Dumbest skill for a Factotum?

[theUnearther]

As I believe we all are aware, factotums (factota) get ALL skills as class skills. The intent probably was "all skills in the player's handbook", but they actually get all skills. All of them.
And the second thing you see when someone mentions "factotum" is "iaijitsu focus", which is like sneak attack but in skill form, and not as good.

But leaving that aside, what would be the most ridiculous skill you could pick up that way?

To start I am going to nominate Control Shape, from the monster manual.
"I have finally attained perfect control of my lycantrophy."
"Wait, you're a lycanthrope?"
"That's not the point."

[Hirax]

I love it as a sneaky way to get autohypnosis.

[Amidus Drexel]

Lucid Dreaming, perhaps?

[sreservoir]

for the record, lucid dreaming is pretty great. rangeless assassination of anything what that needs sleep, eh?

[sreservoir]

for the record, lucid dreaming is pretty great. rangeless assassination of anything what that needs sleep, eh?

[Telonius]

There are probably a few from BoEF. "Smart is the new sexy," I guess.
Perform: Weapon Drill
Truespeak
Lucid Dreaming

[Morithias]

There are probably a few from BoEF. "Smart is the new sexy," I guess.
Perform: Weapon Drill
Truespeak
Lucid Dreaming

Don't underestimate perform (sex), you can't wear armour or most magical items when having sex, combine with vow of poverty or bonuses that don't need items like magical tattoos, and your sexy little ninja is going to be sleeping with her targets then killing them when she has all her bonuses and they have none. Which can turn an opponent that would've taken the group to take down into an easy mark.

[Slipperychicken]

Don't underestimate perform (sex), you can't wear armour or most magical items when having sex, combine with vow of poverty or bonuses that don't need items like magical tattoos, and your sexy little ninja is going to be sleeping with her targets then killing them when she has all her bonuses and they have none. Which can turn an opponent that would've taken the group to take down into an easy mark.

Preposterously situational, requires so much planning and DM-help that, if he let you do it, you would succeed regardless, even lacking a single rank in Perform (sexual acts). Also, I recall Bluff is the skill which gets people interested in you, and Perform (sexual acts) just reflects in-bed prowess, which you won't need because you're just killing the guy anyway. Not to mention you're alone when you fight the guy, so unless he was really reliant on those buffs, you're still fighting an appropriate encounter naked and alone, which is very likely to get you killed anyway.

You can argue that Control Shape lets you remove Polymorph effects.

I nominate the classic Craft (Basketweaving).

[Qwertystop]

I nominate the classic Craft (Basketweaving).

No, there's one spell that needs that, isn't there?

I say Truespeak, because despite the fact that truespeaking is governed by the skill, you can't actually DO anything with it without Truenamer levels.

[Venusaur]

Don't underestimate perform (sex), you can't wear armour or most magical items when having sex, combine with vow of poverty or bonuses that don't need items like magical tattoos, and your sexy little ninja is going to be sleeping with her targets then killing them when she has all her bonuses and they have none. Which can turn an opponent that would've taken the group to take down into an easy mark.

Very exalted of you.

[Malroth]

Or with truenamer levels for that matter

[Kelb_Panthera]

Or with truenamer levels for that matter

Is anybody else getting tired of this?

Yes, the truenamer is dramatically weaker than any other "caster," but the abilities they get are at least on par with a monk or fighter, and meeting the DC's isn't that hard even without cheese.

It's not a great, or even particularly good, class; but it's not -completely- worthless.

[Malroth]

A lv 16 Monk is not expected to have to make a DC 87 tumble check just to hit the 36HD (CR 16) dinosaur that just attacked the party.

[Flickerdart]

Is anybody else getting tired of this?

Yes, the truenamer is dramatically weaker than any other "caster," but the abilities they get are at least on par with a monk or fighter, and meeting the DC's isn't that hard even without cheese.

It's not a great, or even particularly good, class; but it's not -completely- worthless.
You should read Zaq's thread, because it's quite worthless. At the same level of optimization that it takes to make a Truenamer able to use its class abilities, the Monk has multiclassed into a nice PrC and the Fighter is chain-tripping like a champ.

[Hirax]

No, there's one spell that needs that, isn't there?

I say Truespeak, because despite the fact that truespeaking is governed by the skill, you can't actually DO anything with it without Truenamer levels.

Not entirely true, there are spells in ToM that clerics, wizards, sorcerers, factotums, etc. can cast, but that have truename components that require them to hit a truespeak DC. And some of them aren't all that bad, like spurn the supernatural, which causes a target creature's supernatural ability to be suppressed.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Or with truenamer levels for that matter


Is anybody else getting tired of this?

Yes, the truenamer is dramatically weaker than any other "caster," but the abilities they get are at least on par with a monk or fighter, and meeting the DC's isn't that hard even without cheese.

It's not a great, or even particularly good, class; but it's not -completely- worthless.

Indeed, Truenamers have some neat tricks, and some effects that are completely unique to the class.

[Malroth]

If only they had class mechanics that actually let them use those abilities without multiple custom +20 to skill items :(

[BowStreetRunner]

How many ranks in Profession (Rules Lawyer) does a Factotum really need, anyway?

[Kelb_Panthera]

A lv 16 Monk is not expected to have to make a DC 87 tumble check just to hit the 36HD (CR 16) dinosaur that just attacked the party.
Neither is the truenamer. He knows he can't affect that creature (know[nature]) so he makes the monk fly instead, or patches up the fighter with a word of nurturing, or gives the wizard a small CL boost for an attack spell, etc.

You should read Zaq's thread, because it's quite worthless. At the same level of optimization that it takes to make a Truenamer able to use its class abilities, the Monk has multiclassed into a nice PrC and the Fighter is chain-tripping like a champ.

I have read zaq's guide. It's a good read, but I still think the truenamer's "uselessness" is drastically exaggerated.

[willpell]

Yes, the truenamer is dramatically weaker than any other "caster," but the abilities they get are at least on par with a monk or fighter, and meeting the DC's isn't that hard even without cheese.

Forget whether the Truenamer can hit anyone else with his utterances; he's less able to even buff himself. The Truespeak DCs go up by 2 for every HD the target (including you) gains, and you can only add 1 to your skill check at the same time. So a Truenamer is probably the only character that gets weaker as he levels up. I had thoughts about somehow building one with a template who crafts items in order to spend all his XP so he can go through his entire life at 1 HD and never get into a fight; that one utterance that gives them +5 to skills is probably the best thing they get prior to level 20, so it makes complete sense for Truenamers to have a "desk job" doing research for the benefit of "real" adventurers.

[Spuddles]

Don't underestimate perform (sex), you can't wear armour or most magical items when having sex, combine with vow of poverty or bonuses that don't need items like magical tattoos, and your sexy little ninja is going to be sleeping with her targets then killing them when she has all her bonuses and they have none. Which can turn an opponent that would've taken the group to take down into an easy mark.

You had me at sexy little ninja.


Forget whether the Truenamer can hit anyone else with his utterances; he's less able to even buff himself. The Truespeak DCs go up by 2 for every HD the target (including you) gains, and you can only add 1 to your skill check at the same time. So a Truenamer is probably the only character that gets weaker as he levels up. I had thoughts about somehow building one with a template who crafts items in order to spend all his XP so he can go through his entire life at 1 HD and never get into a fight; that one utterance that gives them +5 to skills is probably the best thing they get prior to level 20, so it makes complete sense for Truenamers to have a "desk job" doing research for the benefit of "real" adventurers.

Everyone knows this. But skills are the easiest thing in the game to pump. Truenaming is purposefully made difficult because if your only source of skills are ranks, you're doing something wrong.

Just an item familiar gets you enough bonuses to keep up with truenaming. 30 int isn't hard to come by. A handful of misc bonuses, and you have level x2 +20ish by the mid levels.

[willpell]

Everyone knows this. But skills are the easiest thing in the game to pump.

With an absolutely absurd amount of cheese, yes. Non-cheesy, you can get a +2 masterwork tool (very doubtful), a +5 competence item (the Amulet), a +3 Skill Focus, and maybe Paragnostic Assembly membership for an easy +5 or a difficult +10. Why not put all that cheese into Sleight of Hand so you can steal Vecna's other eye? Or into Bluff so that you can convince the actual King of the Realm that you hired him to stand in for yourself and you're now back to reclaim the throne which was rightfully yours all along? Why go to all that work just to make your basic class features function at all? It'd be one thing if Utterances were infinitely reusable SLAs, but thanks to the two Laws they fall far short of that.


Just an item familiar gets you enough bonuses to keep up with truenaming.

What makes you think you can get an item familiar? They're an optional rule, which many DMs won't want to bother with. Besides which it's only +1 to the skill for every 3 ranks, and all those ranks go away if the item is lost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forget whether the Truenamer can hit anyone else with his utterances; he's less able to even buff himself. The Truespeak DCs go up by 2 for every HD the target (including you) gains, and you can only add 1 to your skill check at the same time. So a Truenamer is probably the only character that gets weaker as he levels up. I had thoughts about somehow building one with a template who crafts items in order to spend all his XP so he can go through his entire life at 1 HD and never get into a fight; that one utterance that gives them +5 to skills is probably the best thing they get prior to level 20, so it makes complete sense for Truenamers to have a "desk job" doing research for the benefit of "real" adventurers.

Nitpicks: The DC is 15, plus 2 per point of CR unless the target is a PC, not 2/HD. One skill rank per level does not mean that his bonus only increases by 1 each level (item dependence is just as big a deal with mundanes as it is with the truenamer), and the utterance of universal aptitude should always be used just prior to combat, if at all possible.

I'm not going to derail the thread any further with this discussion. I'm just sick of people saying a class that can't do its thing well enough to solo every level appropriate challenge is "useless." If nothing else he's got UMD, which can make any character at least somewhat useful, and a couple of genuinely unique abilities.

Just like zaq, I'm not claiming that anyone -should- play a truenamer. What I am saying is that it isn't completely unplayable.

[willpell]

I'm just sick of people saying a class that can't do its thing well enough to solo every level appropriate challenge is "useless."

I agree with you there...but a party of three Fighters and a Truenamer is very likely less able to beat a level-appropriate encounter than a party of four Fighters. To say nothing of three Fighters and a Binder - from the same book as the Truenamer.


If nothing else he's got UMD, which can make any character at least somewhat useful

Yeah, so play a Warlock or Rogue to get that plus infinite blasting or a good skill list. And those aren't exactly strong classes themselves.


and a couple of genuinely unique abilities.

Yeah, a couple. A Wizard has like twelve books full.


Just like zaq, I'm not claiming that anyone -should- play a truenamer. What I am saying is that it isn't completely unplayable.

I seriously would like to know how the Truenamer can be played. Because just going by what's in the books, it's completely, ruinously impossible. An Aristocrat makes a better PC from the looks of things. The only thing the Truenamer seems to be even somewhat good at is the 'walking encyclopedia" schtick, and we have the Loremaster for that flavor, with actually functional mechanics. I might play a Truenamer in a game that won't get past level 6, since Loremaster isn't an option there. But even there, I'd probably just rather be a brainy Psion or something. I'm trying to build a version of the Truenamer to my satisfaction; it doesn't have to end up any better than, say, the Soulknife. But it has to at least be capable of doing its thing, preferably a minimum of twice per day.

[Spuddles]

With an absolutely absurd amount of cheese, yes. Non-cheesy, you can get a +2 masterwork tool (very doubtful), a +5 competence item (the Amulet), a +3 Skill Focus, and maybe Paragnostic Assembly membership for an easy +5 or a difficult +10. Why not put all that cheese into Sleight of Hand so you can steal Vecna's other eye? Or into Bluff so that you can convince the actual King of the Realm that you hired him to stand in for yourself and you're now back to reclaim the throne which was rightfully yours all along? Why go to all that work just to make your basic class features function at all? It'd be one thing if Utterances were infinitely reusable SLAs, but thanks to the two Laws they fall far short of that.



What makes you think you can get an item familiar? They're an optional rule, which many DMs won't want to bother with. Besides which it's only +1 to the skill for every 3 ranks, and all those ranks go away if the item is lost.

Skill focus is cheesy? What?

Item familiar also doesn't work how you think it works.

I'm not saying it's a great class, but it's better than fighter. With fairly minimal investment (a feat), it works well enough. It's less item dependent than a fighter. Do you think wizards are good? Well they have spellbooks. If they lose that they're boned. They also only get two new spells a level. I am sure you can explain how those aren't really restraints for a wizard, but then you could refer to the arguments you made above and find they apply pretty well to a wizard.

Wizard supremacy is well established because we all know the spells that make them great. But someone already did all the heavy lifting of optimization. Picking glitterdust and shapechanging into a chronotryn is the same level of cheese as a feat and a few trinkets on a truenamer.

Truenamers are weak because utterances are limited in how many you can know and their effects are generally weaker than spells. But they're still somewhere around tier 4.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I agree with you there...but a party of three Fighters and a Truenamer is very likely less able to beat a level-appropriate encounter than a party of four Fighters. To say nothing of three Fighters and a Binder - from the same book as the Truenamer.



Yeah, so play a Warlock or Rogue to get that plus infinite blasting or a good skill list. And those aren't exactly strong classes themselves.



Yeah, a couple. A Wizard has like twelve books full.



I seriously would like to know how the Truenamer can be played. Because just going by what's in the books, it's completely, ruinously impossible. An Aristocrat makes a better PC from the looks of things. The only thing the Truenamer seems to be even somewhat good at is the 'walking encyclopedia" schtick, and we have the Loremaster for that flavor, with actually functional mechanics. I might play a Truenamer in a game that won't get past level 6, since Loremaster isn't an option there. But even there, I'd probably just rather be a brainy Psion or something. I'm trying to build a version of the Truenamer to my satisfaction; it doesn't have to end up any better than, say, the Soulknife. But it has to at least be capable of doing its thing, preferably a minimum of twice per day.

Why not, this thread probably won't be going back on the rails anyway, seeing as the only truly useless skill is profession (something obscure and nonsensical).

First to address the skill bonus issue.

LVL 16
19 ranks
+10 enhancement from amulet of the silver tongue
+7 int (base 15 +4 for level up +6 for headband = 25)
+3 for skill focus
+5 for utterance of universal aptitude
____
+44 against target DC 47 for other PC's and enemies in a single target, appropriate EL challenge. You also get a net +2 for targeting yourself (know personal truename).

No cheese, period.

Add a single +10 competence bonus item and you'll never* see a DC you can't meet at least once per utterance. If a custom item isn't available, there's still a MW tool, an ioun stone, tome of int + 1-5, racial bonuses, a higher starting int, spells from magic devices, etc.

Multiple enemy challenges are, or at least should be, more common than single monster challenges anyway. The DC is NOT that hard. Two enemies in an encounter with EL equal to the party level: target DC 43. You're guaranteed 2 hits from every utterance against an enemy.


Then it's just a question of how much effect those utterances have. While they aren't as spiffy as spells of the same level, they aren't that far behind a warlock's utility invocations and he gets more of them, and the truenamer can use wands, staves, and scrolls too. Also remember that since utterances are spell likes, you can apply the SP metamagic feats, e.g. quicken ability, empower ability, maximize ability, etc. just like the warlock.

There's really no question that the truenamer is a support character, but he's not utterly useless, or unplayable.

He starts to breakdown at 18, but then at 20 bam, gate as a spell-like. A 2-3 level window in the endgame where the class relies a bit more on magic items is hardly unuseable.

PS: none of the wizard's tricks are unique. Anyone that can activate scrolls can pull off any wizard trick if he's got the gold. Nevermind the fact that all the wizard's tricks are available natively to the sorcerer. The truenamer, on the other hand, is the only class that can undo an object being broken, even a magical one, or restore a spell that's been dispelled. These are truly unique abilities.

*Never in this case, as in most, is hyperbole. There's always something out there big enough you can't do more than annoy it, regardless of class.

[HunterOfJello]

I tried making a full list of all the skills in the game once. I highly doubt that it's complete, but there are over 100 skills on it, so it's worth a look to check out.

You can find it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9572495&postcount=33)


Control Shape is great because I think it's worthless if you're not a lycanthrope. Maybe it can help you reverse a Polymorph situation though.

Profession (Executioner) pretty much describes the job of every adventurer already in existence, so that one is kinda useless.

Profession (Astrologist) can actually be useful, but the checks are crazy high to succeed at them, so it isn't really worth it until you can reliably hit DC 30s IIRC.

Profession (Siege Engineer) can be great to put points into as a joke for a long time, then suddenly go buy some siege equipment to use on an enemy army and be real successful at it.

[ShurikVch]

Profession (Executioner) pretty much describes the job of every adventurer already in existence, so that one is kinda useless.

Ahem...

Headsman’s Axe: When specially sharpened and held with the proper technique, a greataxe (or a greatsword) can serve the executioner as the instrument of execution. The condemned is restrained, with the neck vulnerable to the strike readied by the executioner. On a successful Profession (executioner) check, the condemned dies instantly. If the executioner fails the attempt, the headsman’s axe delivers a coup de grace against the condemned
I wouldn't be call skill which by RAW allow you to one-shot Tarrasque "useless".

[Psyren]

Ahem...

I wouldn't be call skill which by RAW allow you to one-shot Tarrasque "useless".


No - you have to make his neck "vulnerable to the strike" first. Big T's Regeneration (not to mention size) arguably makes his neck vulnerable to no strikes at all.

[ShurikVch]

No - you have to make his neck "vulnerable to the strike" first. Big T's Regeneration (not to mention size) arguably makes his neck vulnerable to no strikes at all.
In this case size doesn't matter. Unless someone prove otherwise. But executioner can take really big blade...
And regeneration doesn't work because no damage was inflicted to the big T. It's only make target instantly dead. Dead bodies are objects, so devoid of constitution ability. And Con needed for regeneration to work.

[HunterOfJello]

Ahem...

I wouldn't be call skill which by RAW allow you to one-shot Tarrasque "useless".


that's.... freaking awesome!



No - you have to make his neck "vulnerable to the strike" first. Big T's Regeneration (not to mention size) arguably makes his neck vulnerable to no strikes at all.

Titan Bloodline called. He said, "challenge accepted".

[Psyren]

And regeneration doesn't work because no damage was inflicted to the big T.

Hi, unstoppable force? Meet immovable object:


The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

By RAW, no other method will work. No, not even that one.

[Ernir]

The insta-kill that skill describes conflicts with this in the case of the Tarrasque:

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
I'd call the Tarrasque's immunity more specific than the skill. If immunities don't work that way, I don't know how they can work at all...

[ShurikVch]

By RAW, no other method will work. No, not even that one.
Necromancers disagree! :smallcool:
Gravecrawler and voidwraith are drain constitution. Good luck to be alive with zero hp! :smalltongue:

And all this spawn-creating creatures? Those of them, who's attacks bypassed tarrasque's immunities, just make it into there new spawn!

Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. But once tarrasque is unconscious it can't eat, drink or breath. So damage go up, up and up. It doesn't kill outright, but this way tarrasque never will be restored.

Also, poison of molydeus.
2d6 Con drain/
2d6 Con drain. A creature reduced to 0 Constitution by
this poison immediately transforms into a mane. Only a
miracle or wish can reverse this transformation. Molydeus
venom is supernaturally potent and can harm creatures
normally immune to poison (including those under the
effects of spells such as neutralize poison or heroes’ feast,
but not constructs, oozes, plants, or undead). Against
such creatures, its effects are reduced to 1d6 Con for
both initial and secondary damage.


Hi, unstoppable force? Meet immovable object Side note: game has several things named like that. Do the RAW explain a situation when something "unstoppable" meets something "immovable"?

[Saidoro]

And all this spawn-creating creatures? Those of them, who's attacks bypassed tarrasque's immunities, just make it into their new spawn!
Except they can never kill it which means it never has a chance to become spawn.

Side note: game has several things named like that. Do the RAW explain a situation when something "unstoppable" meets something "immovable"?
Yes. More specific beats more general. This is why it can't be killed, it doesn't really get more specific than the not in the Big T's regeneration unless some one prints tarrasque-slaying arrows or something.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think a couple of people are forgetting the caveat from it's Regeneration ability:

"No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp)."

So the Executioner's thing would simply deal nonlethal damage equal to the Creature's full normal hit points + 10

[willpell]

Skill focus is cheesy? What?

Not what I said. "With an absolutely absurd amount of cheese, [Truenamer doesn't suck]; non-cheese you can have [etc. etc.], Skill Focus".


Item familiar also doesn't work how you think it works.

Clarify please. Unearthed arcana says:


Whenever a character with an item familiar gains skill points,
she may choose to put some or all of those skill points into her item familiar. She assigns the skill points normally, but notes that they now reside in the item familiar. For every 3 ranks she assigns to the item familiar, she gains a +1 bonus that she can apply to any single skill. This bonus can be applied to a skill in which she already has maximum ranks. She can apply multiple bonuses to the same skill, but she may not have more points of bonus in a skill than she has ranks.

You can't gain Item Familiar until level 3, but let's say you somehow were a truenamer with no Truespeak until level 3, and then you invested your 6 skill points (assuming 18 Int but nonhuman) in Truespeak, giving it a +2 bonus with the Familiar (you could assign the bonuses elswhere but in this example you wouldn't). Thereafter, you need to add 3 more ranks, which means 3 more levels, to gain another +1. So the final bonus at level 20 is 23 ranks plus seven +1 bonuses, for a total of 30+INTMOD (plus other bonuses). With which to make checks at DC 55 versus level-appropriate encounters. That's 12 higher than the highest sample DC listed in the DMG. for "Track a goblin that passed over hard rocks a week ago, and it snowed yesterday".


I'm not saying it's a great class, but it's better than fighter. With fairly minimal investment (a feat), it works well enough. It's less item dependent than a fighter. Do you think wizards are good? Well they have spellbooks. If they lose that they're boned. They also only get two new spells a level..

True on spellbooks, and that is what I do if a wizard gets out of hand in my games. But the last part is incorrect; Wizards get two new spells a level for free, but can buy as many more as they want, for what looks to be an average price of 150 gold per spell level (100 to scribe it and 50 for access to a source, though of course this can vary considerably).


Picking glitterdust and shapechanging into a chronotryn is the same level of cheese as a feat and a few trinkets on a truenamer.

The Wizard breaks the game without even having to do those things. He breaks the game with less effort than the Truenamer spends just being able to do anything other than make knowledge checks and attack with a weapon for its base damage.


Truenamers are weak because utterances are limited in how many you can know and their effects are generally weaker than spells. But they're still somewhere around tier 4.

I have never heard Truenamers called anything other than Tier 6.

[The Random NPC]

You can't gain Item Familiar until level 3, but let's say you somehow were a truenamer with no Truespeak until level 3, and then you invested your 6 skill points (assuming 18 Int but nonhuman) in Truespeak, giving it a +2 bonus with the Familiar (you could assign the bonuses elswhere but in this example you wouldn't). Thereafter, you need to add 3 more ranks, which means 3 more levels, to gain another +1. So the final bonus at level 20 is 23 ranks plus seven +1 bonuses, for a total of 30+INTMOD (plus other bonuses). With which to make checks at DC 55 versus level-appropriate encounters. That's 12 higher than the highest sample DC listed in the DMG. for "Track a goblin that passed over hard rocks a week ago, and it snowed yesterday".

You missunderstand how Item Familiars work, you would gain the Item Familiar at 3rd level, too late to add skills to it. At 4th you invest all 8 (Non-human 18 Int Truenamers get 8/level) skill points in your familiar, where doesn't really matter, so 7 in Truespeak, and 1 in Concentration. Again at 5th you put them where you can, but put all skill points in your familiar. You now have 16 skill points invested in your Item Familiar giving you a total of 5 +1 bonuses to apply to any skill. At 20th level, the Truenamer has invested 136 skill points (assuming his Int doesn't change) giving him 45 +1 bonuses. He can only apply 23 to his maxed out Truespeak, giving him a net 46 + Int mod + other bonuses. He can apply his remaining 22 +1 bonuses to where he sees fit.

EDIT: He could also grab a masterwork tool (+2), the greater version of that truespeak amulet (+10), skill focus (+3), and a +6 headband of Intellect (+3). That would total to 68 for Truespeaking, meaning he could effect CR 27 creatures on a roll of 1 at 20th level.

[Zaq]

You people are silly.

The Truenamer is playable. It is often frustrating. It requires a GM who is not actively seeking to stymie you. It requires, shall we say, dedication. And it doesn't have a whole lot of variety in its optimization. But it is playable.

On-topic, Control Shape is a good pick. I swear I saw a PrC somewhere who had Knowledge (Law) as a class skill, which is an interesting concept that, since it doesn't have any rules for it, doesn't really do anything.

Speak Language isn't always useless, but you can make it useless if you intentionally pick languages that are so obtuse (just look through monster books, ideally ones like MM2 or FF, that have entries that say "_____ speak their own language . . .") that they basically cannot come up unless the GM is specifically trying for it. (ONE intentionally obtuse language as a way of talking to your partymates in code is perfectly acceptable, and I encourage it in any party willing to listen. Full ranks, on the other hand?)

[Augmental]

Well they have spellbooks. If they lose that they're boned.

Extended Hoard Gullet. At 8th level and beyond, it lasts all day, and when you need to rest, you can cast Rope Trick.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You people are silly.

The Truenamer is playable. It is often frustrating. It requires a GM who is not actively seeking to stymie you. It requires, shall we say, dedication. And it doesn't have a whole lot of variety in its optimization. But it is playable.

On-topic, Control Shape is a good pick. I swear I saw a PrC somewhere who had Knowledge (Law) as a class skill, which is an interesting concept that, since it doesn't have any rules for it, doesn't really do anything.

Ghostwalker? Or is Profession (Law) just a prerequisite? I remmeber this from ICO... XXI?


Speak Language isn't always useless, but you can make it useless if you intentionally pick languages that are so obtuse (just look through monster books, ideally ones like MM2 or FF, that have entries that say "_____ speak their own language . . .") that they basically cannot come up unless the GM is specifically trying for it. (ONE intentionally obtuse language as a way of talking to your partymates in code is perfectly acceptable, and I encourage it in any party willing to listen. Full ranks, on the other hand?)

Feline (RotW Catfolk) FTW.

[eggs]

The Factotum has a knack for sticking its nose into third-party content and outdoing the various focused specialists that come packaged with their systems.

Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual has a couple quirky subsystems that can turn the Factotum into a pretty hilarious Mary Sue-in-a-can, like a Philosophical debate skill mechanic and Artistic Masterpiece ruleset.

Or there's that April 1 cats-article skill to spend hours training people to bring you food.

[Snowbluff]

No - you have to make his neck "vulnerable to the strike" first. Big T's Regeneration (not to mention size) arguably makes his neck vulnerable to no strikes at all.

Except the Executioner thingy doesn't deal damage. It applies the "Dead" effect on something.

Then again, you can't kill a Tarrasque without dropping it to unconsciousness and wish it not to live anymore... might be a case of specific trumps whatevs.

[toapat]

Gravecrawler and voidwraith are drain

the Tarrasque has Soul Sealing, only if you control billions of undead do you stand a chance of hurting him.

@psyren, its -30 before wish/Miracle will work, on the other hand, wish away his healing, and -10 kills him.

anyway, the most useless skill in the game is:

Profession (Pencil pusher): uses. None, Synergies: None

see, Knowledge (Law) has uses, its checks are for the Paladin who follows the PHB code. because said code is retarded.

I think Profession (Soldier) would be pretty powerful though

[123456789blaaa]

Just to let everyone know(I know this doesn't have much bearing on the tarrasque debate): I posted the executioner thingy on the minmaxboards and a poster posted this:

Quote from: BoVD


Execution Devices as Weapons: Some execution devices, such as headsman’s axes, make adequate melee weapons. In melee, such an item deals normal damage for an item of its kind (such as a greataxe) and cannot kill instantly. Most other devices of execution cannot be used in melee.

:smallfrown:

[TuggyNE]

the Tarrasque has Soul Sealing, only if you control billions of undead do you stand a chance of hurting him.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's Soul Sealing? I don't see it in either PF's or 3.5's Tarrasque listing.

[hex0]

But...they can be used if the target is restrained, right? :smallconfused:

[Qwertystop]

Except the Executioner thingy doesn't deal damage. It applies the "Dead" effect on something.

Then again, you can't kill a Tarrasque without dropping it to unconsciousness and wish it not to live anymore... might be a case of specific trumps whatevs.

But which is the specific? Specific of Tarrasque Regen vs general of "stuff trying to kill it", or specific of Executioner skill check vs general of "stuff being killed"? Its one specific rule-denier vs another. And I don't think Executioner is explicitly called out as a death effect.

[The Glyphstone]

Remember when this thread used to be about useless skills, instead of arguments about truenaming and Tarrasques?:smallfrown:

[Dusk Eclipse]

On-topic, Control Shape is a good pick. I swear I saw a PrC somewhere who had Knowledge (Law) as a class skill, which is an interesting concept that, since it doesn't have any rules for it, doesn't really do anything.



Ghostwalker? Or is Profession (Law) just a prerequisite? I remmeber this from ICO... XXI?


Which is completely useless because of



Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)

[TuggyNE]

Remember when this thread used to be about useless skills, instead of arguments about truenaming and Tarrasques?:smallfrown:

It's a meta-commentary about the value of Profession: Rules-Lawyer and Craft: Internet Debate.

I am only about 90% serious.

[Psyren]

Except the Executioner thingy doesn't deal damage. It applies the "Dead" effect on something.

Which is precisely why it DOESN'T work. RAW, there is only one way to slay the tarrasque, and the executioner thing is not it.

Great way to kill a dragon or something, but not Big T.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What were the DCs for the execution with axe? Because now I kinda want to have a wizard with skill ranks in Profession(Executioner) and abuse Shivering touch >_> <_<

[Snowbluff]

But which is the specific? Specific of Tarrasque Regen vs general of "stuff trying to kill it", or specific of Executioner skill check vs general of "stuff being killed"? Its one specific rule-denier vs another. And I don't think Executioner is explicitly called out as a death effect.

Well, I am well acquainted with the T, but not with the Execthingamabob. I thought I would have the Tarrasque live, and you can't execute in combat but what if you had it restrained... :smallconfused:

"I-I don't know." /fliesoffbridge

[animewatcha]

No, there's one spell that needs that, isn't there?

I say Truespeak, because despite the fact that truespeaking is governed by the skill, you can't actually DO anything with it without Truenamer levels.

Assuming you can the feats for it, Word Given Form style.

[toapat]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's Soul Sealing? I don't see it in either PF's or 3.5's Tarrasque listing.

its the quick name for Immune to Ability damage, Drain, Level damage, and Level Drain (all of which the Tarrasque is immune to)

I have no idea where i found it, but i believe it is in Complete Warrior

[The Glyphstone]

No, there's one spell that needs that, isn't there?

I say Truespeak, because despite the fact that truespeaking is governed by the skill, you can't actually DO anything with it without Truenamer levels.

Don't you need to make Truespeak checks to use the Truename-themed Wizard spells? A Factotum could Arcane Dilettante those if he had Truespeech.

[Dusk Eclipse]

its the quick name for Immune to Ability damage, Drain, Level damage, and Level Drain (all of which the Tarrasque is immune to)

I have no idea where i found it, but i believe it is in Complete Warrior

The big T isn't immune to ability drain, only to ability damage so a single Allip can render the Tarrasque comatose in roughly 7-ish rounds (1d4 Wis drain, averages 2.5) and it hits it on everything but a 1.

[Hirax]

Don't you need to make Truespeak checks to use the Truename-themed Wizard spells? A Factotum could Arcane Dilettante those if he had Truespeech.

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier. Spurn the supernatural is a good one, and there's a higher level one that permanently removes a supernatural ability until the victim undergoes a ritual of renaming, too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I am well acquainted with the T, but not with the Execthingamabob. I thought I would have the Tarrasque live, and you can't execute in combat but what if you had it restrained... :smallconfused:

"I-I don't know." /fliesoffbridge

If you have it restrained, you can simply CDG it, no skill check required.

[toapat]

If you have it restrained, you can simply CDG it, no skill check required.

and if you can CDG him, you can use the execution check on him

[Psyren]

and if you can CDG him, you can use the execution check on him

Which will in turn do nothing, since it does no damage and he can't be slain that way.



The big T isn't immune to ability drain, only to ability damage so a single Allip can render the Tarrasque comatose in roughly 7-ish rounds (1d4 Wis drain, averages 2.5) and it hits it on everything but a 1.

In addition, being comatose like this makes it willing. This gives you several ways to deal with it permanently, even before you get the Wish/Miracle needed to actually kill it. You can for instance teleport it (no save/SR), into the ocean, though you'll need a hefty CL or Circle Magic to do so - he counts as 16 medium creatures after all. Once there, he will continually drown/revive until you are able to obtain a Wish/Miracle and put him out of his misery.

You can also just Sequester it (no save/SR again), then return every few days to refresh the spell until you again have the Wish/Miracle needed. This has the added bonus of keeping him nearly undetectable by any other casters who may wish to find and undo your hard work. Just use a landmark nearby or your own arcane mark so you can find the spot where he's hidden. (You may not even need to find it - the Wish/Miracle to kill it seems like it can be used anywhere.)

If those two fail, you can summon a creature with a unique ability (that only works on willing targets) to dispose of it for you. For instance, a Xill's Planewalk ability has no weight limit, no save and no SR; summon one up (via SM6) and have it strand the Tarrasque on the ethereal plane. Even if it wakes up there somehow, it will have no way to get back.

[Flickerdart]

Stranding the Tarrasque on the Ethereal would get a whole bunch of ghosts and Ethergaunts really angry at you.

[Psyren]

Stranding the Tarrasque on the Ethereal would get a whole bunch of ghosts and Ethergaunts really angry at you.

Angry at who? A Xill did it, not me. :smallwink:

[Kuulvheysoon]

If those two fail, you can summon a creature with a unique ability (that only works on willing targets) to dispose of it for you. For instance, a Xill's Planewalk ability has no weight limit, no save and no SR; summon one up (via SM6) and have it strand the Tarrasque on the ethereal plane. Even if it wakes up there somehow, it will have no way to get back.

In revenge for the Tarrasque killing the party Rogue (they were level 14), the sorc summoned a Xill and sent it to the Plane of Elemental Fire.

Where it would burn.

For eternity.

[TuggyNE]

its the quick name for Immune to Ability damage, Drain, Level damage, and Level Drain (all of which the Tarrasque is immune to)

Except that that is not what the Tarrasque entry says, and it isn't even necessarily equivalent.

The big T isn't immune to ability drain, only to ability damage so a single Allip can render the Tarrasque comatose in roughly 7-ish rounds (1d4 Wis drain, averages 2.5) and it hits it on everything but a 1.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at. Whether immunity to ability damage covers ability drain as well is uncertain, but given the number of places immunity is listed separately for the two, it seems unlikely.

[Psyren]

the Tarrasque has Soul Sealing, only if you control billions of undead do you stand a chance of hurting him.

@psyren, its -30 before wish/Miracle will work, on the other hand, wish away his healing, and -10 kills him.

Soul Sealing?

Wishing away a creature's EX ability sounds like it would run into the partial fulfillment clause.

[Flickerdart]

Angry at who? A Xill did it, not me. :smallwink:
Considering that powerful Ethergaunts are 17th level Wizards with a sweet 30 Intelligence, they'll probably be able to figure out who it was, then get a Xill of their own and drop the Tarrasque on your head.

[Snowbluff]

Soul Sealing?

Wishing away a creature's EX ability sounds like it would run into the partial fulfillment clause.

Serpent Kingdom has a spell called "Trait Removal". It's a 5th level transmutation that can be used to remove an (Ex). I think wish should have no problem mimicking it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Considering that powerful Ethergaunts are 17th level Wizards with a sweet 30 Intelligence, they'll probably be able to figure out who it was, then get a Xill of their own and drop the Tarrasque on your head.

Which is why the negative energy plane is a better choice.

Big T isn't immune to negative energy, is he? He's definitely not immune to a vacuum.

[toapat]

Big T isn't immune to negative energy

yes he is, Immunity to energy drain always grants immunity to whichever energy deals damage to you, as an extension of making you immune to negative level effects.

it just happens that that isnt supposed to happen RAW

[Kelb_Panthera]

yes he is, Immunity to energy drain always grants immunity to whichever energy deals damage to you, as an extension of making you immune to negative level effects.

Citation please?

[toapat]

Citation please?

definitely not SRD

[killianh]

Has anyone said basket weaving yet?

[toapat]

Has anyone said basket weaving yet?

yes, they have

[Psyren]

Considering that powerful Ethergaunts are 17th level Wizards with a sweet 30 Intelligence, they'll probably be able to figure out who it was, then get a Xill of their own and drop the Tarrasque on your head.

The Ethereal Plane is pretty vast (and pretty empty.) My chances of dropping Big T anywhere they'd care about are next-to-nil.

I'm as leery about ticking off 17th-level Wizards as the next guy but the risk is still pretty low.


Serpent Kingdom has a spell called "Trait Removal". It's a 5th level transmutation that can be used to remove an (Ex). I think wish should have no problem mimicking it.

Fair enough, but Wishing to do so will do exactly that - mimic that very spell, possibly with a free Reach Spell thrown in. And this will run into his massive fort save and SR, potentially wasting your Wish.

[Flickerdart]

The Ethereal Plane is pretty vast (and pretty empty.) My chances of dropping Big T anywhere they'd care about are next-to-nil.

I'm as leery about ticking off 17th-level Wizards as the next guy but the risk is still pretty low.

The Tarrasque is immortal, so there's a 100% chance that eventually they'll find him and boot him back into the Prime Material.

So it's a lot like Pong, basically.

[Psyren]

The Tarrasque is immortal, so there's a 100% chance that eventually they'll find him and boot him back into the Prime Material.

So it's a lot like Pong, basically.

Not necessarily - if my only reason to put him there was for storage until I get a Wish/Miracle to keep him down, there is a good chance I can level up and reacquire/neutralize him before they come across him.

How good depends on where exactly on the Ethereal I put him of course, but the right divinations can lead me to a good spot. Even something as simple as Augury can let me know if it's a bad idea to have my Xill stash him in one place as opposed to another.

Furthermore, while he is there the countryside is safe from him, and he is considered defeated, so I already have a head-start on the XP I need.

[TuggyNE]

I wonder what effect the Positive Energy Plane would have on him... it looks like it would deal 868 non-lethal damage every 20 rounds or so (i.e., every natural 1) after the usual loading dose of temp HP. Net result is 100 temporary HP and 68 non-lethal every 20 rounds average, fading once you get a way to kill him and move him off the plane. So he'd be neatly comatose the whole while. Edit: math fail, forgot his regeneration. So no, bad idea.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, but what if Ethergaunt diviners are running divinations that alert them whenever powerful creatures show up? It's not like divining everything that moves isn't standard modus operandi for high level casters. :smalltongue:

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm going to have to go with Decipher Script. It's like Track, except you can choose not to do anything for a week and have a letter you can hand to someone else, and it has an epic use to imitate a level 0 spell once a day.

Er, I mean, just destroy everything but the Tarrasque. Then he can't kill anyone.

[Psyren]

Ah, but what if Ethergaunt diviners are running divinations that alert them whenever powerful creatures show up? It's not like divining everything that moves isn't standard modus operandi for high level casters. :smalltongue:

Then (a) my own divinations (e.g. Augury) would most likely warn me against doing it ("BAD IDEA! WOE!") or (b) I'd likely be screwed anyway since attracting the attention of a race of 17th-level wizards is likely to be more bad mojo than I can handle.

Unless I'm a cleric, in which case my deity ("the big guy's with me") might lend me a hand in avoiding any nasty attention they might throw my way. Ethergaunts, being a race of atheists, would not have similar divine backup for me or my god to worry about.

Basically, the Ethereal Plane dealy is a quick way to safely stow him away from innocents without needing the massive CL required to forcibly teleport/Recall him anywhere. If it's not feasible, I'd need another way, and at least my Allips would keep him a drooling vegetable until I could think of one. Worst-case scenario, I could leave him where he fell (ability drain doesn't heal on its own) and hope nobody shows up to cure him before I can come back and finish the job.


...What was this thread about again? :smalltongue:

[Jeff the Green]

Then (a) my own divinations (e.g. Augury) would most likely warn me against doing it ("BAD IDEA! WOE!") or (b) I'd likely be screwed anyway since attracting the attention of a race of 17th-level wizards is likely to be more bad mojo than I can handle.

Augury only looks half an hour into the future. Not a fatal flaw, but you'll need something higher level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I still say having our xill friend drop big T on the negative energy plane should take care of it. It's an endless, hungry void with no native inhabitants. At least no inhabitants that would care about sending big T back. This is, of course, assuming that T is immune to negative energy damage. If he's not and it just gets turned non-lethal, he remains comatose indefinately, and basically becomes a bit of planar jetsam that noone cares about. No need to ever even bother wishing him dead.

on topic: I reiterate my vote for profession (redshirt). It'll earn you a couple of gold if you ever bother taking a week to make a check, but otherwise it's utterly useless. Sub' out "accountant" for "redshirt" if you insist on something that's printed somewhere.

[Spuddles]

The Tarrasque is immortal, so there's a 100% chance that eventually they'll find him and boot him back into the Prime Material.

So it's a lot like Pong, basically.

I don't think random walks in an infinite 3d space will visit every point, even given infinite time.

[Psyren]

Augury only looks half an hour into the future. Not a fatal flaw, but you'll need something higher level.

Assuming they're scanning the entire Ethereal constantly as Flickerdart suggested, it should still trigger. Failing that, another divination can help, or I can immediately retreat to my home base/tower etc. which would be warded (e.g. with Forbiddance, or that one stone that blocks planar travel etc.) and yell "no backsies!"

If they're not scanning that area at the moment, then I might be in more trouble by not picking up on it - but by the same token, I also have a window of time to train up or acquire a scroll of Wish to kill it. Again, how much time I have depends on a lot of factors.

[theUnearther]

Holy hell, this is a lot of replies in just a day and a bit. Thank you all!

And yet it seems like there isn't much ridiculousness to be had there... (I said ridiculous, not useless).

Speak Language isn't always useless, but you can make it useless if you intentionally pick languages that are so obtuse (just look through monster books, ideally ones like MM2 or FF, that have entries that say "_____ speak their own language . . .") that they basically cannot come up unless the GM is specifically trying for it. (ONE intentionally obtuse language as a way of talking to your partymates in code is perfectly acceptable, and I encourage it in any party willing to listen. Full ranks, on the other hand?)Speak language technically doesn't have "ranks", each skill point is a whole new language. They're like skill tricks, but cheaper. Because we all know it takes the same time and effort to learn japanese and cantonese than to learn juggling or whatever.


Remember when this thread used to be about useless skills, instead of arguments about truenaming and Tarrasques?:smallfrown:Shhh. This is interesting stuff.

Also I lost the quote, but on the topic of Control Shape and Baleful Polymorph: does that work? Isn't that a property of the Shapechanger subtype?
Because if it works, I just found a new "must have" skill.

And also also, to the people who wanted truenaming to work (I don't think it should but whatever), somebody posted a homebrew version here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961). It came well recommended, but I haven't read it yet. I got the pdf and stashed it somewhere. Why not give that a read? I know I will, someday.

[Water_Bear]

99% of all Profession skills are worthless. Sailor and Siege Engineer see a lot of play, and Barrister is good if you're in Eberron or the Nine Hells, but otherwise the only reason to take them is to meet absurd PrC requirements.

Other than that, I would say Open Lock and Decipher Script are pretty stupid. With Arcane Dilettante and UMD there's no reason not to have access to Knock, and I have no idea what exactly Decipher Script is supposed to be used for.

[The Glyphstone]

Since Factotums can take Iajatsu Focus, which was only printed in 3.0 books, can they also take Intuit Direction or Innuendo?

[Tyndmyr]

You should read Zaq's thread, because it's quite worthless. At the same level of optimization that it takes to make a Truenamer able to use its class abilities, the Monk has multiclassed into a nice PrC and the Fighter is chain-tripping like a champ.

I've played a truenamer repeatedly. It's no wizard, but I'll take one over a fighter any day. See, the problem is that fighters tend to have very, very limited number of tricks. Less than the truenamer, even, which gets at least one per level. Thing is, almost all of those tricks are situational, and are worthless against certain opponents. Tripping, for instance, is of pretty limited value against things vastly larger than you, magically flying, etc. These come up rather a lot, actually. Truenaming lacks this aspect. If you can make the DC, you're done. There's no other risks of failure in almost all cases.

Now, this doesn't make the class spectactular, but it's very far from terrible, and it'll crush a monk or a fighter any day in flexibility or reliability.

Edit: I didn't bother with the original topic since Craft(Basketweaving) already won. Most profession and many craft skills are basically useless. Siege Engineer, Gambler, and Sailor are the only profession skills I can think of with an actual use, and even Gambler is only to get into Fatespinner.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Since Factotums can take Iajatsu Focus, which was only printed in 3.0 books, can they also take Intuit Direction or Innuendo?

Weren't they folded into Survival and bluff respectively in the 3.0->3.5 transition?

[Psyren]

Since Factotums can take Iajatsu Focus, which was only printed in 3.0 books, can they also take Intuit Direction or Innuendo?

Those were updated in 3.5 by being rolled into existing skills, thus we can't use the 3.0 versions. IF meanwhile was not rolled into anything, thus it is fair game to be ported.

[The Glyphstone]

Those were updated in 3.5 by being rolled into existing skills, thus we can't use the 3.0 versions. IF meanwhile was not rolled into anything, thus it is fair game to be ported.

Phooey. Intuit Direction would have been a shoo-in.

[mattie_p]

Ride skill. Can never have enough ranks in ride. Or heal. Gotta max out the heal skill too.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Since Factotums can take Iajatsu Focus, which was only printed in 3.0 books, can they also take Intuit Direction or Innuendo?

I don't believe so. Iajatsu Focus was never updated in any way, shape or form into 3.5e.

Intuit Direction was folded into Survival, and I believe that Innuendo was merged into Bluff.

Or were you making a joke?

[willpell]

Profession skills are mostly meant to be flavor, and it doesn't really matter which one you take, but if you're playing a "realistic" campaign rather than something with a plot railroad, the ability to turn a week of gametime into a decent chunk of gold, without having to risk your life, could be huge. It's contrary to the usual style of most games, but "useless" is too strong a word.

[Rubik]

Profession skills are mostly meant to be flavor, and it doesn't really matter which one you take, but if you're playing a "realistic" campaign rather than something with a plot railroad, the ability to turn a week of gametime into a decent chunk of gold, without having to risk your life, could be huge. It's contrary to the usual style of most games, but "useless" is too strong a word.Or just be a spellcaster and sell your services for (potentially) hundreds of thousands of times as much.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Profession skills are mostly meant to be flavor, and it doesn't really matter which one you take, but if you're playing a "realistic" campaign rather than something with a plot railroad, the ability to turn a week of gametime into a decent chunk of gold, without having to risk your life, could be huge. It's contrary to the usual style of most games, but "useless" is too strong a word.

The problem is, Craft and Perform can be used for exactly the same thing--and nearly every class has Craft as a class skill--but both of these skills also have other uses: Craft can be used to make things (cheaper weapons and armor, or, more importantly at low levels, alchemical items and even poisons), and Perform is the central component of the Bard's Bardic Music ability, along with a slew of lesser (but still significant) abilities (such as the ability to use certain magical instruments based on your ranks in the relevant Perform skill, such as the Fochlucan College's instruments and the Slippers of Battledancing; the ability to influence behaviors as the Diplomacy skill via the epic skill check rules, with the same DCs; and the ability to gain favor in gladiatorial battles in Complete Warrior, which gives numerical bonuses to your ability to hit and make saves), as well as PrC entry (usually Bard-related, but the Dervish requires ranks in Perform (dance)) and some other miscellaneous things I am undoubtedly forgetting.

Aside from the Profession (executioner) trick, which is of dubious legality (and functionally not much better than a coup de grace anyway), and possibly uses of Profession (engineer) in place of Knowledge (architecture & engineering) to operate siege weaponry, I can't think of any generally useful things to do with Profession checks.

EDIT: Actually, depending on how easy optimization for Perform is relative to Diplomacy, I would have to suggest Diplomacy for this list (if, of course, the former is easier), for the same reason as Profession: another skill can do everything that skill can do, but better, and it can also do other things. (I am aware that Diplomacy itself is still strong, but if you had to choose between Diplomacy and Perform, and you could get Perform higher, there would be no sense in ever taking Diplomacy).

Of course, I suspect it *isn't* easier (Diplomacy has a slew of synergies, auras, and abilities that explicitly boost the social triumvirate, of which Diplomacy is one), but worth mentioning.

[Flickerdart]

Profession (sailor), I believe, governs sailing as per Stormwrack, but it's pretty much the only useful one. Craft (Poison) is the best moneymaker as long as you have a market. Rat traps, anyone?

[Snowbluff]

Fair enough, but Wishing to do so will do exactly that - mimic that very spell, possibly with a free Reach Spell thrown in. And this will run into his massive fort save and SR, potentially wasting your Wish.

Yeah, that's pretty much I was thinking as I was posting it. Still, if you need precedent for a spell that would do it, you now know. Maybe your DM will let Wish wish away an (Ex) as it would T's existence. :smalltongue:

[Qwertystop]

Profession (sailor), I believe, governs sailing as per Stormwrack, but it's pretty much the only useful one. Craft (Poison) is the best moneymaker as long as you have a market. Rat traps, anyone?

Profession (Miner) lets you dig much faster than attacking the ground does.

[hex0]

Profession (Miner) lets you dig much faster than attacking the ground does.

Kobold Paragon/Factotum, anyone?

[Flickerdart]

Profession (Miner) lets you dig much faster than attacking the ground does.
You know, I've been looking for those rules, and I can't find them anywhere. Where'd WotC bury them?

[Korivan]

Dumbest skill: synchronized panicking

Dumbest class ability: The sneak attack for a single d6

[Kuulvheysoon]

You know, I've been looking for those rules, and I can't find them anywhere. Where'd WotC bury them?

If you're talking about Profession (Mining), there's a decent passage in Races of the Dragon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ride skill. Can never have enough ranks in ride. Or heal. Gotta max out the heal skill too.
Ride isn't worthless, it's just not worth taking more than 5 or so ranks in. Heal can be vital if the guy that uses the Wand of CLW gets downed and you didn't bring any other healing items, though it's not worth maxing out either.

99% of all Profession skills are worthless. Sailor and Siege Engineer see a lot of play, and Barrister is good if you're in Eberron or the Nine Hells, but otherwise the only reason to take them is to meet absurd PrC requirements.

Other than that, I would say Open Lock and Decipher Script are pretty stupid. With Arcane Dilettante and UMD there's no reason not to have access to Knock, and I have no idea what exactly Decipher Script is supposed to be used for.

Knock has some rather notable limitations if you're not casting it from a spell-slot, and you need decipher script to cipher scrolls if you don't have read magic. Neither open lock nor decipher script even resembles useless.



Edit: oh right, we're discussing their application by a factotum. Ride could still be useful, but the other three maybe not so much for a factotum.

[willpell]

Mounted combat lets you use a Ride check as armor class for your mount. Seems big to me, especially if your mount is something powerful but fragile, like a half-dragon or something.

[Psyren]

Dumbest class ability: The sneak attack for a single d6

FAQ fixed that, you can spend multiple inspiration points on that ability to boost it.

[Spuddles]

You know, I've been looking for those rules, and I can't find them anywhere. Where'd WotC bury them?

Somewhere with kobolds. Either races of the dragon or the web enhancement that makes kobold the best race.



FAQ fixed that, you can spend multiple inspiration points on that ability to boost it.

I thought general consensus was that FAQ is not RAW?

[willpell]

FAQ probably can't establish RAW, but in this case it's not contradicting RAW either; saying "You can spend 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack damage" does not in any way establish whether or not you can do so multiple times, but the first inspiration point ability is explicitly usable as often as they want, and so the FAQ was just clarifying that the same is true here.

Granted this might be problematic with the boost to AC, but then if you burn all your IP just to be untouchable for one turn while not actually damaging the foe, you're probably not being all that effective.

[erikun]

Since Factotums can take Iajatsu Focus, which was only printed in 3.0 books, can they also take Intuit Direction or Innuendo?
If that's the case, how about putting ranks in the 3.0 Scry skill?

Also, since only spellcasters can use Craft: Alchemy to make things with it, does that make it unavailable to Factotums? Or do they have a way around that?

[Psyren]

I thought general consensus was that FAQ is not RAW?

That only applies when it contradicts RAW. This doesn't, because RAW is too vague (i.e. Cunning Strike doesn't take an action etc.)

[Dusk Eclipse]

If that's the case, how about putting ranks in the 3.0 Scry skill?

Also, since only spellcasters can use Craft: Alchemy to make things with it, does that make it unavailable to Factotums? Or do they have a way around that?

RAW I'm not sure; but if we consider Arcane Dilletante I'd say they should be able to use it.

[Korivan]

FAQ fixed that, you can spend multiple inspiration points on that ability to boost it.

Hadn't seen the FAQ on that. Thank you. Otherwise, that was a pretty lame ability. Probably still is.