What would you add to this party?

[ghost_warlock]

After posting this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255580) about a wizard build for the upcoming Spelljammer game, I found out a bit more about the party composition and I'm having second thoughts and now I'm not sure what to play.

The group is a pretty big one and between 1/2 to 2/3s of encounters will likely be taking place on the deck of our spelljamming vessel...for those unfamiliar with Spelljammer, think of it as a naval/pirate campaign in space. As a result there'll be some crowding, though there'll frequently be fights against giant space monsters capable of attacking anyone on board. (RELEASE THE KRAKEN! :smalltongue:) Because being pushed overboard can be pretty nasty, forced movement is an even better tactic than usual.

Here's the party roster so far:

Human brawler Fighter (rapier user)
Human tempest Fighter (kusari-gama user)
Gnoll persistant harrier Battlemind
Dwarf templar Cleric (uses mostly warpriest weapon attacks with an urgrosh, though)
Minotaur Cleric|Warlord hybrid (no idea what the player's trying to accomplish with this :smallconfused:)
Rogue or possibly Ranger of unkonwn race (player wasn't sure yet)
Wizard (no details on race or specialties)


Character ideas I've played with so far:

Githyanki Wizard I already posted (spell list is mostly party-friendly illusions & enchantments)
Thri-kreen eternal tide Monk
Mul Druid (sentinel)|Invoker hybrid (Con to AC, living zephyr companion, & lots of lighting/thunder attacks; would eventually get Con to damage with the Mark of Storm paragon path)
Human Paladin|Warlock w/ Mindbite Scorn & Crimson Fire (but there's way too many people with marks already)


Each of them has some advantages but none of them are really that exciting to me. :smallfrown:

The DM gave us a sheet with character creation rules last week. We're starting at 1st level and there's a few races that he's not allowing; foremost being Dragonborn, Kobolds, Genasai, and most of the "monster" races (the gnoll needed special permission from him). There's also a few classes that need special approval to play, though the only one that really springs to mind is the Runepriest, Shaman, and Seeker (not that I'd be likely to play a shaman or seeker anyway). I know he has a particular hate for the shaman class because he says their spirit companion & other summons make the battlefield "too cluttered"...though he has a point considering how cramped space combat on board a pirate ship will be already. (We usually don't deal with summoner druids or wizards.)

So, any thoughts or suggestions? What would you play in a party like this? :smallsmile:

Edit: Forgot to mention that the party uses Arcana to steer and otherwise control the ship so it never hurts to have multiple people who have training just in case the primary pilot is otherwise indisposed.

[Excession]

From that list, 3 defenders, 2 leaders, 1 striker, 1 controller, I would say your party needs a striker, and a side in control wouldn't hurt. You also have a lot of melee, especially if the rogue/ranger is going to be melee as well.

How does a Dwarf Hellfire pact Warlock strike you? Good enough damage, some control, high enough Int to get a good Arcana check, and the Dwarf ability to reduce forced movement by one square could be nice on a boat. You have good survivability, with high-ish hp, temp hp from Warlock powers and a minor action second wind. The ranger will do more damage, if built right, and might be better at the more powerful skills, but you should be harder to kill and provide more debuffs and nasty stuff like zone powers.

[Badgerish]

3 defenders
2 leaders
1 striker
1 controller

I recommend more strikers, or a very damage-focused wizard (as they can put out solid control and striker-level damage vs multiple opponents)

[Kiero]

An Essentials Hunter would give you a combination Striker-Controller, and be at range rather than another melee combatant like the rest. From my own play experience, they synergise really well with Wizards (in terms of forced movement and status effects.

[Raimun]

Yes, either striker or controller.

I'd take some melee striker with push/slide-powers and Controlling/Staggering Weapon. Fore! :smallamused:

[Tegu8788]

I'd suggest a Cha/Int Bard|Warlock. You'll be able to throw out as much control as you need, and given the size of your party, I have to imagine you'll be flooded with enemies. The Bard is good at moving allies and enemies, so chances are good on a boat that movement can come in handy. The warlock side can also provide some control, while giving you plenty of good ranged damage. So you end up with a controller that dips heavily into damage, and can heal in a pinch. You'd certainly have a good arcana check, and would make a good party face if needed. Extra healing never hurts, and you get both the extra controller and striker suggested.

For more hybrids that work, check my signature.

[tarlison]

Minotaur Cleric|Warlord hybrid (no idea what the player's trying to accomplish with this )

Reminds me of my character we call him Super doc hehehe well it was very useful in out campaign since we only have one +1 magical weapon or implement at level 9 so having a super healer build was really useful, although i took the full multiclass rather than the hybrid, but with a fully equip party dont think u need a super healer like this one :)

for the 7. Wizard i think i would suggest a human swordmage/wizard(frost type) it could work as a secondary controller can have arcana and it will be a little hard to take down :)

[ghost_warlock]

From that list, 3 defenders, 2 leaders, 1 striker, 1 controller, I would say your party needs a striker, and a side in control wouldn't hurt. You also have a lot of melee, especially if the rogue/ranger is going to be melee as well.

How does a Dwarf Hellfire pact Warlock strike you? Good enough damage, some control, high enough Int to get a good Arcana check, and the Dwarf ability to reduce forced movement by one square could be nice on a boat. You have good survivability, with high-ish hp, temp hp from Warlock powers and a minor action second wind. The ranger will do more damage, if built right, and might be better at the more powerful skills, but you should be harder to kill and provide more debuffs and nasty stuff like zone powers.

I love me some warlocks! :smallbiggrin: I tend more towards the Star, Vestige, and Sorcerer-King pacts. I've never enjoyed playing dwarves, for some reason. Muls are awesome, though. :smallsmile:

I was playing around with a githyanki vestige pact warlock that I really started to like, but it dawned on me that our party is also in desperate need of a "face." Decided to reroll with fey pact as a result.

For sake of argument, though, here's the vestigelock I came up with in case you're interested:


Rax Nezethet, level 20
Githyanki, Warlock, Lyrandar Wind-Rider
Eldritch Blast Option: Eldritch Blast Constitution
Eldritch Pact Option: Vestige Pact
Twofold Pact Option: Sorcerer-King Pact
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Arcane Admixture II Option: Arcane Admixture Thunder II
High Imaskar (High Imaskar Benefit)
Theme: Wizard's Apprentice

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 23, DEX 14, INT 23, WIS 9, CHA 12

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 11


AC: 29 Fort: 28 Ref: 30 Will: 25
HP: 130 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 32

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +24, History +23, Intimidate +16, Religion +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Athletics +10, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +16, Heal +9, Insight +9, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +12, Streetwise +11, Thievery +12

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Wizard's Apprentice Attack: Color Orb
Githyanki Racial Power: Telekinetic Leap
Warlock's Curse Power: Warlock's Curse
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Blast
Warlock Attack 1: Eyes of the Vestige
Warlock Attack 1: Clarion Call
Warlock Attack 1: Hand of Blight
Warlock Utility 2: Ethereal Stride
Wizard Utility 2: Feather Fall
Arcana Utility 6: Warp in the Weave
Warlock Attack 7: Sorcerer-King's Decree
Warlock Attack 9: Vestige of the Onyx Queen
Warlock Utility 10: King's Step
Lyrandar Wind-Rider Attack 11: Wind Burst
Lyrandar Wind-Rider Utility 12: Zephyr Wings
Warlock Attack 15: Touch of the Two Moons
Warlock Utility 16: Hero's Defense
Warlock Attack 17: Obedience's Reward
Warlock Attack 19: Voice of the Dictator
Lyrandar Wind-Rider Attack 20: Unruly Cyclone

FEATS
Level 1: Rod Expertise
Level 2: Bloodied Boon
Level 4: Hidden Sniper
Level 6: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 8: Mark of Storm
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Twofold Pact
Level 12: Arcane Admixture
Level 14: Mindbite Scorn
Level 16: Arcane Admixture II
Level 18: Resounding Thunder
Level 20: Implement Focus (Rod)

ITEMS
Rod Implement x1
Leather Armor x1


At 20th the build features a reroll on every Arcana check if necessary and double Con-mod damage on multiple spells, including Eldritch Blast and Vestige of the Onyx Queen thanks to a couple Arcane Admixtures. Vestige of the Onyx Queen becomes a blast 4 poison & thunder attack that petrifies (save ends). What's not to love? :smallbiggrin:

Also, it really strikes me as odd that the paragon path's attacks don't have the right keywords to benefit from the path's main boon: +Con mod to damage. dafuq :smallconfused:


3 defenders
2 leaders
1 striker
1 controller

I recommend more strikers, or a very damage-focused wizard (as they can put out solid control and striker-level damage vs multiple opponents)

I didn't really want to double up on straight wizards so I played around with a hybrid wizard|warlock but ended up taking mostly wizard spells, which kind of defeated the purpose of hybriding. :smalltongue:


An Essentials Hunter would give you a combination Striker-Controller, and be at range rather than another melee combatant like the rest. From my own play experience, they synergise really well with Wizards (in terms of forced movement and status effects.

Though the Essentials classes can be effective, I tend to find them boring after a few encounters since they really only have a small bag of tricks and few options when leveling. :smallfrown:


Yes, either striker or controller.

I'd take some melee striker with push/slide-powers and Controlling/Staggering Weapon. Fore! :smallamused:

I thought about barbarian, I really did, but I'm currently playing a bugbear berserker in Encounters and didn't want to play the same class in both games. Still, Large Heavy Flail ftw! 2d8+Str with a basic attack!? HELL YEAH! :smallbiggrin:


I'd suggest a Cha/Int Bard|Warlock. You'll be able to throw out as much control as you need, and given the size of your party, I have to imagine you'll be flooded with enemies. The Bard is good at moving allies and enemies, so chances are good on a boat that movement can come in handy. The warlock side can also provide some control, while giving you plenty of good ranged damage. So you end up with a controller that dips heavily into damage, and can heal in a pinch. You'd certainly have a good arcana check, and would make a good party face if needed. Extra healing never hurts, and you get both the extra controller and striker suggested.

For more hybrids that work, check my signature.

I'm no stranger to building hybrids...seems to be my default mode of character creation these days. :smalltongue: Still need to play around more with my Druid|Warlock build sometime. For this game, though, I figured I'd shy away from hybrids and build a "pure" class. Since the fighters both have a lot of self-heals and the party has both a both a cleric & a warlord|cleric, I figured we should be fine on the leadership end. I figured it'd be better to focus more on dps and control, hence a fey-pact warlock (goes Twofold with Sorcerer-King at 11th, of course).


Reminds me of my character we call him Super doc hehehe well it was very useful in out campaign since we only have one +1 magical weapon or implement at level 9 so having a super healer build was really useful, although i took the full multiclass rather than the hybrid, but with a fully equip party dont think u need a super healer like this one :)

for the 7. Wizard i think i would suggest a human swordmage/wizard(frost type) it could work as a secondary controller can have arcana and it will be a little hard to take down :)

Oh, by now I've seen his build and I'm sure he won't be anything like Super Doc. :smalltongue: Guy doesn't really know how to optimize: he's playing a Cleric|Warlord and he spent his only feat on light shield proficiency! :smallsigh:

Anyway, as for my character, I'm finally done fighting with the character builder for now so I thought I'd post what I came up with for some tasty feedback. We'll be starting at level one but here's where I'm hoping to go with the character. :smallsmile:


Mindartis Hadarai, level 10
Sun Elf (Eladrin), Warlock
Eldritch Blast Option: Eldritch Blast Charisma
Eldritch Pact Option: Fey Pact
Thay (Thay Benefit)
Theme: Wizard's Apprentice

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 20, WIS 11, CHA 20

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 16, WIS 11, CHA 16


AC: 22 Fort: 15 Ref: 21 Will: 22
HP: 77 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, History +17, Religion +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Athletics +4, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +5, Heal +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +10, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +10, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Wizard's Apprentice Attack: Color Orb
Eladrin Racial Power: Fey Step
Warlock's Curse Power: Warlock's Curse
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Blast
Warlock Attack 1: Eyebite
Warlock Pact Boon 1: Misty Step
Warlock Attack 1: Witchfire
Warlock Attack 1: Dread Star
Warlock Utility 2: Caiphon's Leap
Warlock Attack 3: Otherwind Stride
Warlock Attack 5: Deathly Conduit
Arcana Utility 6: Warp in the Weave
Warlock Attack 7: Mire the Mind
Warlock Attack 9: Storm Countess's Kiss
Warlock Utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep

FEATS
Level 1: Staff Expertise
Level 2: Gifted Death Dealer
Level 4: Hidden Sniper
Level 6: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 8: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 10: Mark of Passage

ITEMS
Leather Armor x1
Dagger x1
Potion of Healing
Sunrod
Staff Implement x1
Adventurer's Kit


Before this I had no idea that sun elf can give staff implement proficiency! How cool is that? Highlights of the build include ranged attacks that don't provoke (courtesy of that same staff expertise), lots of teleports with +1 square range, a ranged basic (Eldritch Blast) that hits hard with both Cha & Int to damage, and using the Wizard's Apprentice theme to score a free +2 implement right before picking up Dual Implement Spellcaster. If I already have magic implements before then (here's hoping for a staff of ruin and a vicious rod :smallbiggrin:) I'll use the free item for my armor or neck slot, obviously.

[Kiero]

One other suggestion: recommend the GM give everyone another level or two. With another few everyone will have far more interesting options and some mechanical differentiation from each other.

[neonchameleon]

Forced movement and on a ship? Two classes are leaping out at me.

The first is the Monk - a.k.a. the rigging rat. Centred Breath for just that little bit extra forced movement. And you get an encounter power allowing you to fly briefly from level 2. For bonus points go all out for maneuverability and then wire-fu across to the enemy ship when you are being boarded, elbow the steersman in the face, and take the wheel for a few seconds. Then run like buggery using wire-fu to get back to your own ship. Or dance along the rigging, dueling and swashbuckling.

The second is the Orb-expertise wizard. A burst 2 power that can slide everyone in it two squares as an at will? Gonna hurt.

[TheKoalaNxtDoor]

I'd take a Sorceror. Striker, but heavy control elements, which you will need with the amount of monsters you will fight with an 8 person party. Also gets arcana! Woo hoo!

[ghost_warlock]

One other suggestion: recommend the GM give everyone another level or two. With another few everyone will have far more interesting options and some mechanical differentiation from each other.

If it was up to me we'd be starting with 3rd level at least and preferably 11th. After more than 2 years of playing mostly Encounters I'm so sick of levels 1-3 I could throw up. But the DM has this twisted love of "low-level" games and insists we start at first. It's a type of mental disorder, if you ask me. :smalltongue:


Forced movement and on a ship? Two classes are leaping out at me.

The first is the Monk - a.k.a. the rigging rat. Centred Breath for just that little bit extra forced movement. And you get an encounter power allowing you to fly briefly from level 2. For bonus points go all out for maneuverability and then wire-fu across to the enemy ship when you are being boarded, elbow the steersman in the face, and take the wheel for a few seconds. Then run like buggery using wire-fu to get back to your own ship. Or dance along the rigging, dueling and swashbuckling.

The second is the Orb-expertise wizard. A burst 2 power that can slide everyone in it two squares as an at will? Gonna hurt.

As I said in the OP, I made an eternal tide thri-kreen monk but ended up discarding the idea. The problem is that a monk can't actually do anything to control the ship because it runs on arcane magic. Without arcane powers to fuel the Spelljammer we'll just sit there dead in space with a monk at the helm.

The first character I linked was an orbizard, but I changed gears because I didn't want to end up with two wizards in the party. Unless the other wizard was heavily damaged-based we'd end up with incredibly long battles since the party is all defenders, leaders, & controllers.



I'd take a Sorceror. Striker, but heavy control elements, which you will need with the amount of monsters you will fight with an 8 person party. Also gets arcana! Woo hoo!

Sorcerer would be a solution, yeah. But I hate their at-wills and their AoEs almost never differentiate from friend & foe - not good control when you'll be spending a lot of time fighting in cramped quarters. :smalltongue: