Tips on playing a rogue/paladin?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'm more looking for advice on playing a character who is a rogue who multiclasses into paladin.

I want to play a good character, one who is fun to play, but I don't want to aggrevate people along the way. Any pitfalls to avoid?

I've wanted to play this build for a while now.

Note: no tier 1s or 2s in my DM's game

[Togath]

first, see if your dm is willing to let you not use a paladin code, getting rid of it will clear most of the pitfalls, even if he doesn't point out that according to wotc, Indiana Jones and Batman are lawful good, and that a rogue/paladin combo could probably (according to wotc again, or at least complete scoundrel on lawful good scoundrels and scoundrel paladins) behave in a manner like them.

[hex0]

I'd look up the Grey Guard prc or instead play a Paladin of Freedom (on the SRD), they try to play a rogue/paladin.

[LordHenry]

You could always steal from the rich and help the poor... no one argues that Robin Hood is not good.
But seriously, I wouldn't recommend taking the alignment system as well as paladin's code too seriously.
On the mechanical side, CHA to all saves sure is nice for a social rogue, who usually sucks at non-reflex saves anyway. Your MAD-ness might be a problem though...

[Venusaur]

You could always steal from the rich and help the poor... no one argues that Robin Hood is not good.
But seriously, I wouldn't recommend taking the alignment system as well as paladin's code too seriously.
On the mechanical side, CHA to all saves sure is nice for a social rogue, who usually sucks at non-reflex saves anyway. Your MAD-ness might be a problem though...

Paladins have to be lawful good. I don't think Robin Hood is lawful.

[hex0]

Paladins have to be lawful good. I don't think Robin Hood is lawful.

Which is why I suggested Paladin of Freedom.

[navar100]

The onus is not only on you, especially if you're the paladin. You playing a paladin is not justified reason for another player not to play a thief-rogue, but the thief-rogue should also respect your choice of playing a paladin.

The thief-rogue trying to steal everything not nailed down, and even some nailed-down stuff, is causing problems on his own regardless of a paladin existing in the party. He's monopolizing play time with his solo adventures. When, not if, he gets caught it will cause problems with the rest of the party trying to deal with the main campaign plot. The thief-rogue will cause the party to lose face and have a bad reputation. If he steals from the party, he's a donkey cavity. If the thief-rogue player mocks you in and/or out of character he's being a female hygiene product sack.

On personal downtime like everyone gets a rogue may or may not do unlawful things that have nothing to do with the party or campaign plot. That you must respect. Let him do his thing and don't get all righteous on him. During play he'll do his roguish stuff. He may even try to pickpocket an opposing wizard to get his wand or metamagic rod. He has different methods and talents than you. Don't begrudge him that.

[Gavinfoxx]

You are going to have to completely swap out the standard code for a Lawful Good Paladin of Honor.

Consider one of the variant paladins, like the Neutral Good or the Chaotic Good ones.

Then, you need to (even then) throw out the default codes that THEY have, and write a code with the help of your GM.

Or you could, you know... instead play a character that is already the 'skillful divine crusader of an ideal' type, like a Cloistered Cleric with the right build options, or a Nightblade...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Just take that character stats, and then take an oath from a homebrew Paladin Order, and write up the specific oaths that you take and the alignment of the order...

[Sir_Chivalry]

Everyone seems to be assuming that a rogue needs to steal things.

I'm more looking for advice on playing a character who is a rogue who multiclasses into paladin.

Example:

Andre was born to the streets. Son of a hard-working and penny-pinching mother, he learned to use his wits and skill to survive, along with a decent strength advantage over the other kids. His potential for damage and intimidation landed him a job as a bodyguard and security for one of the local guild masters. All he had to do was look tough and keep quiet, and the boss would pay him well. It beat fighting for scraps in the back alleys, but the violence he visited on others broke his sainted mother's heart, and when he came to be arrested alongside his employer in a sting of those involved in illegal activites, Andre elected to have his sentence commuted in exchange for penance. He would work under a paladin of the Order of Illumination, and should his progress in learning the scriptures and training to be a knight of the order be anything less than exemplary, he would find himself in far worse than the local gaol. He would be cast into the pit of penance, a prisoner of the order.

That work for a guy who's a rogue/paladin multiclass?

[The Random NPC]

The onus is not only on you, especially if you're the paladin. You playing a paladin is not justified reason for another player not to play a thief-rogue, but the thief-rogue should also respect your choice of playing a paladin.

The thief-rogue trying to steal everything not nailed down, and even some nailed-down stuff, is causing problems on his own regardless of a paladin existing in the party. He's monopolizing play time with his solo adventures. When, not if, he gets caught it will cause problems with the rest of the party trying to deal with the main campaign plot. The thief-rogue will cause the party to lose face and have a bad reputation. If he steals from the party, he's a donkey cavity. If the thief-rogue player mocks you in and/or out of character he's being a female hygiene product sack.

On personal downtime like everyone gets a rogue may or may not do unlawful things that have nothing to do with the party or campaign plot. That you must respect. Let him do his thing and don't get all righteous on him. During play he'll do his roguish stuff. He may even try to pickpocket an opposing wizard to get his wand or metamagic rod. He has different methods and talents than you. Don't begrudge him that.
The Paladin/Rogue are the same player.

Everyone seems to be assuming that a rogue needs to steal things.

I'm more looking for advice on playing a character who is a rogue who multiclasses into paladin.

Example:

Andre was born to the streets. Son of a hard-working and penny-pinching mother, he learned to use his wits and skill to survive, along with a decent strength advantage over the other kids. His potential for damage and intimidation landed him a job as a bodyguard and security for one of the local guild masters. All he had to do was look tough and keep quiet, and the boss would pay him well. It beat fighting for scraps in the back alleys, but the violence he visited on others broke his sainted mother's heart, and when he came to be arrested alongside his employer in a sting of those involved in illegal activites, Andre elected to have his sentence commuted in exchange for penance. He would work under a paladin of the Order of Illumination, and should his progress in learning the scriptures and training to be a knight of the order be anything less than exemplary, he would find himself in far worse than the local gaol. He would be cast into the pit of penance, a prisoner of the order.

That work for a guy who's a rogue/paladin multiclass?
That implies (to me) that he can't use his sneak attack, what with it being dishonorable, and needing to be near exalted good or get thrown in the pit of penance.
EDIT: Of course if you don't feel the same, it works pretty good. I personally would just say something containing the words "ends justify the means" and "pragmatic".
EDIT2: Sam Vimes is a great example of a rogue/paladin multiclass. He knows some rules need to be broken, but others can't even be bent, because it becomes too easy to break them when you shouldn't.

[Gavinfoxx]

That sounds like the backstory of a pure rogue. Why do you need any divine abilities???

[Sir_Chivalry]

The Paladin/Rogue are the same player.

That implies (to me) that he can't use his sneak attack, what with it being dishonorable, and needing to be near exalted good or get thrown in the pit of penance.

But the Order of Illumination isn't all that concerned about dishonourable conduct so much as getting their man. The prestige class associated with it has sneak attack as a pre-req and grants more of it.

But I see what you're saying, perhaps he's reluctant to use this advantage against opponents when he should act honourably instead.

Not that it would stop him if he needed to, so no point in putting it in a flaw of something, just roleplay should be fine.

Good suggestion.

[Sir_Chivalry]

That sounds like the backstory of a pure rogue. Why do you need any divine abilities???

I like the idea of a scoundrel who honestly tries to be better and becomes a knight of good.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh. you are trying to get into a prestige class. Which? And what are the requirements?

[Gavinfoxx]

I like the idea of a scoundrel who honestly tries to be better and becomes a knight of good.

And you can't do that as a pure rogue why again? All the actual Paladin class is, is 'I have a code of conduct that if I don't follow, I will lose what crappy divine powered abilities I have.'

It is a total gimp class, and if you want to be a Knight of Good, LOTS of classes can do that...

[Sir_Chivalry]

Oh. you are trying to get into a prestige class. Which? And what are the requirements?

Shadowbane Inquisitor, requires turn undead and sneak attack, Gather Information, Sense Motive and Knowledge (religion) ranks, and Power Attack

Being vague to avoid running into the Open License thing

Edit: I could do it as a pure rogue, but really the class levels mean nothing but abilites for the character. He IS a pure rogue, even when taking levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor, he never stops being the skillful scoundrel with a personal code of justice who stalks in the shadows and strikes the unjust.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not be a rogue/cloistered cleric? also, edited an earlier post, take a look...
Paladin will take you AWAY from your concept!

If you want to have a code, then just Have A Code! Easy!

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, Shadowbane Inquisitor sucks. Just play a straight Cloistered Cleric, to have your cake and eat it too.

Remember, Friends don't let friends take the Paladin class.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I appreciate your concern gavin.

Now does anyone have any fluff advice assuming I actually do want to go through with this?

Side note: no tier 1 or 2 classes in game.

[Gavinfoxx]

Nightstalker, then. Races of Ansalon, I think. Also, Religious Adept. And ignore SI.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Nightstalker, then. Races of Ansalon, I think. Also, Religious Adept. And ignore SI.

Except my order isn't about hunting undead.

Let's assume I have my crunch under control for a second here, and focus on my actual request


I'm more looking for advice on playing a character who is a rogue who multiclasses into paladin.

Nightstalker is a beguiler who controls undead instead of people, how does that fit my backstory?

Can't find Religious Adept. Unless you meant the npc class Adept?

[The Random NPC]

The one you have is good, I'd just change a few things. Instead of getting caught, I'd have him just barely escape, and decide to dedicate his life to Good. This could have the added benefit of needing to keep his past a secret from his new order, or get thrown in jail for past crimes. Will he do the right thing when his past catches up to him or will he relapse to old habits?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The biggest pitfalls to avoid are you and your DM disagreeing on what exactly the paladin's code means, where the line between a minor violation and a gross violation is, and the meaning of both Lawful and Good.

After that, it's just a matter of not being a d-bag to the other players and trying to justify it as being required by your alignment/code. The code requires you act a certain way, it doesn't require that you try to force others to act that way, and alignment is determined by action. Your alignment does not determine what actions you can take.

If you and your DM can agree on those things, and you remember what I just said about the code and alignment, you shouldn't have any trouble.

As for actuall flavor: remember that characters live and die on character traits and quirks.

Also, since the point of the game is fun, don't be afraid to ham it up a little. Heroes can get monologues too. Just be sure you don't overdo it and annoy everyone.

Every paladin has strong convictions. They wouldn't be paladins if they didn't. Give some serious thought to what your character's particular convictions are, and in what order are their importance to him.

[Killer Angel]

I'm more looking for advice on playing a character who is a rogue who multiclasses into paladin.

Example:

Andre was born to the streets. Son of a hard-working and penny-pinching mother, he learned to use his wits and skill to survive, along with a decent strength advantage over the other kids. His potential for damage and intimidation landed him a job as a bodyguard and security for one of the local guild masters. All he had to do was look tough and keep quiet, and the boss would pay him well. It beat fighting for scraps in the back alleys, but the violence he visited on others broke his sainted mother's heart, and when he came to be arrested alongside his employer in a sting of those involved in illegal activites, Andre elected to have his sentence commuted in exchange for penance. He would work under a paladin of the Order of Illumination, and should his progress in learning the scriptures and training to be a knight of the order be anything less than exemplary, he would find himself in far worse than the local gaol. He would be cast into the pit of penance, a prisoner of the order.

That work for a guy who's a rogue/paladin multiclass?


That implies (to me) that he can't use his sneak attack, what with it being dishonorable, and needing to be near exalted good or get thrown in the pit of penance.
EDIT: Of course if you don't feel the same, it works pretty good. I personally would just say something containing the words "ends justify the means" and "pragmatic".
EDIT2: Sam Vimes is a great example of a rogue/paladin multiclass. He knows some rules need to be broken, but others can't even be bent, because it becomes too easy to break them when you shouldn't.

If we're going for motivations behind it and background, here's one (of a PC of mine, spoilered for lenght).

I've always been proud of my Father: Thorvald the Just, Judge of the Salty Sea and protector of the city of Memnon, Armed Servant of the Law in the name of St. Cuthbert.
"Our Country is Home to Heroes" ... so tells the first verse of an old ballad, and my father said that I had what it takes to do great things. In racing, I was always among the best: running, weight lifting, wrestling ... I was strong, agile and intelligent.
Then came the outbreak of Purple Whisper, so named because the breath is a gasp, and when your lips start to release purple bubbles of blood, then you know that nothing can save you.
My father laid his hands, and he used all his arts to combat the disease, and the day I got sick, he did not bother because I was strong and others had a more immediate need.
In the morning, after having visited, He said with a sympathetic smile (but firm) "Today, you can still wait," and so, as I became weaker and weaker, my father was curing our fellow countrymen.
In the end it was all over, but the disease had marked me: no more games, I would have difficulty beating a child in an arm wrestle, and I will always have a pale visage.
But this year, thanks to my father, no one died of Whisper in our city, and the day on which stood the most evil, he saved the miller's daughter (with whom I later lost my virginity), and then I defy anyone to say that was not accomplished the will of the Saint.
If my strength and my appearance, had left battered by the test, my talent and my skills remained intact (the Whisper does not affect the joints), so I could put them at the service of the Saint.
My father had a lot of knowledge, and when I was ready, he sent me to the school in the capital, where, after having passed the exam on my moral rectitude, by the Paladin Hagar (the former mentor of my Father), I perfected my techniques of infiltration.
Not always the objectives of the Gods can be attained merely by force or clerical power: sometimes you have to hit the enemy with its own weapons, using subterfuge, cunning and deception, where the light of the Saint fails to arrive, then justice must follow other paths.
The day that Hagar gave to me the Holy Mantle that identifies me as a True Follower of the Saint, also told me, "If you would face openly a Blackguard, you would not be brave, but stupid. Cuthbert has given you many gifts that you have to use: move in the shadows, strike without being seen, kill by stealth. Do not care about the evil or the fool who will accuse you of cowardice. The important thing is the reason why you do it."
And I said, "So, the end justifies the means?" And he, with the patience that only showed to his students, said: "That phrase is the excuse of those who, in fact, pursue their own interests and perform abhorrent actions for questionable purposes. Remember that we are acting in the name of The Saint, and that, in a land without law, we have to be judge, jury and executioner at the same time; your verdict, must be the same of the Saint... Help the needy, punish the guilty, be merciful, but never let pity obscure your judgment. "
So did I, so do I, and so I always do.

I don't think this rogue would have problems, multiclassing in a paladin, and evolving its personality in something less rigid.

[Sir_Chivalry]

The one you have is good, I'd just change a few things. Instead of getting caught, I'd have him just barely escape, and decide to dedicate his life to Good. This could have the added benefit of needing to keep his past a secret from his new order, or get thrown in jail for past crimes. Will he do the right thing when his past catches up to him or will he relapse to old habits?

That remains to be seen, but yes, I'll switch it to escaping capture.


The biggest pitfalls to avoid are you and your DM disagreeing on what exactly the paladin's code means, where the line between a minor violation and a gross violation is, and the meaning of both Lawful and Good.

After that, it's just a matter of not being a d-bag to the other players and trying to justify it as being required by your alignment/code. The code requires you act a certain way, it doesn't require that you try to force others to act that way, and alignment is determined by action. Your alignment does not determine what actions you can take.

If you and your DM can agree on those things, and you remember what I just said about the code and alignment, you shouldn't have any trouble.

As for actuall flavor: remember that characters live and die on character traits and quirks.

Also, since the point of the game is fun, don't be afraid to ham it up a little. Heroes can get monologues too. Just be sure you don't overdo it and annoy everyone.

Every paladin has strong convictions. They wouldn't be paladins if they didn't. Give some serious thought to what your character's particular convictions are, and in what order are their importance to him.

The DM and I will be drafting a code specific to the Order so that if I break it it makes sense to lose power.


If we're going for motivations behind it and background, here's one (of a PC of mine, spoilered for lenght).

I've always been proud of my Father: Thorvald the Just, Judge of the Salty Sea and protector of the city of Memnon, Armed Servant of the Law in the name of St. Cuthbert.
"Our Country is Home to Heroes" ... so tells the first verse of an old ballad, and my father said that I had what it takes to do great things. In racing, I was always among the best: running, weight lifting, wrestling ... I was strong, agile and intelligent.
Then came the outbreak of Purple Whisper, so named because the breath is a gasp, and when your lips start to release purple bubbles of blood, then you know that nothing can save you.
My father laid his hands, and he used all his arts to combat the disease, and the day I got sick, he did not bother because I was strong and others had a more immediate need.
In the morning, after having visited, He said with a sympathetic smile (but firm) "Today, you can still wait," and so, as I became weaker and weaker, my father was curing our fellow countrymen.
In the end it was all over, but the disease had marked me: no more games, I would have difficulty beating a child in an arm wrestle, and I will always have a pale visage.
But this year, thanks to my father, no one died of Whisper in our city, and the day on which stood the most evil, he saved the miller's daughter (with whom I later lost my virginity), and then I defy anyone to say that was not accomplished the will of the Saint.
If my strength and my appearance, had left battered by the test, my talent and my skills remained intact (the Whisper does not affect the joints), so I could put them at the service of the Saint.
My father had a lot of knowledge, and when I was ready, he sent me to the school in the capital, where, after having passed the exam on my moral rectitude, by the Paladin Hagar (the former mentor of my Father), I perfected my techniques of infiltration.
Not always the objectives of the Gods can be attained merely by force or clerical power: sometimes you have to hit the enemy with its own weapons, using subterfuge, cunning and deception, where the light of the Saint fails to arrive, then justice must follow other paths.
The day that Hagar gave to me the Holy Mantle that identifies me as a True Follower of the Saint, also told me, "If you would face openly a Blackguard, you would not be brave, but stupid. Cuthbert has given you many gifts that you have to use: move in the shadows, strike without being seen, kill by stealth. Do not care about the evil or the fool who will accuse you of cowardice. The important thing is the reason why you do it."
And I said, "So, the end justifies the means?" And he, with the patience that only showed to his students, said: "That phrase is the excuse of those who, in fact, pursue their own interests and perform abhorrent actions for questionable purposes. Remember that we are acting in the name of The Saint, and that, in a land without law, we have to be judge, jury and executioner at the same time; your verdict, must be the same of the Saint... Help the needy, punish the guilty, be merciful, but never let pity obscure your judgment. "
So did I, so do I, and so I always do.

I don't think this rogue would have problems, multiclassing in a paladin, and evolving its personality in something less rigid.

Well that makes my backstory look terrible:smallfrown:

Just kidding, that's an awesome story, I mean wow.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Custom code means you and the DM are on the same page, if that code lacks the perform an evil action clause it eliminates interaction with the alignment system which makes that a non-issue.

Cool. Now all you gotta do is remember not to be a stick-in-the-mud. The tips in my previous post should be helpful.

Do keep an eye on those stalkers. You know how shifty they can be. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

Just kidding, that's an awesome story, I mean wow.

Glad you like it. Feel free to cannibalize it, if there's something helpful. :smallwink:

[Thrythlind]

Weighing in late here, but I played a Paladin/Rogue in. PBEM for most of a year if not longer. Mechanically, she was also a rat hengeyokai, RPed as wererat with DM permission. The rest of the party thought she was a human rogue.

http://thrythlind.deviantart.com/art/Jhessail-Crackstone-Both-Forms-67363021z

When they first met her she was drunk and dancing on a table while singing about a backstory bit of tricking a vampire onto a sabotaged bridge so that he fell into running water.

I did some typical rogue things, such as collecting treasure without mentioning it to the party

reason: the jewelry in question had a family crest, so she was going to track down and return the items for no reward later, so she felt no need to tell the party. As a party we were being directed to investigate a problem and were getting paid, therefore treasure wasn't part of things. she also gave a small funeral service to the bodies she found the stuff on.

I used lay on hands in front of them, disguising it as a scented ointment.

I also smited in front of them with no comment (smite stats to DM in private). Used detect evil in abandon (again private to DM). And once shifted to human-rat form under a hooded cloak in the middle of a fight without attracting notice.

However. I never once lied or otherwise broke the paladin code. I simply did stuff with the assumption that nobody would ask about it. And nobody ever did. The other players told me they were surprised to learn her stats after the game slowed to a close.

Backstory of the character is that she was a true born wererat whose clan breached a sealed tomb resulting a war between shadows and wererats. Eventually this spilled into the streets and the local Kelemvorites moved to end the infestations. Jhessail, as a child in the final three way battle desperately tried to mimic the clerics and paladins she saw a d asked Kelemvor for help. Kelemvor answered briefly causing a phantom panther to destroy one undead threatening her before she passed out. Witnessing Kelemvorites collected her and took her in taking it as a sign. She was raised in the church but they trained her as a low key inquisitor (Divine Inquisitor Pal/Rog multiclass feat complete adventurer, complete divine or complete scoundrel) rather than a straight up warrior.

Her eventual goals (beyond the endless crusade against undead) was to purge the curse of communicability from her lycanthropy so that she could safely start a lawful clan devoted to Kelemvor without worrying about curse-based alignment devolution. See my discussion on D&D wererats: http://thrythlind.deviantart.com/art/Sociology-of-the-DnD-Wererat-67447811

It should be noted that the rogue class is as ideal for a cop as it is for a crook. Investigators, spies, scouts and thieves all fit under rogue. The official wotc multiclass feat for paladin/rogue says it all: Divine Inquisitor. There's also either a feat or divine spell that allows sneak attack to affect undead as if they were living.

As to the dishonor of sneak attacks. Paladins are allowed ambushes. When there are two enemies in open war such things are standard. In fact, in some cases I would do g a paladin for insisting on announcing their presence on the fact that it is dishonorable to place comrades (and whoever is being protected by this action) at risk simply to serve the paladin's pride. Metaphoric backstabbing, however, is frowned on.