Two Weapon Fighter Confusion

[missmvicious]

So I'm making a two weapon fighter and I have a little bit of confusion. If a 12th lvl fighter has greater two weapon fighting how many attacks do they make if they are making a full attack?

I was under the impression you get multiple attacks if your base attack bonus is high enough. The 12th lvl fighter's BAB is +12/+7/+2 so that should mean that I fighter at lvl 12 should normally get 3 attacks in a full attack right?

Now if you add in the greater two weapon fighting feat which says "Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty." does that mean you get a fourth attack in a full attack?

:smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

A character with 12 BAB and the three TWF feats has the following attack routine:

Main hand: +10/+5/+0
Off-hand: +10/+5/+0

He would be making a total of six attacks.

[LTwerewolf]

It means you can attack three times with your mainhand, and 3 times with your offhand in a full attack action.

Edit: swordsaged :smallfrown:

[missmvicious]

A character with 12 BAB and the three TWF feats has the following attack routine:

Main hand: +10/+5/+0
Off-hand: +10/+5/+0

He would be making a total of six attacks.

*SQUEE* Okay so that is even more fantastically BAMF then I could have hoped for. Thank you.

[Flickerdart]

*SQUEE* Okay so that is even more fantastically BAMF then I could have hoped for. Thank you.
Keep in mind that you only get these on a full attack, meaning that you normally can't take more than a 5ft step and still make these attacks. The usual solution to that is 1 level of Barbarian using the Spirit Lion Totem alternate class feature from Complete Champion, but other solutions exist for moving and making a full attack in the same round.

[ericgrau]

You can also try things like greater weapon specialization, spell storing weapons and/or tripping to get more per hit effects on your attacks. Otherwise you may get more attacks but they add up to about the same damage as anything else or slightly less.

[missmvicious]

So what I have got so far for this is a two weapon fighter that uses sabers in each hand. Feats so far are : Two weapon fighting, oversized two weapon fighting, weapon focus, two weapon defense, weapon specialization, improved two weapon fighting, dual strike (Complete Adventurer), greater weapon focus, improved crit, melee weapon master -slashing (PHBII), greater two weapon fighting and greater weapon specialization. All the weapon specific stuff being on the sabers. Sound good?

[NineThePuma]

You have damage at least.

I think anyway, I haven't really looked at numbers.

[Flickerdart]

Consider putting something like Wounding on the sabres. While your damage output isn't spectacular, having all of your attacks take away Constitution will help against everything that Wounding affects.

[missmvicious]

If she picked up any ol two sabers in the game she'd do 1d6+9 per hit which isn't bad. I haven't looked at all about magic items but I will certainly keep wounding in mind. ;)

[LTwerewolf]

That's roughly 75 average damage (90 maximum). At that level against a lot of things it's not spectacular, so you'll want some on hit effects (like wounding as flicker mentioned) that do other effects as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If she picked up any ol two sabers in the game she'd do 1d6+9 per hit which isn't bad. I haven't looked at all about magic items but I will certainly keep wounding in mind. ;)

1d6+9 isn't great either. I strongly suggest you pick up power attack.

When using power attack, remember that nearly all the creatures in the MM have AC = CR +13, give or take a point or two.

You may also want to consider the tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer. The feat tax for entry is unpalatable for most high-op players, but for a fighter like that, it should be okay.

[Flickerdart]

At level 12, 1d6+9 is pretty bad. Even assuming all six attacks hit, you're doing 6d6+54 (average 75) damage, and chances are those +0 attacks won't be hitting any CR-appropriate foes.

Consider a level 12 Barbarian. Nothing fancy, just a Human. Starting strength is 16, which is achievable with any sane PB. By level 12, he has three stat boosts (STR 19), and at least a +4 magic item of Strength (STR 23). When he Rages, he has another +6 Strength, for a total of 29 (a +9 bonus).

Like any self-respecting Barbarian, ours will pick up a Greataxe. Two-handing the axe, he deals 1d12+13 damage. With his three attacks, he'll be doing 3d12+39 (average 64.5) damage. He can drop a single feat on Power Attack, channelling the same -2 you're taking on your Two-Weapon Fighting into his attacks. That adds +4 damage to each one (average 76.5). At this point, he's only spent one feat and is already outdoing you. He has five more feats and doesn't need to spend twice the money you do on weapon upgrades. And most people around here will laugh at this barbarian and call him weak, too.

[missmvicious]

That does look like a prestige class that interests me. And I really should shimmy in a power attack in there. With the feats boosting the attack bonuses with the sabers I could spare some of that for extra damage.

[missmvicious]

At level 12, 1d6+9 is pretty bad. Even assuming all six attacks hit, you're doing 6d6+54 (average 75) damage, and chances are those +0 attacks won't be hitting any CR-appropriate foes.

Consider a level 12 Barbarian. Nothing fancy, just a Human. Starting strength is 16, which is achievable with any sane PB. By level 12, he has three stat boosts (STR 19), and at least a +4 magic item of Strength (STR 23). When he Rages, he has another +6 Strength, for a total of 29 (a +9 bonus).

Like any self-respecting Barbarian, ours will pick up a Greataxe. Two-handing the axe, he deals 1d12+13 damage. With his three attacks, he'll be doing 3d12+39 (average 64.5) damage. He can drop a single feat on Power Attack, channelling the same -2 you're taking on your Two-Weapon Fighting into his attacks. That adds +4 damage to each one (average 76.5). At this point, he's only spent one feat and is already outdoing you. He has five more feats and doesn't need to spend twice the money you do on weapon upgrades. And most people around here will laugh at this barbarian and call him weak, too.

Part of this character build is about just the coolness of it. Also my crit range is 15-20 so the likelihood I double some of that damage is way better then his crit chance and considering I haven't added any magic, or even master work to my weapons I think its a good start. Oh and the -2 that I get from the two weapon fighting is pretty well negated.

[Flickerdart]

Switch the axe to the Greatsword, pick up Improved Critical, the crit range on the barbarian is now almost the same as yours, and his extra +3 from his Rage is better than the net +2 your feats get you. Plus, he can also take Weapon Focus. And again, he spends half as much as you do on his weapon (since you have to buy two) so he's ahead even more when you start adding magic weapons to the mix.

Your character might look cool, but there are better ways of building a two-weapon fighter.

[missmvicious]

Then taking the feats for two weapon fighting? :smallconfused:

[Medic!]

Don't forget that you only get 1/2 str bonus to damage with your offhand weapon.

I would probably take something like two-weapon rend from phb2 over power attack on a two-weapon fighter like that just to preserve some of your accuracy...plus it doesn't sound like power attack fits your theme very well (for whatever reason I'm seeing a fuhrer bradley from FMA lol...and in before "well he obviously power attacks because of the damage he inflicts")

If it fits your PC's theme, I'd take a peek at the Dervish PrC from Complete Warrior too. Some collaboration with your DM on refluffing would be in order (for example to see if he'd allow you to broaden the scope of the Slashing Blades class feature to include your sabres), and it might take some feat-changing (you could free up one feat by dropping oversized TWF if the above slashing blades change is OK'd). Or not, idk! But over-all if the PrC fits with your concept and your DM will allow some changes to make it fit more smoothly mechanically, you can balance out some base save bonuses, maintain your d10 HD and full BAB, and pick up some full-attack-with-movement capabilities and other nifty things. The whole idea right now just reinforces my fuhrer bradley mental image of him tearing apart greed in the sewers...


EDIT for Cynicism: Just be glad you haven't been inundated with "Go Two-handed fighting and change your build to a venerable dragonwrought kobold barb 1/sorc 2/wiz 1/swordsage 3/cleric 1/abjurant champion 4 with pounce and epic incarnum feats and UGH

[LTwerewolf]

Then taking the feats for two weapon fighting? :smallconfused:

Pretty sure he's saying drop the TWF and go THF instead, since you'll do quite a bit more damage with less effort. He's not even including things like leap attack or shock trooper for extra cheese.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Part of this character build is about just the coolness of it. Also my crit range is 15-20 so the likelihood I double some of that damage is way better then his crit chance and considering I haven't added any magic, or even master work to my weapons I think its a good start. Oh and the -2 that I get from the two weapon fighting is pretty well negated.

With TWF vs THF, each has its advantages in certain aspects, in a low-mid op setting.

Many, if not most, people on this forum are of the opinion that THF's smaller feat investment and better damage return make it outright better, though. This stems, in no small part, from the fact that prevailing opinion has one big hit being better than multiple smaller hits, which is in turn based on the idea of average damage being the end of the DPR story.

Mathematically the damage numbers on a full attack are similar until DR gets factored in, and DR other than X/magic is fairly rare. Then of course there's charging. THF unambiguously wins that round.

TWF, on the other hand, has the advantage in on-hit effects and crit fishing, and its DPR is much more stable than THF. The crit fisher's TWF might even get somewhat higher DPR than THF that ignores crits, for that matter, though this advantage is negated by crit-immune enemies. I haven't actually done the math on that though.

All in all, TWF is a higher investment for more stable damage, while THF gets bigger numbers but is less predictable.

IMO, the difference is pretty small on a fighter chassis, unless you're going high-op charging.

Of course, noone around here will ever advise you to take more than two levels of fighter either. :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then taking the feats for two weapon fighting? :smallconfused:

He's saying that TWF is much better for characters that rely on precision damage; such as rogues, ninjas, and scouts; than it is on a straight fighter or something similar.

[Flickerdart]

No, taking the feats for two-weapon fighting is fine. It's just all the other stuff you might not necessarily want. Hell, you don't even need precision damage or abandoning your fighting style in order to get better results.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS, Melee Weapon Mastery: You spent 5 feats on +4 to attack and +6 to damage. Two-Weapon Defense is another feat for +1 to AC. Oversized Weapon Fighting also just gets you about +2 damage extra on average, since you can replace the sabre with a kukri to avoid the penalties. You're making an enormous investment here, and getting back very little.

You need a ton of Dexterity to take the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Make use of it! Let's assume that at this point your Dexterity is 20 (since you need 19 for GTWF, that's not really a stretch). Weapon Finesse is +5 to hit. Shadow Blade is +5 to damage. Two levels (let's call it equivalent to a Fighter bonus feat since that's all they get in 2 levels) in Champion of Correlon Larethian is another +5. With the equivalent of three feats, we've exceeded both the to-hit and damage bonuses that you were getting with six feats.

[missmvicious]

Pretty sure he's saying drop the TWF and go THF instead, since you'll do quite a bit more damage with less effort. He's not even including things like leap attack or shock trooper for extra cheese.

I am totally going for the two weapon fighting. Even if its more work. Its the style I want.
I could technically move up to a d8 just by going with long sword but I don't because its the cool twirling sabers I want.

[missmvicious]

No, taking the feats for two-weapon fighting is fine. It's just all the other stuff you might not necessarily want. Hell, you don't even need precision damage or abandoning your fighting style in order to get better results.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS, Melee Weapon Mastery: You spent 5 feats on +4 to attack and +6 to damage. Two-Weapon Defense is another feat for +1 to AC. Oversized Weapon Fighting also just gets you about +2 damage extra on average, since you can replace the sabre with a kukri to avoid the penalties. You're making an enormous investment here, and getting back very little.

You need a ton of Dexterity to take the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Make use of it! Let's assume that at this point your Dexterity is 20 (since you need 19 for GTWF, that's not really a stretch). Weapon Finesse is +5 to hit. Shadow Blade is +5 to damage. Two levels (let's call it equivalent to a Fighter bonus feat since that's all they get in 2 levels) in Champion of Correlon Larethian is another +5. With the equivalent of three feats, we've exceeded both the to-hit and damage bonuses that you were getting with six feats.

Now I totally know what Shadow Blade and all that in the last paragraph means, but for anyone reading that doesn't why don't you explain those.

[Big Fau]

If she picked up any ol two sabers in the game she'd do 1d6+9 per hit which isn't bad. I haven't looked at all about magic items but I will certainly keep wounding in mind. ;)

That's actually very low at 12th level. Most things at your leve will have DR of some sort, making that 1d6+9 even lower, or completely negating your damage output. You are going to want to get some more damage on this character, likely through magic items. I second the call for the Wounding property, and would like to put forth Collision (a flat +5 damage boost), Force (+1d4 Force damage, nigh irresistible and sometimes bypasses all forms of DR), and Transmuting (ignores DR, in case the DM decides the Force enhancement doesn't do that all ready).

Consider dipping Rogue or Swordsage (especially the latter, as you can pick up Strikes, Boosts, and Stances that will help you immensely) for more damage. If you go Swordsage, grab the Assassin's Stance and pick up some Sneak Attack boosters (like the Scorpion Bracers from Secrets of Sarlona, or the Rogue's Vest in the MiC).

[NineThePuma]

Now I totally know what Shadow Blade and all that in the last paragraph means, but for anyone reading that doesn't why don't you explain those.

Subtle. :smallwink:

Shadowblade is a feat in Tome Of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (which is thought of quite fondly around these parts, but is not to everyone's taste). What it does is let you apply your Dexterity modifier to attacks with weapons that are finessable (or with a certain subset of weapons, all of which are finessable, ask your GM what he thinks is best).

Champion of Correlon Larethian is a prestige class in Races of the Wild. I don't remember the details of it off hand though.

[missmvicious]

That's actually very low at 12th level. Most things at your leve will have DR of some sort, making that 1d6+9 even lower, or completely negating your damage output. You are going to want to get some more damage on this character, likely through magic items. I second the call for the Wounding property, and would like to put forth Collision (a flat +5 damage boost), Force (+1d4 Force damage, nigh irresistible and sometimes bypasses all forms of DR), and Transmuting (ignores DR, in case the DM decides the Force enhancement doesn't do that all ready).

Consider dipping Rogue or Swordsage (especially the latter, as you can pick up Strikes, Boosts, and Stances that will help you immensely) for more damage. If you go Swordsage, grab the Assassin's Stance and pick up some Sneak Attack boosters (like the Scorpion Bracers from Secrets of Sarlona, or the Rogue's Vest in the MiC).

Yeah I'm not much of one for "dipping into" other classes. We play with the multiclass penalties.

[Flickerdart]

Now I totally know what Shadow Blade and all that in the last paragraph means, but for anyone reading that doesn't why don't you explain those.
Shadow Blade is a feat from Tome of Battle that adds Dexterity to damage. Champion of Corellon is a PrC from Races of the Wild that, among other things, lets you replace Strength to damage with Dexterity to damage. The lists don't overlap, but the Aptitude weapon property takes care of that.

Basically, the idea is that you want to pump one ability score as high as you can, then find ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) to apply that ability score to as many things as possible.

[missmvicious]

So let's see if I got this right since never opened Tome of Battle before. To take the Shadow Blade feat you must have one shadow hand stance which you can only get if you are a sword sage?

Gah its to bad Dervish Dance is PF that would have been actually perfect (as a saber is just a scimitar)

[Kelb_Panthera]

So let's see if I got this right since never opened Tome of Battle before. To take the Shadow Blade feat you must have one shadow hand stance which you can only get if you are a sword sage?

No, you can pick up maneuvers and stances with the feats martial stance and martial study.

You can also sub in shadow blade anywhere you would get weapon finesse as a bonus feat without prereq's, IIRC.

[missmvicious]

No, you can pick up maneuvers and stances with the feats martial stance and martial study.

You can also sub in shadow blade anywhere you would get weapon finesse as a bonus feat without prereq's, IIRC.

Now this is far more complex then I have ever gone with a character so you are gonna have to break that down more. Pretty much all of that went over my head.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So let's see if I got this right since never opened Tome of Battle before. To take the Shadow Blade feat you must have one shadow hand stance which you can only get if you are a sword sage?

Gah its to bad Dervish Dance is PF that would have been actually perfect (as a saber is just a scimitar)

I have no idea what PF's devish dance looks like, but there is a dervish class in one of the completes. It allows you to move and full attack at the same time several times per day, and the capstone doubles your attacks in a full attack 1/day.

[missmvicious]

I have no idea what PF's devish dance looks like, but there is a dervish class in one of the completes. It allows you to move and full attack at the same time several times per day, and the capstone doubles your attacks in a full attack 1/day.

The cliff notes that Flicker linked to on it didn't go into to much detail but it apparently adds dex to attack and damage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now this is far more complex then I have ever gone with a character so you are gonna have to break that down more. Pretty much all of that went over my head.

It's really not that hard.

Martial study is a feat that grants you one maneuver from the maneuvers section of ToB, as long as you meet its prerequisites. The feat itself has no prerequisites but is restricted to only being taken 3 times.

Martial stance requires martial study, and grants a character one stance from the maneuvers section of ToB, so long as he meets the prerequisites.

By taking martial study for a shadow hand maneuver, and martial stance for a shadow hand stance (assassin's stance is highly recommended) you then qualify for taking shadow blade.

Shadow blade's description has a clause about it counting as weapon finesse for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of other things. Since I don't recall the exact phrasing, and I don't have the book opened in front of me, I can't recall with certainty whether this allows you to pick up shadow blade in place of weapon finesse, if you would be granted weapon finesse as a bonus feat that you didn't have to qualify for, or not.

Is that clearer?

[missmvicious]

It's really not that hard.

Martial study is a feat that grants you one maneuver from the maneuvers section of ToB, as long as you meet its prerequisites. The feat itself has no prerequisites but is restricted to only being taken 3 times.

Martial stance requires martial study, and grants a character one stance from the maneuvers section of ToB, so long as he meets the prerequisites.

By taking martial study for a shadow hand maneuver, and martial stance for a shadow hand stance (assassin's stance is highly recommended) you then qualify for taking shadow blade.

Shadow blade's description has a clause about it counting as weapon finesse for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of other things. Since I don't recall the exact phrasing, and I don't have the book opened in front of me, I can't recall with certainty whether this allows you to pick up shadow blade in place of weapon finesse, if you would be granted weapon finesse as a bonus feat that you didn't have to qualify for, or not.

Is that clearer?

Its a bit more clear. Though its not easy when you first start getting into the more complex stuff, you just think its easier because you are used to it. Anyways so Martial stance does say that it requires "One martial maneuver." as a prerequisite. So how does one get that?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Its a bit more clear. Though its not easy when you first start getting into the more complex stuff, you just think its easier because you are used to it. Anyways so Martial stance does say that it requires "One martial maneuver." as a prerequisite. So how does one get that?

by taking martial study first.

PS: I do sometimes forget that my thoughts tend to be a little more complex than many peoples'. If you catch me doing it, feel free to say, "Hey kelb, you're being a dink again. Knock it off." :smalltongue:

[missmvicious]

by taking martial study first.

PS: I do sometimes forget that my thoughts tend to be a little more complex than many peoples'. If you catch me doing it, feel free to say, "Hey kelb, you're being a dink again. Knock it off." :smalltongue:

Lol everyone has that about subjects that they are knowledgeable in. I have been knitting since I was nine and I didn't realize how many complex knitting techniques I was taking for granted till I had to try to teach some teenagers the very basics.

[Medic!]

Yeah Dervish is in Complete Warrior for 3.5

It should also be noted (why do I keep having to be this guy? :smallfrown: ) that Shadow Blade only works if you're using a dagger, sai, shortsword, spiked chain, siangham, or unarmed strike.

EDIT: Of course, your DM could waive that :smallbiggrin:

[missmvicious]

Yeah Dervish is in Complete Warrior for 3.5

It should also be noted (why do I keep having to be this guy? :smallfrown: ) that Shadow Blade only works if you're using a dagger, sai, shortsword, spiked chain, siangham, or unarmed strike.

EDIT: Of course, your DM could waive that :smallbiggrin:

I like that you are being that guy. My DM likely wouldn't wave it so knowing that know is preferable. I play with a really really rules heavy group. Once while walking through the forest in the rain I think I got to move like 5ft per turn thanks to all the terrain rules the DM found. Our wold ended up infested with demons because we couldn't get to the place to seal a portal fast enough to stop it. Because we were stuck going a quarter of our move speed.

Also I dig the Bruce avatar.

[NineThePuma]

Yeah Dervish is in Complete Warrior for 3.5

It should also be noted (why do I keep having to be this guy? :smallfrown: ) that Shadow Blade only works if you're using a dagger, sai, shortsword, spiked chain, siangham, or unarmed strike.

EDIT: Of course, your DM could waive that :smallbiggrin:

Aptitude weapons (An enchant from Tome of Battle) let any weapon qualify as any other weapon for the purpose of specific qualifications. So Aptitude Kukri can benefit.

[missmvicious]

Hmm looking over the prestige class suggestions now. They all seem pretty good.

[Medic!]

Also I dig the Bruce avatar.

She gots taste! ha ha ha!

The Martial Study and Martial Stance feats from Tome of Battle are still very much worth looking into. They are both Fighter Bonus Feats, and there are some great maneuvers and stances out there. The quick and easy version of picking our maneuvers is:

If you aren't a class from Tome of Battle, divide your character level by 2. This gives you your initiator level.

Take your initiator level and look up the highest level of maneuver or stance you can learn on the "Initiator Level" chart in Tome of Battle.

Go reading through maneuvers until you see something you like, then make sure you meet the prerequisite for "Must know 1/2/3 maneuvers from this discipline" and viola, you got yourself some 1/encounter maneuvers, and all-the-time stance(s).

I would look heavily into the Tiger Claw discipline, especially the "mongoose" maneuvers. They're *awesome* on a two-weapon fighter.

Also Aptitude Weapons are a good point...it costs a +1 bonus, and would pay for itself. You'd get to use Shadow Blade to add your dex mod instead of str mod to damage while in a shadow hand stance, and since you have feats pertaining to your sabres anyway, you'd get an extra +1 atk/dmg with Aptitude sabres.

You are now an expert on Tome of Battle, go forth to your group, and spread the Good News!

[Kelb_Panthera]

I didn't bring it up before because of the apparent op level, but if ToB's on the table, you might consider Bloodclaw Master. It's a PrC that gets some pretty sweet TWF stuff, though it prefers that you use tigerclaw discipline weapons, specifically: unarmed strikes, claws, kukri, daggers, and maybe one more light weapon that I'm forgetting.

Getting the aptitude enhancement on your sabers could work around this, but as a DM I generally restrict that enhancement to the WF feat tree, so your DM may or may not let it fly. Even without the discipline weapons, the class features are still pretty nice, and tigerclaw is -the- TWF discipline for martial adepts.

If you're concerned about the notion that initiators feel too much like martial spellcasters though, feel free to disregard this post.


Martial adept & initiator = characters with levels in ToB classes and PrC's, or the martial study/stance feat(s).

Ninja'd.

Although, I'd swear up and down that shadow blade gets you dex to damage on top of strength, not instead of. I know for certain it was never erratta'd.

[missmvicious]

She gots taste! ha ha ha!

I have a passion for B horror films. :smallcool:


You are now an expert on Tome of Battle, go forth to your group, and spread the Good News!

Lols, me expert.

[Medic!]

I can really sympathize with going the extra mile for a cool concept...one of these days I will play a character that uses a seperate Fleshgrinding, Masterslaying weapon for each attack in a full TWF attack routine over the span of 5 rounds (so like...a bare minimum of what, 30 weapons at 32k each I think?) just because I want to turn something into a pin-cushion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have a passion for B horror films. :smallcool:



Lols, me expert.

Actually, if you can follow what he posted there, that's a pretty comprehensive breakdown of how ToB works for characters that aren't memebers of one of the book's classes.

I can really sympathize with going the extra mile for a cool concept...one of these days I will play a character that uses a seperate Fleshgrinding, Masterslaying weapon for each attack in a full TWF attack routine over the span of 5 rounds (so like...a bare minimum of what, 30 weapons at 32k each I think?) just because I want to turn something into a pin-cushion.

If you're okay with being a lawful character with a code, you might be able to pull that off without spending such a gods-awful amount of gold by being a kensai.

[ericgrau]

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS, Melee Weapon Mastery: You spent 5 feats on +4 to attack and +6 to damage. Two-Weapon Defense is another feat for +1 to AC. Oversized Weapon Fighting also just gets you about +2 damage extra on average, since you can replace the sabre with a kukri to avoid the penalties. You're making an enormous investment here, and getting back very little a ton.
FTFY. +4 to attack and +6 damage is precisely what makes MWM builds borderline overpowered (except vs truly OP stuff).

Take the 1d12+13 barbarian w/ str 23 (plus rage for 29). She attacks for 21/16/11 and 19.5 damage, or power attacks for 19/14/9 and 23.5 damage. Against 23 AC that's 1.8 hits for 42.3 damage.

The str 23 TWF fighter gets 1d6+12. She attacks for 20/20/15/15/10/10 and 15.5 damage. Against 23 AC that's 3.9 hits for 60.45 damage

Then we add in magic weapons and boots of speed to give the THF +2d6 damage and the TWF +1d6 damage plus the enhancement bonus. The barbarian is at 20/20/15/10 and 31.5 damage. That jumps him up to 89.8 damage per round. The TWFer is at 21/21/21/16/16/11/11 and 20 damage. That's 103 damage. But wait! We can power attack more for 18/18/13/8 and 35.5 damage. That yields 87.0 damage! Wait a second... Ya power attack is fairly useless by itself. Needs shocktrooper cheese.

At only 13 dpr more MWM may not seem spectacular here but normally TWF is a little behind THF. Next we add in spell storing and tripping or crits or etc. to take the per hit effects further.

The human fighter blew 9 feats so she has 4 remaining. The barbarian blew 1 feat so she has 5 remaining. With the pre-reqs and -10 greater TWF is a bit iffy. It is still good for about 8 dpr, but other options may be better. Quick draw dual strike (complete adventurer) may be handy to allow greatly exceed THF on single attacks.

But besides all that, it's really bad form to tell people they can't play the main concept they want to play. Unless it's so horrible it's unplayable rather than marginally worse or worse in a very high optimization environment, lay off. I mean adjustments are fine, just not overhauling while specifically saying not to do X. Nothing against you specifically, but telling people they always must use the most popular build is a poor fad that's been going on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

FTFY. +4 to attack and +6 damage is precisely what makes MWM builds borderline overpowered (except vs truly OP stuff).

Take the 1d12+13 barbarian w/ str 23 (plus rage for 29). She attacks for 21/16/11 and 19.5 damage, or power attacks for 19/14/9 and 23.5 damage. Against 23 AC that's 1.8 hits for 42.3 damage.

The str 23 TWF fighter gets 1d6+12. She attacks for 20/20/15/15/10/10 and 15.5 damage. Against 23 AC that's 3.9 hits for 60.45 damage

Then we add in magic weapons and boots of speed to give the THF +2d6 damage and the TWF +1d6 damage plus the enhancement bonus. The barbarian is at 20/20/15/10 and 31.5 damage. That jumps him up to 89.8 damage per round. The TWFer is at 21/21/21/16/16/11/11 and 20 damage. That's 103 damage. But wait! We can power attack more for 18/18/13/8 and 35.5 damage. That yields 87.0 damage! Wait a second... Ya power attack is fairly useless by itself.

At only 13 dpr more MWM may not seem spectacular here but normally TWF is a little behind THF. Next we add in spell storing and tripping or crits or etc. to take the per hit effects further.

The human fighter blew 9 feats so she has 4 remaining. The barbarian blew 1 feat so she has 5 remaining. With the pre-reqs and -10 greater TWF is a bit iffy. It is still good for about 8 dpr, but other options may be better. Quick draw may be handy to allow THF on single attacks.

But besides all that, it's really, really bad form to tell people they can't play the concept they want to play. Unless it's way beyond bad rather than marginally worse or worse in a very high optimization environment, lay off. I mean adjustments are fine, suggestions for things to add is fine, having ideas but no pressure against your current stuff is fine, but overhauling the entire style is something else.

+4 to attack and +6 to damage is nearly the same thing as improved rage, at +3 to attack and +4-5 to damage. Since finishing out the WF line to supremacy doesn't get another attack or damage boost (though I think it may get one or the other) the WF line is about the same as going straight barbarian and getting mighty rage.

It's certainly not overpowered. Not even by low-op standards.

When speaking about power attack, you have to remember that there's a point where increasing the damage and decreasing to-hit balance out to the highest possible damage. More power attack isn't always better, but a little is hardly ever worthless.

I do agree that telling someone they're "doing it wrong" if they go TWF is extremely rude though.

[ericgrau]

But without TWF you're also about 3 feats ahead. And greater rage is roughly +3/+4.5. Fighter vs. fighter it's +2 more. MWM is a lot for just 1 feat; 2-4 feats like that are what gets out of hand. People tend to underestimate a +1, but even if you grab a little here and there and get +4 bam that's 30% more damage. Even MWM by itself is ~20% more damage depending on level.

PA gets truly worthless at high level full attacks. I wouldn't take it at level 12 in any build without additional feats. People don't tend to realize that the crossover point is at about +0.5 damage per hit, because they don't see how much the penalties hurt and because most PA calculators only tell them to stop at say -3/+6. Then they think "+6" not "net +0.5 after losses".

[Kelb_Panthera]

But without TWF you're also about 3 feats ahead. And greater rage is roughly +3/+4.5. Fighter vs. fighter it's +2 more. MWM is a lot for just 1 feat; 2-4 feats like that are what gets out of hand. People tend to underestimate a +1, but even if you grab a little here and there and get +4 bam that's 30% more damage. Even MWM by itself is ~20% more damage depending on level.

MWM isn't one feat. It's the middle of the WF chain. +4 and +6 are the total from MWM, WF, WS, GWF, and GWS. That's 5 feats, not 1. By itself it's only +1 and +2.

[ericgrau]

Don't underestimate a +1, same reasoning. WF may have nothing on shocktrooper but it's just about the best core melee feat. The % boost to damage and the high level worthlessness of core PA due to the attack roll penalty show how much people don't notice attack bonus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't underestimate a +1, same reasoning. WF may have nothing on shocktrooper but it's just about the best core melee feat.

I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but I do agree that +1 isn't as worthless as many people seem to think. Especially in low-op.

[Lans]

Knowledge devotion maybe better than Weapon X

[Dusk Eclipse]

On a non-multiclassed fighter? I doubt that.

[hex0]

Oh lord...you are so close to getting Weapon Supremacy. Love that ridiculous feat.

I know you are set on using sabres or scimitars, but have you seen the Lightning Maces feat? :smallwink:

Is Dragon Mag allowed? I'd see if you could use the Kensai variant fighter for this. (Dragon #310), makes you a master in one weapon only.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Anyway, I know your group is playing with multiclass penalties, but a one-level dip into Barbarian, replacing the standard rage feature with Whirling Frenzy (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm)) and replacing Fast Movement with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion, p. 46) is pretty much the best conceivable thing you could do for your character, per investment-to-benefit ratio. A single level dip would get you one daily use of Whirling Frenzy (which at any optimization level will give you enough for one full encounter--just make it count), which gives you +4 Strengh (which equals +2 to-hit and damage), +2 AC, and +2 Reflex saves (as numerical bonuses go). Additionally, any time you make an full attack action while in rage, you can make a full attack at a -2 penalty (just remember that this penalty is offset by the +2 bonus to hit that this same ability just earned you) in order to make an extra attack at your highest bonus! Now, when you would normally be hitting for 1d6+9 six times, you are instead hitting for 1d6+11 seven times (an average difference of 25.5 damage), with all your attacks at the same to-hit bonus as before, except for the extra attack at your highest attack value!

The real winner of this one-level dip, however, is the Spirit Lion Totem, which gives you the pounce special ability at all times (even when not in rage). With pounce, you can make a full attack action at the tail end of a charge (which would include the full six or seven attacks in your routine). Now, instead of being limited to moving no more than five feet in any round in which you wish to fight with two weapons, you can now move up to twice your base move speed and attack anything within range of whatever you're charging; you are, no doubt, aware of how many combat options that extra mobility opens up for you, as you now have your cake and can eat it, too! Remember that all charges incur a -2 bonus to AC (which is offset by Whirlng Frenzy when you use it), and give you a +2 to hit, meaning that not only do you get to keep your same full-attack routine against the big bad 40 feet away, but all your attacks get a 10% better chance to hit for the doing!

More levels in Barbarian give you more uses of Whirling Frenzy (at a rate of one per every four levels), as well as the Extra Rage feat (at the much more favorable rate of two per feat, which can be taken multiple times). If you are Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Dwarf (or some other race with "Fighter", "Barbarian" or "any" as a favored class), you don't incur penalties for multiclassing (so long as you don't dip another class).

Another favored option of two-weapon fighters is the Dervish (Complete Warrior, p. 25). Among other things, Dervishes can make full attack actions while moving, so long as they move at least five feet between each attack in the doing, which gives you another option for mobility (one that is inferior to the Barbarian method for single opponents, but superior against multiple opponents). Getting in is feat-intensive, but if your DM will allow feat retraining (the rules for which are in the Player's Handbook II), I would suggest trading away Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Dervishes treat scimitars as light weapons for the purposes of multi-weapon fighting penalties, which does functionally the same thing; I assume you mean "scimitar" when you say "saber", as I am not aware of unique statistics for the latter, but if I am wrong, please let me know), Two-Weapon Defense (Combat Expertise is more modular), and Dual Strike (your full-round action just became mobile, so this becomes largely unnecessary) in order to get Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise (you already have Weapon Focus). The skills are trickier, but can be retrained as well (the rules are in the same chapter of the Player's Handbook II). If possible, ask your DM if you can trade Ride for Tumble (which is thematically better anyway) as per the Skilled City Dweller variant (Cityscape, web (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) if you haven't already done so, which will allow you to put ranks in Tumble more easily.

You do not suffer penalties for multiclassing when you take levels in a prestige class.

[JKTrickster]

You know if anything else, you can always use those Aptitude Kukris for Lightning Maces. :smallwink:

Jokes aside, I'm not sure a DM that enforces multiclass penalties (seriously now? :smallannoyed:) would allow all this optimization. I know it's bad to generalize, but people who are okay with multi-class penalties aren't exactly known to let you dumpster dive through the books to pick up whatever you want.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You know if anything else, you can always use those Aptitude Kukris for Lightning Maces. :smallwink:

Jokes aside, I'm not sure a DM that enforces multiclass penalties (seriously now? :smallannoyed:) would allow all this optimization. I know it's bad to generalize, but people who are okay with multi-class penalties aren't exactly known to let you dumpster dive through the books to pick up whatever you want.

Fortunately, thanks to the SRD, picking up every last one of those tricks requires a total of two splat books, and both of them are Completes (Champion and Warrior, respectively), which are invariably allowed (because the player has taken feats from Complete Adventurer). Retraining isn't an alien concept in any game, but if the DM wants a mechanic for it, Player's Handbook II is obviously allowed (the player has the feat Dual Strike from the same book). Ride for Tumble in Cityscape is just a matter of convenience. Further, no rules for multiclassing are broken thanks to the favored class mechanic, so it even conforms to the rules for this game as we yet understand them (the tricks aren't even game-breaking or anything, either; all I've mentioned is a way to get around the restrictions on stationary full attacks).

Assuming this addresses me.

[missmvicious]

You know if anything else, you can always use those Aptitude Kukris for Lightning Maces. :smallwink:

Jokes aside, I'm not sure a DM that enforces multiclass penalties (seriously now? :smallannoyed:) would allow all this optimization. I know it's bad to generalize, but people who are okay with multi-class penalties aren't exactly known to let you dumpster dive through the books to pick up whatever you want.

Bingo!

...................

[Keld Denar]

You may also want to consider the tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer. The feat tax for entry is unpalatable for most high-op players, but for a fighter like that, it should be okay.

Tempest actually makes you WORSE at TWFing. Possible? Sadly yes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tempest actually makes you WORSE at TWFing. Possible? Sadly yes.

How so?

without explanation I'll assume you mean it makes you worse at TWF than a number of other options.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Bingo!

...................

Have you asked?

[Keld Denar]

It requires a bunch of resources that give minimal returns. It encourages Spring Attacking, which doesn't really couple well with TWFing. A few other things. I've written rants on that PrC before, if you care to search for them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It requires a bunch of resources that give minimal returns. It encourages Spring Attacking, which doesn't really couple well with TWFing. A few other things. I've written rants on that PrC before, if you care to search for them.

The most extensive version I saw was on 07-01-2009 at 11:58am.

In a mid-high op scenario I'd agree with you.

However, the OP is rather obviously not in a high op game. The +2 to attack and +3 to AC are perfectly in line with what her character has been doing so far, and spring attack can be made viable.

If you have spring attack, combat reflexes, and robilard's gambit you can move through a group of enemies intentionally drawing AoO's from all but the one most likely to actually hit you and strike back with reprisals. Add the double strike feat from the mini's handbook and tempest's two-weapon spring attack and you get to strike each enemy twice. Even without double strike you still get to hit the most dangerous foe twice.

I realize that focus fire is generally better than spreading the attacks out, but there is something to be said for the cool factor of dashing through a pack of enemies and leaving them all bleeding, especially if you leave them literally bleeding, as in the bleeding condition that drains X hp/round until it's stopped.

Since it's a straight fighter chassis, and is likely to go back to fighter after tempest, this is perfectly doable.

In a more general sense, tempest isn't very good, but in this particular case I think it's fitting.

[missmvicious]

Have you asked?

I don't have to. I know my DM that well. Well enough you could almost say that we finish each others sandwiches.




I realize that focus fire is generally better than spreading the attacks out, but there is something to be said for the cool factor of dashing through a pack of enemies and leaving them all bleeding, especially if you leave them literally bleeding, as in the bleeding condition that drains X hp/round until it's stopped.



Its always nice when someone gets the point :smallsmile:

[only1doug]

There is a danger with a character focused on multiple low damage attacks (yes I am counting 1d6+9 as low damage) that they are unable to injure the big threats, We had a Dervish in our group who was an excellent Mook killer, and useless in combat against any single monster opponent as DR is subtracted from each attack.

This is why there are many suggestions for effects to add to your weapons, because when you hit something 6 times and it takes a maximum of 5 points from each attack (and minimum of 0) you want something else added in.

I'm going to hold back on my Mid Op suggestions as what you have said makes me think they wouldn't fly with your DM.


Good Luck and Have Fun

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is a danger with a character focused on multiple low damage attacks (yes I am counting 1d6+9 as low damage) that they are unable to injure the big threats, We had a Dervish in our group who was an excellent Mook killer, and useless in combat against any single monster opponent as DR is subtracted from each attack.

This is why there are many suggestions for effects to add to your weapons, because when you hit something 6 times and it takes a maximum of 5 points from each attack (and minimum of 0) you want something else added in.

I'm going to hold back on my Mid Op suggestions as what you have said makes me think they wouldn't fly with your DM.


Good Luck and Have Fun

This is why picking up PA is so important. If the multiple small attacks are proving ineffectual, she can sheath or drop one saber and start two-handing the other. Doing so will give her 1.5X her strength mod, but since the weapon is still a one-handed weapon it'll only get 1:1 from PA, but not taking the -2 means she'd have more room for the penalty. After the big toughy goes down, switch back to two weapons.

[Darius Kane]

Additionally, any time you make an full attack action while in rage, you can make a full attack at a -2 penalty (just remember that this penalty is offset by the +2 bonus to hit that this same ability just earned you) in order to make an extra attack at your highest bonus!
Whirling Frenzy doesn't specify a full attack. You can make that extra attack once per round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Unless explicity stated (like in Wolf Fang Strike) making more than 1 attack action requires a full round attack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Whirling Frenzy doesn't specify a full attack. You can make that extra attack once per round.

Between multiclassing xp penalties and the relative op level, I'd bet money that a whirl-pounce barbarian dip is completely out of the question here. Even just whirling frenzy or pounce would probably be a bit much.

[Alabenson]

My suggestion (assuming you can switch around your feats) would be first to drop Two-Weapon Defense and most of the Weapon Focus line; they're not helping you nearly as much as you think. To replace them, pick up Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, along with two Martial Study feats so you can pick up Sudden Leap (you need two because sudden leap has a 1 tiger claw prereq), and finally Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance).

Sudden Leap allows you to make a Jump as a free action, and Leaping Dragon Stance a) gives you a +10 bonus on Jump checks and more importantly b) allows you to treat a standing Jump as a running Jump. This means you can move as a free action 1/encounter, which in turn means you can full attack as part of a charge 1/encounter. Even better, because your movement is part of a jump, you're ignoring terrain issues that would stop a normal charger build. Slap valorous enchantments on both of your sabers, and you'll be ginsuing one opponent every fight.

I played a Psionic Warrior with a similiar build (TWF charger) and while you won't deal as much damage as a traditional THF build, after a certain point it really doesn't matter because the opponent is already dead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My suggestion (assuming you can switch around your feats) would be first to drop Two-Weapon Defense and most of the Weapon Focus line; they're not helping you nearly as much as you think. To replace them, pick up Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, along with two Martial Study feats so you can pick up Sudden Leap (you need two because sudden leap has a 1 tiger claw prereq), and finally Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance).

Sudden Leap allows you to make a Jump as a free action, and Leaping Dragon Stance a) gives you a +10 bonus on Jump checks and more importantly b) allows you to treat a standing Jump as a running Jump. This means you can move as a free action 1/encounter, which in turn means you can full attack as part of a charge 1/encounter. Even better, because your movement is part of a jump, you're ignoring terrain issues that would stop a normal charger build. Slap valorous enchantments on both of your sabers, and you'll be ginsuing one opponent every fight.

I played a Psionic Warrior with a similiar build (TWF charger) and while you won't deal as much damage as a traditional THF build, after a certain point it really doesn't matter because the opponent is already dead.

Sudden leap =/= pounce. You can make a full attack after moving with it, but there's no charge in there, so valorous weapon enhancement won't do squat.

This is otherwise solid mid-op advice, but I get the impression the OP plays in a low-op game. Moreover, it looks like ToB is something they either don't have or don't use ATM.

Fact is, nobody does TWF like a warblade. GTWF and raging mongoose used to delive the touch attacks from stormguard warrior followed by avalanche of blades.....

"ewww..... lookit the mess you made."

Works just as well the other way around.

[Darius Kane]

Unless explicity stated (like in Wolf Fang Strike) making more than 1 attack action requires a full round attack.
I don't think so. Rapid Shot has almost the same wording as Whirling Frenzy, but it specifically calls out a full attack action.

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
Was it an oversight or is it RAI? I dunno. But RAW you don't have to make a full attack to gain an extra attack from Whirling Frenzy. Otherwise all the feats and abilities that give extra attacks wouldn't have to specifically say that they can be used only in a full attack (and almost all of them do).



Between multiclassing xp penalties and the relative op level, I'd bet money that a whirl-pounce barbarian dip is completely out of the question here. Even just whirling frenzy or pounce would probably be a bit much.
I was just correcting Lonely Tylenol.

[IncoherentEssay]

... since the weapon is still a one-handed weapon it'll only get 1:1 from PA, ...

This is actually incorrect:
"Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.
" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)

On that note, if the OP were to use Great Scimitars* (Sandstorm) or other hand-and-a-half Exotic one handers as stand-ins for the sabers, she could have 2h power attack all the time through Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow**. Best of both worlds.

*which count as scimitars and can thus be finessed through Dervish, for example.

**yes, the wording can certainly be read as only granting the "treated as a two-handed weapon for power attack" when wielded with two hands, if one reads the abilities as connected instead of separate. But this results in a null ability. It is possible that the designer was mistaken as to how Power Attack works, but TWF could use the boost.

[ericgrau]

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

Normally extra attacks require a full attack unless they say so specifically.

Sometimes the writers are nice enough to tell you all relevant rules explicitly in the ability so you don't need to flip back and forth, but this is unfortunately uncommon in 1,000 different rules. And then when they are that nice, some player tries to exploit it and shoot for the fallacy of an argument by omission elsewhere :smallsigh:.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is actually incorrect:
"Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.
" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)

On that note, if the OP were to use Great Scimitars* (Sandstorm) or other hand-and-a-half Exotic one handers as stand-ins for the sabers, she could have 2h power attack all the time through Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow**. Best of both worlds.

*which count as scimitars and can thus be finessed through Dervish, for example.

**yes, the wording can certainly be read as only granting the "treated as a two-handed weapon for power attack" when wielded with two hands, if one reads the abilities as connected instead of separate. But this results in a null ability. It is possible that the designer was mistaken as to how Power Attack works, but TWF could use the boost.

I stand corrected on the PA thing, but picking up great scimitars is going to require yet another feat. A fighter gets many, but even fighters only get so many. Unless she decides to go dervish, picking up EWP probably isn't worth it. If she does go dervish then it -might- be worth it, if she can get her DM to give her 2:1 on PA. Given what she's said about him so far, I doubt he will though.

[IncoherentEssay]

It was more of an "instead of" rather than "in addition to" suggestion, PA + TWF + ITF + EWP + WF is only 5 feats and plenty good by itself. Melee Weapon Mastery is nice but not necessary.

Imo, the only reason Uncanny Blow is even debatable is because the two abilities are technically on the same line, making it possible (but not necessarily true) that the second is a sub-ability of the first. Since the actual in-book rules look like this:


Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic
melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus
the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage
equal to his Strength bonus ×2 instead of
his Strength bonus ×1-1/2. If he
has the Power Attack feat, he
treats the weapon as twohanded
for purposes
of determining his
bonus on damage
rolls.


i consider it much more likely that it was just crammed together to fit the SmugGnome art on the page, with no regard for how it affects the rules text itself :smalltongue:.

[Lans]

On a non-multiclassed fighter? I doubt that.

It bottoms out at +1 to hit and damage, with a roll of 16 those bonuses go to +2. Grab collector of stories skill trick from complete scoundrel giving you a +5 bonus once per encounter and over half the time your going to that +2 and an occasional+3

[Jarveiyan]

If Great Scimitars are covered under the scimitar heading for dervish you just nullified Uncanny Blow(dervishes consider scimitars light weapons and from what I understand you can't PA a light weapon). In fact if any other weapon is houseruled to work the same way you get the same result.

[kardar233]

**yes, the wording can certainly be read as only granting the "treated as a two-handed weapon for power attack" when wielded with two hands, if one reads the abilities as connected instead of separate. But this results in a null ability. It is possible that the designer was mistaken as to how Power Attack works, but TWF could use the boost.

While I've enjoyed the benefits of this ruling in the past, I'd say it's most likely that the designer forgot that two-handing a one-handed weapon still gives you x2 Power Attack returns.

Other point of contention is: being able to get THW Power Attack returns on TWF is worth taking 5 levels in an otherwise-mediocre PrC (Revenant Blade). Being able to get that in a 1-level dip with really only Weapon Focus as a feat tax (you'd probably want EWP:Dragonsplits anyway for a PA TWFer) might be a little much for some tables.

[toapat]

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