Disciple of Dispator & Imp Crit

[Sponson]

Just a rules question.

Now Improved Critical from 3.5 states right in it's entry that it does not stack with anything that further increases crit-range. So in this case it is a specific rule that takes preference over the general rule - as things should be.

The Disciple of Dispator's Iron Power ruling states that the ability stacks specifically with Improved Critical. Another example of a specific rule that takes preference over another rule, but this is from a 3.0 source.

The reasoning is that because specifics overrule general, the DoD class at level 4 should triple the crit range of a weapon. However 3.5 is a newer source, therefore it takes precedence over older sources such as the BoVD, and as such DoD class would NOT take precedence over the 3.5 Improved Critical entry, and would not be allowed the x3 until 8th level.

How would you guys rule this? Would a Disciple of Dispator crit at twice the threat range, or triple threat range as a DoD4 w/ Imp Crit?

[eggs]

Doesn't it specifically say it works like keen? Keen doesn't stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, so the level 4 feature seems like a pretty straightforward "no."

The level 8 feature is specifically altering the way Keen works while contradicting the updated Improved Critical. That's where it gets more interesting.

EDIT: Forgot how that was phrased. At the time BoVD was written, Iron Power's stacking statement was wasn't anything more than a summary of how crit-stacking worked. The updated Improved Critical specifically changed those rules. Updates have to overwrite previously-written contradictions, or else they don't function as updates.

I would definitely say "updated; doesn't work"; specific does have to override general, but this discussion has to be taken in its context - a rules summary making no exceptions to what was then the default mechanic, which has since changed.

[Sponson]

Doesn't it specifically say it works like keen? Keen doesn't stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, so the level 4 feature seems like a pretty straightforward "no."

The level 8 feature is specifically altering the way Keen works while contradicting the updated Improved Critical. That's where it gets more interesting.

The keen part is the real bit isn't it? Keen says it won't stack with anything that improves the range of critical hits, just like Imp Crit. But it is not Keen, just keen-like. But it doesn't matter what it is, because it improves critical threat range. So the ability can stack with Imp Crit like it says, keen or not.

So having Iron Power means that it will stack with Imp Crit, but Imp Crit will not stack with a keen ability, which Iron Power is. But Iron Power specifically overwrites that clause.

[BowStreetRunner]

You pose an interesting question. The 3.0 version of Improved Critical states it stacks with Keen (no specific mention is given to any other effects that increase the threat range). The 3.5 version states it does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range.

Meanwhile, the BoVD reference for DoD states that the Iron Power ability does not stack with keen, but does stack with Improved Critical.

Note that at the time BoVD came out, IC and Keen were really the only options to expand the threat range of a weapon. By stating that it stacks with IC but not with Keen, the intent seems to be to prevent a 3rd stackable method. In effect, giving the DoD the Keen property on all his weapons. In fact, the specific wording of Iron Power is "his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon."

So I would rule that the power applies the Keen property and therefore does NOT stack with IC, as Keen and IC were nerfed by 3.5 to not stack. The additional text mentioning IC was more explanatory text describing the relationship between IC and Keen as they then existed, and not intended to make a specific exclusion for DoD.

[Sponson]

Thanks for the answer. I never would have guessed that they don't stack because the context of how the game applied crits in 3.0 was mechanically and situationally different than 3.5.

It's weird, because its a Knowledge (History) to determine the rules clause and not straight logic.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's weird, because its a Knowledge (History) to determine the rules clause and not straight logic.

It helps to have ranks in Profession (Rules Lawyer). :smallcool: