DM nerfing Turn Undead - How to build for anti undead?

[Olfgar]

So one of my friends wants to DM a a game, that really focuses on undead (something like 60% of the world is now undead).

In an earlier campaign we played in a 5th level cleric PC was using turn undead after we got SWARMED, each turn he would kill 3-4 of them (most were ghouls/zombie, or skeletons with a wight or two occasionally showing up).

That now has his panties in a bunch and hes changing how turn undead works. Here is a quote

" well the first roll, the roll to find out the highest HD of undead you can effect is the same, though only one undead may be turned per attempt. after, the effected undead rolls a will save, a DC = 10 + 1/2 your cleric lvl (classes that progresses turn undead stack) + your charisma"

I never thought that ghouls or skeletons were really, uh...all that willful. His logic is that since they WERE alive they should be able to make will saves, yet ANY other will save inducing effect still wont effect him. They way hes carrying on how its fine to use the Undeath to Death Spell, or Chain Spell Command Undead is fine, but Turn Undead is just completely unacceptable, and what not is making me want to build a character thats meant to ruin an undeads day. Any help from you fine folks?

[Feralventas]

Cleric still has a lot of anti-undead options via the spell lists in the Book of Exalted Deeds and Libris Mortis. Paladins are a good second option. Most undead are Evil, so a non-evil crusader should also have plenty of viability vs undead.

Libris Mortis has at least two prestige classes geared toward killing undead; one's a Paladin/Cleric one for fighting them directly, and a cleric/druid one that focuses on sunlight effects to kill off the undead that can't handle daylight.

You can make weapons crit and sneak-attack function on undead with a weapon-crystal; can't remember the name, so check out the Magic Item Compendium or see if someone else can't remember it for you.

When in doubt, burn it; an evocation wizard or sorcerer into Holy Scourge (Complete Mage) is well prepared to set any undead you find to the blaze.

Pyrokineticist also works for this, though it's not as powerful or utilitarian.

Your DM doesn't seem like the type to deal with cheese, but if you're feeling particularly vindictive and feel like getting books tossed at you, there are Psion builds that have infinite regeneration of power-points and can make Astral Constructs every round that last for hours and out-swarm the swarm of undead with customizable monsters that have no fear and won't have to worry about diseases.

[Venusaur]

Don't use your turn undead for actually turning undead. Instead use them to fuel DMM persisted spells. Find a good anti-undead buff, and keep it all day. Slap on nightsticks for extra cheese.

[gorfnab]

Show him the Pathfinder Cleric's Channel Energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric) ability and corresponding feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/channeling-feats) and see if that would work instead.

[animewatcha]

If you wanna be a ****, he said turn, but not 'greater turn'. So Radiant servant greater turning stuff left and right.

There is also Expedition to castle ravenloft / complete divine 's turn variant of destroy undead ( which since it isn't 'turning' therefore affects all undead within range ) deals 1d6 damage / effective turning level with will save for half ( and i think it's own custom save iirc ). Also auto-qualifies for turn undead things ( like nightsticks, divine feats. )

There are other ways to him make undead do better vs TU.

This 'easy approach' is not a good one.

Looking through the savannah website. Found Crown of the grave spell. Command undead ( is wiz/sorc but not an evil descriptor ) spell. Undead bane. Sunbeam spell. Rejuvenating light. Lots of spells.

Take one level of monk-fighter variant from drag mag for whirlwind attack. Enlarge person, reach-weapon.

Lots of ways to express your 'disgust' with his new turning thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think your group has misunderstood the turning mechanic.

A 5th level cleric can't dust a ghoul or any of the incorporeal undead in the MM. You have to have twice as many cleric levels as the undead has HD to kill it on the spot with turning. The ghoul, skeleton, and zombie are generally the only things in the MM that a cleric -can- dust if the encounters aren't swarms of weak undead, unless he's pimped his turning ability with feats and PrC features.

Your DM is over-reacting.

If he insists on this (unnecessary) nerf then divine feats and domain feats are a better choice even in the one situation that turning is actually supposed to be good. Use them instead. Spellcasting is still king anyway.

[ericgrau]

There are still a million good anti-undead spells, both divine and arcane. Insta-kill and damage. Core and non-core. If the party already has a cleric then I'd go sorcerer to be different. If you look carefully there are still plenty of great options. I say sorcerer over wizard because they make it easier to handle a limited spell list (i.e., anti-undead spells) since you don't need to decide how many of each to prepare ahead of time. Many of the standard spells work well too.

1: detect undead, chill touch (even better on monk hybrids)
2: ~command undead
3: halt undead
4: wall of fire
5: magic jar
6: ~undeath to death, disintegrate (undead have horrible fort)
7: control undead
8: sunburst (note radius), polymorph any object (fort)
9:-

[Endelehia]

A good ACF for turning undead can be found on Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.You deal 1d6/cleric level damage to all undeads within 30 ft,and they get a similar will save like you DM suggest ( 10 + cleric level + cha modifier for half damage). I guess your DM might still find it too powerfull,but you could knock it down a notch by reducing the DC etc.

[hex0]

Doomguide prc is a nice touch. Suit it for your campaign.

[The Random NPC]

How about Hide from Undead? First level cleric spell, lasts 10 min/level, affects 1 person a level, and only allows a will save for intelligent undead. Specialize in retrieving lost MacGuffins from undead infested areas!

[LTwerewolf]

Funny, our group actually buffs turn undead a little so it's useful in more than one occasion where you're not really in any danger anyhow.

[Ammutseba]

Sounds like you guys annihilated an encounter he thought very highly of and he's taking it personally now. He should really be improving his encounters instead of nerfing the players, but that is not the point of the thread, so...

Let me first ask, what sources are you allowed to use when building a character?

[Kholai]

There are still a million good anti-undead spells, both divine and arcane. Insta-kill and damage. Core and non-core. If the party already has a cleric then I'd go sorcerer to be different. If you look carefully there are still plenty of great options. I say sorcerer over wizard because they make it easier to handle a limited spell list (i.e., anti-undead spells) since you don't need to decide how many of each to prepare ahead of time. Many of the standard spells work well too.

1: detect undead, chill touch (even better on monk hybrids)
2: ~command undead
3: halt undead
4: wall of fire
5: magic jar
6: ~undeath to death, disintegrate (undead have horrible fort)
7: control undead
8: sunburst (note radius), polymorph any object (fort)
9: Mass Heal

You missed the best one there Mr Grau.

[ericgrau]

It's a sorcerer/wizard list. EDIT: Though a feat to add the healing domain by level 17 wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Anxe]

There's an alternate rule in Complete Divine that lets turning deal (turning levelX1d6)+Cha mod damage instead of completely destroying or scaring off undead. You could use that.

[Answerer]

Turning undead is largely worthless anyway; you shouldn't be staying in Cleric much past Cleric 5 anyway. Just go into some PrC; if you really want anti-undead stuff, lots of Cleric PrCs have that. There's Radiant Servant of Pelor for one that I know of, though IIRC it's not particularly good. There are others.

But mostly, your DM seems kind of incompetent. Houseruling Turn Undead for an undead-heavy campaign seems reasonable. Going into an undead-heavy campaign not realizing how Turn Undead works and getting annoyed when it turns out to be quite potent against your army of trivial undead is just... really poor planning and preparation on your DM's part. I mean, Turn Undead is just the most obvious thing ever to use, how could he not have considered it?

Also, realistically, even middling optimization should mean that almost-arbitrary numbers of low-CR undead should be of little threat to mid-ish level PCs. I mean, even the CR system takes that into account! And we all know how broken that is.

[Anxe]

If your DM feels his mook zombies are threatened he can also slap the Mob template on them from Dungeonscape.

[hex0]

There's Radiant Servant of Pelor for one that I know of, though IIRC it's not particularly good. There are others

I thought people called RSP Cleric+?

[grarrrg]

I thought people called RSP Cleric+?

Technically, ANY full-casting PrC is "Cleric+", although that's more because Cleric has no real features past level 1 but....

[Snowbluff]

Be a healer or something. Like a Radiant Servant, for free metamagic.

"Reach out and melee touch someone" -My Cleric motto

[Answerer]

I thought people called RSP Cleric+?
Radiant Servant of Pelor basically takes all of the generic Good Cleric features, and improves each one, at almost no cost (skill ranks you were going to take anyway, and a not-awful feat that ties in well with what you want from the class). As such, it's probably the most obvious "this is obviously and strictly better than Cleric is." Which draws some flack.

Unfortunately, that statement is pretty much true for most full-casting PrCs. The Sun Domain isn't very good, and the spells in the Healing Domain are, by and large, pretty mediocre. Free Empower+Maximize sounds great, but the spells you're applying them to don't really benefit as much as you might like: the cure spells don't have a lot of variability (just the base dice), and heal and mass heal (the only really good spells in the domain) don't get affected by the feats at all. The rest of the features are all pretty minor.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If your DM feels his mook zombies are threatened he can also slap the Mob template on them from Dungeonscape.

Mob template is in DMG2. Why do people keep saying dungeonscape?

[TheOOB]

Don't use your turn undead for actually turning undead. Instead use them to fuel DMM persisted spells. Find a good anti-undead buff, and keep it all day. Slap on nightsticks for extra cheese.

The power of base turn undead is in question in this game, using one of the most twinky game breaking tricks in the books isn't a good idea. Honestly, neither Persistent Spell nor Divine Metamagic should have ever been made as feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The power of base turn undead is in question in this game, using one of the most twinky game breaking tricks in the books isn't a good idea. Honestly, neither Persistent Spell nor Divine Metamagic should have ever been made as feats.

That's not entirely fair. Neither of those feats is gamebreaking by itself. It's the combination of the two, along with nightsticks and a certain combination of domains, that gets out of hand. DMM quicken on a cleric of a printed god is nice, but hardly world-shattering.

[Anxe]

Mob template is in DMG2. Why do people keep saying dungeonscape?

I don't own either book so I say whatever I want!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't own either book so I say whatever I want!

LOL. Fair enough :smallamused:

Still, try and remember it's in DMG2.

It's not polite to spread disinformation. :smalltongue:

[Anxe]

LOL. Fair enough :smallamused:

Still, try and remember it's in DMG2.

It's not polite to spread disinformation. :smalltongue:

Aye Aye, Captain Panther!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aye Aye, Captain Panther!

Captain? When did I make captain? Dangit this is going to mean more paperwork isn't it?:smallfurious:

:smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

Other ideas you may wish to consider:


Skullclan Hunter PrC (Miniatures Handbook) gets auto-Sneak Attack vs undead (You don't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack via flanking or whatnot, you just deal your Sneak Attack damage against them on every attack) and some decent immunities.

Apostle of Peace (book of Exalted Deeds) gets ridiculous fast casting progression up to 9th level spells. Almost all of them are healing/protection related and you have to sink a bunch of Feats into sucky Vows, including Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Poverty. But Undead are not living creatures, and thus you can kill them with your many Positive Energy spell without breaking any Vows. And the Save DCs of your spells are quite high, thanks to a Vow bonus.

Anything class or PrC that adds Favored Enemy bonuses (Ranger, Deadgrim, Stalker of Kharesh, Harper Paragon, Swanmay, etc) would help, since Favored Enemy (Undead) and/or Favored Enemy (Evil) would be in effect a lot. The Wise to Your Ways feat from Ghostwalk is particularly noteworthy, since it adds your Favored Enemy bonus to most Saves vs your Favored Enemy. Unquenchable Flame of Life feat from Faiths of Eberron would add another +2 to your Favored Enemy bonuses vs Undead (plus another +2 to your Saves on top of the bonus from Wise to your Ways). Favored Power Attack feat from Comp Warrior would add a big damage bonus. Nemesis feat from Book of Exalted Deeds would add another +1d6 damage and allow you to always detect your Favored Enemy, even through walls.

Binder 5ish can get the Kas vestige (Dragon Mag 341). When you hit an enemy with a critical hit they must Save or be permanently Blinded (Will negates), and you gain the ability to crit Undead (and thus blind them and use various other combos). Works well as a base class for other anti-undead PrC.

[hex0]

Also, Bane Magic feat from HoH would add +2d6 to spell damage.