First-Time Warblade/Crusader BUild

[Enix18]

I'm working out a build for my first Tome of Battle character, and I was considering the following level progression: Warblade 7/Crusader 3/Eternal Blade 10

With 19 STR, 16 CON and CHA, and 15 DEX and INT, I feel like this is a workable build. My main concern is the balance between Warblade and Crusader levels, and the order in which I should take them. Would it make sense to take all seven Warblade levels first and then hop into Crusader to start with level 2 manoeuvres? Or is there a more effective progression?

This is my first time building a martial adept, so any advice you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.

[BowStreetRunner]

First question: what is your DM's position on XP penalty for multi-classing? This will have an impact on your decisions.

Second question: what is your DM's position on Half-elf qualifying as an elf for Eternal Blade? RAW half-elf does not meet the Elf prerequisite for the prestige class, but there is some debate about the matter among those who feel that RAI it should work.

[Enix18]

My DM is not applying any XP penalties for multiclassing.

My DM is allowing Half-Elves to qualify for the Eternal Blade.

[BowStreetRunner]

Okay, great. You should be okay with any elf or half-elf then (honestly, the half-elf only becomes preferable if the elf would take XP penalties).

Warblade and Crusader both benefit from having two levels in another class, as it allows you to pick up some higher-level stances that are otherwise difficult to acquire without taking Martial Stance as a feat. This is due to the fact that other classes count as 1/2 level for determining your initiator level. I always take even levels when multi-classing out of a martial adept class for this reason. So Warblade 2/Crusader 8 or Warblade 8/Crusader 2 would each give you 9 initiator levels in your primary Martial Adept class, and 6 initiator levels in your secondary Martial Adept Class. Primary 7/Secondary 3 nets you 8/6 IL whereas Primary 6/Secondary 4 nets you 8/7 IL.

EDIT: One other consideration is that some DMs insist that your first-level of a Martial Adept class you can only take level-1 stances. Read the description for Stances Known in each class and you will see what I mean. This can impact your decision about what level to take your first level in the secondary martial adept class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I prefer going Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 TBH; but if you use your Crusader to pick up some pre-req maneuvers for Devoted spirit that would work quite well.

I suggest being lawful so you can pick Aura of Perfect order and take 11 once per round.

[Answerer]

Why Warblade 7/Crusader 3? If you took another level of Warblade, you'd get 3rd-level maneuvers with your Crusader levels, which is quite nice.

[Person_Man]

If this is your first ToB character, I would suggest strait Warblade 20, Crusader 20, or Swordsage 20. There are some quirks to the rules and the style of play encouraged by each class and Discipline. Devoted Spirit and Crusader class abilities encourage defensive tanking and rapid use of maneuvers (because they automatically refill at random), Iron Heart and Warblade class features encourage Int/Str based and Power Attack combos, and Desert Wind/Setting Sun/Shadow Hand and Swordsage class features encourage mobility, counters, and hit and run tactics.

So before you jumble them together and try to cherry pick the best parts, you should try a few dry runs where you just run a Crusader as a Crusader or run a Warblade as a Warblade. This is particularly true if you intend to eventually use a odd duck PrC like Eternal Blade, which offers a jumble of Disciplines and Int to X bonuses, with no really big standout abilities until you get to it's amazing 20th level capstone.

[navar100]

There is a popular homebrew errata to Tome of Battle online since WOTC doesn't have one. Inquire with your DM if he will use it. If not, then it is important you take two crusader levels before you reach warblade level 4 else you won't get a 3rd level warblade stance. The stance progression for the adepts do not match when stances are available. It's the one real flaw of the book. The errata compensates this a bit.

[BowStreetRunner]

Another way to plan it is to look at the maneuvers/stances you would gain at each level and work out a progression that gives you the best options. The charts below show the maneuvers learned and stances learned at each level, along with the highest level of maneuver for that level. Note that an 'r' indicates you do not get a new maneuver, but you can replace an old maneuver with a new one.

Warblade 1-10
{table=head]Level|Class|Initiator Level|Maneuver Level|Maneuvers Learned|Stances Learned
1st|Warblade 1|
1|
1|
3|
1|
2nd|Warblade 2|
2|
1|
1|
0|
3rd|Warblade 3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
4th|Warblade 4|
4|
2|
r|
1|
5th|Warblade 5|
5|
3|
1|
0|
6th|Warblade 6|
6|
3|
r|
0|
7th|Warblade 7|
7|
4|
1|
0|
8th|Warblade 8|
8|
4|
r|
0|
9th|Warblade 9|
9|
5|
1|
0|
10th|Warblade 10|
10|
5|
r|
1
[/table]

Crusader 1-10
{table=head]Level|Class|Initiator Level|Maneuver Level|Maneuvers Learned|Stances Learned
1st|Crusader 1|
1|
1|
5|
1|
2nd|Crusader 2|
2|
1|
0|
1|
3rd|Crusader 3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
4th|Crusader 4|
4|
2|
r|
0|
5th|Crusader 5|
5|
3|
1|
0|
6th|Crusader 6|
6|
3|
r|
0|
7th|Crusader 7|
7|
4|
1|
0|
8th|Crusader 8|
8|
4|
r|
1|
9th|Crusader 9|
9|
5|
1|
0|
10th|Crusader 10|
10|
5|
r|
0
[/table]

Warblade 1-8 / Crusader 1-2
{table=head]Level|Class|Initiator Level|Maneuver Level|Maneuvers Learned|Stances Learned
1st|Warblade 1|
1|
1|
3|
1|
2nd|Warblade 2|
2|
1|
1|
0|
3rd|Warblade 3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
4th|Warblade 4|
4|
2|
r|
1|
5th|Warblade 5|
5|
3|
1|
0|
6th|Warblade 6|
6|
3|
r|
0|
7th|Warblade 7|
7|
4|
1|
0|
8th|Warblade 8|
8|
4|
r|
0|
9th|Crusader 1|
5|
3|
5|
1|
10th|Crusader 2|
6|
3|
0|
1
[/table]

Warblade 1-6 / Crusader 1-2 / Warblade 7-8
{table=head]Level|Class|Initiator Level|Maneuver Level|Maneuvers Learned|Stances Learned
1st|Warblade 1|
1|
1|
3|
1|
2nd|Warblade 2|
2|
1|
1|
0|
3rd|Warblade 3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
4th|Warblade 4|
4|
2|
r|
1|
5th|Warblade 5|
5|
3|
1|
0|
6th|Warblade 6|
6|
3|
r|
0|
7th|Crusader 1|
4|
2|
5|
1|
8th|Crusader 2|
5|
3|
0|
1|
9th|Warblade 7|
8|
4|
1|
0|
10th|Warblade 8|
9|
5|
r|
0
[/table]

[SamBurke]

I'm working out a build for my first Tome of Battle character, and I was considering the following level progression: Warblade 7/Crusader 3/Eternal Blade 10

With 19 STR, 16 CON and CHA, and 15 DEX and INT, I feel like this is a workable build. My main concern is the balance between Warblade and Crusader levels, and the order in which I should take them. Would it make sense to take all seven Warblade levels first and then hop into Crusader to start with level 2 manoeuvres? Or is there a more effective progression?

This is my first time building a martial adept, so any advice you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.

1. Your build exists.
2. Your build is entirely Tome of Battle.
3. Therefore, your build is amazing.

Further questions?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you trying to build an idiot crusader your first time out? :smallamused:

If not, I'd second the opinion that you should probably hold off on multiclassing martial adepts.

If you insist, here's a possible option:

Monk 2/ Warblade X/ Crusader Y/ Master of Nine 3/ Eternal blade 10

If X equals 2, then Y equals 3; or vice-versa depending on whether you prefer battle ardor or zealous surge. You reach IL's 17 and 18. The monk levels are to cover the bulk of MoN's prereq's via OA's monk bonus feats list.

[Darrin]

Monk 2/ Warblade X/ Crusader Y/ Master of Nine 3/ Eternal blade 10

If X equals 2, then Y equals 3; or vice-versa depending on whether you prefer battle ardor or zealous surge.

Eternal Blade won't work there, requires BAB +10 to qualify. I'd avoid mixing in Monk or Mo9 on your first ToB character. Monk just dilutes it (and anything it can do is much better accomplished via Unarmed Swordsage). Mo9 suffers from Candy Store Syndrome... OMG look at all those maneuvers I can get! but getting the 5-6 prereq feats required probably weakens your build more than if you'd just stuck with a more focused Warblade 20 or Crusader 20 build (where your feats actually support your maneuvers/combat style).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eternal Blade won't work there, requires BAB +10 to qualify. I'd avoid mixing in Monk or Mo9 on your first ToB character. Monk just dilutes it (and anything it can do is much better accomplished via Unarmed Swordsage). Mo9 suffers from Candy Store Syndrome... OMG look at all those maneuvers I can get! but getting the 5-6 prereq feats required probably weakens your build more than if you'd just stuck with a more focused Warblade 20 or Crusader 20 build (where your feats actually support your maneuvers/combat style).

Bah, I should do the math on these things before I suggest them.

What I suggested was an adaption of my own favorite ToB character build.

Monk 2/ Warblade 2/ Swordsage 4 / MoN 5/ (martial adept) 7

For those last 12 levels I split up MoN with either more swordsage or warblade levels, or one of the other martial adept PrC's.

My current build that I'm toying with is

Monk 2/ Ranger 2/ swordsage 3/ warblade 3/ Bloodclaw master 5/ MoN 5

Though obviously not in that order.

[Mari01]

How does half-elf not qualify for Eternal Blade?

[BowStreetRunner]

How does half-elf not qualify for Eternal Blade?

A prerequisite of the class is "Race: Elf".

Half-Elves have the racial ability "Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf."

A prerequisite is not an effect.

There are other prestige classes with the prerequisite "Race: Elf or Half-Elf" (i.e. Champion of Corellon Larethian) which further reinforces the idea that it was not intended that Half-Elves could qualify for this class.

Therefore, it would be a good idea to ask your DM before building a half-elf Eternal Blade, just to be sure he won't rule against it.

[navar100]

Eternal Blade won't work there, requires BAB +10 to qualify. I'd avoid mixing in Monk or Mo9 on your first ToB character. Monk just dilutes it (and anything it can do is much better accomplished via Unarmed Swordsage). Mo9 suffers from Candy Store Syndrome... OMG look at all those maneuvers I can get! but getting the 5-6 prereq feats required probably weakens your build more than if you'd just stuck with a more focused Warblade 20 or Crusader 20 build (where your feats actually support your maneuvers/combat style).

I played a crusader/swordsage/master of nine and was quite satisfied. My maneuvers were enough to be a bada$$. I'm sure there are feats that synergize well with maneuvers. You can't argue with Power Attack/Emerald Razor or Two-Weapon Fighting tree with Girallon Windmill Fleshrip boost accompanied by Time Stands Still. However, that feats would take a back pedal to maneuvers for a master of nine build is not an issue. Using swift action Shadow Blink and move action Shadow Stride to move 100 ft to use White Raven Hammer auto-hitting on an 11 in Aura of Perfect Order stance to stun, no save the bad guy for a round, plus some damage, is far more important and effective than worrying about Dodge as one of my feats. Tome of Battle is just that good. :smallsmile: