[PF] A good 3 person team.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I have a friend who wants to run a small team-based PVP tournament January. Characters will be level 10 and form up into teams of 3. Terrain for combat will vary from underground, to flat plains, to on Star Destroyers.

Restrictions are as follows.
- Players may all use the options available here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) except for creating custom races.
- Templates ≤ CR 1 are allowed (yes, even undead)
- 75,000 Gold on the items

Some ideas that my expected teammates have thrown out so far:
- Mounted Barbarian + Synthesis Summoner Super-mount
- Standard Melee Synthesis Summoner
- Some kind of undead spellcaster.
- Combining two summoners with a Cleric who has the glory domain (Sanctuary for 10 rounds as a domain power + infini summonings)

So yeah, any suggestions for what would make a good 3 person team in this situation, or some good templates to use.

[LTwerewolf]

Cleric, druid, and sorcerer. You have an answer for absolutely everything, and for this type of fight the sorcerer's spell choice won't be as much of an issue as amount of spells they can throw in a single fight.

Sorcerer is the dispel magic/counterspell monkey to stop them from their tricks.
Druid is the brunt force and control.
Cleric is the buffer and debuffer.

[jmelesky]

Sorcerer is the dispel magic/counterspell monkey to stop them from their tricks.

A Wizard specialized in Counterspell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/abjuration/counterspell) is probably a better bet.

And, frankly, I'm not sure three full casters at level 10 are going to be better off than a mixed group. This is PF, not 3.5, remember, and Paizo both nerfed a bunch of stuff that would make this a no-brainer in 3.5, as well as buffing melee classes.

For example, if you really want to shut down a caster, a Spellbreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/spellbreaker) Inquisitor with the Spellkiller Inquisition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/spellkiller-inquisition) might be a better bet. At 10th level, you're disrupting arcane spellcasters you threaten with a +6 to their concentration DC (+4 if they're divine), you're rolling twice for mind-affecting Saves, and you have a bonuses on a Saves for a couple of arcane schools. Add the right feat loadout and some swift-action, no-save spells like Litany of Sloth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-sloth), and you're locking down nearby casters as well as affecting the other enemy combatants. Make him or her human, of course, to get the extra spells.

Alternately, a Tetori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) Monk can lock down a caster pretty spectacularly, by being able to grapple across time and space. Well, at 10th level, they can negate freedom of movement, which is pretty impressive. Time and space come later, when they can dimensional anchor grappled foes and grapple the ethereal. Probably not the best choice in a team of three, but possibly great if you can optimize well and plan appropriately.

Getting a Barbarian with Spell Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/spell-sunder-su) is another way to go. Barbarians are normally very vulnerable to casting, but there are a bunch of tricks in PF to both mitigate that and make them deadly to casters.

Another monk alternative is a Greater Trip monk with Vicious Stomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vicious-stomp-combat). Get two AoOs every time you trip someone, and watch everyone get prone and stay prone really quickly. This also requires some serious tinkering and optimization to get right, though, so beware.

Replacing the druid with a Synthesist Summoner (or, really, any Summoner) would not go awry. Half-elf, to get two more evolution points. As a Synthesist, wade in like you would with a wildshaped druid in 3.5. As a non-Synthesist, send in your eidolon while staying back and casting buff and support spells.

A Bladebound Kensai Magus would be quite handy as a striker.

Avoid Fighter (better than 3.5, but still not great), Rogue (hard to guarantee sneak attack with only 3 on your team -- unless you go the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses route, though that could be rough), Paladin (not useful if your enemies aren't evil). Ranger can be tough, since you don't have a guarantee on the subtype of your opponents.

Your opponents will be humanoid-ish, as opposed to monsters, so that changes normal party tactics a bit. CMD becomes more targetable (trip and grapple, obviously, but disarm becomes really handy, and dirty trick is both very flexible and potentially crippling). Extraordinary effects like Intimidate morale checks become easy to achieve and deadly. Can you make a skill check at DC (20 + their Wisdom modifier)? Of course you can, so now your enemies do everything at -2. Deliver it en masse using Dazzling Display or Blistering Invective.

Consider giving your token defender the Antagonize feat. Give them some SR (with all the races available, there are plenty of opportunities) and force your opponents to attack or cast spells against your most resilient team member.

Sorry this turned into a ramble of scattered thoughts, but hopefully there's some useful bits in there.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I like those ideas. We were already joking that we could tell newer teams by who had a martial class in the party.

There are some people looking into a gunslinger build for the massive damage potential of that class. We already intend to outright ignore social and knowledge checks.

One concept I've been talking with someone else (I added it to the OP) is a Gorum Melee Cleric + 2 summoners/Summoner and Druid combo. I would first use the Glory domain power to cover us in sanctuary and allow the two to use their summoning spells to attack the enemy while I buff us. Then, if that didn't work, I would use the destruction domain power (+5 damage and crits auto confirm) and charge into melee with a keened/thundering falchion.

Any thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Summoner, Wizard, Oracle would be my pick. More than enough beef, all the spell power, superversatile, easy to make.

[Squirrel_Dude]

About the wizard suggestions, I still think that a sorcerer works better as a counter-speller because of the heighten spell metamagic feat requirement. Or at least, it would be an easier way to make sure that I had the proper spell to counter their spell with.

A wizard being able to counter-spell as an immediate action is nice, but you still have to have a higher level spell of the same school prepared. A Wizard simply won't have enough spells known or prepared to be able to keep up with a sorcerer or oracle at higher levels.


Am i missing something in this build though? If I did play a wizard and specialized, what schools should I give up in order to be a counter-spelling wizard? At the moment, I am looking into just letting the other two do a build and then simply building a counter-speller to cover our bases.

[Tokuhara]

A wildshape caster Druid (doubles as a melee type and a heavy-duty caster)
A Divine Strategist Cleric focused on crowd control and debuff/blasting
&
A WoP Spellslinger Wizard (blasphemy, I know), focusing on ray spells. Every spell that can be Selected can get the buffs of their gun's nice little bonuses.

[Eldariel]

Am i missing something in this build though? If I did play a wizard and specialized, what schools should I give up in order to be a counter-spelling wizard? At the moment, I am looking into just letting the other two do a build and then simply building a counter-speller to cover our bases.

The important thing is to trade up actions; trading Immediate for Standard is great, while trading Standard for Standard is an even trade at best. You both have the equal number of characters so the victory comes from breaking the action economy and doing more with the same number of turns. Remember, it's an option. You don't have to use it unless you want to.

Schools to give up? The usual, Evocation and Necromancy. Enchantment is probably fairly useful since Dominates are available and none of the heavy duty mind-affecting defenses are on the table yet (Dispel solves Protection from Evil-types and your whole team can Dispel).

[jaybird]

There are some people looking into a gunslinger build for the massive damage potential of that class. We already intend to outright ignore social and knowledge checks.


A Ninja with the Greater Invisibility trick and Amateur Gunslinger can do a crazy amount of SA damage with a Merciful gun - how does 8d6+10 SA four times a round on touch AC sound? :smalleek:

Regarding Sorc/Wiz, I'd go with Wizard simply for its better initiative optimization. Divination specialist Wizard gets 1/2 level to initiative, and as we all know, high level D&D is rocket tag.

If you want to specialize in Counterspell...I'd ban Evocation and Divination (if Divination is bannable). All the other schools have some brutal SoL effects that you really would want to counter, while Evocation's Reflex Half spells tend to not be particularly lethal unless optimized for.

One Wizard specialization you should look into are the Thassilonian Specialists - in particular, Sloth. You get TWO extra Conjuration slots per day, at the expense of not being able to cast Evocation and Illusion spells at all. Admittedly, you lose some of the better defensive buffs (Mirror Image and Displacement), but having two extra spells per day of your highest level is huge, especially for one of the best schools of magic.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The important thing is to trade up actions; trading Immediate for Standard is great, while trading Standard for Standard is an even trade at best. You both have the equal number of characters so the victory comes from breaking the action economy and doing more with the same number of turns. Remember, it's an option. You don't have to use it unless you want to.

Schools to give up? The usual, Evocation and Necromancy. Enchantment is probably fairly useful since Dominates are available and none of the heavy duty mind-affecting defenses are on the table yet (Dispel solves Protection from Evil-types and your whole team can Dispel).I was thinking that I would drop Illusion and something else, probably divination. I just don't trust the illusion school because they rely on people not meta-gaming, stealthy casting, and DM willing to do a lot of extra work for them to work against other players.

With all human/undead opponents Necromancy will be handy for slaying/debuffing the living and controlling the undead. Evocation has all the lovely force and wall spells.

Divination is probably the other one to give up as a wizard because I won't have time to scry in an arena style combat encounter with the other party, or are there spells I'm overlooking here?

[Eldariel]

I was thinking that I would drop Illusion and something else, probably divination. I just don't trust the illusion school because they rely on people not meta-gaming, stealthy casting, and DM willing to do a lot of extra work for them to work against other players.

Illusion has many good numeric spells too. Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. It's not just figments and images. Also, you don't let opponents know what you cast is an Illusion. You call it something else and maybe give DM a note saying it's actually an Illusion.

Also, some Illusions don't care about opponent metagaming; create illusionary darkness around an opponent for instance and unless they make the save they can't see through it no matter how much the player metagames. And you can just mimic some Summon-spells or some such. I personally would definitely keep it. Trust your creativity. Illusionary walls are much better than real ones if enemy believes in them since you can shoot and see through 'em.


With all human/undead opponents Necromancy will be handy for slaying/debuffing the living and controlling the undead. Evocation has all the lovely force and wall spells.

Slaying-effects are available anyways; Baleful Polymorph is a 5th level Fortitude Save or Die for instance. The big one you gain from Necro is Enervation. False Life can be cast for two slots at this point. Enervation, metamagicked sufficiently, can be great though. The question is if you'll have the metamagic to make that work. Also, dropping Enchantment isn't impossible here but Dominate Person is like to be very strong.

Evocation's Walls aren't sufficiently superior to Conjuration's Walls to make it worth your time. In fact, Wall of Stone is much more shapeable than Wall of Force for instance, and in PF a Force Wall is breakable too (and both take a lot of time to).

Command Undead is again a level 2 spell so you can afford to take an extra slot for it.


Divination is probably the other one to give up as a wizard because I won't have time to scry in an arena style combat encounter with the other party, or are there spells I'm overlooking here?

Effects like See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, True Seeing, etc. are very valuable. Also, if your enemy party e.g. uses Teleport to create distance, being able to Scry after them can be very valuable. To say nothing of if you choose to do so yourself.

If your other casters cover these effects, it's viable to drop Divination of course.