Unlimited power with SRD only materials

[gooddragon1]

[This assumes a cooperative DM]
If you can planar binding an efreeti
5th level wizard (magic circle vs. evil)
Gray Elf for 20 int +4 int spell
Prescience alt class feature
7+5+1=13 vs 12 needed for the scroll
Dimensional lock spell scroll for 16 (need a 4 or better)
Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus on Planar Binding school
DC 10+6+9=25 vs +9 save (needs a 16 or better to save)

Assuming a small bit of luck in a few places you can get an efreeti to grant you 3 wishes. You actually only need 1. So offer him 50000 gp from 2 of his own wishes and you get a candle of invocation from 1.

Gate in a solar and have him grant you a wish (this will be under more favorable circumstances as you don't need to negotiate).

Wish for a use activated item of wish. Now here are the important parts:
-Sp abilities do not have an XP component ever unless otherwise mentioned.
-Wish says "Create a magic item" but never mentions needing to meet prerequisites (though XP could be a problem in many cases)
Therefore you can create that use activated item of wish with an unlimited caster level (despite not meeting the prerequisites) and an unlimited supply of XP.
Following from this is the second part "add to the powers of an existing magic item". This part is so wonderfully broad and far reaching. You may then proceed to "add" every spell in existence or any ability you can think of. You need only add to it's powers. Epic spells would normally be beyond the reach of an item such as this. However, you can say that the item is treated as an artifact for that purpose. Follow up with adding an unlimited bonus to spellcraft if you need it and an epic spell that says you gain all the powers of an item you merge with permanently and irrevocably. Add the power to your magic item to grant an ability to a target of your choice. Merge with the item. You have now achieved pun-pun power at will without needing to go outside the SRD.

EDIT: It may even be possible to just "add" the power to add an ability to a target of your choice to the item and skip the last part altogether. This eliminates the need for epic spells and artifacts as you can add an ability to yourself that allows you to add abilities and start from there. You could opt to not use the prescience ability but this raises the level requirement or amount of luck required considerably. So it is actually entirely possible to do this with materials out of only the core 3 books but it requires a higher level.

EDIT2: Actually you could go even further back in this chain and create a single use, use-activated item that instantaneously/permanently grants an ability to it's user. It says "create a magic item" not create an existing magic item. The caster level is unimportant and the only limiting factor would be XP cost (which isn't a limiting factor). The ability you add is to add abilities at will to a target creature (yourself included).

[Alleran]

This sounds similar to a version of the Wish and the Word.

[Kelb_Panthera]

.............. and? :smallconfused:

You've combined, what looks like, three well known exploits, and a wish that screams, "Hey DM, screw me over as hard as you can."

I don't see the point.

[gooddragon1]

.............. and? :smallconfused:

You've combined, what looks like, three well known exploits, and a wish that screams, "Hey DM, screw me over as hard as you can."

I don't see the point.

Except, rules as written, he can't twist the wish.


A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

It is not a greater effect as it is listed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Except, rules as written, he can't twist the wish.





It is not a greater effect as it is listed.

I was referring to the final wish to be fused with the item.

Edit: possible twist: as the magic takes hold you feel your mind becoming one with the power of the item, but at the back of your mind you feel something fade away. Mechanically, your body disappears from reality, along with your spellcasting ability and all of your gear except the item you fused with. You are now an intelligent magic item.

[gooddragon1]

I was referring to the final wish to be fused with the item.

Edit: possible twist: as the magic takes hold you feel your mind becoming one with the power of the item, but at the back of your mind you feel something fade away. Mechanically, your body disappears from reality, along with your spellcasting ability and all of your gear except the item you fused with. You are now an intelligent magic item.

You don't need to even do that as I mentioned in the final part. You just create an item that "gives you an ability of your choice". The ability is "At will you may grant target creature an ability as a standard action." Aka the start of pun-pun.

So, the DM will have to step outside RAW to stop this process at that point (the ideal part would just be to have the efreeti say no but that would be unusual given the payoff ratings they usually expect).

[Psyren]

I'm convinced that folks who freely advocate binding efreeti for this or that purpose have yet to actually read their MM1 entry.

[Aharon]

Successfully binding an Efreet played to his full power requires more than just the listed stuff. It would be easier just to buy a candle of invocation from your WBL, which is sufficient for that at 5th level.

@Your Wish
Doesn't work, since the XP cost for adding that ability is not defined. While the Solar doesn't have to pay it, it is a cost and must be a discrete number:


When a wish creates or improves a
magic item, you must pay twice the normal
XP cost for crafting or improving the item,
plus an additional 5,000 XP.

You can force the solar to create an item of basically unlimited power for you, that adds all kinds of existing abilities, but you can't force him to create an item with abilities that don't have a defined XP-cost, and there's no RAW that forces the DM to allow the creation of items that aren't pre-designed in sourcebooks.

[gooddragon1]

Successfully binding an Efreet played to his full power requires more than just the listed stuff. It would be easier just to buy a candle of invocation from your WBL, which is sufficient for that at 5th level.

@Your Wish
Doesn't work, since the XP cost for adding that ability is not defined. While the Solar doesn't have to pay it, it is a cost and must be a discrete number:

You can force the solar to create an item of basically unlimited power for you, that adds all kinds of existing abilities, but you can't force him to create an item with abilities that don't have a defined XP-cost, and there's no RAW that forces the DM to allow the creation of items that aren't pre-designed in sourcebooks.

Through 1 method or another it will work. Either through granting epic spellcasting power by which ad hoc adjustments allow anything and thus my combo works (thus an existing effect) or more broadly by the fact that the words "Create a magic item" do not specify an existing magic item and there is such a thing as the custom magic item creation rules which therefore mean that items and effects not listed may be created. Furthermore, the only requirement a DM could request is an unlimited amount of XP to create the item you request but you may safely ignore all other prerequisites by the wording. You have an unlimited amount of XP to work with as it doesn't require any for the Sp ability. This means that because the only limiting factor is not a limiting factor there are no limiting factors on what you can create by RAW.


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost.

The ability always lacks an XP cost altogether.

No XP cost, no limit magic item creation rules, and the only limiting factor that the DM can request is XP mean no limits on what you can do RAW.

[Aharon]

Custom Item Creation relies on DM Fiat. Epic Spells likewise rely on DM Fiat. The point of most TO exercises is to get builds that reach some specific goal with as little DM Fiat as possible.

[gooddragon1]

Custom Item Creation relies on DM Fiat. Epic Spells likewise rely on DM Fiat. The point of most TO exercises is to get builds that reach some specific goal with as little DM Fiat as possible.

DM fiat for magic items comes in the fact that creating an item could require resources and requirements you don't have. Wish allows the broad creation of magic items without specifying it to be an existing one. Since it doesn't specify that it has to be an existing magic item it requires you to use the custom magic item creation rules. The RAW constraint on the DM however is that he can only require an infinitely high XP cost which you don't have to worry about. If the DM is acting RAW he cannot deny your wish because he cannot exercise control over it through an XP cost. Again, the fiat can only be in the XP cost and thus is not a problem at all.

[Urpriest]

Aren't scrolls cast as the creator?

[Flickerdart]

Since it doesn't specify that it has to be an existing magic item it requires you to use the custom magic item creation rules.
Guidelines.

[gooddragon1]

Guidelines.

Ok, guidelines.

There are several requirements that the guidelines present and possibly an infinite number they don't. You ignore all of them through wish except XP. Which you ignore through the fact that wish was used as an Sp ability.


Aren't scrolls cast as the creator?

Unsure what you mean here. If you're referring to binding and the save allowed as well as the other stuff there are two ways to handle that beneficially: 1 is that the creator of the scroll had an ability score such that the modifier was hillariously high (without increasing the cost by the way) and the other is that your ability modifier is the one that counts.

I'm leaning towards just using a candle of invocation with a few levels higher of Wealth By Level at this point.

[Aharon]

I must have missed the section of the guidelines that state how to create items with new effects. Would you mind citing that section?

[gooddragon1]

I must have missed the section of the guidelines that state how to create items with new effects. Would you mind citing that section?


Adding New Abilities

A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.


To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

But really, they're guidelines which means the DM is going to have to ad hoc it and the only factor he would normally have control over in this scenario is XP cost as wish ignores everything else. Not only that, but it's also the fact that wish doesn't say your item has to be an existing one.

So we can either interpret new abilities to mean ones that haven't been mentioned or we can go with the fact that wish does not specify that the item has to be an existing one and carry that over to the magic item creation guidelines.

Wish grants the flexibility and it carries over.

[Aharon]

I think the green text needs to be read in the context of the paragraph. It goes on and specifies what is meant by adding new magical abilities - defined magical abilities the magic item didn't have before, in the example making a +1 vorpal sword into a +2 vorpal sword. This doesn't refer to adding completely new effects at all.

The only way to ad hoc your wish would be to create a custom item with a newly created spell that does what you want to achieve, and the DM can disallow new spells he finds to powerful (DMG p. 35 et seq., ELH p. 88 et seq.). And this is assuming a very lenient DM, a less lenient DM would probably rule that to achieve your wish, it would have to create a new spell as part of its effect, which is not within the power of the Wish spell, so it falls under the greater effects clause.

[gooddragon1]

I think the green text needs to be read in the context of the paragraph. It goes on and specifies what is meant by adding new magical abilities - defined magical abilities the magic item didn't have before, in the example making a +1 vorpal sword into a +2 vorpal sword. This doesn't refer to adding completely new effects at all.

The only way to ad hoc your wish would be to create a custom item with a newly created spell that does what you want to achieve, and the DM can disallow new spells he finds to powerful (DMG p. 35 et seq., ELH p. 88 et seq.). And this is assuming a very lenient DM, a less lenient DM would probably rule that to achieve your wish, it would have to create a new spell as part of its effect, which is not within the power of the Wish spell, so it falls under the greater effects clause.

You are ignoring all spell requirements as part of the ignoring of prerequisites to create a magic item except XP.

Helm of Brilliance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#helmofBrilliance)

It emanates a bluish light when undead are within 30 feet. This light causes 1d6 points of damage per round to all such creatures within that range.

What spell in this list...:

Strong varied; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, detect undead, fireball, flame blade, light, prismatic spray, protection from energy, wall of fire; Price 125,000 gp; Weight 3 lb.

Does exactly that?

None of them.

By extension, no, the effect does not need to be existing. You can create entirely new ones without a new spell.

In fact:


Silversheen

This substance can be applied to a weapon as a standard action. It will give the weapon the properties of alchemical silver for 1 hour, replacing the properties of any other special material it might have. One vial will coat a single melee weapon or 20 units of ammunition.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 250 gp.

Note the lack of a spell requirement.

[The Glyphstone]

So...if your DM says that any homebrew you create is automatically legal, you can legally homebrew an infinite-power magic item? Seems like a tautological loop.

[gooddragon1]

So...if your DM says that any homebrew you create is automatically legal, you can legally homebrew an infinite-power magic item? Seems like a tautological loop.

Yes. Because he gave you permission (that's what wish is doing - giving you permission).

I will link this up for you though:

Wish - Create a magic item.
XP costs - None because Sp.
Limiting factors - Only XP and ignore ALL other requirements.
Result - No limits (of any kind whatsoever other than fiat outside of RAW) item creation.

EDIT: Your reference of tautology seems like RAI to me. This is a discussion of RAW (RAW is automatically correct until fiat comes in from RAI).

[The Glyphstone]

Tautology is not a rules term, RAW or RAI, it is a dictionary term. You are using fiat to justify fiat, saying something is RAW because you say it is RAW. That is not RAW.

Strictly, your 'exploit' cannot be RAW under any definition because it relies on using imported homebrew that the theoretical 'anything goes' DM in this example makes legal the instant it's created, but homebrew by definition is not RAW. Using 'RAW' or 'fiat' in a discussion requires that you understand what the terms mean, rather than using them as a panacea to deflect counter-arguments.

[gooddragon1]

Tautology is not a rules term, RAW or RAI, it is a dictionary term. You are using fiat to justify fiat, saying something is RAW because you say it is RAW. That is not RAW.

Strictly, your 'exploit' cannot be RAW under any definition because it relies on using imported homebrew that the theoretical 'anything goes' DM in this example makes legal the instant it's created, but homebrew by definition is not RAW. Using 'RAW' or 'fiat' in a discussion requires that you understand what the terms mean, rather than using them as a panacea to deflect counter-arguments.

No, I'm using the same thing Pun-Pun does: Broad interpretation of a rule that does not have many limits. Simply, because wish allows access to item creation without prerequisites and GP costs and because item creation is normally limited by those things I can say that it can create whatever I want. I've effectively eliminated all the barriers on item creation that would prevent creation of an item that can do anything through the application of a few rules (Wish item creation, non-xp cost, and custom magic item existence).

Fiat would be if I said that something works without providing a rules example. RAW means that I have provided a rules example.

You might as well say that pun pun creating an ability with the "you gain an ability" wording is imported homebrew. In fact, through my explanation of wish, you could indeed use imported homebrew and remain within the rules as that is what this wish will effectively allow you to do.

[The Glyphstone]

Then can you supply a rules example for your central hypothesis, that Wish allows you to ignore all prerequisites of item creation? By the actual RAW, Wish does not need to say 'you must meet all prerequisites', because 'Create A Magic Item' would refer you to the actual rules on Creating Magic Items, which discuss meeting prerequisites in detail.




You might as well say that pun pun creating an ability with the "you gain an ability" wording is imported homebrew.

Which is why the actual, completely RAW-legal Pun-Pun does not do that. He merely has arbitrarily high stats and every existing (Ex) and (Su) ability, all legally given to him by the RAW of Manipulate Form. Making up abilities is flagged as questionable if you actually read the original explanation for Pun-Pun, and not required for him to reach infinite power.

[gooddragon1]

Then can you supply a rules example for your central hypothesis, that Wish allows you to ignore all prerequisites of item creation? By the actual RAW, Wish does not need to say 'you must meet all prerequisites', because 'Create A Magic Item' would refer you to the actual rules on Creating Magic Items, which discuss meeting prerequisites in detail.


XP Cost...

...When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

No other requirements.

The other possibility is that wish cannot create items on it's own and relies on the caster's feats. The PHB example shows that a person could wish for a staff of the magi but as that is beyond the scope of the wish without XP expenditure it is altered. So creating an item without prerequisites is a given possibility.

[The Glyphstone]

No other requirements.

Under the XP Costs section of the spell...as part of an 'if-then' exception to the flat cost of 5,000 XP. 'If it doesn't specifically say otherwise, I can do it' is not RAW - RAW is 'if if doesn't say you can do it, you can't, but if it does, go wild'.

Quoth the PHB:

For example, wishing for a
staff of the magi might get you instantly
transported to the presence of the staff’s
current owner.

Indeed...creating items without prerequisites is not a possibility by your own example, but moving you to an existing item of that description (or moving that item to you) is.

[gooddragon1]

Under the XP Costs section of the spell...as part of an 'if-then' exception to the flat cost of 5,000 XP. 'If it doesn't specifically say otherwise, I can do it' is not RAW - RAW is 'if if doesn't say you can do it, you can't'.

No, actually, what you refer to is called practical optimization. A common mistake when looking at theoretical optimization.

The rule says I can create a magic item and then fails to limit me in a meaningful way.

I am not saying I am just doing 10 jumping jacks to cast a wish spell because the rules don't say I can't.

I am saying that I am using a poorly defined rule that allows theoretically anything and building from there.

So, you miss an important point with your statement: I have grounding in existing rules to do this rather than making them up on the spot.


Quoth the PHB:
Indeed...creating items without prerequisites is not a possibility by your own example, but moving you to an existing item of that description (or moving that item to you) is.

Nope, it mentions it under the ability to pervert a wish which means that he wished for something beyond his XP cost to create as I have shown that due to lack of specifics yet still grounded rules it is possible to create without prerequisites.

[The Glyphstone]

No, actually, what you refer to is called practical optimization. A common mistake when looking at theoretical optimization.

The rule says I can create a magic item and then fails to limit me in a meaningful way.

I am not saying I am just doing 10 jumping jacks to cast a wish spell because the rules don't say I can't.

I am saying that I am using a poorly defined rule that allows theoretically anything and building from there.

You are using a poorly defined rule and adding additional text that is not present in the actual RAW to justify your further actions. If you cannot present that text in the RAW, you cannot claim its presence by omission and then say it is RAW.


EDIT: You're also using erroneous definitions of practical/theoretical optimization. Practical optimization is defined as optimizing something that you would actually be able to play in a game, the 'gentleman's optimization'. Theoretical optimization is optimizing in a vacuum - no DM, no players, no campaign, just 'how much of X can I get'. In neither case does it allow you to make up things from whole cloth, even as Pun-Pun.

[gooddragon1]

You are using a poorly defined rule and adding additional text that is not present in the actual RAW to justify your further actions. If you cannot present that text in the RAW, you cannot claim its presence by omission and then say it is RAW.

I'm not adding additional text, I'm acting within the boundaries of the rule. Namely the non-existent ones.

It's RAW in that the rule is there and it does allow me to do that.

If it worked the way you say then pun-pun would have to add abilities that exist rather than making them up. Which has been proven to not be the case.


EDIT: You're also using erroneous definitions of practical/theoretical optimization. Practical optimization is defined as optimizing something that you would actually be able to play in a game, the 'gentleman's optimization'. Theoretical optimization is optimizing in a vacuum - no DM, no players, no campaign, just 'how much of X can I get'. In neither case does it allow you to make up things from whole cloth, even as Pun-Pun.

... That's ... almost exactly what I said?

A cooperative DM? It's roughly the same as optimizing in a vacuum. Of course a DM with a brain is going to smite you with the DMG. That's not the point. The point is that the rules allow it. It doesn't have to make sense as long as it works by an existing rule.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not adding additional text, I'm acting within the boundaries of the rule. Namely the non-existent ones.

It's RAW in that the rule is there and it does allow me to do that.

Repeat - show that the rule 'Wish ignores item creation prerequisites' is in there. The XP Costs section gives an exception to the XP Costs of creating an item - specifically, that it costs the normal amount plus 5,000. Non-XP-related prerequisites would not belong in a section titled 'XP Costs', so claiming their absence is justification for not needing them is false.



If it worked the way you say then pun-pun would have to add abilities that exist rather than making them up. Which has been proven to not be the case.

Except that is how Pun-Pun works, the official version. The alternate version that outright makes up abilities is blatantly noted as going beyond the RAW.

[gooddragon1]

Repeat - show that the rule 'Wish ignores item creation prerequisites' is in there. The XP Costs section gives an exception to the XP Costs of creating an item - specifically, that it costs the normal amount plus 5,000. Non-XP-related prerequisites would not belong in a section titled 'XP Costs', so claiming their absence is justification for not needing them is false.

Except that is how Pun-Pun works, the official version. The alternate version that outright makes up abilities is blatantly noted as going beyond the RAW.

So you don't believe he can have any ability in the game. That's interesting.

I did. It says "create a magic item". It does not say create a magic item for which you meet the prerequisites.


Bonus Feats

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

The counter example is


Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

However, if it doesn't mention prerequisites at all we fall into a third category which is loosely defined. The DM will then need grounding in the rules to say that you can't do something that the rules are allowing because you have a rule saying that you can without a piece of text limiting it. You have provided the proof that it can be done and now it is up to the DM to provide the proof that it is limited somehow (which does not exist by the way).

I must be careful not to split hairs too much more finely or it may result in a fission reaction.

[animewatcha]

Aside from Raw-legal, very lenient DM can still say no.

Mr. Gooddragon, Step by step to 'create or improve' magic item. Go by it and show us in action what you mean. Let us pretends to be 'DMs' and pick at it. Heck, a DM can break the gate-solar method by simply giving the wizard exactly what he wants.

Some folks like me have been known to have 'trapped creativity' at times.

[gooddragon1]

Aside from Raw-legal, very lenient DM can still say no.

Mr. Gooddragon, Step by step to 'create or improve' magic item. Go by it and show us in action what you mean. Let us pretends to be 'DMs' and pick at it. Heck, a DM can break the gate-solar method by simply giving the wizard exactly what he wants.

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that?

[The Glyphstone]

So you don't believe he can have any ability in the game. That's interesting.

I did. It says "create a magic item". It does not say create a magic item for which you meet the prerequisites.



The counter example is



However, if it doesn't mention prerequisites at all we fall into a third category which is loosely defined. The DM will then need grounding in the rules to say that you can't do something that the rules are allowing because you have a rule saying that you can without a piece of text limiting it. You have provided the proof that it can be done and now it is up to the DM to provide the proof that it is limited somehow (which does not exist by the way).


Creating Magic Items

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

If you want to believe you are a optimization savant that has somehow stumbled across an exploit that no optimizer from the old WotC Boards, Gleemax, or Brilliant Gameologists ever even realized existed in 10 or 13 years of attempting to break 3.5 in every possible direction just for the fun of it, rather than just being wrong, then there's not going to be any way to dissuade you of your conviction, but that does spell the end of rational discussion. You have won, good sir, and proven all of us wrong, congratulations.

[gooddragon1]

If you want to believe you are a optimization savant that has somehow stumbled across an exploit that no optimizer from the old WotC Boards, Gleemax, or Brilliant Gameologists ever even realized existed in 10 or 13 years of attempting to break 3.5 in every possible direction just for the fun of it, rather than just being wrong, then there's not going to be any way to dissuade you of your conviction, but that does spell the end of rational discussion. You have won, good sir, and proven all of us wrong, congratulations.

Quote a rule and prove me wrong. Otherwise you have no standing.

EDIT: I'm going to go buy some candy.

[animewatcha]

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that?

Give the monster. Exactly what the monster is.

[God Imperror]

Broad interpretation of a rule that does not have many limits. Simply, because wish allows access to item creation without prerequisites and GP costs and because item creation is normally limited by those things I can say that it can create whatever I want.

I am truly sorry, you are under my honest opinion wishfully mistaken.


If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

As you clearly know, there is nothing specific in wish.


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Wish specifies that you must pay twice the normal XP cost.

Wish doesn't specify that you can create a custom magic item, thus you must refer to the magic item creation guidelines. That fall entirely on the hands of the DM or rely on existing magic items and create those.


The PHB example shows that a person could wish for a staff of the magi but as that is beyond the scope of the wish without XP expenditure it is altered.

The PHB also shows a Good Cleric casting symbol of pain an evil spell (pg. 291) so what do you try to prove with that example? That the PHB has bad examples?



The rule says I can create a magic item and then fails to limit me in a meaningful way.

So what? If it doesn't limit you in any meaningful way you resort to the rules on the DMG.

It doesn't specify that you can create any magic item you want. If you are using a magic item that doesn't exist, even if following the magic item creation guidelines you are relying on DM's fiat (since the magic item that you try to create doesn't exist).

[LordHenry]

I don't have my copy of the Phb handy.. but isn't there the sentence:"Even a wish has it's limits" ? This pretty much makes "infinite" impossible with a single wish.

[animewatcha]

Now. Now. guys. I am asking for the specific monster for his 'example' so I can get alignment and sterf. By the way, other than gooddragon. Who knows a good amount of info about gods. Especially, crafting gods or ones that deal with this sort of thing. Something I need to ask in a PM.

[Aharon]

@animewatcha
That part works. Solar, LG, MM p.12
Ask away, I'll try to answer.

[gooddragon1]

Give the monster. Exactly what the monster is.
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar)

Spell-Like Abilities

At will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 19), remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue; 3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion; 1/day—greater restoration (DC 24), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

===


I am truly sorry, you are under my honest opinion wishfully mistaken.



As you clearly know, there is nothing specific in wish.



Wish specifies that you must pay twice the normal XP cost.

Wish doesn't specify that you can create a custom magic item, thus you must refer to the magic item creation guidelines. That fall entirely on the hands of the DM or rely on existing magic items and create those.



The PHB also shows a Good Cleric casting symbol of pain an evil spell (pg. 291) so what do you try to prove with that example? That the PHB has bad examples?



So what? If it doesn't limit you in any meaningful way you resort to the rules on the DMG.

It doesn't specify that you can create any magic item you want. If you are using a magic item that doesn't exist, even if following the magic item creation guidelines you are relying on DM's fiat (since the magic item that you try to create doesn't exist).

Well, I can handle opinion, that's just RAI.

No specific rule applies. Prerequisites for creating an item would only apply if it mentioned them. The item creation feats mention those rules with clarification. Get me a wish clarification if you can find one.

It says create a magic item. It does not say create an existing magic item. If it doesn't restrict you and it doesn't clarify somewhere else then there's no problem.

It proves a precedent. DM's can houserule it away or use common sense against it but a precedent is a specific example. It depends on how you use it though.

What rule in the DMG applies? I've shown that the "limitations" of the DMG magic item creation don't apply whereas the existence of them allows for the possibility of their creation.

===


I don't have my copy of the Phb handy.. but isn't there the sentence:"Even a wish has it's limits" ? This pretty much makes "infinite" impossible with a single wish.

It certainly does say that. What I am doing however is not one of them.

==

"Wouldn't the Gods..."

Not in a vacuum as they are DM fiat.

[God Imperror]

Get me a wish clarification if you can find one.

No, I don't have to prove that you can't you have to prove that you can. And you haven't proved that, you only have shown that the wording on wish is not specific, in those cases you still follow the rules on magic item creation. And for what you try to accomplish it would require a custom one, and in order to create those there are only guidelines.


What rule in the DMG applies? I've shown that the "limitations" of the DMG magic item creation don't apply whereas the existence of them allows for the possibility of their creation.

Wish only specifies that you need to pay more XP points it does at no point mention that you don't need item creation feats or that you don't need to follow the item creation rules thus you need to follow said rules.

Unless you can mention clarification on wish, specifying that you don't have to follow item creation rules, you have to follow those rules.

[gooddragon1]

No, I don't have to prove that you can't you have to prove that you can. And you haven't proved that, you only have shown that the wording on wish is not specific, in those cases you still follow the rules on magic item creation. And for what you try to accomplish it would require a custom one, and in order to create those there are only guidelines.

Wish only specifies that you need to pay more XP points it does at no point mention that you don't need item creation feats or that you don't need to follow the item creation rules thus you need to follow said rules.

Unless you can mention clarification on wish, specifying that you don't have to follow item creation rules, you have to follow those rules.

I can create a magic item. I must pay 2x XP cost + 5000 XP. I have no other limitations stated. If it were going to limit me to the prerequisites it would have done so in the rules. I showed two examples where it says that prerequisites do and don't have to be met (bonus feats for the fighter and bonus feats for the monk). Since it doesn't mention prerequisites at all, unless you can provide a source where it clarifies that wish does then it doesn't simply by exclusion.

It doesn't say you have to be a specific class to benefit from a potion of cure light wounds. It's not inconceivable that a class could prohibit you from doing so and types such as undead certainly do not gain the benefit. But since it doesn't mention a class requirement to benefit from that item even though some items do have class requirements it doesn't apply.

I am following the magic item creation rules but not the restrictions.

[God Imperror]

All that still creates a magic item of those existent or relies on guidelines that must be approved by the dm to generate a custom magic item. You seem to be really obtuse on having precedence for stuff and all that, and you cannot list any sourced magical item that does what you want it to do, can you? You are then relying on the DM to allow that magic item to exist, since there is no precedence.

[gooddragon1]

All that still creates a magic item of those existent or relies on guidelines that must be approved by the dm to generate a custom magic item. You seem to be really obtuse on having precedence for stuff and all that, and you cannot list any sourced magical item that does what you want it to do, can you? You are then relying on the DM to allow that magic item to exist, since there is no precedence.

Wish allows creation of a magic item and does not mention that it has to be an existing one. Because it's creating a custom magic item without prerequisites the only "approval" factor the DM has is the amount of XP it costs. Guess how much XP I have to work with. He cannot say it does not exist in a vacuum as it does exist since the possibility for its existence exists. His only line of control is it's XP cost.

[TheFallenOne]

Summary of thread
1. OP thinks he has an oh so clever idea.
2. Another user explains why it doesn't work like that.
3. OP objects but fails to provide any proof.
4. Repeat 2-4.

[gooddragon1]

Summary of thread
1. OP thinks he has a oh so clever idea.
2. Another user explains why it doesn't work like that.
3. OP objects but fails to provide any proof..
4. Repeat 2-4.

1-True
2-Opinion
3-Opinion
4-:/ *shrug*

[God Imperror]

Wish allows creation of a magic item and does not mention that it has to be an existing one. Because it's creating a custom magic item without prerequisites the only "approval" factor the DM has is the amount of XP it costs. Guess how much XP I have to work with. He cannot say it does not exist in a vacuum as it does exist since the possibility for its existence exists. His only line of control is it's XP cost.

Well maybe what you are trying to create is an artifact, so bad creating those is beyond the scope of wish.

[gooddragon1]

Well maybe what you are trying to create is an artifact, so bad creating those is beyond the scope of wish.

Actually it's not. An artifact is a type of magic item. The prerequisites for it can only be met by deities with this "Craft Artifact" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#craftArtifact) which interestingly enough shows an artifact to be a magic item that exceeds the limits for such items. Fortunately, I don't have to meet those prerequisites :). Just the XP. Which I don't have to meet either.

[Twilightwyrm]

First of all, all the discussion of DM fiat, and this any discussion in this entire topic is essentially moot, because the scenario outright says this assumes a cooperative DM. Now, given what you are doing here is essentially breaking the game by level 5, I have a difficult time thinking any DM would be cooperative in this endeavor, and thus already we run into the problem that this is in fact reliant on DM fiat being on your side. Furthermore, at this point, why bother with your chain here? A truly "cooperative DM" will just let you find an unlimited Ring of Wishes, obviating the need for any of these shenanigans. So if we want any discussion, we need to assume a not necessarily cooperative DM, who can, and likely will, screw up your plan at every stage. Don't believe me? Well here are all the points in the process where a non-cooperative DM can completely shut this down (of, and for the record, never say "the DM can't do X", because rule zero, which is in fact RAW, says that they can)

1. You do not find a scroll of Planar Binding. No shops in your region sell them, and indeed there are no spellcasters available to hire to cast them. This is both the simplest solution, and actually a quite plausible one. 11th level casters are rather rare, and don't typically just sell Planar Binding Scrolls, due to the potential for abuse, so finding one is going to be exceedingly difficult, and probably beyond the reasonable scope of a 5th level wizard. (Unless the DM is cooperative, the Candle of Invocation is out entirely. Despite their relatively low cost, they require a 17th level caster, or the same alignment as the Solar, to make, and sell them, which are infinity more rare than even an 11th level one.)
2. You need to convince the Efreeti to cooperate. This will be MUCH more difficult than it sounds. The Efreeti initially gains a will save to resist being called at all, and since the minimum DC of a Planar Binding scroll is 19 (Any scroll you buy is assumed to have this unless otherwise states (And no, you can't "Just get one from a caster with a hilariously high modifier". You would typically have to seek out such an individual, and convince them to help you, an expansive quest in an of itself since you are essentially trying to find the most powerful conjurer in the land)), it has roughly a 50% chance of foiling the spell right there. Next, a single scroll of Dimensional Anchor will not work for this purpose, since it only lasts for minutes per level, meaning the Efreeti can simply Plane Shift out as soon as it ends. Further, the magic circle only works for 50 minutes, so unless you keep on casting it over and over, it will be essentially pointless. (Not to mention there are a number of combinations of the Efreeti's SLAs that can get it out regardless) And the Efreeti WILL NOT be cooperative, and likely hostile, and moment it finds out it has been summoned by a creature markedly less powerful than itself, which it WILL consider personally insulting (Lawful Evil alignment + described as being incredibly arrogant = this). So assuming you don't have an unnaturally high Charisma modifier, you have a very good chance of losing the opposed Charisma check, meaning you now need to actually convince it to help you, without any aid from the spell.
3. You mentioned offering him 50000 gold for a wish. This will not work for two reasons: 1) According to the WBL guidelines, you do not have this much money, and will not have it for another 5-6 levels and 2) Unless you got a down-on-his-luck Efreeti, this will be a paltry reward, from a comparatively weak individual the Efreeti is already hostile towards, considering Efreeti live in a city with a treasury describes to hold more money than exists in the kingdom, and likely the three surrounding kingdoms, combined. The DM can just give you a member of Efreeti nobility, ensuring this will be the case, and increasing both its arrogance and its tendency towards seeking revenge later on. Further, once the Efreeti actually hears the wish (to summon a Solar), it will be even less inclined to fulfill this wish, as it both likely hates solar, and recognizes the extreme threat to itself that such a being poses.
4) This is most important, because it means this plan is impossible by the RAW: Wish cannot replicate the Gate Spell. Wish can only replicate spells of 8th level or lower, and Gate is 9th. Even a cooperative DM, by the RAW you were so happy you were so happy to note, cannot allow you to proceed further here. So, unless you want to resort to Greater Planar Binding, which will have all the problems I mentioned turned up to 11 (since the Solar will note that you summoned it hear via Efreeti, which will leave it unfriendly at best).
5) Also important to note, again because this part of the plan is impossible by RAW: Even if Wish could acomplish this, you are relying on the Efreeti to make it for you. A Solar has 22 HD, meaning it has more HD than twice the Efreeti's caster level, meaning the Efreeti cannot, by RAW, control the Solar with a Gate spell, meaning you are screwed.
6) Even if both these things could be accomplished, you are now relying on a Solar to make your wish, and the solar is under the control of the DM, meaning it can mess with your wish at this stage. (Reason: Doesn't like you, due to aforementioned summoning if it with an Lawful EVIL Efreeti) And even if you were to convince it to grant you a wish, you are still compelled to offer it a fair trade in return for its services. You are wishing for an item of near unlimited power. There is no possible service or item you can currently offer the Solar that would be a fair trade for such an item, especially, and the Solar would not be inclined to be lenient, as it would deem you unworthy of it, even if you were Lawful Good, due to your incredibly low level, which would make leaving it in your hands a liability.
7) Finally, even if you could convince the Solar to grant you this, the DM can disallow it within the wish spell. Yes the wish spell does say "create a magic item, or add to the power of an existing one" and yes, as you have noted, this is relatively broad and vague. Therefore, as per the DMG, it is up to the DM to rule the specifics regarding it, meaning your DM CAN rule that this is impossible. Yes, there are rules for creating magic items, but there is also nothing saying, or not saying, you can use these items in the context of making a wish, as it says "Create a magic item" not "Create any magic item". Wherever there is ambiguity in the rules, the DM, and not YOU, gets to define the limits and extant of what they allow. So really, this just ties back into what everyone else here has been telling you: this relies on DM fiat regarding the Rules As Written, and therefore you can't do this in spite of the DM.
Final Note: Even within the Rules As Written, there is very little even a reasonable DM cannot prevent you from doing, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Wish spell.

[gooddragon1]

First of all, all the discussion of DM fiat, and this any discussion in this entire topic is essentially moot, because the scenario outright says this assumes a cooperative DM. Now, given what you are doing here is essentially breaking the game by level 5, I have a difficult time thinking any DM would be cooperative in this endeavor, and thus already we run into the problem that this is in fact reliant on DM fiat being on your side. Furthermore, at this point, why bother with your chain here? A truly "cooperative DM" will just let you find an unlimited Ring of Wishes, obviating the need for any of these shenanigans. So if we want any discussion, we need to assume a not necessarily cooperative DM, who can, and likely will, screw up your plan at every stage. Don't believe me? Well here are all the points in the process where a non-cooperative DM can completely shut this down (of, and for the record, never say "the DM can't do X", because rule zero, which is in fact RAW, says that they can)

1. You do not find a scroll of Planar Binding. No shops in your region sell them, and indeed there are no spellcasters available to hire to cast them. This is both the simplest solution, and actually a quite plausible one. 11th level casters are rather rare, and don't typically just sell Planar Binding Scrolls, due to the potential for abuse, so finding one is going to be exceedingly difficult, and probably beyond the reasonable scope of a 5th level wizard. (Unless the DM is cooperative, the Candle of Invocation is out entirely. Despite their relatively low cost, they require a 17th level caster, or the same alignment as the Solar, to make, and sell them, which are infinity more rare than even an 11th level one.)
2. You need to convince the Efreeti to cooperate. This will be MUCH more difficult than it sounds. The Efreeti initially gains a will save to resist being called at all, and since the minimum DC of a Planar Binding scroll is 19 (Any scroll you buy is assumed to have this unless otherwise states (And no, you can't "Just get one from a caster with a hilariously high modifier". You would typically have to seek out such an individual, and convince them to help you, an expansive quest in an of itself since you are essentially trying to find the most powerful conjurer in the land)), it has roughly a 50% chance of foiling the spell right there. Next, a single scroll of Dimensional Anchor will not work for this purpose, since it only lasts for minutes per level, meaning the Efreeti can simply Plane Shift out as soon as it ends. Further, the magic circle only works for 50 minutes, so unless you keep on casting it over and over, it will be essentially pointless. (Not to mention there are a number of combinations of the Efreeti's SLAs that can get it out regardless) And the Efreeti WILL NOT be cooperative, and likely hostile, and moment it finds out it has been summoned by a creature markedly less powerful than itself, which it WILL consider personally insulting (Lawful Evil alignment + described as being incredibly arrogant = this). So assuming you don't have an unnaturally high Charisma modifier, you have a very good chance of losing the opposed Charisma check, meaning you now need to actually convince it to help you, without any aid from the spell.
3. You mentioned offering him 50000 gold for a wish. This will not work for two reasons: 1) According to the WBL guidelines, you do not have this much money, and will not have it for another 5-6 levels and 2) Unless you got a down-on-his-luck Efreeti, this will be a paltry reward, from a comparatively weak individual the Efreeti is already hostile towards, considering Efreeti live in a city with a treasury describes to hold more money than exists in the kingdom, and likely the three surrounding kingdoms, combined. The DM can just give you a member of Efreeti nobility, ensuring this will be the case, and increasing both its arrogance and its tendency towards seeking revenge later on. Further, once the Efreeti actually hears the wish (to summon a Solar), it will be even less inclined to fulfill this wish, as it both likely hates solar, and recognizes the extreme threat to itself that such a being poses.
4) This is most important, because it means this plan is impossible by the RAW: Wish cannot replicate the Gate Spell. Wish can only replicate spells of 8th level or lower, and Gate is 9th. Even a cooperative DM, by the RAW you were so happy you were so happy to note, cannot allow you to proceed further here. So, unless you want to resort to Greater Planar Binding, which will have all the problems I mentioned turned up to 11 (since the Solar will note that you summoned it hear via Efreeti, which will leave it unfriendly at best).
5) Also important to note, again because this part of the plan is impossible by RAW: Even if Wish could acomplish this, you are relying on the Efreeti to make it for you. A Solar has 22 HD, meaning it has more HD than twice the Efreeti's caster level, meaning the Efreeti cannot, by RAW, control the Solar with a Gate spell, meaning you are screwed.
6) Even if both these things could be accomplished, you are now relying on a Solar to make your wish, and the solar is under the control of the DM, meaning it can mess with your wish at this stage. (Reason: Doesn't like you, due to aforementioned summoning if it with an Lawful EVIL Efreeti) And even if you were to convince it to grant you a wish, you are still compelled to offer it a fair trade in return for its services. You are wishing for an item of near unlimited power. There is no possible service or item you can currently offer the Solar that would be a fair trade for such an item, especially, and the Solar would not be inclined to be lenient, as it would deem you unworthy of it, even if you were Lawful Good, due to your incredibly low level, which would make leaving it in your hands a liability.
7) Finally, even if you could convince the Solar to grant you this, the DM can disallow it within the wish spell. Yes the wish spell does say "create a magic item, or add to the power of an existing one" and yes, as you have noted, this is relatively broad and vague. Therefore, as per the DMG, it is up to the DM to rule the specifics regarding it, meaning your DM CAN rule that this is impossible. Yes, there are rules for creating magic items, but there is also nothing saying, or not saying, you can use these items in the context of making a wish, as it says "Create a magic item" not "Create any magic item". Wherever there is ambiguity in the rules, the DM, and not YOU, gets to define the limits and extant of what they allow. So really, this just ties back into what everyone else here has been telling you: this relies on DM fiat regarding the Rules As Written, and therefore you can't do this in spite of the DM.
Final Note: Even within the Rules As Written, there is very little even a reasonable DM cannot prevent you from doing, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Wish spell.

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

[Twilightwyrm]

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

I know, I was assuming a DM that is not-necessarily cooperative, not a malicious or hostile one (that would make this much more difficult). This is the definition of an impartial, non-interfering DM, who simply lets actions have their natural reactions. But actions have consequences, and even within the realm of theoretical optimization, you cannot assume your actions exist entirely within a bubble, as even all other things being equal, this will not be true. Efreeti are establishes to both react this way, and mess with their granted wishes, and Solars are established to be unfriendly towards Efreeti (which is something that confused me about your method, since a Noble Djinni is both generic enough to summon with Planar Binding, and avoid much of the hostility you would encounter with an Efreeti). But even assuming that you can find everything you need, and neither Efreeti nor Solar is particularly hostile towards you, you still have two mechanical problems:

1) Wish cannot replicate a Gate spell.
2) An Efreeti has 10 HD, meaning it cannot compel a wish, as per the Gate spell, from a Solar, which has 22 HD. Even if the Efreeti could get the Gate spell, all it could do with it would be get the Solar to your location.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I would like to clarify Cooperative to Non-interfering. If there is a method by which it can work then it does. Of course the DM could just say no at any point, of course there could be no such scroll, of course the efreeti could be unreasonable... but the DM is not interfering. There's a magic item shop that you find, the efreeti is reasonable, the gate spell is replicated through an item called a candle of invocation allowing up to 34 HD to be controlled...

No DM with a brain and a reason to want to balance his campaign will allow this. That's why it's called theoretical optimization. This is the absolute theoretical limit of power.

So when we deal with just RAW and no DM interference it does work. A magic item non-specified could be any magic item (barring DM interference).

That's all fine, but it doesn't really add legitimacy to the theory. I mean, you're basically saying that as long as there is a single interpretation of the rules that can argue for it, it counts as right, even if every other interpretation argues against it.

See, the difference between something like this and something like Pun Pun, is that the rules actually spell out Pun Pun working exactly the way it does. There are specific rules for knowing about Pazuzu, for calling him, for getting a wish from him, for shapechanging into the Sarrukh, for sharing spells with your familiar, and so on and so forth. Following those rules, doing only and exactly what they strictly and unambiguously define as allowed, leads to Pun Pun.

That's optimization. When you present that course of action to a DM, they say no not because they have a different interpretation of a vague rule, but because they, as DM, are stepping in to exclude it from the game. When you present this wish exploit to a DM, they can say no because Wish doesn't specifically say you can create any magic item, or because your unlimited power item isn't an existing magic item, or because the guidelines for creating custom magic items from any source are solely under the purview of the DM, or for various other reasons that don't require changing or ignoring the rules, but only require reading them in a slightly different way than you did. That's neither fiat nor rule 0, it's merely the fact that when the DM and a player disagree on how an ambiguous rule works, the DM wins.

If Pun Pun is an example of optimization taken to its logical extreme, this would have to be an example of munchkinry taken to its logical extreme. Which is an interesting thought experiment in and of itself, up there with stuff like drowning healing and death not actually stopping you from acting, but it's not the same thing.

[animewatcha]

Okay. I've gotten access to a wish spell like ability from a monster and the DM has no power to disagree with anything except by the rules written.

I wish for an item that grants me an ability of my choice.

The DM says: Okay, but I get to set the XP cost for this wish. It is infinite.

I say: That's fine, I ignore the XP cost too as a result of the wording of a spell like ability.

This is where you stand. Where in the rules will it stop me from doing that? Another thing I noticed. You get 1 shot a day on that wish. So make it count.


Actually where we stand stops at the 'an ability of my choice' since the rest is pretty much irrelevant via the spell like ability thing.

So far. Still gotta check with aphelon on question I asked him.

1. Need to mention method of getting in control of said 'solar'

2. So far until mentioning of method, so far going by what you said, you can simply not at all within your character lifetime and not within what you posted.

3. Another person get controls of your 'solar' just in time and you are outta a wish.

4. <insert deity here> says no.

5. Antimagic field. Mage's disjunction. Traps.

Given the above, I will allow "reasonable to me" alterations to your post one time. And only one time unless I say otherwise. Another thing I noticed on the solar. You get one shot a day on that spell like ability. So make it count.

[gooddragon1]

I know, I was assuming a DM that is not-necessarily cooperative, not a malicious or hostile one (that would make this much more difficult). This is the definition of an impartial, non-interfering DM, who simply lets actions have their natural reactions. But actions have consequences, and even within the realm of theoretical optimization, you cannot assume your actions exist entirely within a bubble, as even all other things being equal, this will not be true. Efreeti are establishes to both react this way, and mess with their granted wishes, and Solars are established to be unfriendly towards Efreeti (which is something that confused me about your method, since a Noble Djinni is both generic enough to summon with Planar Binding, and avoid much of the hostility you would encounter with an Efreeti). But even assuming that you can find everything you need, and neither Efreeti nor Solar is particularly hostile towards you, you still have two mechanical problems:

1) Wish cannot replicate a Gate spell.
2) An Efreeti has 10 HD, meaning it cannot compel a wish, as per the Gate spell, from a Solar, which has 22 HD. Even if the Efreeti could get the Gate spell, all it could do with it would be get the Solar to your location.

Wish creates an item: Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)
Item casts Gate at 17th level. Also Efreeti casts SLA at 12th CL

Heat (Ex)

An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.
Spell-Like Abilities

At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.


===


Actually where we stand stops at the 'an ability of my choice' since the rest is pretty much irrelevant via the spell like ability thing.

So far. Still gotta check with aphelon on question I asked him.

1. Need to mention method of getting in control of said 'solar'

2. So far until mentioning of method, so far going by what you said, you can simply not at all within your character lifetime and not within what you posted.

3. Another person get controls of your 'solar' just in time and you are outta a wish.

4. <insert deity here> says no.

5. Antimagic field. Mage's disjunction. Traps.

Given the above, I will allow "reasonable to me" alterations to your post one time. And only one time unless I say otherwise. Another thing I noticed on the solar. You get one shot a day on that spell like ability. So make it count.

See above for gate rules.

See above sentence.

DM fiat.

DM fiat.

DM fiat.

===


That's all fine, but it doesn't really add legitimacy to the theory. I mean, you're basically saying that as long as there is a single interpretation of the rules that can argue for it, it counts as right, even if every other interpretation argues against it.

See, the difference between something like this and something like Pun Pun, is that the rules actually spell out Pun Pun working exactly the way it does. There are specific rules for knowing about Pazuzu, for calling him, for getting a wish from him, for shapechanging into the Sarrukh, for sharing spells with your familiar, and so on and so forth. Following those rules, doing only and exactly what they strictly and unambiguously define as allowed, leads to Pun Pun.

That's optimization. When you present that course of action to a DM, they say no not because they have a different interpretation of a vague rule, but because they, as DM, are stepping in to exclude it from the game. When you present this wish exploit to a DM, they can say no because Wish doesn't specifically say you can create any magic item, or because your unlimited power item isn't an existing magic item, or because the guidelines for creating custom magic items from any source are solely under the purview of the DM, or for various other reasons that don't require changing or ignoring the rules, but only require reading them in a slightly different way than you did. That's neither fiat nor rule 0, it's merely the fact that when the DM and a player disagree on how an ambiguous rule works, the DM wins.

If Pun Pun is an example of optimization taken to its logical extreme, this would have to be an example of munchkinry taken to its logical extreme. Which is an interesting thought experiment in and of itself, up there with stuff like drowning healing and death not actually stopping you from acting, but it's not the same thing.

Ever heard of the vigilante prestige class? It has 20 3rd level spell slots.


... Take the Vigilante from Complete Adventurer, for instance. Anyone out there seriously believe that his rather abrupt jump from 1 third level spell at level 6 to 20 at level 7 is NOT a mistake? ... "Rules are rules! The rulebook says 20 third level spells at seventh level! If you do it any other way, you're houseruling! I'm gonna make some GREAT builds based on this rule!"

This is related to what I'm doing.

I'm saying that if a DM didn't actively stop me I could create a magic item through enough XP without the prerequisites that happens to be an artifact that can do anything. You guys are hanging up on the "but it doesn't say you can do that specifically" and "There are rules here and here that mention prerequisites" and "I'd never allow that and I'd do this to stop you". The rules don't say specifically that a greatsword deals damage to an Orc on a successful hit either. It mentions their damage but it never mentions Orcs at all. Yet we know that they do. I have shown that the rules mention prerequisites when they are required and very often the rules don't mention prerequisites when they aren't required. The wish spell should have mentioned whether or not it has prerequisites but it doesn't. If it doesn't then you can't just tack them on and say it does as that isn't part of the spell unless you plan on houseruling. A pillar of the pun-pun build is that he wishes for a candle of invocation and through that summons an efreeti who he wishes for more candles of invocation as needed. That doesn't specify how it ignores the prerequisites but I have. I have shown that without a restriction on the use of the ability it can work with a DM who does not interfere. That's the premise. The DM does not interfere.

[animewatcha]

1. Please do read the whole spell then. As creating this is quite the involved task to account for every ability Even then, casting the spell/spell-like ability with your approach still screws you over. You might not even get the solar you want at all.

2. By fine print, you can still not get it within your character's lifetime. The part of 'within what you posted' has do to with number 1.

3. Usually it is, but in DnD world people just like you wanna get exactly what you want. So it would be perfectly normal within the rules for the solar's day to be consisting of going through 8787587 wizards/sorcerors/etc. within their demiplanes bending the rules around magic.

4. Whether or not the DM is involved, it is perfectly for Deities to 'say no' to this type of thing so that mortals and stay out of their power range, 'keep them in their place', etc.

5. You can claim it as DM fiat, but in DnD world. Maybe there are others that don't want **** like yours being used against them. Like say the solar itself.

Last chance before I ask this thread to be closed. Also, you also have to be same aligned-good yourself to gate in a solar via candle of invocation period and <insert methods here that DM lets natural course taken of> so a good character doesn't screw stuff up.

sidenote: sorry. Editing a lot due to mistakes made on my end. Really late at night for me.

[gooddragon1]

1. Please do read the whole spell then. As creating this is quite the involved task to account for every ability Even then, casting the spell/spell-like ability with your approach still screws you over. You might not even get the solar you want at all.

2. By fine print, you can still not get it within your character's lifetime. The part of 'within what you posted' has do to with number 1.

3. Usually it is, but in DnD world people just like you wanna get exactly what you want. So it would be perfectly normal within the rules for the solar's day to be consisting of going through 8787587 wizards/sorcerors/etc. within their demiplanes bending the rules around magic.

4. Whether or not the DM is involved, it is perfectly for Deities to 'say no' to this type of thing so that mortals and stay out of their power range, 'keep them in their place', etc.

5. You can claim it as DM fiat, but in DnD world. Maybe there are others that don't want **** like yours being used against them. Like say the solar itself.

Last chance before I ask this thread to be closed. Also, you also have to be good yourself to gate in a solar period and <insert methods here that DM lets natural course taken of> so a good character doesn't screw stuff up.

I want you to read the following: I assume no DM interference. The DM might as well not even be there. I am optimizing in a void.

Next, character wealth by level for a 5th level character is 9000 gp. A candle of invocation costs 8400 gp. I assume the DM will let me start with one and I will have 600 gp remaining.

I assume a lot of things of the DM in that he will not actively try to stop me. He will not use traps, he will not say the solar is unavailable, he will not get mad at me for doing this. I effectively assume the DM is a computer and that I'm playing a computer game version of D&D. If you want to ask for the thread to be closed that's your option, but I'm not going to try to convince you just because you say you'll do that if I don't.

Note: the DM could say Pazuzu is unavailable too. For the purposes of the thread he is available and willing just like the default of the rules states.

[animewatcha]

Anyone noticing that he keeps reaching for DM fiat sterf, when I brought in stuff that is very much in character for beings like Deities to do this type of thing, regardless of DM. Very much within rules and fluff and stuff of the DnD world.

Also, gooddragon. Last hint. "Too general."

[gooddragon1]

Anyone noticing that he keeps reaching for DM fiat sterf, when I brought in stuff that is very much in character for **** like Deities to do this type of this, regardless of DM. Very much within rules and fluff and stuff of the DnD world.

Also, gooddragon. Last hint. "Too general."

By your same logic the gods would stop pun-pun. And they would. We assume for the purpose of this thread that none of that happens.

Your hint confuses me.

[LTwerewolf]

Has anyone mentioned that within the world, the dm allowing an item to exist in itself is a fiat? Rule 0 expects the dm to create their own worlds where these items may not even be possible.

[animewatcha]

But with the pun-pun. It is actually acknowledged without the 'whining' that you are doing. Here you are in the bootcamp 'oh crap! That is actually being usable against me. WAHHH *crying eyes*'.

Expanding on 'too general', you choose to try and 'gate in a solar' but the 'solar' denies your request due to it being a deity or a unique being. Dwell on that please.

@Ltwerewolf: That is entering into territory that I am trying to get gooddragon to understand, but he isn't.

[gooddragon1]

But with the pun-pun. It is actually acknowledged without the 'whining' that you are doing. Here you are in the bootcamp 'oh crap! That is actually being usable against me. WAHHH *crying eyes*'.

Expanding on 'too general', you choose to try and 'gate in a solar' but the 'solar' denies your request due to it being a deity or a unique being. Dwell on that please.

@Ltwerewolf: That is entering into territory that I am trying to get gooddragon to understand, but he isn't.

Then I acknowledge everything it does.

Now listen to this: My DM is a computer. It's not capable of what you are stating.

Please take the above line into careful consideration for your next post.

[LTwerewolf]

Even every possible thing going in his favor, just the natural way these creatures would react to the situation would prevent this from happening. But let's say it works out and the item is miraculously created. What's to stop the original wizard from turning him to ash before he can even equip it?

A good wizard would not want someone dealing with evil beings to posses something that powerful and an evil wizard would kill him just to take it. A neutral wizard probably for both.

[gooddragon1]

Even every possible thing going in his favor, just the natural way these creatures would react to the situation would prevent this from happening. But let's say it works out and the item is miraculously created. What's to stop the original wizard from turning him to ash before he can even equip it?

A good wizard would not want someone dealing with evil beings to posses something that powerful and an evil wizard would kill him just to take it. A neutral wizard probably for both.

The fact that it is a computer simulation. That is not programmed to happen.

[LTwerewolf]

The fact that it is a computer simulation. That is not programmed to happen.

If we're going there then how about this: it is not programmed for you to have a candle. We can create arbitrary rules that force things to work or not too.

[animewatcha]

Computers, devils, and lawyers. All can screw you over due to 'too general.'

Please take the above line into careful consideration for your next post.

@Ltwerewolf: Out of curiousity. Mind PMing me what you think I am trying to get at cause it does seem like we are of one mind of what I'm trying to get at. Just curious.

[gooddragon1]

I see. Well, I assume the computer uses only the written rules and doesn't deviate from them. It doesn't assume that a solar can resist or be unavailable because that isn't stated in the monster entry. It doesn't assume that I can't start with a candle of invocation if I have enough GP because of limited access. It doesn't assume that a trap or the deities or something else stops me because that isn't listed as a direct result in the rules. Moreover it doesn't assume those last 2 things happen because my instances occur independent of the fluff of the campaign which allows for deities to stop me or Solars to be uncooperative.

My DM is cooperative as long as I don't break the written rules.

[Theoretical Optimization]What could happen if everything went right as long as you followed the rules? Here's what: <insert title of this thread> [/Theoretical Optimization]

My DM is not you. He does not care what you would do. He has no mind for campaign balance. He just follows the rules even if they are broken.

Stick your head in a bucket of water for stabilization? Sounds fine by the rules he says.

Alter self to turn into an undead when you're a human without supporting rules? Nope, the rules don't allow for that.

Power word stun scribed in 1 word and you want to scribe more? Sorry, you're going to have to wait. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)

[animewatcha]

The computer can perfectly assume all that 'we are trying get through to you' can perfectly happen and naturally too. The 'solar' that the gate reaches rightfully saying F U due to you being unwise in your use of the gate. Similar logic applies to the usage of the wish spell-like ability.

-editing- Part of what I am trying to get at lies in that very comic too.

[gooddragon1]

The computer can perfectly assume all that 'we are trying get through to you' can perfectly happen and naturally too. The 'solar' that the gate reaches rightfully saying F U due to you being unwise in your use of the gate. Similar logic applies to the usage of the wish spell-like ability.

Well, by the computations and figures my DM is presenting to me, that's not what happens at all.

Look, I honestly don't care how you feel about it or whether or not you feel it's broken. I know it's broken. I'm just engaging in a mental exercise. If you're going to keep saying that it wouldn't happen because of fluff reasons I'm going to stop listening.

[LTwerewolf]

What you're calling "fluff" is "how the creatures respond." That's part of the rules as written. It's also written very clearly.

[animewatcha]

Actually, by the computations and figures your DM is presenting to you, it actually is what is happening. For all the smarts in the world, you certainly aren't wise in your approach. ( Hmm.. Intelligence. Hmm.. Wisdom. )

My posts reign true regardless of how I feel about it or whether or not I think it's broken. Trying to get you to learn what your screw up ( and the concept applies in reallife too ) is in this 'mental exercise' but you aren't getting it. I can't help it if the 'fluff reason' of 'too general' keeps blocking your thing.

You asked how in the rules you would not get your magic item and I am giving you what you want. It's your problem if you don't want to accept it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Has anyone else read gooddragon's sig?

I think it explains this thread in a nutshell.

on topic: you wanna use precedence as an argument huh?

Look at all the other abilities listed under wish's safe list. These are the things that are unquestionbly within the power of the spell, whether cast as a spell or a spell-like or even a supernatural ability. Trying to eke more power out of the spell results in bad, bad things.

Are you honestly arguing that creating a magic item that exceeds these other abilities by an unambiguously, nearly-infinite margin is actually within the power of the spell?

This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.

Then there's the specific trumps general argument. Any time a rule makes an exception to a general rule, you follow the general rule but change it for the exception.

In this case, the general rule is that creating magic items requires feats, gold, xp, and (occasionally) a spell or two. Wish makes a specific exception for the xp cost, and it's not unreasonable to assume that, since wish can replicate any spell of up to 6th level and any arcane spell of up to 8th, that it stands in for the spell prerequisites. By the same token, since the spell can generate up to 2500gp worth of non-magical material, it could stand in for the gp cost of creating an item up to that figure. Interpreting the spell to bypass the feat restriction is completely arbitrary.

Your "trick" only, unambiguously, bypasses the xp cost. The rest of your interpretation is completely arbitrary, and quite clearly exceeds the power of the spell, by any reasonable interpretation.

More importantly; RAW, as used in the context of theoretical optimization, means what the rules clearly and unambiguously say a character can do with no interpretation at all. The moment you interpret a rule, it's not RAW anymore, at least not by the accepted definition of RAW the community as agreed upon.

[gooddragon1]

What you're calling "fluff" is "how the creatures respond." That's part of the rules as written. It's also written very clearly.

I'd love to know where that's written. Seriously. Where is it written that they'll just deny you. That they can ignore a gate spell compelling them as they lack the HD to do so. That when you wish for a solar and the closest one with the right HD gets pulled in that it can do anything to say no?

But I want you to know, my DMbot says it does work and doesn't complain.

===


Has anyone else read gooddragon's sig?

I think it explains this thread in a nutshell.

on topic: you wanna use precedence as an argument huh?

Look at all the other abilities listed under wish's safe list. These are the things that are unquestionbly within the power of the spell, whether cast as a spell or a spell-like or even a supernatural ability. Trying to eke more power out of the spell results in bad, bad things.

Are you honestly arguing that creating a magic item that exceeds these other abilities by an unambiguously, nearly-infinite margin is actually within the power of the spell?

This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.

Then there's the specific trumps general argument. Any time a rule makes an exception to a general rule, you follow the general rule but change it for the exception.

In this case, the general rule is that creating magic items requires feats, gold, xp, and (occasionally) a spell or two. Wish makes a specific exception for the xp cost, and it's not unreasonable to assume that, since wish can replicate any spell of up to 6th level and any arcane spell of up to 8th, that it stands in for the spell prerequisites. By the same token, since the spell can generate up to 2500gp worth of non-magical material, it could stand in for the gp cost of creating an item up to that figure. Interpreting the spell to bypass the feat restriction is completely arbitrary.

Your "trick" only, unambiguously, bypasses the xp cost. The rest of your interpretation is completely arbitrary, and quite clearly exceeds the power of the spell, by any reasonable interpretation.

More importantly; RAW, as used in the context of theoretical optimization, means what the rules clearly and unambiguously say a character can do with no interpretation at all. The moment you interpret a rule, it's not RAW anymore, at least not by the accepted definition of RAW the community as agreed upon.
You: This is completely unreasonable under any interpretation of the rules.
Me: Says you.

You miss a part, creating a magic item normally requires those. The text of wish specifies that you must spend a certain amount of XP to perform that action and does not mention prerequisites as a requirement.


When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

I am using only the rules as they are presented. No prerequisite mentioned. No prerequisite required.

For your final part: I am using the spell as it is worded and in a vacuum with very limited access to anything else.

[Psyren]

I still maintain that the Efreet is the weak link in this chain. A Wish can, by RAW, actually do anything at all. There is a list of safe uses, but going outside these uses is only unsafe for PCs.

Where I am going with this, is that an Efreet can grant a wish to any non-genie - your worst enemy, or an angry deity, an organization charged with maintaining balance over the world etc. - to strip you of every iota of power this trick would have gained you, render your uber-item nonfunctional, steal it from/turn it against you etc. Only the DM's whim will stop this "counter-wish" from functioning exactly as desired, which is the fiat you seek to avoid.

Even if your trick works, given the stated nature of Efreeti, they will be more than happy to screw you over in this fashion long before you've gained any significant power in your magic stick of magicalness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By your same logic the gods would stop pun-pun. And they would. We assume for the purpose of this thread that none of that happens.

The gods stopping pun pun is ambiguous.

The gods are aware of events in the world only as they pertain to the individual god's portfolio. Pun pun's actions bounce from one portfolio to another quite rapidly, and no individual action would be worthy of garnering divine attention.

There's also the issue of only greater gods being able to forsee the future, and only by a season or so at that.

Basically, the gods get as long as it takes completed pun pun to jack his abilities beyond their power to both notice and stop him.

Pun pun's construction probably goes unnoticed, his final rise to power is a craps-shoot.

[LTwerewolf]

I can create an ai dm that won't allow it. It's not hard, and still RAW. That yours does is not proof. Also it's written in the various sections on how the various creatures act. The paragon of lawful good will not reward you for interacting with an evil outsider. The angel will almost definitely make the save against the generic item or against the efreeti because they have a high will save, and that's assuming the one called doesn't happen to be unique.

Edit: I'd love to see his face if a real dm made it all seem to work, then he puts on the item and instantly is disintegrated.

[animewatcha]

Where it's written is what I am about your usage of the candle and the wish. Your DMbot says what you want 'can' work and doesn't complain. Your method of getting to work, though. Another story altogether due to your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

[gooddragon1]

Well, I'm still ignoring all the fluff.

If someone wants to provide me with some crunch to dispute I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Try to please everyone and you will please no one.

EDIT2: I OFFICIALLY CEDE THAT BY FLUFF THIS COMBO DOES NOT WORK. Raw is another matter.

[LTwerewolf]

Well, I'm still ignoring all the fluff.

If someone wants to provide me with some crunch to dispute I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Try to please everyone and you will please no one.

All I see here is "well I want it to work, so I'm ignoring the reasons it won't." Good day sir.

[gooddragon1]

All I see here is "well I want it to work, so I'm ignoring the reasons it won't." Good day sir.

Again, says you.

[animewatcha]

Except that the fluff you are trying to ignore is kicking your rear right now.

The crunch that you are seeking is being provided to you. Your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

[gooddragon1]

Except that the fluff you are trying to ignore is kicking your rear right now.

The crunch that you are seeking is being provided to you. Your poor usage of the candle and ( if you can ever get to this stage ) the wish.

The fluff does not exist for me. I don't even notice it. My responses to your other statements can be seen earlier in this thread and I will not repeat them.

EDIT: RAW and fluff used in a sentence like that. Well, not much I can say about that.

EDIT2: I'm not going to dignify the post below this one with another post. I'll just try my best to ignore those ones from here on out.

[animewatcha]

By RAW, the fluff and the crunch is kicking your rear due to 'too general.'

[LTwerewolf]

Fluff is as written. It matters. Punpun works with the fluff, there is no dispute. That's what makes him such a good thought experiment. He works within ALL the rules, not just the mechanical ones.

[gooddragon1]

Fluff is as written. It matters. Punpun works with the fluff, there is no dispute. That's what makes him such a good thought experiment. He works within ALL the rules, not just the mechanical ones.


Now you have your candle.
4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.
5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.

Source. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)

Are you sure?

[LTwerewolf]

Using an efreeti is not the big problem, it's using the solar afterwards that creates the bigger mess. Plus the efreeti has a much lower will save than the solar, so there's more of a chance you'll actually bind it. Yes, I'm sure.

[gooddragon1]

Using an efreeti is not the big problem, it's using the solar afterwards that creates the bigger mess. Plus the efreeti has a much lower will save than the solar, so there's more of a chance you'll actually bind it. Yes, I'm sure.


Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.
Planar Travel

As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.
Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.
XP Cost

1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).

Hmm. That's strange. I used the find function to find the word bind. Gave me a "phrase not found" response. Could you do me a favor and underline that word in there for me? Or where it says they get a saving throw?

[animewatcha]

Within the comic that gooddragon posted, gooddragon is the lady headbanded character while the rest of us are trying to be the male spellcaster trying to explain things to her.

[The Glyphstone]

Source. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)

Are you sure?

George Lucas has stats in the Complete Film Directors sourcebook.

[gooddragon1]

George Lucas has stats in the Complete Film Directors sourcebook.

Those stats are 3.0 and we use only 3.5 even if 3.0 could easily be converted. Sorry.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Those stats are 3.0 and we use only 3.5 even if 3.0 could easily be converted. Sorry.

*buzzer*

Wrong again. RAW, 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 as long as it hasn't been updated.

Also, what am I, chopped liver? I see no response to my previous post.

[LTwerewolf]

*buzzer*

Wrong again. RAW, 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 as long as it hasn't been updated.

Also, what am I, chopped liver? I see no response to my previous post.

Kelb let's not pretend he's got one. He'll accuse you of quoting fluff and continue on.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.

[TuggyNE]

OK, here's the deal. Most of the trick works, although the use of Efreeti is needlessly dangerous.

What's entirely unclear, though, is how to unambiguously justify ignoring all crafting prerequisites and limits on wish to create a custom item. If those three bolded problems can be accounted for reasonably, I think we can safely say the whole sequence is viable for TO. Lacking that, however... not so much.

Edit:
Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.

The item has CL 17th listed in its stat block; presumably that's what it's there for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb let's not pretend he's got one. He'll accuse you of quoting fluff and continue on.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.

........... :confused: What?

I said he was dead wrong on that point.

Edit: or is that in response to my other post?

[Psyren]

A major difference between Pun-Pun and this trick is that Pun-Pun can gain epic spells and this can't. This is because epic spells cannot be stored in items.

Without epic spells to protect you, no ability you store in your super-stick will be strong enough. You will finish imbuing it with every non-epic ability known to mankind and it will be suddenly gone from your grasp once a deity or other significant figure decides to relieve you of it. You also cannot turn your super-staff into an artifact, because that would count as "creating an artifact" which you cannot do via Wish or any other non-deity method.

[NichG]

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved, but honestly, if you think that it works this way then your method is far far too roundabout. Using the same logic as your "'add powers' means 'I can define new ones'" step, just use the spell research system (not the epic spell research system, just the regular one) to create a cantrip that does anything.

The spell research system says 'come up with a spell, run it past the DM, and he will okay it or not'. Under your permissive DM assumption there is no reason you could not use this to make a cantrip that does anything. This is far more general than the assumption that 'powers' means something other than the specific indexed set of powers that already exist in the system.

However, things like that are usually excluded from TO because they depend in some way on the DM actually making a decision, whereas TO generally takes place in a DM-less environment. Or to put it another way, if you insist that the DM must 'choose an xp cost for what you ask for', you're already requiring the existence of an interacting DM, as opposed to the higher standard of things that work completely independently of the DM.

[Nanoblack]

There are several posters in this thread that could use a chill pill as their posts are bordering on the personal attack territory.

One of the things assumed in TO (AFAIK) is that anything related to roleplaying just doesn't happen unless directed by the optimizer in question. So, yes if he attacks a creature it will defend itself, but godly interference is a no-no. Sorry if that bit is old news, but it needed to be said.

Second, gate specifically states the called creature is controlled if its HD is no more than twice your caster level, so no bickering there. (Also the candle is CL 17 according to its stat block, so that means up to 34 hd)

That's really all the input I have. I have no opinion on the inner workings of the rest of this trick.

[LTwerewolf]

........... :confused: What?

I said he was dead wrong on that point.

Edit: or is that in response to my other post?

The second part of my post was in response to him, not you. I was in full support of what you said.

Then again bringing kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing mike tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.

[gooddragon1]

A major difference between Pun-Pun and this trick is that Pun-Pun can gain epic spells and this can't. This is because epic spells cannot be stored in items.

Without epic spells to protect you, no ability you store in your super-stick will be strong enough. You will finish imbuing it with every non-epic ability known to mankind and it will be suddenly gone from your grasp once a deity or other significant figure decides to relieve you of it. You also cannot turn your super-staff into an artifact, because that would count as "creating an artifact" which you cannot do via Wish or any other non-deity method.


Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells

Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.

But that's not important. What's important is that my item is called the I win stick.

Ability: At will, no action required, you may permanently gain any number of abilities.

I gain the following abilities among many others:

Lolwut (Ex)

You may cast any epic spell even when it isn't your turn and without any of the components.

Roflcopter (Ex)

You gain infinite divine rank and may use any divine ability at will.

Trollface (Ex)

You win the game.

EDIT: I admit I have to ask him to assign an XP amount but that's really all I have to worry about and given that he can't assign anything I can't work with it's not really a problem.


There are several posters in this thread that could use a chill pill as their posts are bordering on the personal attack territory.

One of the things assumed in TO (AFAIK) is that anything related to roleplaying just doesn't happen unless directed by the optimizer in question. So, yes if he attacks a creature it will defend itself, but godly interference is a no-no. Sorry if that bit is old news, but it needed to be said.

Second, gate specifically states the called creature is controlled if its HD is no more than twice your caster level, so no bickering there. (Also the candle is CL 17 according to its stat block, so that means up to 34 hd)

That's really all the input I have. I have no opinion on the inner workings of the rest of this trick.

Someone who gets it.

[NichG]

EDIT: I admit I have to ask him to assign an XP amount but that's really all I have to worry about and given that he can't assign anything I can't work with it's not really a problem.


My question would be, though, if something in the rules said 'This feat allows you to qualify for any class', would you interpret that to mean that it also gives you the ability to invent new classes and take them?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The second part of my post was in response to him, not you. I was in full support of what you said.

Then again bringing kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing mike tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.

O_o I had no idea I had earned such a reputation.

May I quote you? :smallbiggrin:

[gooddragon1]

My question would be, though, if something in the rules said 'This feat allows you to qualify for any class', would you interpret that to mean that it also gives you the ability to invent new classes and take them?

You'd be able to take certain classes like barbarian while being lawful. Though in a vacuum it's not inconceivable that you could do that. Normally class creation is approved or not by a DM but when your DM doesn't prevent you it's completely possible as you now have gained access to class creation rules without restrictions due to the feat not being specific about the rest.

Though I'd like to note something: My quoted example of pun pun shows creation of a magic item without prerequisites. People swore that it was different and I showed it to be the same. If you're going to go against mine you're going against that too.

[LTwerewolf]

O_o I had no idea I had earned such a reputation.

May I quote you? :smallbiggrin:

You may. You seem to pretty much end any argument over RAW or RAI.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You may. You seem to pretty much end any argument over RAW or RAI.

Thank you. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

But that's not important. What's important is that my item is called the I win stick.

Ability: At will, no action required, you may permanently gain any number of abilities.

By tying all your powers to an item, however, you invoke the necessary intervention of a DM - because the magic item guidelines clearly state that judgment is required to finally price a magic item. TO doesn't work by relying on an infinitely-lenient DM - it works by relying on an absent one. Pun-Pun works by abusing listed abilities (e.g. Manipulate Form) not by inventing new ones like your Roflcopter above.

In short, the major difference between the two:
- Pun-Pun requires a DM to stop.
- Yours requires a DM to start.

[gooddragon1]

By tying all your powers to an item, however, you invoke the necessary intervention of a DM - because the magic item guidelines clearly state that judgment is required to finally price a magic item. TO doesn't work by relying on an infinitely-lenient DM - it works by relying on an absent one. Pun-Pun works by abusing listed abilities (e.g. Manipulate Form) not by inventing new ones like your Roflcopter above.

In short, the major difference between the two:
- Pun-Pun requires a DM to stop.
- Yours requires a DM to start.


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.


Craft Artifact
Prerequisites

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll.
Benefit

The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Crafts, knowledge, magic.

I choose to ignore the above quote and all other necessary prerequisites.

I create an item of my choice by ignoring all prerequisites other than XP which doesn't matter. I get exactly what I want with no problems.

[animewatcha]

What does do you guys say about Wish creating epic magic items? Cause the spell description says create magic item not create epic magic item.

Actually, by the rules of the metamagic thinger he posted, this item can't be wished for since that would make it an 'artifact' since only artifacts can contain magic of the power that he wants to use. Gotta love market price which this kind of power would definitely drive into epic-level gaming which is not normally available.

@nanoblock: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.

[gooddragon1]

What does do you guys say about Wish creating epic magic items? Cause the spell description says create magic item not create epic magic item.

Actually, by the rules of the metamagic thinger he posted, this item can't be wished for since that would make it an 'artifact' since only artifacts can contain magic of the power that he wants to use. Gotta love market price which this kind of power would definitely drive into epic-level gaming which is normally available.

@nanoblock: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.

See my above post.

[Psyren]

Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.

Candle of Invocation is a magic item in the DMG whether there is a DM or not. Your staff of i-win with multiple custom abilities is not, therefore you need a DM to create it for you.

[animewatcha]

See my above points. Only major artifacts can contain that kind of power that you want to make. Artifacts are not doable via wish. There is other specific things within gate and wish and sterf that need to be followable aside from the ignoring of crafting prereqs. That and your request is still 'too general'. By RAW, you are SOL.

all he is gating is 'a solar'. He is wishing for the making of something 'that can do all this'. Too generally in the wishing and RAW and he can't even get to use his I win Stick.

[Nanoblack]

@nanoblack: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.

Pertinent bit in the spoiler below.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

You're going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by "control methods". Another thing about TO is spells like these are assumed to call the most average and generic specimen of whatever the spell allows. For it to bring anything else would be DM fiat and is excluded from these thought exercises for good reason.

And yes, he only would get one wish, but he only needs one to get his magic item. Which after re-reading the remainder of the OP, I will have to side with Psyren as he seems to have a firm grasp of the rules.

Where the custom magic item guidelines come into this argument can be pretty ambiguous, but I don't believe "grant any ability" is located anywhere within those guidelines. There is the precedent of items like ring of evasion for turning class features into items, but I would have to say that unless there exists an item that grants that ability, you would not be able to use it in this situation even with the wish spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.



I choose to ignore the above quote and all other necessary prerequisites.

I create an item of my choice by ignoring all prerequisites other than XP which doesn't matter. I get exactly what I want with no problems.

Wish creating the candle doesn't necessarily ignore all the prereq's of creating the candle of invocation. It only definitely ignores the craft wondrous item feat, which pun pun has room for before he begins that journey, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming he doesn't get the wish from a creature with the feat. It's been a while since I last looked at pun pun in detail.

I explained how all that is true in my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13909369&postcount=71), which you continue to ignore. I would appreciate it if you did not continue to ignore me. :smallannoyed:

[gooddragon1]

Creating the candle doesn't necessarily ignore all the prereq's of creating the candle of invocation. It only definitely ignores the craft wondrous item feat, which pun pun has room for before he begins that journey, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming he doesn't get the wish from a creature with the feat. It's been a while since I last looked at pun pun in detail.

I explained how all that is true in my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13909369&postcount=71), which you continue to ignore. I would appreciate it if you did not continue to ignore me. :smallannoyed:


Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite

Caster level 3rd.

Pun pun is a 1st level character.

Now for the following:

Because a candle of invocation can be created without the necessary caster level, feats, and other requirements (that efreeti doesn't have them either) I assume NO requirements other than XP though I may benefit from all of them as I ignore them.

This is a requirement (I ignore it):

Craft Artifact
Prerequisites

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll.
Benefit

The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Crafts, knowledge, magic.

exceed the normal limits for such items

I exceed the normal limits without limits.

I create anything I want.

[animewatcha]

Pertinent bit in the spoiler below.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

You're going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by "control methods". Another thing about TO is spells like these are assumed to call the most average and generic specimen of whatever the spell allows. For it to bring anything else would be DM fiat and is excluded from these thought exercises for good reason.

And yes, he only would get one wish, but he only needs one to get his magic item. Which after re-reading the remainder of the OP, I will have to side with Psyren as he seems to have a firm grasp of the rules.

Where the custom magic item guidelines come into this argument can be pretty ambiguous, but I don't believe "grant any ability" is located anywhere within those guidelines. There is the precedent of items like ring of evasion for turning class features into items, but I would have to say that unless there exists an item that grants that ability, you would not be able to use it in this situation even with the wish spell.

For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.

If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems. Otherwise, by RAW and as per 'the computer', he gets screwed.

This thread went from mental exercise of 'By RAW, prevent this' to actually being prevented by RAW with citations and sterf to 'Oh crap. I can't win. I'm just gonna conveniently ignore any evidence against me.'

[gooddragon1]

For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.

If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems.

This is TO. I've spelled out the full word many times. You've merely chosen to ignore it.

[Psyren]

This is TO. I've spelled out the full word many times. You've merely chosen to ignore it.

And as I and others have pointed out many times, true TO assumes the absence of DM assistance (or opposition.) Your exercise here is not TO, because it requires a DM's help (whereas Pun-Pun does not.)

It's like calling a custom spell TO; they are not, because they require DM assistance, just like your magic stick would.

[gooddragon1]

And as I and others have pointed out many times, true TO assumes the absence of DM assistance (or opposition.) Your exercise here is not TO, because it requires a DM's help (whereas Pun-Pun does not.)

It's like calling a custom spell TO; they are not, because they require DM assistance, just like your magic stick would.

Then what do you call pun pun using a candle of invocation generated through an efreeti? What do you call the custom abilities he gains?


Manipulate Form (Su): At will, Pil'it'ith can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, he can cause one alteration of his choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 23 Fortitude negates both the change and the unconsciousness.

Pil'it'ith may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. He may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to Pil'it'ith's corresponding score. Pil'it'ith may also grant the target an extraordinary ability or remove one from it.

The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=3

[Psyren]

How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.

[animewatcha]

This is not TO, but 'by raw, stop this from happening' in a nutshell or atleast started out as before it became 'oh crap. my way doesn't work. wahh.' Something that you have chosen to ignore because we killed your method.

Palilil: Even then, manipulate form from that guy has specific rules/restrictions in which the form is given. Going by the other guys ( have not seen it myself though riding on their word ?), Pun-Pun gains his while still following rules/restrictions of getting said abilities and sterf while 'getting around the prereqs' via previous gained abilities and sterf.

[gooddragon1]

How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.

It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?


Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as: I Win Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

[LTwerewolf]

How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.

Not sure why he doesn't just change his idea to "I use wish to grant myself every power that is imaginable or not imaginable." Using the same straw man logic.

[Nanoblack]

For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.

If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems. Otherwise, by RAW and as per 'the computer', he gets screwed.

This thread went from mental exercise of 'By RAW, prevent this' to actually being prevented by RAW with citations and sterf to 'Oh crap. I can't win. I'm just gonna conveniently ignore any evidence against me.'

Forgive me, but I might need you to be a little clearer. There is no interaction between the gate spell and any artifact level magic items. There is the progression of CoI->Gate->Solar->Profit. Unless you are referring to the payment method section where it states the difference between immediate and contractual service? Because a standard action to cast a spell like ability that the Solar gets 1/day with no lasting costs sounds like an immediate service to me.

:smallsigh:

Theoretical Optimization and RAW are not mutually exclusive terms. Given the thread title, one can only hope that unlimited power doesn't fall within the realms of practical optimization and so I think common sense would default the scenario to TO. Also, can you please specify what exactly is too general? I will restate that TO exercises operate under a certain set of assumptions that have been repeated countless times over in this thread. If you need some elaboration on what exactly TO entails, just let me know and I will do my best to explain.

That last paragraph wasn't really necessary. Personally, I think that there is most likely a misunderstanding of the difference between RAW and RAI, but the wisest among us has already ceded the argument for that exact reason.

[gooddragon1]

Not sure why he doesn't just change his idea to "I use wish to grant myself every power that is imaginable or not imaginable." Using the same straw man logic.


A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
...
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

My response.

[animewatcha]

Notice that gooddragon also seems to ignore the text around the 'I win benefit' detailing said benefit is actually achieved via abilities and extreme cheese ( manipulate form and other abilities ) and not in that it actually an power entitled 'I win.'

[Psyren]

It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?



http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

Reread the section you're referencing:


Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese: For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature. Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Key text in bold. The "I win" and similarly silly abilities are specifically due to Manipulate Form's poor wording, which the author himself admits probably don't even fly in his own exercise.

What he's saying basically is that if you invent your own Sp, Su or Ex ability, you can then have Pun-Pun grant it to himself. That part of the entry is not TO, because abilities that don't exist require a DM to create them first. Everything else before that (including Pun-Pun granting himself divine ranks etc.) is. That section was more a bit of unbridled enthusiasm/sugar-rush on the author's part. Nobody really singles it out since the RAW parts of Pun-Pun are show-stopping enough by themselves.

[gooddragon1]

Notice that gooddragon also seems to ignore the text around the 'I win benefit' detailing said benefit is actually achieved via abilities and extreme cheese ( manipulate form and other abilities ) and not in that it actually an power entitled 'I win.'


Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Sound familiar?


Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance.

===


Reread the section you're referencing:



Key text in bold. The "I win" and similarly silly abilities are specifically due to Manipulate Form's poor wording, which the author himself admits probably don't even fly in his own exercise.

What he's saying basically is that if you invent your own Sp, Su or Ex ability, you can then have Pun-Pun grant it to himself. That part of the entry is not TO, because new abilities require a DM. Everything else before that (including Pun-Pun granting himself divine ranks etc.) is.

Then, by this admission, I use whatever rules would allow him to do this as my rules to make my character of equal power. It may no longer be by TO but it should now be clear where I'm coming from.

[Psyren]

Then, by this admission, I use whatever rules would allow him to do this as my rules to make my character of equal power. It may no longer be by TO but it should now be clear where I'm coming from.

If it's not even TO anymore, what's the point? You may as well, as someone else stated earlier in the thread, use the spell research rules to grant yourself a cantrip that gives you all the abilities you invented for your stick instantaneously once cast.

It goes from being a legitimate thought-experiment at that point to mere onanism.

[gooddragon1]

If it's not even TO anymore, what's the point? You may as well, as someone else stated earlier in the thread, use the spell research rules to grant yourself a cantrip that gives you all the abilities you invented for your stick instantaneously once cast.

It goes from being a legitimate thought-experiment at that point to mere onanism.

Funny how you don't call it that when the shoe is on the other foot. I just like to see how far the rules can take me. But I'd ask that you don't say that it's against the rules please.

Independent research may involve unavailable costs at a DM's leisure. My method involves only XP.

[animewatcha]

Forgive me, but I might need you to be a little clearer. There is no interaction between the gate spell and any artifact level magic items. There is the progression of CoI->Gate->Solar->Profit. Unless you are referring to the payment method section where it states the difference between immediate and contractual service? Because a standard action to cast a spell like ability that the Solar gets 1/day with no lasting costs sounds like an immediate service to me.

:smallsigh:

Theoretical Optimization and RAW are not mutually exclusive terms. Given the thread title, one can only hope that unlimited power doesn't fall within the realms of practical optimization and so I think common sense would default the scenario to TO. Also, can you please specify what exactly is too general? I will restate that TO exercises operate under a certain set of assumptions that have been repeated countless times over in this thread. If you need some elaboration on what exactly TO entails, just let me know and I will do my best to explain.

That last paragraph wasn't really necessary. Personally, I think that there is most likely a misunderstanding of the difference between RAW and RAI, but the wisest among us has already ceded the argument for that exact reason.

I am referring to the method in which he gains the artifact-level ( in accordance to the epic level creation sterf about only major artifacts having the ability to contain this kind of power ) and how Wish doesn't create artifacts at all. This thread isn't about TO. If this is about TO, then it wouldn't really be about 'By Raw, what rules prevent this from happening'. Since this isn't TO, but is about 'by RAW, what rules..' when he gates 'a solar' exacts words, he is being too general about it. Invoking the clause within wish about the bad mojo only for gate-version. Like a deity whose base creature ( divinity ranks blah blah blah outside ) is 'a solar.' Same way with Wish. by RAW since he isn't going about about it the right way due to his 'poor wording'.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?



http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

The manipulate form ability is an ability of more than one sarukh. Showing where a specific creature's stat-block uses his name instead of the generic "a sarukh" or "a character with this ability" doesn't make it not work. Moreover, pun pun can legally give himself any already printed ability with manipulate form. He doesn't need to create any. Simply mimicking the tarrasque's regeneration makes him unkillable to anything that can't produce a wish effect. Pun pun's assumed limitless power comes from the limitless power of being able, after a time, to use any ability or combination of abilities in print, and have them key off of arbitrarily high stats. It has nothing whatever to do with custom abilities. Maybe the wish granted candle shouldn't work. But using the wish to get the money to simply buy a candle of invocation isn't at all problematic in any way.

Trying (and failing) to pick apart a much more well thought out and rules legal TO exploit than yours doesn't validate your own.

And you're still completely ignoring the accepted definition of TO. Whatever your thought experiment is, it's not TO.

I'm done here. Continuing to feed this fellow's addiction to attention isn't doing him, or anyone else, any good.

[gooddragon1]

The manipulate form ability is an ability of more than one sarukh. Showing where a specific creature's stat-block uses his name instead of the generic "a sarukh" or "a character with this ability" doesn't make it not work. Moreover, pun pun can legally give himself any already printed ability with manipulate form. He doesn't need to create any. Simply mimicking the tarrasque's regeneration makes him unkillable to anything that can't produce a wish effect. Pun pun's assumed limitless power comes from the limitless power of being able, after a time, to use any ability or combination of abilities in print, and have them key off of arbitrarily high stats. It has nothing whatever to do with custom abilities. Maybe the wish granted candle shouldn't work. But using the wish to get the money to simply buy a candle of invocation isn't at all problematic in any way.

Trying (and failing) to pick apart a much more well thought out and rules legal TO exploit than yours doesn't validate your own.

And you're still completely ignoring the accepted definition of TO. Whatever your thought experiment is, it's not TO.

I'm done here. Continuing to feed this fellow's addiction to attention isn't doing him, or anyone else, any good.

Not a problem, almost done anyway it seems.

[Psyren]

Funny how you don't call it that when the shoe is on the other foot.

Actually, the part I quoted about Pun-Pun (granting himself non-existent abilities) is the one part I don't agree is RAW at all. It's just that there's enough RAW before that portion that Pun-Pun still fulfills his stated goal, i.e. being the most powerful character/build in 3.5.


I just like to see how far the rules can take me. But I'd ask that you don't say that it's against the rules please.

Independent research may involve unavailable costs at a DM's leisure. My method involves only XP.

Of course it is. None of your stick's abilities are in any rulebook, so I'll point out that fact as much as I feel like.

Without a DM to invent these abilities/set that cost for you, you can't do it. Manipulate Form to grant already extant abilities is different.

[gooddragon1]

Actually, the part I quoted about Pun-Pun (granting himself non-existent abilities) is the one part I don't agree is RAW at all. It's just that there's enough RAW before that portion that Pun-Pun still fulfills his stated goal, i.e. being the most powerful character/build in 3.5.



Of course it is. None of your stick's abilities are in any rulebook, so I'll point out that fact as much as I feel like.

Without a DM to invent these abilities/set that cost for you, you can't do it. Manipulate Form to grant already extant abilities is different.


Craft Artifact
Prerequisites

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll.
Benefit

The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Crafts, knowledge, magic.

But not nonexisting ones as you have said. You disagree with that as you have said. I don't care about that. I follow through the logic that allows it to create what I wanted. If it is possible for pun pun to create any ability so too is it for me to create any item and by extension any ability. And that is the end of my argument.

If it isn't then it isn't.

[Psyren]

There is actually a way to use your staff the way you want - the same trick Pun-Pun uses. Add Ice Assassin (X times) to it, copy X deities, order a copy to make you a proxy, make a squirrel into your proxy, etc. etc. then recall all your divine ranks. With NI divine ranks, you can now take Craft Artifact normally and make a brand new stick with epic spells in it.

While you still can't exactly make brand new abilities out of whole cloth, epic spellcasting in your stick lets you come close, as you can now invent your own magic. Combining the right seeds and factors gets you pretty close to making your own abilities.

[gooddragon1]

There is actually a way to use your staff the way you want - the same trick Pun-Pun uses. Add Ice Assassin (X times) to it, copy X deities, order a copy to make you a proxy, make a squirrel into your proxy, etc. etc. then recall all your divine ranks. With NI divine ranks, you can now take Craft Artifact normally and make a brand new stick with epic spells in it.

While you still can't exactly make brand new abilities out of whole cloth, epic spellcasting in your stick lets you come close, as you can now invent your own magic. Combining the right seeds and factors gets you pretty close to making your own abilities.


Seed: Conjure
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 21
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving matter up to 20 cu. ft.
Duration: 8 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed creates a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving matter of up to 20 cubic feet in volume. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. The seed can create matter ranging in hardness and rarity from vegetable matter all the way up to mithral and even adamantine. Simple objects have a natural duration of 24 hours. For each additional cubic foot of matter created, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. Attempting to use any created object as a material component or a resource during epic spell development causes the spell to fail and the object to disappear.

The conjure seed can be used in conjunction with the life and fortify seeds for an epic spell that creates an entirely new creature, if made permanent. To give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability. To give the creature a supernatural or extraordinary ability rather than a spell-like ability, double the cost of the relevant seed. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth. To give a creature Hit Dice, use the fortify seed. Each 5 hit points granted to the creature gives it an additional 1 HD. Once successfully created, the new creature will breed true.

This might be of interest.

[Psyren]

This might be of interest.

Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

[gooddragon1]

Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

Precisely. That's exactly what I wanted. My character to be on par with pun pun as it reaches towards infinity but by using even less.

[Psyren]

Precisely. That's exactly what I wanted. My character to be on par with pun pun as it reaches towards infinity but by using even less.

You've already failed that metric though - your build needs Grey Elf Wizard 5, while Pun-Pun's fastest entry is Kobold Paladin 1. So he has ascended while you're still killing rats for XP and made sure you would never rise to challenge him.

[gooddragon1]

You've already failed that metric though - your build needs Grey Elf Wizard 5, while Pun-Pun's fastest entry is Kobold Paladin 1. So he has ascended while you're still killing rats for XP and made sure you would never rise to challenge him.

I didn't mean so much in level as I meant by staying entirely within the SRD. Pun pun requires sourcebooks whereas this does not require anything outside the SRD.

[Psyren]

You still have to go outside. Ice Assassin is in Frostburn; without that, you can't achieve a divine rank without a DM's assistance and therefore can't make an artifact which means you can't use epic spells and thus creating magic requires spell research which again requires a DM... etc.

[gooddragon1]

You still have to go outside. Ice Assassin is in Frostburn; without that, you can't achieve a divine rank without a DM's assistance and therefore can't make an artifact which means you can't use epic spells and thus creating magic requires spell research which again requires a DM... etc.


Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

Pun pun bypasses it. Then so does my character.

Though note: I do it through "assistance" on item creation. Not spell creation.

[Psyren]

Pun pun bypasses it.

No it doesn't. The part of Pun-Pun that I quoted ("I win") isn't RAW.

The rest of it is, but can't be done SRD-only.

[gooddragon1]

No it doesn't. The part of Pun-Pun that I quoted ("I win") isn't RAW.

The rest of it is, but can't be done SRD-only.

If what he does to gain unlimited power is not RAW then neither is what mine does.

I tack on a secondary of willing to go outside SRD to achieve it RAW but the objective is to reach the same power with the same assumptions while remaining SRD.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wish creates an item: Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)
Item casts Gate at 17th level. Also Efreeti casts SLA at 12th CL


Wow, that is a bit bizarre, and the candle of invocation is kind of a round about way of doing things. I could say the DM could force you to roll a knowledge arcana check in order to actually know what a candle of invocation is, but that is crossing over into the point of maliciousness (and uncomfortable levels of frustration if taken to its logical conclusion), so I'll conclude, at least as far as this bit is concerned, by saying fair enough, I was mistaken, and yes, you are right, those can mechanically work.

I could also note how this is not necessarily ultimate power, as the power to do this exact thing still exists, and now all of the sudden this 5th level wizard is having to deal with an unintended case of provoking a mutual assured destruction situation, but I guess thinking of the consequences of this wouldn't exactly be necessarily for theoretical optimization.

The only remaining problem I see is my last point, that the creating magic items section of the Wish spell exists in this vague area relating to custom item creation, as I noted by the slight variation in language that would be necessary to actually imply this. Sort of like a Schrodinger's cat that can only be determined to be alive or dead by the expert opinion of a DM. Either way, however, it is reliant on DM fiat.

[Psyren]

If what he does to gain unlimited power is not RAW then neither is what mine does.

I tack on a secondary of willing to go outside SRD to achieve it RAW but the objective is to reach the same power with the same assumptions while remaining SRD.

I know your objective - I'm just telling you what you want isn't possible. Either you have to go outside the SRD (in which case Pun-Pun is faster), or you have to rely on DM fiat to create what you need (which Pun-Pun does not.)

If that still isn't clear, there's no other way I can state it to convince you otherwise.

[gooddragon1]

I know your objective - I'm just telling you what you want isn't possible. Either you have to go outside the SRD (in which case Pun-Pun is faster), or you have to rely on DM fiat to create what you need (which Pun-Pun does not.)

If that still isn't clear, there's no other way I can state it to convince you otherwise.

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

[Psyren]

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That section doesn't invalidate the other things Pun-Pun can do, but those things require non-SRD material (Serpent Kingdoms and Frostburn, e.g.)

[gooddragon1]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That section doesn't invalidate the other things Pun-Pun can do, but those things require non-SRD material (Serpent Kingdoms and Frostburn, e.g.)

Good, then we both use DM fiat to get it. But he uses serpent kingdoms to get sarrukh grant ability ability and I only use SRD. Still uses fiat, but doesn't go out of SRD.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

Damnit, I said I wouldn't add anything else here.

The "I win" bit, isn't a necessary part of pun pun. He's still a creature of essentially limitless power without it. That bit is technically RAW, but it's not TO because it requires DM fiat to function. The rest of pun pun is both RAW and TO because it requires no DM fiat whatsoever and, much more importantly, allows pun pun to do literally anything any other character that has ever been printed can do.

You're focusing on an utterly irrelevant piece of the Pun Pun thread.

[Psyren]

Good, then we both use DM fiat to get it. But he uses serpent kingdoms to get sarrukh grant ability ability and I only use SRD. Still uses fiat, but doesn't go out of SRD.

What? The non-custom parts of Pun-Pun aren't fiat. Every one of them can be found in a sourcebook.


Damnit, I said I wouldn't add anything else here.

The "I win" bit, isn't a necessary part of pun pun. He's still a creature of essentially limitless power without it. That bit is technically RAW, but it's not TO because it requires DM fiat to function. The rest of pun pun is both RAW and TO because it requires no DM fiat whatsoever and, much more importantly, allows pun pun to do literally anything any other character that has ever been printed can do.

You're focusing on an utterly irrelevant piece of the Pun Pun thread.

Yep, that

[gooddragon1]

What? The non-custom parts of Pun-Pun aren't fiat. Every one of them can be found in a sourcebook.

Yes. I mean only with respect to his custom abilities. I do not care about any of the other ones. Only his custom ones.

You see, while he can attain nearly unlimited power, without the ability to define his abilities he's still limited. It's when he can go outside of the rules and create his own that he actually gains unlimited power. Or at least that's how I feel about it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes. I mean only with respect to his custom abilities. I do not care about any of the other ones. Only his custom ones.

You see, while he can attain nearly unlimited power, without the ability to define his abilities he's still limited. It's when he can go outside of the rules and create his own that he actually gains unlimited power. Or at least that's how I feel about it.

He doesn't have to define his abilities. They're already defined wherever it is they are written. The ability to gain them through manipulate form doesn't change that.

Pun pun does not require fiat to gain nigh-limitless power.

Example: pun pun uses manipulate form to give himself divine rank 12 and each of the prerequisite feats, then grants himself craft artifact. He can now create any artifact in print. No fiat, no rules interpretation of any kind. It's all right there in black and white on the pages.

"but what about material costs?" fine, he grants himself the alter reality divine salient ability. He can now create the necessary crafting materials to use craft artifact.

He can even grant himself the divine salient ability to create freakin' life.

Having already granted himself the tarrasque's regeneration he's nigh unkillable, and he has an arbitrarily high con score, so he has just as arbitrarily high HP's, to buffer him from unconciousness.

There is no fiat here.

[gooddragon1]

He doesn't have to define his abilities. They're already defined wherever it is they are written. The ability to gain them through manipulate form doesn't change that.

Pun pun does not require fiat to gain nigh-limitless power.

Example: pun pun uses manipulate form to give himself divine rank 12 and each of the prerequisite feats, then grants himself craft artifact. He can now create any artifact in print. No fiat, no rules interpretation of any kind. It's all right there in black and white on the pages.

"nigh-limitless" not unlimited. Where they are written except the ones that aren't. Keep that in mind.

[Psyren]

The only way to be truly unlimited is fiat. Even Pun-Pun has limits without it, and the author said as much years ago; they just happen to be limits that no other TO build has any hope of reaching. Being unlimited was never Pun-Pun's goal.

It seems to be YOUR goal, judging by the thread title, but you can't achieve it without fiat either. Thus there's little point in discussing it further.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"nigh-limitless" not unlimited. Where they are written except the ones that aren't. Keep that in mind.

It's long since proven that there's almost nothing that can't already be done within the rules as written. The few things that can't are so obscure that I can't actually think of any off the top of my head.

Create life: see the edit of my previous post

Create worlds: genesis.

Create souls: see create life or soulfused construct template or incarnate construct or clone + create undead + awaken undead

create any item ever printed: craft artifact and its prereq's

travel to anywhere and anytime: greater teleport, teleport through time, and an arbitrarily high enough knowledge check to know such a place and time existed.

Seriously, find me any one thing that can't already be done within the existing rules, and I'll concede that pun pun's power isn't limitless for all practical purposes.

Of course, by the same token, neither is your "I win stick." Since having limitless power requires you to have limitless knowledge.

[TuggyNE]

It's long since proven that there's almost nothing that can't already be done within the rules as written. The few things that can't are so obscure that I can't actually think of any off the top of my head.

If I recall correctly, I once made a thread to try to collect those sorts of things. Didn't get many replies.... Actually, no: a search shows it was for unsolved PO problems. A bit less restrictive.


Of course, by the same token, neither is your "I win stick." Since having limitless power requires you to have limitless knowledge.

The Omniscificer would be useful here. <tangent> It was originally built to counter (the level 5 version of) Pun-Pun, incidentally.</tangent>

[NichG]

The problem with the Omniscificer is that the actual listed mechanical outcomes of an infinitely high Knowledge check by RAW are a lot more restrictive than what people usually want to do with it. It gets into a very ill-defined section of the rules. Granted, it does achieve 'actually infinite' in several things instead of 'nigh-infinite', which is impressive in its own right.

Without strongly mutually exclusive abilities, all asymptotic TO builds will eventually turn into the same combined build though, as there is nothing preventing Pun-Pun from e.g. performing the Omniscificer's trick or others.

One can in fact ask the question 'what things can be made truly infinite, and what things can only be made nigh-infinite or arbitrarily high?'. I don't fully remember the list, but I think all checks and caster level at least can be made 'truly infinite', whereas stats only get 'arbitrarily high', for example (due to being able to use infinite damage tricks via Masochism or Cosmic Descryer to boost checks or caster level, whereas needing to iterate a loop to increase stats). Though I guess this means that Wisdom in particular can be actually-infinite (via Owl's Insight, the spell that gives you CL/2 uncapped bonus to Wis).

I guess with Epic Spells and an infinite spellcraft check you might be able to hit actual infinite on all stats. I'm a bit murky there though, because I think that would require actually-infinite gold and xp, and I don't know if those are possible (gold I guess you can get via infinite caster level and PaO or something, but xp I don't know how you'd do it).

[Analytica]

OP: Fundamentally, this is the same as the Wish and the Word, as presented by Frank and K on the old Wizards boards. I.e. wish as a SLA requires no component, you can wish for magic items, and then you might just wish for a ring of infinite wishes.

I am not entirely convinced, though. Wish states that you can create or improve magic items, and states an XP cost for doing so. It does not actually say that you can ignore prerequisites for crafting magic items. However, you are not actually using any crafting feats. You are just benefitting from a spell effect, which happens to require XP based on what using the crafting feats would require. So I agree that using wish to create a magic item does not require you to meet prerequisites for crafting the item.

However, it does not say that you can create any item you want. It says that you can create a magic item. It does not list which items you can make, nor does it say that you can create, say, any magic item worth less than 25000GP, or any non-epic item, or any item defined within the rules. As such, which items you can create is not unbounded (as it would have been if it had said "any item"), it is just undefined. "Any item" is just as valid an interpretation as allowing the wish to create only pearls of power, or lyres of building. As I read it, undefined does not default to limitless. Moreover, in my opinion, this is one of many cases where the concept of pure RAW becomes useless, because without a DM to define the undefined "a magic item" into something well-defined like "any magic item" or "any magic item in the DMG", it simply is not possible to say whether RAW allows the staff of infinite wishes or I-win-buttons or not.