Odd Conundrum

[Kaustic]

Running as a Vow of Poverty Gestalt Druid//Totemist. Everything was going just fine and dandy, until, we reach a plane of existence where Lycanthropes inhabited the realm. I was attacked and bitten, and due to a series of my dice hating me, have been inflicted with Lycanthropy(from a Squirrel, go ahead, it's okay to laugh).

The Lycanthropy has sunk my two levels of Druid so that I am now at Druid 4/Lycanthrope 2//Totemist 6. This greatly hinders me as my Feat at 6th level was to be Natural Spell. The cure for the Lycanthropy is simple enough, and will work after the transformation if it occurs. My question is this, after we remove the Lycanthropy and I regain my two Druid Levels. In order to train out the feat I would pick up(Probably Imp. Natural Attack,) I would have to spend gold. Well, I'm on Vow of Poverty, would this break the Vow unintentionally?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Running as a Vow of Poverty Gestalt Druid//Totemist. Everything was going just fine and dandy, until, we reach a plane of existence where Lycanthropes inhabited the realm. I was attacked and bitten, and due to a series of my dice hating me, have been inflicted with Lycanthropy(from a Squirrel, go ahead, it's okay to laugh).

The Lycanthropy has sunk my two levels of Druid so that I am now at Druid 4/Lycanthrope 2//Totemist 6. This greatly hinders me as my Feat at 6th level was to be Natural Spell. The cure for the Lycanthropy is simple enough, and will work after the transformation if it occurs. My question is this, after we remove the Lycanthropy and I regain my two Druid Levels. In order to train out the feat I would pick up(Probably Imp. Natural Attack,) I would have to spend gold. Well, I'm on Vow of Poverty, would this break the Vow unintentionally?

Unless the fluff says you're paying someone to teach you, just use the supplemental rule in BoED that says you can burn 1xp for every 5gp in the cost.

Xp is a river, you'll never even miss those points.

On the topic of weresquirrel: Weresquirrels are no joke. Check this out. (http://www.egscomics.com) I wouldn't laugh at Grace anywhere she could hear me, unless she made a joke.

[nedz]

You should have had a choice as to which side was affected.

In any event, are you aware that you don't have to level up immediately when you gain xp ? So stay at level 5//5 until you dump the infection, and then take Druid 6 for Natural Spell.

Ed: curiously by delaying levelling up you may well end up with more xp this way, since you will be at a lower level for future challenges.
xp is a river, with eddies.

[BowStreetRunner]

Why are you losing any levels at all? There is no rule that says being afflicted with a template causes you to lose any levels. In fact, the 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) covers this pretty well, explaining that the point at which you accrue enough XP to gain your next level is just raised.

I think the idea of level loss from afflicted templates is a horrible house rule.

[Kaustic]

The way our DM runs somethings is a bit odd. He's running them a bit more like Bloodlines. Also the way he applies said Bloodlines, is that they always effect your Primary Class, it's a bit weird. We must take our Favored Class as our Primary Class and it must Always advance when we level, but Bloodlines and such will take effect over the Primary Class. So he is basically limiting the Gestalt from Bouncing PrC's off each side and only letting one side PrC out. He wonder's why everyone keeps playing a Human.

I didn't know if I could hold back leveling or not, if so, I would be currently Druid 4//Totemist 4, which isn't so bad. The cure is easy enough and works even after the Lycanthropy takes place. Just some Unicorn Blood, Drow hair, Nightshade, and Lycanthrope Blood.

[nedz]

You have two levels worth of xp ?
OK - then just level to 5//5 and go to 6//6 when you have the cure.
Then you can take the Druid feat and end up with possibly more xp rather than less.

[mattie_p]

In any event, are you aware that you don't have to level up immediately when you gain xp ? So stay at level 5//5 until you dump the infection, and then take Druid 6 for Natural Spell.

I'm afraid RAW disagrees with this, nedz.


Advancing a Level: When your character’s XP total reaches at least the minimum XP needed for a new character level (see Table 3–2), he or she "goes up a level."

There is nothing within the PHB that permits any PC to avoid gaining a level when sufficient xp has been earned.

[BowStreetRunner]

There is nothing within the PHB that permits any PC to avoid gaining a level when sufficient xp has been earned.

Technically, I believe you are correct. It's not in the PHB. It's on DMG p197, "How PCs Improve". And most DMs I have played with use some sort of training rule. So by avoiding training, you avoid leveling.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm afraid RAW disagrees with this, nedz.

There is nothing within the PHB that permits any PC to avoid gaining a level when sufficient xp has been earned.

Isn't there also a clause somewhere in the item creation feats?

[mattie_p]

Technically, I believe you are correct. It's not in the PHB. It's on DMG p197, "How PCs Improve". And most DMs I have played with use some sort of training rule. So by avoiding training, you avoid leveling.

PCs can avoid gaining a level by convincing their dm (ooc) to refrain awarding exp. Training is an optional rule and your experience is not mine, and will vary with dm. The page you cite refers to skills and feats, and not levels, regardless. Awarding exp starts on page 36 of the dmg, and is entirely within the purview of the dm.


Isn't there also a clause somewhere in the item creation feats?

You can, of course, spend exp on items before gaining a level (or in lieu of taking a level), abuse a thought bottle in a weird way, get level drained, among other things.

[nedz]

Read the next paragraph.

A character can only advance one level at a time.
Well this PC has broken that rule, but so what.

Next look at the Level Advancement section.
1st step is Choose Class.
7th step is Feats.
There is no time limit on these steps, so you can take as long as you like on Choosing your Skill Points, say (6th step). Especially since the rules in the DMG require 1 weeks training per skill point (DMG p196)

[mattie_p]

I don't want to minimize your point nedz, if the DM awards 2 levels of xp at once, they are breaking RAW, and have to deal with the consequences themselves. That said... presumably the PC has to complete the level advancement for the first awarded level before moving on to beginning the second level of advancement, otherwise they violate the rule you just cited.

The DMG on page 197 refers to optional rules:
In your campaign, however, you can require that a character can’t learn a new skill or feat that he hasn’t been exposed to.

One step further would be to require that a character have an instructor to teach him new skills and feats.

Not all DMs use these rules. Please note the sidebar at the bottom of page 171, near the start of chapter 6 (which is where the above rule is cited)
In contrast to the way the rest of the Dungeon Master’s Guide is structured, this chapter is composed of alternative rules, concepts, and ways of doing things. So, in this chapter, you won’t find variant rules set off in sidebars—the variant rules are actually the meat of the chapter.

RAW does not require training, individual DMs may, at their discretion, do so.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wait, squirrels are carnivores?! :smalleek:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, squirrels are carnivores?! :smalleek:

Omnivores, which lycanthropy also allows.

I'm also pretty sure that this must've been some sort of dire squirrel, otherwise the template has been applied illegally. Squirrels are diminutive and as such couldn't afflict even a small character. The OP would have to be tiny.

[nedz]

I don't want to minimize your point nedz, if the DM awards 2 levels of xp at once, they are breaking RAW, and have to deal with the consequences themselves. That said... presumably the PC has to complete the level advancement for the first awarded level before moving on to beginning the second level of advancement, otherwise they violate the rule you just cited.

The DMG on page 197 refers to optional rules:

Not all DMs use these rules. Please note the sidebar at the bottom of page 171, near the start of chapter 6 (which is where the above rule is cited)

RAW does not require training, individual DMs may, at their discretion, do so.

Yes.
I was just using the training rules to illustrate that these steps need not be instantaneous.

[mattie_p]

But my point still stands that, barring some very specific circumstances, none of which appear to apply to the OP, you cannot avoid the first step of "going up a level."

[kabreras]

His DM already broke so many rules by removing 2 legitimate levels from his class

[mattie_p]

Yeah, by making up so many rules the default answer here should be "Ask your DM."

[nedz]

But my point still stands that, barring some very specific circumstances, none of which appear to apply to the OP, you cannot avoid the first step of "going up a level."

But you can delay Step 7, Choosing a Feat, which is what we are trying to do here.

[mattie_p]

... If the dm is using those particular optional rules. Which is not yet determined. Frankly, with all the house rules in place I would not be surprised if that were the case.

We are also ignoring the animal hit die that the character gains as part of the curse, as well as the requirement that the animal must be within one size category of the base creature's size (human is medium, squirrel is tiny or diminutive).

With all of this, who really knows what he can or cannot do?

[nedz]

... If the dm is using those particular optional rules. Which is not yet determined. Frankly, with all the house rules in place I would not be surprised if that were the case.

No, the optional rules are not necessary. There is no time constraint on how long it takes you to level up. You just don't complete step 7 until you have fixed the Lycanthropy.


With all of this, who really knows what he can or cannot do?

Levelling up is possibly the most house-ruled part of the game, especially so in this game I suspect.

[mattie_p]

When the rules are vague, additional sources such as the Rules Compendium and/or the FAQ become essential sources to illuminate RAW. In this case:


Q: Can a character choose to delay a choice (such as spending skill points or selecting a feat) until a later level?

A: No. All choices regarding character advancement must be made as soon as they become available. You can’t save skill points from one level to another, nor can you delay selecting a feat from, say, 3rd level to 4th level.

That said, the retraining rules in PH2 allow you to adjust such decisions later in your career, which accomplishes a similar result.

While this is said in the context of saving the skill points and feats for another level, the answer is unequivocal that the skill points and feats must be used as soon as possible, and not saved for later, even within the same level.