Make Paladins Wet Their Pants and Undead Scream In Terror

[Jeff the Green]

So, I'm running an encounter for my group right now that involves an evil cleric, and as I was looking up spells for him (the ones in the original module would have made him a pushover), I came across blade of pain and fear in the Spell Compendium. This is what the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) has to say about it:


Hmm. You need to make a touch attack, which causes damage. If the enemy gets hit, they have to make a Will Save or be frightened for 1d4 rounds. But, if you use a Dreadful Wrath, they are panicked for one minute. That’s nice. But, why not make it a Fell Frightening Blade of Pain and Fear? You hit them, they take damage, then they become shaken for one minute (no save), then they make a save (at -2, thanks to being shaken), and if they fail, then they are frightened. Another save, and they are panicked. For a minute. And if they make the save, hit them again. It’s a pity it’s an evocation. Still, all in all, it’s an excellent spell.

I think Caedrus might even have been underestimating its power. See, it's an Evocation. And not [mind-affecting]. Not even [fear]!

Am I wrong in thinking that that means you can make a Paladin or even a zombie run away with this?

[Flickerdart]

The spell itself isn't [Fear] because it creates a blade of magical energy. Fear effects, however, are still fear effects.

[Jeff the Green]

Where does it say that? That's my instinctive response, but everything I've previously seen that causes shaken/frightened/panicked specifies that it's a mind-affecting fear effect, and I can't find a rule saying that shaken/frightened/panicked automatically makes something a fear effect.

[Flickerdart]

All the fear conditions are explicitly described as being states of fear. There is zero RAW or RAI support that a Paladin who is immune to fear is not actually immune to fear.

[Jeff the Green]

Okay, I misread the Aura of Courage. Paladins are immune. Are undead likewise? And does the Aura of Courage's +4 to allies' saves apply?

[Ammutseba]

Yes, undead are likewise immune. Yes, the aura's +4 still applies.

However, if you really want to do this, can you just make the cleric a dread witch? I know it's practically the inevitable response, but it actually seems like in your case, it directly applies.

[Jeff the Green]

Yes, undead are likewise immune. Yes, the aura's +4 still applies.

However, if you really want to do this, can you just make the cleric a dread witch? I know it's practically the inevitable response, but it actually seems like in your case, it directly applies.

Why? I'm not trying to be an ass, just to figure out where my reasoning is wrong

It's mostly academic, now, since the cleric is about to die and he isn't attacking a paladin in the first place. Clerics also have a hard time getting into Dread Witch, though.

[Ammutseba]

Why? I'm not trying to be an ass, just to figure out where my reasoning is wrong

It's mostly academic, now, since the cleric is about to die and he isn't attacking a paladin in the first place. Clerics also have a hard time getting into Dread Witch, though.

I'm just trying to find a way to make this an option for you. Me, myself, I try to find a way to make memorable encounters out of anything I can, and I thought you might, too. If the cleric's really not important, though, then it's no big deal to me.

I checked into it, though. If your cleric dips 1 level of dread necromancer and takes versatile spellcaster (which does make this include a bit of grated parmesan, I suppose), then he can start taking dread witch levels as soon as level 3, making this a viable option if your campaign is ECL 6 or greater.

[Starbuck_II]

All the fear conditions are explicitly described as being states of fear. There is zero RAW or RAI support that a Paladin who is immune to fear is not actually immune to fear.

Except the Dread Witch bypasses Immunity to fear.
... your fear spells are now so potent that they can even affect creatures normally immune to fear, such as paladins, although the subject still gains a saving throw to resist the spell’s effect"

[Ammutseba]

Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were asking "why?" about. It was about why even though BoPaF isn't a fear effect it still doesn't overcome the paladin's or the undeads' immunity to fear, right?

If it is, that information is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear

Even if a spell itself isn't [fear], if it causes shaken, frightened or panicked, those conditions are fear effects, so things which are immune are still immune.

[eggs]

Why? I'm not trying to be an ass, just to figure out where my reasoning is wrong

"All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear)

[Jeff the Green]

Right, I read that before I posted. I don't see how you get this:

Even if a spell itself isn't [fear], if it causes shaken, frightened or panicked, those conditions are fear effects, so things which are immune are still immune.
from this:

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Nowhere does it say that anything causing shaken/frightened/panicked is automatically a fear effect. The fact that cause fear and scare explicitly say that they're mind-affecting fear effects suggests otherwise, actually.

Edit:

"All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear)
I read that as referring to the specific attacks ("Fear Aura," "Fear Cones and Rays," and "Frightful Presence") later in the entry.

[Ammutseba]

Nowhere does it say that anything causing shaken/frightened/panicked is automatically a fear effect. The fact that cause fear and scare explicitly say that they're mind-affecting fear effects suggests otherwise, actually.

Although you're right that the passage does not explicitly state the phrase "effects that cause the shaken, frightened and panicked conditions are fear effects," the passage does state that fear effects are cumulative, and then go on to explain exactly what that means, citing those same conditions. These are not separate statements (or else they would be in separate paragraphs), so those conditions must be fear effects.

Edit: Furthermore, the following apply:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken

Each of those entries states explicitly that the condition is a state of fear, and links back to the passage on fear itself.

[eggs]

I read that as referring to the specific attacks ("Fear Aura," "Fear Cones and Rays," and "Frightful Presence") later in the entry.
It's a very simple unqualified statement, clearly mirrored by the fiction relating to the abilities. You can say it means something other than what it says, but it's an obvious stretch.

[Jeff the Green]

Although you're right that the passage does not explicitly state the phrase "effects that cause the shaken, frightened and panicked conditions are fear effects," the passage does state that fear effects are cumulative, and then go on to explain exactly what that means, citing those same conditions. These are not separate statements (or else they would be in separate paragraphs), so those conditions must be fear effects.

Edit: Furthermore, the following apply:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken

Each of those entries states explicitly that the condition is a state of fear, and links back to the passage on fear itself.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. :smallsmile: