Silly wizards! Spell slot level -1?

[metabolicjosh]

So someone in my game used a arcane thesis on his acid splash. I thought it was a silly choice. But then he added sanctum spell.

So that means his spell uses a spell slot of -1, or at least it should.
What should I say or do.

[Flickerdart]

A wizard does not have any -1 level spell slots, and cannot prepare such a spell (except in a higher level spell slot).

[metabolicjosh]

Does this work on higher level spells? Wish in a 8th level slot?

[Eldariel]

Does this work on higher level spells? Wish in a 8th level slot?

Sanctum Spell as written is kinda retarded. Be careful with it.

[metabolicjosh]

Sanctum Spell as written is kinda retarded. Be careful with it.

I know it's famous for the infinite arcane fusion combo.
I'll allow it, it's not like I haven't done worse....

[Eldariel]

I know it's famous for the infinite arcane fusion combo.
I'll allow it, it's not like I haven't done worse....

That's just the tip of the ice berg. Be it qualifications, metamagic rods, spell levels or any such, Sanctum Spell simply does everything (that it's not supposed to; for the intended it's fairly pointless).

[Ammutseba]

According to RAW, he shouldn't be able to prepare that spell, because he doesn't get any level -1 spell slots.

However, your player is clearly being a bit silly here. Also, acid splash probably isn't that game breaking. So, I'd say that for the purposes of both being practical and not being a killjoy, you've got two options.

Either you give this player some virtual level -1 spell slots, such as 1 more than he normally has level 0 slots, or you just let him cast the spell until he's blue in the face. He has, after all, paid two of his precious feats on this party clown's exercise, so why not let him have some fun?

[metabolicjosh]

According to RAW, he shouldn't be able to prepare that spell, because he doesn't get any level -1 spell slots.

However, your player is clearly being a bit silly here. Also, acid splash probably isn't that game breaking. So, I'd say that for the purposes of both being practical and not being a killjoy, you've got two options.

Either you give this player some virtual level -1 spell slots, such as 1 more than he normally has level 0 slots, or you just let him cast the spell until he's blue in the face. He has, after all, paid two of his precious feats on this party clown's exercise, so why not let him have some fun?

I rather like your idea. He basically has a reserve feat of Acid Splash. That's not to bad. Other than the fact that he could dig down forever. But who cant at level 3?

[Snowbluff]

I know it's famous for the infinite arcane fusion combo.
I'll allow it, it's not like I haven't done worse....

No, it's famous due to the equations for item crafting working in silly ways. Apparently plugging in a negative one (-1) into an equation that only multiplies numbers together can warp time and space, as well as create mass in the form of precious GPs.

[Flickerdart]

Just because the wizard can prepare the spell as a -1 level spell doesn't mean that the spell being used for the item (Acid Splash) is a level -1 spell.

[Douglas]

Sanctum Spell Acid Splash still takes a level 0 slot.


Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”

[metabolicjosh]

Sanctum Spell Acid Splash still takes a level 0 slot.

And Sanctum spell lowers the spell level to -1...
So please don't correct me.

And if you say that isn't the Original spell level. well to bad metamagiced spells are considered spells in there own right. Because you apply things in a Order. This is answered in many QnA's Before the Great Purge.

Spell l Acid Splash Spell Lvl 0
Metamagics in most Favored Order l Sanctum Spell lvl -1
Features in most Favored Order l Thesis Lowered to -1 Slot
Then you Cast l But No level -1 slots...

[Answerer]

You can always cast a spell from a higher-level slot if you wish, so he can still cast it with 0th-level spell slots.

[Flickerdart]

Sanctum Spell alone takes up a spell slot of the original level anyway.

[TuggyNE]

Sanctum Spell alone takes up a spell slot of the original level anyway.

This is really the main point. Sanctum Spell gives you either (spell level - 1) or (spell level + 1) in slot of (spell level), depending on whether you're in or out of your sanctum. It explicitly doesn't change the slot you prepare the spell in.

[mattie_p]

I rather like your idea. He basically has a reserve feat of Acid Splash. That's not to bad. Other than the fact that he could dig down forever. But who cant at level 3?

"You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's acid splash all the way down!"

[Douglas]

And Sanctum spell lowers the spell level to -1...
So please don't correct me.
Which reduces any applicable save DC and other such calculations, but does not affect the spell slot used.


And if you say that isn't the Original spell level. well to bad metamagiced spells are considered spells in there own right.
No, they are not. A metamagiced spell is a metamagiced spell. It is still a spell that has a metamagic feat applied to it, and its "original spell level" is unambiguously its spell level without metamagic taken into account.

Sanctum Spell and Arcane Thesis can be combined to reduce the spell slot level needed by 1, but this can only be used to offset positive costs from other metamagic feats. It cannot result in a final slot adjustment below 0.

[Anodai]

A sanctum spell has an effective spell level one level higher than normal if cast in your sanctum (see Special, below)--but if not cast in the sanctum, it has an effective spell level one level lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats.

How do you get "This spell can go in a slot one level lower than its normal level" from "uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level?"

EDIT:

Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level. When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. For example, an empowered thesis spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual slot (rather than the normal two levels higher).

Ah, my mistake. It seems pretty obvious that this isn't how it's intended to work, however.

Either way, -1 level spell slots don't exist. So... I guess he's done nothing? He can still prepare it in a higher level slot as per usual.

[dextercorvia]

@Anodai: and there is errata on Arcane Thesis so that it doesn't reduce the final adjusted level to below the original level.

[Jack_Simth]

So someone in my game used a arcane thesis on his acid splash. I thought it was a silly choice. But then he added sanctum spell.

So that means his spell uses a spell slot of -1, or at least it should.
What should I say or do.

You may want to double-check Arcane Thesis to see if it has errata that puts a cap on how low it can go. But if it doesn't have it:

With the negative metamagic, he can't prepare it normally, as he doesn't have a -1 level spell slot (although he can, as always, prepare lower-level spells in higher-level slots, and could put it in a 0th level spell slot if he wanted to do so).

If he casts it outside his sanctum, it becomes a -1st level spell, which I suppose means that the concentration check to not lose it when hit, or to cast defensively, is lower. Not that he'll likely care past maybe level 5.

As long as he doesn't then try to use Scribe Scroll to produce a scroll of a -1 level spell which then gives him money and XP, it should be OK.

[Anodai]

@Anodai: and there is errata on Arcane Thesis so that it doesn't reduce the final adjusted level to below the original level.

Well, that clears that up, then.

[Thomasinx]

You should be fine letting him use it like a reserve feat. The main thing is to not allow him to pull any crafting hijinks with a -1 level spell. You dont want him to create money by crafting an item with a negative cost...

It's not like acid splash is especially game-breaking, and honestly, its weaker than a lot of other reserve feats out there.

[Malroth]

I can see taking those feats at lv 1 in a 3.p game as a summoner so I could grab the Acidic splatter reserve feat at lv 3.

[ericgrau]

The first thing the thread title made me think of was level -1 spells:

Fire Flicker: A flicker of candlelight appears on your finger then winks out. This spell is incapable of igniting most objects except dry tinder and the like in a windless environment.

California Mist: This light fog appears in a 20 foot radius around you. It does not obscure vision at all.

Detect Self: This spell works like detect evil except the strength of the aura detected is based on the caster's HD. You normally detect 1 self but possessing life force(s) or a split personality might raise the count.

Cooking Oil: Your finger releases a tablespoon of cooking oil onto the desired surface. It can keep food from sticking to pans or lubricate a squeaky hinge.

Sparkles!: Glitter rains down around your body giving you a -5 penalty to hide checks for 5 rounds.

Limited Whim: Target creature realizes a single simple thing you want regardless of language or intelligence. It is not compelled to get it for you.

[TuggyNE]

Detect Self: This spell works like detect evil except the strength of the aura detected is based on the caster's HD. You normally detect 1 self but possessing life force(s) or a split personality might raise the count.

This is the most best, and my next character will have a continuous item of it. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Would detecting Self cause you to stun yourself if your HD is twice your level?

[ericgrau]

level <=> HD so only if you're level 0 or have infinite HD. The spell is the bane of many apprentice mages.

[Socratov]

The first thing the thread title made me think of was level -1 spells:

Fire Flicker: A flicker of candlelight appears on your finger then winks out. This spell is incapable of igniting most objects except dry tinder and the like in a windless environment.

California Mist: This light fog appears in a 20 foot radius around you. It does not obscure vision at all.

Detect Self: This spell works like detect evil except the strength of the aura detected is based on the caster's HD. You normally detect 1 self but possessing life force(s) or a split personality might raise the count.

Cooking Oil: Your finger releases a tablespoon of cooking oil onto the desired surface. It can keep food from sticking to pans or lubricate a squeaky hinge.

Sparkles!: Glitter rains down around your body giving you a -5 penalty to hide checks for 5 rounds. You gain a +5 bonus on Perform(Twilight Vampire) and perform(Disney Fairy)

Limited Whim: Target creature realizes a single simple thing you want regardless of language or intelligence. It is not compelled to get it for you.

oh wow, one fix however (bolded)...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, Thesis and Sanctum only really kick in as metamagic mitigators, when used in conjunction with other metamagic feats that significantly improve the effective spell level slot used, only to reduce it back down.

For example, he could tack on Fell Drain and Fell Frighten onto the spell. And still be a 0th level spell. Mind the lack of saving throw or SR on the negative level.

[Vizzerdrix]

I know it's famous for the infinite arcane fusion combo.
I'll allow it, it's not like I haven't done worse....

The what combo? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallmad::smalleek:

Oh. Oh gods but that is a dirty little combo. So easy to have access to and not even realize it's right in front of your face. :smallsigh:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The what combo? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused::smallannoyed::smallmad::smalleek:

Oh. Oh gods but that is a dirty little combo. So easy to have access to and not even realize it's right in front of your face. :smallsigh:

Yea, infinite recursion is never a good idea.

[mattie_p]

Detect Self: This spell works like detect evil except the strength of the aura detected is based on the caster's HD. You normally detect 1 self but possessing life force(s) or a split personality might raise the count.

Combine with magic of the land and spellguard of silverymoon 4, now you can detect others!

[NichG]

Depending on the tenor of your game, you could also have him discover something neat. For instance, spells of negative level have the reverse effects of the original spell. As someone pointed out, he is spending two feats on this (per spell he wants to apply it to), so it seems reasonable to reward the exploration with something interesting.

Heck, it could be something even stranger like the spell effect is normal but for some reason it is empowered in antimagic fields rather than being neutralized, and can't be dispelled except by the positive level version of itself. Being able to cast cantrips in an AMF probably isn't so bad (though I guess beware Cheater of Mystra if it goes higher than that, especially if he got anti-antimagic field or something really strange).

[nedz]

Your player's feat choices do seem strange, its possible he's working towards an exploit. Its not one I'm familiar with though. What are his other feats ?

I'd stick to RAW at this point and await developments.

[Sponson]

Wait, but the Sanctum Spell that I seem to be reading here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/sanctum-spell--2508/) says that you cast a spell at an effective one level lower, so all effects are one level lower. And then it specifically states that you still cast it at the original level. You can't take an effective spell level as casting level.

Arcane Thesis was errata'd, so you still can only cast spells at original level.

How are people getting to spell level -1?

[TuggyNE]

Wait, but the Sanctum Spell that I seem to be reading here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcerers--51/sanctum-spell--2508/) says that you cast a spell at an effective one level lower, so all effects are one level lower. And then it specifically states that you still cast it at the original level. You can't take an effective spell level as casting level.

Arcane Thesis was errata'd, so you still can only cast spells at original level.

How are people getting to spell level -1?

It's already been mentioned that the wackiness here doesn't come with a decrease in spell slot required. So chalk any discrepancies up to "OP didn't understand Sanctum Spell's wording quite right".

[Tyndmyr]

A wizard does not have any -1 level spell slots, and cannot prepare such a spell (except in a higher level spell slot).

Arcane Thesis, per the errata, cannot lower the spell below it's initial level.

Sanctum Spell does not change the slot a spell is prepared in.

Therefore, it is prepared in the same slot it was initially, so there is no concern.

[Urpriest]

Arcane Thesis, per the errata, cannot lower the spell below it's initial level.

Sanctum Spell does not change the slot a spell is prepared in.

Therefore, it is prepared in the same slot it was initially, so there is no concern.

Actually, I think I know what the OP is going for now. AFB, so someone should check, but here's what the logic seems to be:

A Sanctum Acid Splash is a level -1 spell, prepared in a level 0 slot.

Arcane Thesis reduces the slot required to prepare the spell by one, to a minimum of the original spell's level. Sanctum Acid Splash is normally prepared in a level 0 slot, but its actual level is -1. So Arcane Thesis would reduce the level in which you can prepare it by 1, to a minimum of the spell's level (-1). So it goes in a -1 slot.

[dextercorvia]

But the spell's original level is 0. -1 is its modified level (for the purpose of calculations, saves etc.).

Also, Sanctum only changes the spell's effective level when cast. It has no bearing on preparation.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, I think I know what the OP is going for now. AFB, so someone should check, but here's what the logic seems to be:

A Sanctum Acid Splash is a level -1 spell, prepared in a level 0 slot.

Arcane Thesis reduces the slot required to prepare the spell by one, to a minimum of the original spell's level. Sanctum Acid Splash is normally prepared in a level 0 slot, but its actual level is -1. So Arcane Thesis would reduce the level in which you can prepare it by 1, to a minimum of the spell's level (-1). So it goes in a -1 slot.

Sorry, Dex, but I am with the Ur-example of all that is Priest. IMO/IMI, the 'original' level is the level before Arcane Thesis is added on. That's how I read 'original' in the books. It's thoroughly ambiguous, though.

[Douglas]

The 'original' level is the level before anything is added on. Otherwise the errata is literally nonsense.

[nedz]

Actually, I think I know what the OP is going for now. AFB, so someone should check, but here's what the logic seems to be:

A Sanctum Acid Splash is a level -1 spell, prepared in a level 0 slot.

Arcane Thesis reduces the slot required to prepare the spell by one, to a minimum of the original spell's level. Sanctum Acid Splash is normally prepared in a level 0 slot, but its actual level is -1. So Arcane Thesis would reduce the level in which you can prepare it by 1, to a minimum of the spell's level (-1). So it goes in a -1 slot.

OK, lets assume for the sake of argument that this works.
If so: what would be the point ?
In other words: where might this be going ?

[dextercorvia]

Sorry, Dex, but I am with the Ur-example of all that is Priest. IMO/IMI, the 'original' level is the level before Arcane Thesis is added on. That's how I read 'original' in the books. It's thoroughly ambiguous, though.

Then you still have to acknowledge that Sanctum doesn't change the level of the spell (original, effective, or whatever) until the spell is cast.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Then you still have to acknowledge that Sanctum doesn't change the level of the spell (original, effective, or whatever) until the spell is cast.

Which is why you use spontaneous casting to do it.

[dextercorvia]

Which is why you use spontaneous casting to do it.

At which point I default back to the position that original actually means original, not immediately previous. I was just pointing out another way that it didn't work.

[Snowbluff]

Then you still have to acknowledge that Sanctum doesn't change the level of the spell (original, effective, or whatever) until the spell is cast.

I would say that since the spell's level is based on location, the spell's level changes when your location changes.

[dextercorvia]

I would say that since the spell's level is based on location, the spell's level changes when your location changes.

That is not what the text of the feat says.

[metabolicjosh]

So does anyone even see that your Stuck at.

Does sanctum spell make the Spells level lower? Yes
However, Does that constitute the original level of the Spell? Maybe.... Discuss

[dextercorvia]

So does anyone even see that your Stuck at.

Does sanctum spell make the Spells level lower? Yes
However, Does that constitute the original level of the Spell? Maybe.... Discuss

If Sanctum has changed the level of the spell (not exactly right, but for the sake of argument...) can that new level be considered the "original" level? Under what sort of definition of original does that work?

[metabolicjosh]

Well i think raw that is true.
But for the game it will be funny. So i will make a whole set of -1 Spells...

[dextercorvia]

Well i think raw that is true.
But for the game it will be funny. So i will make a whole set of -1 Spells...

And, by the rule of funny, I declare that you will have a riot.

[metabolicjosh]

And, by the rule of funny, I declare that you will have a riot.

Oh Dex have you never had a riot? They're fun. If not go to Serbia.

[dextercorvia]

Oh Dex have you never had a riot? They're fun. If not go to Serbia.

I can't tell if you didn't recognize the idiom, or if you are just having pun with me. I'd better stop before it becomes unbearable.

[metabolicjosh]

I can't tell if you didn't recognize the idiom, or if you are just having pun with me. I'd better stop before it becomes unbearable.

I got you.
I just made a pun...

[Ammutseba]

Your player's feat choices do seem strange, its possible he's working towards an exploit. Its not one I'm familiar with though. What are his other feats ?

I'd stick to RAW at this point and await developments.

Nedz, what do you mean by an exploit? Is it a trick that can be done by combining certain parts of the game in the right order? Similar cheese?

Even if it's not, what you've got here is still a start for a really good idea. I mean, it seems to me like a really good idea, anyway. Exploits: effects or options which are created out of the synergy between multiple owned feats and/or known spells.


...maybe, once the prerequisites of an exploit are met, a character may purchase that exploit for a certain cost? Characters may have one exploit per 5 character levels? What sort of cost should, or would, that be?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nedz, what do you mean by an exploit? Is it a trick that can be done by combining certain parts of the game in the right order? Similar cheese?

Even if it's not, what you've got here is still a start for a really good idea. I mean, it seems to me like a really good idea, anyway. Exploits: effects or options which are created out of the synergy between multiple owned feats and/or known spells.


...maybe, once the prerequisites of an exploit are met, a character may purchase that exploit for a certain cost? Characters may have one exploit per 5 character levels? What sort of cost should, or would, that be?

One possible exploit could be Acid Splash + Fell Drain for negative levels, no save and no SR. Feels a bit weak without spell matrix/spellsurge shenanigans, though.

[Ammutseba]

One possible exploit could be Acid Splash + Fell Drain for negative levels, no save and no SR. Feels a bit weak without spell matrix/spellsurge shenanigans, though.

I'll work with that, but the Acid Splash really isn't much of a tax for the exploit. It needs a little more. Nonetheless, I'm guessing that would look something like...

EXPLOITS

Caustic Nethermist
Prerequisites: Fell Drain, ability to cast acid splash
Benefit: Once per round as a standard action, you can launch a small, flickering cloud of entropic mist as a ranged touch attack against a target within 25 feet. The cloud causes a target to gain one negative level. You can bestow only one negative level on a target with this ability per day.

If you target a 5-foot square with this ability and hit your target, the cloud you create lingers in that square until the beginning of your next turn and affects the first character to enter that square. You cannot target a square already occupied by a character with this ability. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your modifier for the ability which governs your bonus spells in the class that qualified your for this exploit's spell requirement (minimum 1; if you have more than one such class, you must choose one of them for this purposes when the exploit is purchased). This is a supernatural ability.

[nedz]

Nedz, what do you mean by an exploit? Is it a trick that can be done by combining certain parts of the game in the right order? Similar cheese?
A rules-exploit. A trick to exploit a gap in the rules. A meta-magic combo in this case.
Cheese is often an exploit, but not always.

One possible exploit could be Acid Splash + Fell Drain for negative levels, no save and no SR. Feels a bit weak without spell matrix/spellsurge shenanigans, though.
OK - so this would give him a (close) ranged touch attack to grant one negative level, with no SR, and no save; from a level 0 spell slot. Which is not bad from a cantrip.

Another exploit might be related to item creation. Plugging a -1 into these rules might give strange results. This could be a WBL breaking trick ?

I guess we'll have to wait until the PC takes his next feat to find out ?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A rules-exploit. A trick to exploit a gap in the rules. A meta-magic combo in this case.
Cheese is often an exploit, but not always.

OK - so this would give him a (close) ranged touch attack to grant one negative level, with no SR, and no save; from a level 0 spell slot. Which is not bad from a cantrip.

Another exploit might be related to item creation. Plugging a -1 into these rules might give strange results. This could be a WBL breaking trick ?

I guess we'll have to wait until the PC takes his next feat to find out ?

He could also be trying to claim that you can stack an infinite number into a spellsurge since adding negative numbers will never get you a positive number...

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, I think I know what the OP is going for now. AFB, so someone should check, but here's what the logic seems to be:

A Sanctum Acid Splash is a level -1 spell, prepared in a level 0 slot.

Arcane Thesis reduces the slot required to prepare the spell by one, to a minimum of the original spell's level. Sanctum Acid Splash is normally prepared in a level 0 slot, but its actual level is -1. So Arcane Thesis would reduce the level in which you can prepare it by 1, to a minimum of the spell's level (-1). So it goes in a -1 slot.

Yeah, but you don't have any -1 level slots, so that would be a fairly useless application.

A more amusing application is preparing it in the normal 0 level slot, but using it to make magic items with(something I've previously discussed in TO), thereby actually producing gold and xp when you craft it.

[Urpriest]

The 'original' level is the level before anything is added on. Otherwise the errata is literally nonsense.

Not really. Remember, most metamagic doesn't raise the spell's level, and the only commonly known metamagic that does so (Heighten) is expressly prohibited.


Then you still have to acknowledge that Sanctum doesn't change the level of the spell (original, effective, or whatever) until the spell is cast.

This, though, is the primary problem. There may be ways around it, though.