Stealthy Trapfinder

[BowStreetRunner]

I am trying to narrow down my options for building a stealthy character with the trapfinding ability. My goal is to achieve as high a score as is practicable in both Hide & Move Silently before applying magic. Vulnerability to Anti-Magic Field or Dispelling is an issue. So while I am aware of a large number of options out there for magical equipment and spells that would help, I am looking to maximize the non-magical bonuses first.

Character will be 15th level, campaign is expected to last into Epic levels. Sources allowed are almost all 3.5 books not setting-specific (i.e. no Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc.). Unearthed Arcana is banned.

So far the options I am considering are as follows. I obviously can't and won't use all of them, but

Whisper Gnome (+4 size bonus to Hide checks, +4 racial bonus to Hide & Move Silently checks) So far the best racial option I have found.
Feat: Stealthy (+2 untyped bonus to Hide & Move Silently checks)
Feat: Skill Focus - Hide (+3 untyped bonus to Hide checks)
Feat: Skill Focus - Move Silently (+3 untyped bonus to Move Silently checks
Equipment: Shadow Silk Armor (+2 untyped bonus to Hide & Move Silently checks)
Feat: Darkstalker - creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, termorsense must make listen or spot checks to detect you.

Rogue 10: Skill Mastery (used take 10 on Hide & Move Silently checks)
Rogue 12: Savvy Rogue (used to take 12 on Hide & Move Silently checks)

Ranger 13: Camouflage (used to Hide without cover or concealment in natural terrain)
Ranger 17: Hide in Plain Sight (used to Hide even while being observed in natural terrain)

Scout 8: Camouflage (used to Hide without cover or concealment in natural terrain)
Scout 14: Hide in Plain Sight (used to Hide even while being observed in natural terrain)

Factotum 1: Cunning Insight (used to give untyped bonus equal to class level to Hide or Move Silent checks once per day per skill)
Factotum 3: Brains over Brawn (Intelligence modifier as untyped bonus to Hide & Move Silently checks)

Exemplar 1 & 4: Skill Artistry (+4 competence bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks); Skill Mastery (used take 10 on Hide & Move Silently checks)

Rogue, Ranger (Trapfinding Variant), and Factotum appear to be the best class options, for different reasons.

The character does not need to be particular strong in combat. Avoiding combat and allowing the rest of the party to deal with it is certainly an option in this campaign. Any suggestions to help me narrow down a decent build would be helpful.

EDIT: I forgot to include Scout, so now my core class options appear to be Rogue, Ranger (Trapfinding Variant), Scout, and Factotum. All have Trapfinding plus Hide & Move Silently as class skills as well as special abilities that improve stealth. I have ruled out magical classes such as Beguiler as those don't generally satisfy my goal in situations where their magic is not available.

What I have still not fully considered is a build that may involve getting Trapfinding or special abilities primarily from prestige classes.

[mattie_p]

I'm glad you're looking at darkstalker, it is a really useful feat for stealthy characters. Ranger 17 gives Hide in Plain Sight way too late, you're better off with Shadowdancer 1, even with the feat tax (dodge and mobility). You can get it as early as ECL 8. Flaws will help if allowed.

Look at the dark ceature template, gives you HiPS at the cost of +1 LA, hopefully you are allowed to buy off, instead of Shadowdancer if permitted.

Sorry, missed that setting specific and UA are banned.

[BowStreetRunner]

No flaws. No level buyoff either. :smallfrown:

On the other hand, I might consider +1 LA if the benefits are good enough.

What I can't figure out is whether the Hide and Move Silently bonus from the Dark Creature template count as a Racial bonus. What would the total bonus be for a Dark Creature Whisper Gnome? Does the +8/+6 from the template take the place of the +4/+4 or does it become +12/+10?

[mattie_p]

It is additive, it adds to any racial bonus as it is untyped (and from a different source). Find the dark creature in Tome of Magic.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Dark Creature template is in Tome of Magic, which is neither setting-specific nor Unearthed Arcana, mattie_p, so it should be legal for this.

It also provides, if I recall, a +8 to Hide and +6 to Move Silently, which is just fantastic for what it is (that is, combined with Hide in Plain Sight).

EDIT: Swordsage'd pretty hard.

[mattie_p]

No worries. I always remember the FR dark template at the expense of ToM template. Fortunately I remembered in time. Should still be very useful for the OP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read this yet?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

[Psyren]

Do you have a source for competence bonuses to those two yet? If not, Incarnum can help, via Kruthik Claws or Worg Pelt.

[mattie_p]

See, now why does MoI constantly change the types of bonuses it gives?

There are perfectly good items, custom and otherwise, that give competence bonuses to skills. MoI gives a lot of insight and morale bonuses, slightly more rare in item form, except for hide and MS.

[Psyren]

See, now why does MoI constantly change the types of bonuses it gives?

There are perfectly good items, custom and otherwise, that give competence bonuses to skills. MoI gives a lot of insight and morale bonuses, slightly more rare in item form, except for hide and MS.

The two melds I listed are Totemist melds; as a rule of thumb, Totemist melds give Competence bonuses while Incarnate melds grant Insight. But there are no Incarnate melds that boost both Hide and MS; only Totemist melds boost both.

I agree with your point though, competence items are easier to come by.

[BowStreetRunner]

I can get +4 competence bonuses from Skill Artistry to both Hide and Move Silently with 4 levels of Exemplar. Skill Artistry is an Extraordinary ability. This 4-level dip would also yield Skill Mastery, a bonus feat and 8+INT skill points/level.

Totemist is a class I am not familiar with, although MoI is allowed. However, from a cursory reading I get the impression these soulmelds are magical effects, and would not satisfy my primary goal to get my bonus as high as possible without magic.

Once I'm done with the core build, I can always put Greater Silent Moves and Greater Shadow enhancements on my armor, but I want to get as much as possible without magical enhancement first.

[hex0]

Trapsmith (Dungeonscape) eats traps for breakfast. Literally. Plus awesome spells.

I second going for Shadowdancer for HIPS.

[Psyren]

Approaching Incarnum from a different angle, Umbral Disciple gets HiPS with less feat investment than Shadowdancer. It also gives you essentia that you can put to other uses, such as a boost to a UMD check via Mage's Spectacles.

[BowStreetRunner]

Maybe I'm missing something, as I have never used any of the MoI classes before. But my impression is that these are all magical effects. Let me explain why I am trying to avoid these.

My DM has a frequent habit of having a Greater Dispel effect that triggers whenever a character enters a key building. He uses this a lot. In my experience, his Greater Dispel has been able to take down spells with a DC as high as 32, although 28 would be more of an average roll for him.

We have also encountered Anti-Magic Field effects. And I expect these to increase as the CR of our encounters continues to increase.

I need a character who can pass through these effects - Greater Dispel or Anti-Magic Field - and still avoid detection. So Magic Items, Spells, Spell-Like Abilities and Supernatural Abilities are out. If I am going to be sneaking into places using these defenses, I will need to be able to stay hidden without the aid of magic of any kind.

[Psyren]

Is your DM applying dispel rules appropriately? Area dispels don't do anything to magic items (or to soulmelds.) Even a targeted dispel has to specifically target the item/meld in question (i.e. he can't simply target you - he has to target your Boots of Elvenkind or your Worg Pelt etc., and nothing else.) Finally, even if he does do that, the item or meld in question is then merely suppressed for 1d4 rounds.

But in any event, that doesn't apply to Umbral Disciple. His HiPs is supernatural and thus cannot be dispelled.


The AMF is a different matter - in that case, you'd want as much extraordinary hiding as possible. The magic options are low-hanging fruit though.

[BowStreetRunner]

His HiPs is supernatural and thus cannot be dispelled.

Ugh! When did they change that? The chart on page 290 of my DMG says supernatural abilities CAN be dispelled. But when I look at the SRD online it says they cannot.

[Psyren]

Ugh! When did they change that? The chart on page 290 of my DMG says supernatural abilities CAN be dispelled. But when I look at the SRD online it says they cannot.

That one got updated in two different places: ToM pg. 139 (explicitly supercedes DMG 290), and of course Rules Compendium 119, which supercedes both.

[BowStreetRunner]

That one got updated in two different places: ToM pg. 139 (explicitly supercedes DMG 290), and of course Rules Compendium 119, which supercedes both.

Okay, so then my priorities are Extraordinary is preferred, then Supernatural, and I will consider Spells and SLAs only as icing on the cake.

[Person_Man]

I'm a well known proponent for Magic of Incarnum, and there are a bunch of ways you could work it into your build if that's the way you want to go. But it's not great at high or Epic levels. (Though the Feat options can be amazing, depending on how your DM reads it).

Paladin 6 using the Gnome Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level (Champions of Valor web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)). It grants you Hide and Move Silently as class Skills and Hide in Plain Site at 6th level. This would work well with a Whisper Gnome (which has a racial and size bonuses to stealth). And Paladin actually has a lot of useful alternate class features and substitution levels out there, and if your DM is nice he'll let you trade out abilities freely (rather then being limited by specific fluff). In particular, if your DM allows you to take the Leadership feat for a special mount (which is specifically outlined in the DMG) like a Medium Dragon, then you could do plenty of cool things. Though pretty much anything you do will be Tier 4ish.

There's also a way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) to get it via 1 level of Warlock or Dargonfire Adept and the Blend Into Shadows feat (Drow of Underdark). High level Dragonfire Adepts are pretty straitforward blasters with some nifty tricks.

Anything that grant you access to Wildshape/Alter Self/Polymorph etc would work well, since lots of animals have size and racial bonuses to various Skills, and will always have potent high level options. Wildshape Ranger in particular is a nice Tier 3, full BAB, Skillful choice. And you could always PrC into one of the many Wildshape oriented PrC.

Binder 13 (with the Improved Binder feat) gives you access to the Marchosias vestige grants pretty big bonuses and assassin abilities.

[hex0]

Or course if you put some levels into spellthief (preferably Trickster Spellthief, if available) and take the Master Spellthief feat, your caster level will be so high it would be hard to dispel your stuff.