Helm of Prot. Evil on Evil?

[SkyCaptain]

So, I'm having an argument with one of the members in my D&D group that I'm DMing.
The Voidmind Template from Monster manuel 3 {Scrubbed}
It lists that the masters of the voidmind can use dominate on the voidmind whenever they want. So the player decided to get around it by wearing a Helmet of Protection from Evil. I house-ruled that the master's dominate ignores this because that's kind of bull**** to get all of that for LA+1 with no drawback.

However, the question I'm asking is slightly different. He is an evil character. (and the Voidmind template says that most Voidminds are lawful evil). But what I'm asking is can an evil character even wear a Helmet of Protection from Evil? It seems strange is all.

[TuggyNE]

There's no particular reason it wouldn't work, although protection from good might be more useful. I have to ask, though, why you allowed Voidmind in the first place, and then house-ruled away one of the few ways the character can actually be a PC (as opposed to an NPC).

[Curmudgeon]

You list this "Helmet of Protection from Evil" in all caps like it's an actual item somewhere. However, I don't recall any such item in the game. Are you trying to solve a problem which exists only because of a completely bogus item? If so, just make the item go away; after all, you're the DM, so that's entirely your right.

[SkyCaptain]

I didn't ban anything in the campaign and just asked everyone to be reasonable. (silly me) It was irrelevant anyway because his masters were killed via backstory plotline so I could incorporate his character into the story better (His is a revenge tale)
The debate actually started as a result of a previous DM we both played with who was kind of a **** about it.

...you know, it never actually occurred to me to double-check that the items my players got actually existed as I allowed them complete creative freedom and access to whatever sourcebook they wanted as my only demand was a lot of flavor and story associated with their characters. Silly me for trusting my players. I guess someone is getting killed by a freak wave of honey badgers next session.
Thanks

[Spuddles]

Voidmind is actually LA+3. Crystalkeep is in error.

[HunterOfJello]

A helm with a constant effect of Protection from Evil isn't all that unrealistic. Many creatures have that spell on them as a constant effect and it's only a 1st level spell. Granted, it is an extremely powerful spell in some ways, but it was created as a 1st level spell and is forever in that category.

Letting any PC run around with the Voidmind template is the more unrealistic part of the story.

[TuggyNE]

Silly me for trusting my players. I guess someone is getting killed by a freak wave of honey badgers next session.
Thanks

A better solution might be to just remove the item in question and tell them you didn't notice initially, but in the future you'd prefer if they notify you of anything they have that requires DM approval (as all custom items technically do); note that this was less "illegal" and more "fuzzy and needs checking".


A helm with a constant effect of Protection from Evil isn't all that unrealistic. Many creatures have that spell on them as a constant effect and it's only a 1st level spell. Granted, it is an extremely powerful spell in some ways, but it was created as a 1st level spell and is forever in that category.

Letting any PC run around with the Voidmind template is the more unrealistic part of the story.

Quoted in full for truth.

Incidentally, house-ruling that protection from X/magic circle against X are a spell level higher might not be a bad idea. (Among other things, it increases the price of the custom item noticeably.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since MoI you can get an always on version of protection from X's mind control clause for a feat or two anyway (I can't remember if the planar ward needs to be bound for that effect or not), so that's not really a particularly overpowered item, but like curmudgeon said, there's no such item already printed.

I could see houseruling the creaters of the voidmind bypassing such protection though. If it weren't for that drawback, I'd imagine the voidmind's LA would be even higher, and on a fluff level, they've created a permanent, intrinsic, psionic connection to his brain. Of course, the psionic bit there is exactly why mechanically a prot X spell does work against it. It's a magical effect that grants ongoing control, exactly what prot x suppresses. Mindflayers have plenty of ways of getting a wayward thrall back under their control.

[Psyren]

Since MoI you can get an always on version of protection from X's mind control clause for a feat or two anyway (I can't remember if the planar ward needs to be bound for that effect or not),

It doesn't, so a single feat gets you compulsion-suppression.

And custom item or not, it's pretty fine to me that an evil character might be able to use protection from evil. There are plenty of undead/outsiders/etc. that don't discriminate, plus you have to worry about your own associates wanting to stab you in the back at some point too. ("And that makes us all one big happy family? Screw that." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)) Given that you're much less likely to see such an attack coming than you would vs. Good, keeping protection handy is only practical.

[Flickerdart]

Eh, I'd let it work.

The bigger issue is that a Voidmind is created by mind flayers, who are powerful creatures with lots of minions. They are very likely to send a few dozen to disabuse their pet of any notions of breaking their control.

[Answerer]

Of course Evil creatures can benefit from Protection from Evil, and it certainly makes sense that they might be worried about this – Evil creatures have a (very strong) tendency to fight amongst each other, after all.

Also, more importantly, the immunity to compulsions effect of Protection from Evil says nothing about alignment. Protection from Anything grants you immunity to compulsions, no matter the alignment of the source. It's the other two features (Deflection bonus, hedging out Outsiders) that are alignment-specific.

[Psyren]

Note however that the above was changed in Pathfinder - now Protection from X only suppresses compulsions that originate from X. (So make your Enchanters TN if possible.)

[SkyCaptain]

technically the item does exist as per item creation in the DMG pg285

It's just abhorrently underpriced for what it offers.

[Curmudgeon]

technically the item does exist as per item creation in the DMG pg285
Huh? No, that doesn't mean the item exists. It means it might be possible for someone to create a custom item with properties like that spell effect. However, unless a PC takes Craft Wondrous Item (or maybe Craft Magic Arms and Armor) and actually builds such a helmet, there's no reason to think a specific wearable item of the right size and with the desired magical property would already exist. As the DM, you get to decide those things.

[Answerer]

Don't magic items resize themselves anyway?

[Curmudgeon]

Don't magic items resize themselves anyway?

Armor and Weapon Sizes

Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100). A helmet is part of a suit of armor. Hats and other magic garments resize to fit; armor and weapons never do.

[Flickerdart]

Wait, so it's just as likely that you find a Large longsword as a Fine or Colossal+ one? That...doesn't seem right.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, so it's just as likely that you find a Large longsword as a Fine or Colossal+ one? That...doesn't seem right.

It kind of does. Creatures that are tiny or smaller will rarely have much use for the trappings of melee characters, while large and larger creatures that both produce spellcasters and require arms and armor are relatively rare. 90% of all magical armor and weapons being made by small and medium creatures makes plenty of sense. Their the ones that both need that kind of thing and have the capacity to produce it.

[Flickerdart]

It kind of does. Creatures that are tiny or smaller will rarely have much use for the trappings of melee characters, while large and larger creatures that both produce spellcasters and require arms and armor are relatively rare. 90% of all magical armor and weapons being made by small and medium creatures makes plenty of sense. Their the ones that both need that kind of thing and have the capacity to produce it.
Except there's a ton of creatures who are either Large natively or use Large weapons (through Powerful Build, Monkey Grip or Strongarm Bracers), while there are very few Fine and Colossal+ monsters.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Except there's a ton of creatures who are either Large natively or use Large weapons (through Powerful Build, Monkey Grip or Strongarm Bracers), while there are very few Fine and Colossal+ monsters.

There's a ton of large creatures, yes. There's not a ton of large creatures that use weapons, and amongst those there aren't many spellcasters. There are only about 3-4 races with powerful build.

I mean there're giants, some outsiders (though many of them are caster enough to eschew melee), and there's some monstrous humanoids or aberrations. Not much of that is going to want or need magic arms and armor, and few of those that do will be able to craft it.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait, so it's just as likely that you find a Large longsword as a Fine or Colossal+ one?
Well, no, since Colossal+ isn't an actual size. :smallamused:

Seriously, though, the DM has no RAW requirement to weight the distribution evenly in that 10% which is outside the Small-Medium size range. You're reading into this more than what is written.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any custom wondrous item based on a spell will always have a minimum caster level of 3rd, even if it's based on a 1st level spell.

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel), which should be identical to the post-errata DMG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) text:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem)

If an item requires Craft Wondrous Item to make, then the minimum caster level of that item is 3rd.

[Marnath]

Voidmind is actually LA+3. Crystalkeep is in error.

I'm honestly surprised that WOTC hasn't shut down that mirror site yet, considering that they nuked the original.