builds do (Multiheaded Lernean Half Golem does not make you invulnerable despite only being killable through vorpal neck blows.)

anyway, i made a mistake, the proper choice of Half-Dragon template is Amythyst Dragon, as that version grants you Immunity to Force damage. The only problem is that Force is opposite Light damage. Immunity to Electric and Sonic should be found elsewhere, as we can not afford to get 3 Immunities from Monster of Legend


Speaking of which, Yes, we are adding Multiheaded and shadow to the beast, +58 HD when you gain 24 per level, and 29 more bite attacks, is very nice. I know we get a pretty good alternate form from Pseudonatural, but really, that is just a template for the raw brutality of being able to take down anything.

Adding shadow leads to the problem that he now needs a darkness SLA

this brings his SR upto 530


going to start statting him out in a new post.

[nedz]

The most fun I had with a Tarrasque was to steal an idea from Douglas Adams and use a Tarrasque from another prime material, which differed from the current one only in terms of scale. "You see a large beetle like creature in the corridor ahead of you".:smallcool:

Another option would be to Gestalt it. Ideally you would need some casting class which didn't depend too much on stats. Something like Tarrasque//Warlock X would be funny. A flying invisible Tarrasque which shoots lasers.:smallcool:

[Eldariel]

Indeed! Although this thread is more about the template side of things, the feats are certainly relevant, and eventually re-allocating skill points too.

Those really cover quite a bit already. Well, the basics anyways. Add like pseudonatural half-dragon and he's a threat to anything but a spellcaster. Of course, without actually turning him into a spellcaster he'll never be a threat to one no matter how much you buff his numbers tho.

Ghost definitely seems like the wrong route; it's not in line with the spirit of Big T and loses all its natural advantages. Besides, feats can gain similar benefits anyways and its inherent regeneration already covers for the immortality bit that's the biggest draw of Ghost-template.

[TuggyNE]

Why not just give him spellcaster support? If we play it such that a cabal of evil and misguided wizards want to use it as a doomsday weapon of sorts, they may likely hang around it and/or support it with buffs.

That's possible, but T should ideally be usable even without that (i.e. as a glorified natural disaster).

However, for the "nuclear weapon" approach, I wonder if Voidmind works....


Those really cover quite a bit already. Well, the basics anyways. Add like pseudonatural half-dragon and he's a threat to anything but a spellcaster. Of course, without actually turning him into a spellcaster he'll never be a threat to one no matter how much you buff his numbers tho.

As long as he requires some actual effort/risk (rather than just staying out of range and sniping until he goes down), I'm fine.


Ghost definitely seems like the wrong route; it's not in line with the spirit of Big T and loses all its natural advantages. Besides, feats can gain similar benefits anyways and its inherent regeneration already covers for the immortality bit that's the biggest draw of Ghost-template.

Strongly agreed. Big T is a living monster, not the ghost of a past horror.

[toapat]

Strongly agreed. Big T is a living monster, not the ghost of a past horror.

We are not looking for Incorporal from ghost, Ghost is just the only way i know of to get Incorporal. considering he will have over 50 con before ghost, Ghost is causing more problems then it is solving with the Auto Soul-Sealing and 50% Incorporal on top of 50% concealment

honestly, id rather not have Mutliheaded either (makes T less epic)

[Jack_Simth]

We are not looking for Incorporal from ghost, Ghost is just the only way i know of to get Incorporal. considering he will have over 50 con before ghost, Ghost is causing more problems then it is solving with the Auto Soul-Sealing and 50% Incorporal on top of 50% concealment

honestly, id rather not have Mutliheaded either (makes T less epic)
There's the Incorporeal template (+2 LA) in Savage Species, and there's the... what was it, Vivacious Creature template in ... was it The Planar Handbook or The Manual of the Planes? I always get those two confused.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That's possible, but T should ideally be usable even without that (i.e. as a glorified natural disaster).

However, for the "nuclear weapon" approach, I wonder if Voidmind works....



As long as he requires some actual effort/risk (rather than just staying out of range and sniping until he goes down), I'm fine.



Strongly agreed. Big T is a living monster, not the ghost of a past horror.

Beware of the temptations of Voidmind, that ways lies madness and Ikea...

[TuggyNE]

Beware of the temptations of Voidmind, that ways lies madness and Ikea...

I am aware :smalltongue: which is why I was referring to it only in the context of campaign-dependent further modifications beyond the baseline. I suppose I could have been clearer, though.

[toapat]

I am aware :smalltongue: which is why I was referring to it only in the context of campaign-dependent further modifications beyond the baseline. I suppose I could have been clearer, though.

we dont want that, expecially because it harms T's rather impressive Charisma (Which is now our Natural Armor)

in other news: Ghost is out, All hail Vivacious template.

Listing:

Base: Tarrasque

Templates:
Pseudonatural (OMGWTFBBQ spell resist, Double speed, Alternate Form, Maximized HD)
Paragon (+15 all attributes, +12 HP/HD, Triple speed)
Half-Amethyst Dragon (Force Damage immunity, Force Fireball breath, D12 HD)
Half-Celestial (Fly Speed, access to Vow of Poverty)
Shadow Creature (easy Concealment, Half again speed)(we need to get an SLA for any darkness spell.)
Monster of Legend (Awesome poison, Powerful guardian effects, Cold, Acid, Mind effecting immunity)
Vivacious Creature (Incorporal, MOAR HEALZ)

New Combat Tecniques:
Ubercharger
Vow of Poverty
Dual Wield Spiked Chains

[ryu]

Question: If the base homebrew class were to eat an item to enchant some of its scales would that violate vow of poverty? If so does that vow apply to magical tats and other such things? Imagine everything Toapat brought out plus all you can do with wealth by level mancy.

[toapat]

Question: If the base homebrew class were to eat an item to enchant some of its scales would that violate vow of poverty? If so does that vow apply to magical tats and other such things? Imagine everything Toapat brought out plus all you can do with wealth by level mancy.

He cant actually use Create Magical Tattoo.

on the other hand, he can still have his DW spiked chains, which deal 6d6+BBQ damage at colossal, as compared to his claws, which deal 2d8+BBW damage

[ryu]

And eating magical items to make his scales magic? Do enchanted scales count as wealth breaking the rule or do all such enchantments not matter?

[Jeff the Green]

How is he wielding spiked chains with VoP?

However, AFAICR, he can have grafts and symbionts. Do we have him immune to Mind-Affecting yet?

[toapat]

And eating magical items to make his scales magic? Do enchanted scales count as wealth breaking the rule or do all such enchantments not matter?

If Create Magical Tattoo can be used on someone who doesnt have it, then yes, he could have his HD equivalent of NPC WBL.


How is he wielding spiked chains with VoP?

However, AFAICR, he can have grafts and symbionts. Do we have him immune to Mind-Affecting yet?

non-magical ones, its only 100gp

yes, we have him immune to mind affecting, that is why we have Monster of Legend (getting plenty of immunity together). He is Lawful good

[Jeff the Green]

non-magical ones, its only 100gp

VoP additionally restricts you to simple weapons.

[toapat]

VoP additionally restricts you to simple weapons.

it is a Simple weapon. it just happens to require specific training.

on the other hand, this guy is basically a god, so i say screw the rules, he gets gigantic area control

[Jeff the Green]

it is a Simple weapon. it just happens to require specific training.

on the other hand, this guy is basically a god, so i say screw the rules, he gets gigantic area control

:smallannoyed: If we're going to say that, we don't need Monster of Legend, we can just say he's immune to mind affecting.

I'm going to go through grafts and symbionts. BRB.

Edit: Is incorporeal really worth losing at least 29 points of AC and that beautiful Strength score?

[ryu]

You do realize that with npc wealth by level and the inevitable fanatical doom cult we can just feed him powerful magical items to enchant the scales and double up using grafts and tats right? Vow of poverty with actually effective wbl.:smallamused:

[toapat]

You do realize that with npc wealth by level and the inevitable fanatical doom cult we can just feed him powerful magical items to enchant the scales and double up using grafts and tats right? Vow of poverty with actually effective wbl.:smallamused:

at that point we might as well be giving him Leadership and Epic leadership. which is already off limits, we want a Tarrasque, not the God-Emperor of the Prime Material Disk

edit: incorporal is awesome, but the loss of over 70 str is not

[vasharanpaladin]

I remember seeing one fix that made him a natural martial adept... :smallfrown:

[toapat]

I remember seeing one fix that made him a natural martial adept... :smallfrown:

i have that bookmarked, its cool, but we are doing this without homebrew

[vasharanpaladin]

i have that bookmarked, its cool, but we are doing this without homebrew

DM fiat happens to be in accordance with the rules. :smallwink:

And in any case, giving him practically anything other than an alteration of feats would be tantamount to homebrew anyway. Hell, I'd suggest, if not making it a natural initiator, take a leaf out of 4e's book and give him an aura that forces people to stay on the damn ground. Actually, I'd do both anyway, but I'm a nasty little monkey when it comes to my boss monsters. :smallcool:

[Eldariel]

Really, incorporeal is of little value against the types of foes that can truly threaten Big T anyways; it's trivial for magi or warriors alike to hit incorporeals at that point for a small investment. As long as he can damage incorporeals himself, it's fine.

The thing he most needs is a reliable ranged attack or a lot more mobility and action economy abuse capability. And ways to penetrate magic defenses; some way to cast Disjunction or project a massive AMF would be a start.

[TuggyNE]

Because I don't have access to most of these books, I'd appreciate a quick summary of the advantages (and disadvantages, if applicable) of the various suggested templates and feats bandied about. Just one line each would be fine.


And in any case, giving him practically anything other than an alteration of feats would be tantamount to homebrew anyway. Hell, I'd suggest, if not making it a natural initiator, take a leaf out of 4e's book and give him an aura that forces people to stay on the damn ground. Actually, I'd do both anyway, but I'm a nasty little monkey when it comes to my boss monsters. :smallcool:

For the purpose of this thread, applying templates, feats, and skills in RAW-legal ways is not considered homebrew. Changing restrictions on any of those things, changing the Tarrasque's monster listing directly, or adding in any outside support would be homebrew, because those are not standard ways of advancing monsters, or are campaign-specific, or both.

I did like the Unhewn Dragon initiator version a lot, but I want to see what can be done without homebrew.


The thing he most needs is a reliable ranged attack or a lot more mobility and action economy abuse capability. And ways to penetrate magic defenses; some way to cast Disjunction or project a massive AMF would be a start.


Poking around in the templates we've already got, the linked Monster of Legend disturbs me greatly. Large ability score boosts, wide-ranging immunities, and impressive special attacks and special qualities ... for +2 CR? Who thought that was funny?

Anyway, the various speed and flight boosts so far improve things a good bit, but some means of acquiring greater dispel magic or similar would be great.


it is a Simple weapon. it just happens to require specific training.

That's not even vaguely the meaning of "simple weapon"; no exotic weapon, by definition, is simple, because it requires a different type of proficiency feat. So no, pretty sure that's out. (Also... weapons in general seem really bizarre on him.)


You do realize that with npc wealth by level and the inevitable fanatical doom cult we can just feed him powerful magical items to enchant the scales and double up using grafts and tats right? Vow of poverty with actually effective wbl.:smallamused:

We aren't using that homebrew in this thread, so it's irrelevant.

[Eldariel]

Anyway, the various speed and flight boosts so far improve things a good bit, but some means of acquiring greater dispel magic or similar would be great.

For an epic beast, GDM is all but useless. It can disable items but spellcasters' spells on level 20 are already outside GDM's maximum result without heavy unrelated bonuses so something like Disjunction would be preferable.

[Blue1005]

Most of us know that Big T has serious weak points and lacks a number of critical abilities to be a decent challenge for his CR. There've been some good homebrews over the years to fix this, but is it possible to improve the Tarrasque-meister with nothing but stock templates, feats, and skills?

Using nothing but SRD, I'm thinking Paragon Half-White Dragon — wings!, greatly improved (touch) AC, an even larger HP buffer, immunity to shivering touch, and some miscellaneous spell-likes of varying utility. (Half-Fiend and Pseudonatural are also decent once you have the basics down, but not as efficient.)

If there's some handy way to get scintillating scales, that would shore up another defense.

Post more ideas and ways of improving efficiency, without messing up the flavor of the Tarrasque!


(Thread inspired by derail at Mage Killer Killers and following, in Homebrew.)



Granted, I have yet to be in a home game that has lasted long enough to face this awesome creature. But when i look at him in the MM i do not think he is by any means underpowered. Am i missing something?

[TuggyNE]

For an epic beast, GDM is all but useless. It can disable items but spellcasters' spells on level 20 are already outside GDM's maximum result without heavy unrelated bonuses so something like Disjunction would be preferable.

I assume you mean "reasonably optimized spellcasters" here, because the most baseline of casters will have a mere DC 31 versus GDM's +20. Still, point more or less taken; I just hate to toss around disjunctions without good reason, as they're so ferociously destructive.

Then again, "ferociously destructive" is basically the entire point.


Granted, I have yet to be in a home game that has lasted long enough to face this awesome creature. But when i look at him in the MM i do not think he is by any means underpowered. Am i missing something?

Yes. You are missing flight, invisibility, xorn movement, teleportation, ranged touch attacks that aren't rays, ability drain, assay spell resistance, true casting, mind-affecting effects, illusions in general, charging, walls, and a number of other things that high-level characters will have (especially spellcasters). That's at least half a dozen ways of neutralizing Big T's danger to the party, and there are quite a few ways to deal enough damage to put him under for more than long enough, or shift him to another plane, or ....

Initially, sure, the Tarrasque looks great and intimidating; it's only when you look at it closely that you see all the things it lacks answers for.

[Silus]

Pseudonatural

Why not just go all the way with Half-Farspawn?

[ThiagoMartell]

DM fiat happens to be in accordance with the rules. :smallwink:

And in any case, giving him practically anything other than an alteration of feats would be tantamount to homebrew anyway. Hell, I'd suggest, if not making it a natural initiator, take a leaf out of 4e's book and give him an aura that forces people to stay on the damn ground. Actually, I'd do both anyway, but I'm a nasty little monkey when it comes to my boss monsters. :smallcool:

This, so much this. Changing the feats is pretty much all it needs to be a threat anyway.

[Blue1005]

I assume you mean "reasonably optimized spellcasters" here, because the most baseline of casters will have a mere DC 31 versus GDM's +20. Still, point more or less taken; I just hate to toss around disjunctions without good reason, as they're so ferociously destructive.

Then again, "ferociously destructive" is basically the entire point.



Yes. You are missing flight, invisibility, xorn movement, teleportation, ranged touch attacks that aren't rays, ability drain, assay spell resistance, true casting, mind-affecting effects, illusions in general, charging, walls, and a number of other things that high-level characters will have (especially spellcasters). That's at least half a dozen ways of neutralizing Big T's danger to the party, and there are quite a few ways to deal enough damage to put him under for more than long enough, or shift him to another plane, or ....

Initially, sure, the Tarrasque looks great and intimidating; it's only when you look at it closely that you see all the things it lacks answers for.

It has such massive SR and HP that the only real way i have heard is people flying on it and dropping a rather unreal amount of acid. The others seems interesting for sure, but IDK if they are so overpowered that you need to change him.

He is large enough to go through walls, and so on.

[Eldariel]

It has such massive SR and HP that the only real way i have heard is people flying on it and dropping a rather unreal amount of acid. The others seems interesting for sure, but IDK if they are so overpowered that you need to change him.

Basically, the thing is he's not a threat since he can't find the people killing him. He's just a big turtle; he takes a while to kill (unless you cast e.g. Dominate Monster and have your own pet Tarrasque) but since he's not able to attack back, how you kill him is kinda secondary.

The easiest way to kill him quickly is just summoning or controlling or shapeshifting into Allips, btw. He, for some reason, lacks immunity to Ability Drain (he's immune to Ability Damage but that's it) and his touch AC sucks so few Allips drain him to 0 Wisdom quickly enough and then if you want to kill him you can just free hit him (target at 0 Wis is comatose) with Coup de Graces until he's at 0 HP and then Wish him away. Or leave him in comatose for all you care.


If killing him through a damage, a level 20 charger can easily rack up 1000 damage before he can act. A level 20 damage Wizard can Orb for 2k Fire damage with a feat that deals damage to Fire Immunes (it's a Touch Attack so it autohits and it doesn't allow Spell Resistance so even if Big T were Magic Immune it would not matter). A non-damage Wizard can just Shapechange/whatever into Allip or Solar or something and hit it until it dies. Or Gate or you get the point; a high level Wizard is literally capable of anything.

[toapat]

Why not just go all the way with Half-Farspawn?

because the original pseudonatural template gives 5*HD SR. we are not using the template from Complete Mage

that, and now we have a new template to abuse, half Farspawn

[Man on Fire]

Excuse me, but I'm kinda confused here - when did T's alignment changed? Because big guy's neutral and has Vow Of Poverty.

[awa]

Now it depends on the optimization of the party as i mentioned earlier the knowledge check to determine the few things big t is not immune to is almost impossible without cheese and in practice a wizard may very well end up wasting a lot of spells against all the stuff it is immune to.

The problem is it can’t fly or detect stealth characters, so by the time you are strong enough to fight it you will just be sitting there out of its reach throwing spells and attacks at it until they find something that can hurt it becuase by that level even low op parties will have at least 1 of those things.
The only exception to that is if the party badly underestimate it and allows it to get in melee.

edit big t has an int score if were changing feats we can change alignment as well

[toapat]

Excuse me, but I'm kinda confused here - when did T's alignment changed? Because big guy's neutral and has Vow Of Poverty.

staking forced alignment changing templates, Half Amethyst forces LN, half Celestial forces NG, together, they force LG.

[nedz]

Giving him Flight via a Template is not hard.

Consider:

Half-Fey
Insectiod wings - fly (good) at only 40'
Immune to Enchantment, so no dominate
Lots of unexpected SLAs, and his Cha would be 18

Half-Dragon
fly (average) again at 40'
Breath Weapon

Air Elemental Creature
fly (perfect) 100
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, & critical hits

Vivacious Creature
Incorporeal
fly (perfect) 20'

Wendigo
fly (perfect) 120'
windwalk

Senses still need work though.

[toapat]

Giving him Flight via a Template is not hard.

Consider:

Half-Fey
Insectiod wings - fly (good) at only 40'
Immune to Enchantment, so no dominate
Lots of unexpected SLAs, and his Cha would be 18

Half-Dragon
fly (average) again at 40'
Breath Weapon

Air Elemental Creature
fly (perfect) 100
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, & critical hits

Vivacious Creature
Incorporeal
fly (perfect) 20'

Wendigo
fly (perfect) 120'
windwalk

Senses still need work though.

we are using Half-Celestial for his wings. Earth elemental would be the used template for burrow/earthglide if we want an elemental template in our template stew

[Rubik]

We are not looking for Incorporal from ghost, Ghost is just the only way i know of to get Incorporal. considering he will have over 50 con before ghost, Ghost is causing more problems then it is solving with the Auto Soul-Sealing and 50% Incorporal on top of 50% concealment

honestly, id rather not have Mutliheaded either (makes T less epic)One level in monk with a necklace of natural weaponry (from Savage Species) with the ghost touch property added to unarmed strikes. Then he can be corporeal and incorporeal whenever it suits him. Add on throwing and distance, and give him Far Shot and whatever other range boosters you want, and he's basically this:

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/043/b/8/giga_bowser_by_hotjazz-d39egpo.jpg
But he can hurl himself at you from hundreds (if not thousands) of feet away.

[TuggyNE]

It has such massive SR and HP that the only real way i have heard is people flying on it and dropping a rather unreal amount of acid. The others seems interesting for sure, but IDK if they are so overpowered that you need to change him.

He is large enough to go through walls, and so on.

SR 32 is not impressive at level 20; it's barely average, and there are several ways to render it entirely irrelevant (assay spell resistance for +10 to a given target, and a single +1 CL booster, both trivial at 20, makes it useless). Sure, T has tons of HP, and regenerates, but that just means you need to a) avoid getting ganked (trivial with any of the methods mentioned for avoiding the Tarrasque's attacks) and b) do a fair chunk of damage over a number of rounds; almost any single character can reasonably outpace Regeneration 40 at level 20, unless they're very low-op, and a full party should do even better. That's not taking into account things like ubercharging, which offer a number of similar ways to ensure that Big T's HP go negative within a single round.

As far as walls... I was a little unclear, but I was referring to the wall spells, which T can't bypass by sheer size. (E.g. wall of stone, wall of iron, wall of force especially.)


Now it depends on the optimization of the party as i mentioned earlier the knowledge check to determine the few things big t is not immune to is almost impossible without cheese and in practice a wizard may very well end up wasting a lot of spells against all the stuff it is immune to.

This is at least debatable, and a number of builds (uberchargers, mailmen, UPS men: mostly mid- to high-op) may in fact need no adjustment at all to their standard attack routines; others might have the tools need to defeat T readily at hand, and after a few false starts, would be fine (e.g. Dread Necromancers or rebuke-focused Clerics could plausibly have allips trailing around after them, and might easily think of using them).


The problem is it can’t fly or detect stealth characters, so by the time you are strong enough to fight it you will just be sitting there out of its reach throwing spells and attacks at it until they find something that can hurt it becuase by that level even low op parties will have at least 1 of those things.

Basically, this. The Tarrasque has, fundamentally, only one way to force a fight, and that is to threaten something valuable to the characters and vulnerable to its attacks. Even that is readily solved by judicious application of certain spells. Without that, it's just a matter of spending enough time testing things.


Half-Fey
Insectiod wings - fly (good) at only 40'
Immune to Enchantment, so no dominate
Lots of unexpected SLAs, and his Cha would be 18

Amusing, and not wholly out of place for a force of natural destruction.


Half-Dragon
fly (average) again at 40'
Breath Weapon

The breath weapon isn't very useful in most cases, but flight is good.


Air Elemental Creature
fly (perfect) 100
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, & critical hits

I assume it's an [air] subtype, and therefore doesn't need to breathe either? Very helpful against e.g. endless drowning stunts.


Vivacious Creature
Incorporeal
fly (perfect) 20'

Unfortunately removes prodigious strength and natural armor, and 20' fly is pretty slow.


Wendigo
fly (perfect) 120'
windwalk

Interesting, if bizarre.


One level in monk with a necklace of natural weaponry (from Savage Species) with the ghost touch property added to unarmed strikes. Then he can be corporeal and incorporeal whenever it suits him. Add on throwing and distance, and give him Far Shot and whatever other range boosters you want, and he's basically this:

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/043/b/8/giga_bowser_by_hotjazz-d39egpo.jpg
But he can hurl himself at you from hundreds (if not thousands) of feet away.

Trying to avoid gear here, as well as silliness. :smallyuk:

[toapat]

As far as walls... I was a little unclear, but I was referring to the wall spells, which T can't bypass by sheer size. (E.g. wall of stone, wall of iron, wall of force especially.)

IE, why i was looking for Incorporal.

Currently our choice of Half Dragon is Shadow (Immune to Energy Drain, Negative Level Breath)

Listing:

Base: Tarrasque

Templates, in order Applied:
Pseudonatural (OMGWTFBBQ spell resist, Double speed, Alternate Form, Maximized HD)
Paragon (+15 all attributes, +12 HP/HD, Triple speed)
Shadow Creature (easy Concealment, Half again speed)(we need to get an SLA for any darkness spell.)
Mineral Warrior (Tarrasque Smite, Burrow Speed)
Half-Shadow Dragon (Ability Drain immunity, Negative Level Cone breath, D12 HD)
Half-Farspawn (SLAs, 2 Non-transformed Ubertentacles)
Monster of Legend (Awesome poison, Powerful guardian effects, Cold, Acid, Mind effecting immunity)
Half-Celestial (Fly Speed, access to Vow of Poverty)(Last applied chronologically, to force a Good alignement)


New Combat Tecniques:
Ubercharger
Vow of Poverty
Lightning Mace Technique*

BTD:
Greenbound Creature (moar healz, Tremorsense, Slam Attack)
*If we can get a way of getting a magic tattoo of Aptitude weapon

[Eldariel]

Incorporeal does nothing about the one you can't just smash through; Wall of Force.

[toapat]

Incorporeal does nothing about the one you can't just smash through; Wall of Force.

For everything else, there is Dimension door

[Eldariel]

For everything else, there is Dimension door

I fail to see the point of Incorporeality at that point. Seems like a massive waste.

[TuggyNE]

Currently our choice of Half Dragon is Shadow (Immune to Energy Drain, Negative Level Breath)

Tarrasque is already immune to energy drain; negative level breath is interesting, but won't catch a well-prepared party.


Greenbound Creature (moar healz, Tremorsense, Slam Attack)

So ... a trickle of fast healing and another melee attack? Ehh, could be worse, but seems a little unnecessary. (Well, wall of thorns 1/day is nice, but not terribly helpful at this level.)


*If we can get a way of getting a magic tattoo of Aptitude weapon

Yeah, I think I draw the line short of aptitude cheese.

[toapat]

I fail to see the point of Incorporeality at that point. Seems like a massive waste.

the point wasnt to get more maneuverability, but the 50% incorporeal miss chance.

he has at will D-Door anyway


Tarrasque is already immune to energy drain; negative level breath is interesting, but won't catch a well-prepared party.

So ... a trickle of fast healing and another melee attack? Ehh, could be worse, but seems a little unnecessary. (Well, wall of thorns 1/day is nice, but not terribly helpful at this level.)

Yeah, I think I draw the line short of aptitude cheese.

crap, back to Amethyst (Force Immunity)* or Bronze dragon (electric immunity) then, i was reading that as ability drain

Not significantly, considering that that actually nerfs his health 2hp/HD, the point was entirely if we can get aspect 3 (which is RAW legal (just it isnt actually a published item), its not a magic Item, or even a possession), on the other hand, what we really want there is the tremorsense.

*Prefered, Electricity is primarily delivered in ways that we have already made nigh-irrelevant, plus, a Force DBF breath attack

[Eldariel]

the point wasnt to get more maneuverability, but the 50% incorporeal miss chance.

he has at will D-Door anyway

But when he has obscene AC & effective Magic Immunity, what value is there in incorporeal miss chance anyways? Anyone who can affect him he can just as easily affect him be he incorporeal or not.

[toapat]

But when he has obscene AC & effective Magic Immunity, what value is there in incorporeal miss chance anyways? Anyone who can affect him he can just as easily affect him be he incorporeal or not.

Orb Spells, Searing Spells. Natural Armor doesnt apply to touch DCs.

i believe if we reduce his base CR to 3, we are at something like CR 37-45

[Eldariel]

Orb Spells, Searing Spells. Natural Armor doesnt apply to touch DCs.

i believe if we reduce his base CR to 3, we are at something like CR 37-45

Of course, but incorporeality is hardly an issue for a Mailman either. After all, mail always gets there; hefty Touch AC boosting is the only thing that could even inconvenience one, or more usefully some active options that enable reaching somebody doing Orb-bys.

[toapat]

Of course, but incorporeality is hardly an issue for a Mailman either. After all, mail always gets there; hefty Touch AC boosting is the only thing that could even inconvenience one, or more usefully some active options that enable reaching somebody doing Orb-bys.

we are getting 31 AC the Mailman cant bypass from paragon alone

[Blue1005]

So what about making him evil and turning him into a dracolitch or something like that?

[TuggyNE]

So what about making him evil and turning him into a dracolitch or something like that?

To what purpose, exactly? (Undeadifying the Tarrasque is generally a lousy idea, because it trashes the incomparable regeneration and excellent Con score.)

[Blue1005]

To what purpose, exactly? (Undeadifying the Tarrasque is generally a lousy idea, because it trashes the incomparable regeneration and excellent Con score.)

Im just throwing out ideas. Truly if it is so problematic to use as a DM i would skip over it and try something else. But the visual of it being undead does give a pretty nice mental image.

[Silus]

To get silly, give'em both the Woodling and Chamelion templates, max out Move Silently and Hide skills and throw it in an ancient forest.

[Blue1005]

To get silly, give'em both the Woodling and Chamelion templates, max out Move Silently and Hide skills and throw it in an ancient forest.

Silly would be giving it a dragon template for a breath weapon, and then a ton of taco bell for an other end weapon :smallwink:

How about just making it immune to certain spells, you can use the good old immunity from logic. If everyone kills it from x way, eventually he will become immune to x attack.

[nedz]

How about just making it immune to certain spells, you can use the good old immunity from logic. If everyone kills it from x way, eventually he will become immune to x attack.

Aah - natural selection.
You would need a lot of Tarrasques over many generations.
I thought that he was supposed to be unique.
Also: why doesn't this happen to goblins ?

I think that everyone's tarrasque should be unique, and that its good that we have had so many ideas. No idea is going to be perfect because of the real problem with this creature - meta gaming.

We still need more ideas about senses though, and Templates don't seem to be helping here. How do we give him something like blindsight or trueseeing ?

[Devmaar]

Aah - natural selection.
You would need a lot of Tarrasques over many generations.
I thought that he was supposed to be unique.
Also: why doesn't this happen to goblins ?

I think that everyone's tarrasque should be unique, and that its good that we have had so many ideas. No idea is going to be perfect because of the real problem with this creature - meta gaming.

We still need more ideas about senses though, and Templates don't seem to be helping here. How do we give him something like blindsight or trueseeing ?

Incarnum, Keeneye Lenses bound to the Soul chakra iirc

[toapat]

To get silly, give'em both the Woodling and Chamelion templates, max out Move Silently and Hide skills and throw it in an ancient forest.


We still need more ideas about senses though, and Templates don't seem to be helping here. How do we give him something like blindsight or trueseeing ?

IE: Why Greenbound is on the list, tremorsense, we are getting Trueseeing from Vow Of Poverty

[Devmaar]

Wouldn't the Tarrasque lose exalted status the first time it went on an indiscriminate rampage of destruction?

[Ulm11]

I don't know if this will feel to much like homebrew, but wouldn't the easiest way to buff the Tarrasque would be to make it's creature type an Abomination from the epic handbook?

[toapat]

Wouldn't the Tarrasque lose exalted status the first time it went on an indiscriminate rampage of destruction?

no, he wouldnt, because his task is to Re-Originate the world.

(To recreate the world to be better then it is.)

[Man on Fire]

You know what? Tarrasque doesn't need all of this. All he needs is: Moster Of Legend Template giving him abbility to breath fire and levels in Bloodstorm Blade, so he can throw hammers. Then he needs to kidnapp the Princess.

[toapat]

You know what? Tarrasque doesn't need all of this. All he needs is: Moster Of Legend Template giving him abbility to breath fire and levels in Bloodstorm Blade, so he can throw hammers. Then he needs to kidnapp the Princess.

that would mean he needs to be immune to everything except Fireball and be critically weak to the Jump Skill.

simply, it is more fun if the Tarrasque wins by breaking you in half

[Rubik]

Trying to avoid gear here, as well as silliness. :smallyuk:Put a collar on him and call him good. Or perhaps a tooth of Leraje with the necklace added? Or just give him a few weapons properties and call it good. I dunno if there's a way to enhance your own body with things like this...

But as far as the weapon abilities, just say that a wizard gave it some boosts.

[Psyborg]

Any source of (Persistent) Favor of Ilmater, or any nonlethal immunity that doesn't nix Regeneration, makes Big T unkillable, full stop, no exceptions. EDIT: Disjunction, AMF, Supernatural Graymantle, Supernatural Remove Trait.

Feat:Shape Soulmeld(Crystal Helm) + Feat:Open Least Chakra(Crown) gives +1 (insight) to Will saves, +2 (resistance) to Will vs. charm & compulsion, +essentia (deflection) to AC, and "your melee attacks gain the force descriptor[...]".
RAI: You can hit incorporeal.
RAW: You can hit incorporeal, and you now ignore all damage reduction.

Flight is easy. ToB, Incarnum, or templates, with the latter being preferable.

Half-Amythest Dragon gives force immunity.

Half-Elemental gives deprivation immunity. Earth gives earthglide, iirc.

Something to justify Good alignment + Feat:Vow of Poverty gives Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, and more Exalted feats; notable is Feat:Holy Radiance, causing undead within 10' to take damage. This is Anti-Allip measure #1.

Feat:Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest) + Feat:Open Greater Chakra(Waist) + 3 essentia from anywhere = immune to allips, and pretty resistant to most other ability drain sources.

Pumping Escape Artist can deal with Walls of Force thanks to Epic skill checks.

You want some form of immunity to slashing and piercing damage, OR immunity to poison, to avoid having your carefully crafted fight negated by a cheap alchemical item (Trollbane).

[nedz]

Poison Immunity we can have with

Air Elemental Creature
fly (perfect) 100
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, & critical hits

Nice flight too.

[toapat]

Poison Immunity we can have with

Air Elemental Creature
fly (perfect) 100
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, & critical hits

Nice flight too.

except that we have 180'/round with good maneuverability from half celestial

and Poison Immunity from the base creature.

And none of the racial benefits even stay, thats one of the reasons for the plant template that loses us health.

[toapat]

Base: Tarrasque

Templates, in order Applied:
Monster of Legend (Awesome poison, Powerful guardian effects, Cold, Acid, Mind effecting immunity)
Pseudonatural (OMGWTFBBQ spell resist, Double speed, Alternate Form, Maximized HD)
Paragon (+15 all attributes, +12 HP/HD, Triple speed)
Shadow Creature (easy Concealment, Half again speed)(we need to get an SLA for any darkness spell.)
Mineral Warrior (Tarrasque Smite, Burrow Speed)
Greenbound Creature (moar healz, Tremorsense, Slam Attack, D8 HD)
Half-Platinum Dragon (Attribute Drain immunity, Light Cone breath, D10 HD)
Half-Farspawn (SLAs, 2 Non-transformed Ubertentacles)
Half-Celestial (Fly Speed, access to Vow of Poverty)(Last applied chronologically, to force a Good alignement)


New Combat Tecniques:
Ubercharger
Vow of Poverty


Missing attributes: immunity to Electricity and Sonic. Darkness SLA

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just for the record, what is this "Ultimate Tarrasque's" CR?

[toapat]

Just for the record, what is this "Ultimate Tarrasque's" CR?

47 if we adjust for extra content (base CR of 3)

64 if we dont adjust base CR for extra content.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How are you adjusting for a base CR of 3? IIRC the vanilla Tarrasque has a CR of 20. Are you basing it is defeatable by a level 3 character? (assuming summon undead II for allips, which unless really lucky won't render it comatose in a single casting of SUII.)

[toapat]

How are you adjusting for a base CR of 3? IIRC the vanilla Tarrasque has a CR of 20. Are you basing it is defeatable by a level 3 character? (assuming summon undead II for allips, which unless really lucky won't render it comatose in a single casting of SUII.)

yes, if it can consistantly be destroyed by a 3rd level wizard alone, it isnt a CR20.

[Dusk Eclipse]

While I find funny that the Tarrasque can be deated by a creature summonable at level 3, I find hard to believe that even a reasonable optimized Wizard 3 can beat it alone. First of all SUII has a close range (40ft. at CL 3) well within charge zone of a Tarrasque, second Allips deal an average of 2.5 wis drain per hit, they would need either 7 rounds to drain the tarrasque or deal max damage on all 3 hits which I find doubtful. Third even a focused conjurer would be hurting for spellslots at that level, more if he wants to pack any defense such as invisibility or mirror image.

[Dusk Eclipse]

While I find funny that the Tarrasque can be deated by a creature summonable at level 3, I find hard to believe that even a reasonable optimized Wizard 3 can beat it alone. First of all SUII has a close range (40ft. at CL 3) well within charge zone of a Tarrasque, second Allips deal an average of 2.5 wis drain per hit, they would need either 7 rounds to drain the tarrasque or deal max damage on all 3 hits which I find doubtful. Third even a focused conjurer would be hurting for spellslots at that level, more if he wants to pack any defense such as invisibility or mirror image.

[Blue1005]

Aah - natural selection.
You would need a lot of Tarrasques over many generations.
I thought that he was supposed to be unique.
Also: why doesn't this happen to goblins ?

I think that everyone's tarrasque should be unique, and that its good that we have had so many ideas. No idea is going to be perfect because of the real problem with this creature - meta gaming.

We still need more ideas about senses though, and Templates don't seem to be helping here. How do we give him something like blindsight or trueseeing ?

If they meta-game, fireball from the Gods will solve that.
And I think it is mostly that, cause if my lvl 20 wizzy went against it, i probably would not think it was easily dominated or any of the other normal attacks against it.

[LordBlades]

If they meta-game, fireball from the Gods will solve that.
And I think it is mostly that, cause if my lvl 20 wizzy went against it, i probably would not think it was easily dominated or any of the other normal attacks against it.

Given the amount of information gathering spells a high level caster can pack and that the tarrasque is not exactly suited for stealth and subtlety and also in no way immune to divinations, I'd expect most parties to know ahead of time they'd be fighting a tarrasque, and that means the casters can gather as much info on it as they see necessary.

Having the opportunity to research&prepare vs. an opponent ahead of time and not taking it is usually a very bad idea.

Too bad you can't make the tarrasque Vecna-blooded without giving it class levels and/or significantly altering its stats. The only way I know to get 2nd level spells without class levels is Magical Training>Precocious Apprentice, but Magical Training needs int 10+

[Blue1005]

Given the amount of information gathering spells a high level caster can pack and that the tarrasque is not exactly suited for stealth and subtlety and also in no way immune to divinations, I'd expect most parties to know ahead of time they'd be fighting a tarrasque, and that means the casters can gather as much info on it as they see necessary.

Having the opportunity to research&prepare vs. an opponent ahead of time and not taking it is usually a very bad idea.

Too bad you can't make the tarrasque Vecna-blooded without giving it class levels and/or significantly altering its stats. The only way I know to get 2nd level spells without class levels is Magical Training>Precocious Apprentice, but Magical Training needs int 10+




your PC's do background information checks??? Funniest thing i have ever heard :smallbiggrin:

What about if He were a gods pet? then you can add some immunities to him and still keep in the logic of it. FVS get immunities for serving the deity why not him.

[nedz]

yes, if it can consistently be destroyed by a 3rd level wizard alone, it isn't a CR20.

By a level 3 wizard with the correct spells available, besides if you have fixed that problem then your point is moot.

So apparently we have a CR 64 Tarrasque. Is this useful ?

I guess we now have an optimisation challenge:
What is the minimum CR we can achieve the desired result with ?

[LordBlades]

By a level 3 wizard with the correct spells available, besides if you have fixed that problem then your point is moot.

So apparently we have a CR 64 Tarrasque. Is this useful ?

I guess we now have an optimisation challenge:
What is the minimum CR we can achieve the desired result with ?

That's hardly CR 64 on anything else that calculation. Anything with epic spells can most likely blow it to bits with minimum effort. Epic stuff goes by a completely different (and tons sillier) benchmarks. The real question IMO would be: is this a challenging encounter for the intended audience (probably level 17-20 parties)?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've seen some people pegging the Tarasque as a moderate threat to low to mid op level 12-13 parties

[nedz]

That's hardly CR 64 on anything else that calculation. Anything with epic spells can most likely blow it to bits with minimum effort. Epic stuff goes by a completely different (and tons sillier) benchmarks. The real question IMO would be: is this a challenging encounter for the intended audience (probably level 17-20 parties)?

Yes I know CR is next to hopeless, but we we're sticking to RAW here I thought ?

[toapat]

I've seen some people pegging the Tarasque as a moderate threat to low to mid op level 12-13 parties

except that CR is based off of a party of rogue, fighter, cleric, and wizard, who use 1/4 their resources an encounter. burning the wizard out completely is only using 1/4 your allotted resources, keeping it within the standard of CR3. at that, it isnt even a high op strategy, just one that completely powns the base tarrasque.

at minimum, we can do what we intended to do with 2 templates, for a +13 CR. those would be Half Platinum dragon and epic Pseudonatural, which makes him at the least a CR 16